Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Jeez talk about kooky tin-foil hat! ;)



I got shot down when I even mentioned the consiracy to profile everyone as supported by the EVIDENCE here!

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...topic.php?5080




But getting back to the "minor" matter of Phormscum, even you must appreciate peoples absolute horror of having the Intra-ISP Spyware parasite installed at the connection entry point of the Internet... At least with the likes of Double-click and Google we have a chance of escaping their predacious stalking/profiling... With Phorm at the starting gate there is no escape.

Simon whatever you do now you will be damned unless Phorm is completely destroyed and you come back with some clever post-analysis explanation of your privacy stratergy. How did you ever put yourself in this most unenviable position, surely if you didn't have to provide yourself a living and had enough money to be completely independent you would be on this side of the line attacking Phorm for the **** malware parasite that they are. :(

Are you going to "Opt-in" when Phorm is available on your home Internet provider?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@OldBear.
Yup, I'm a BT user/poster from there myself but more or less gave up following the closure of the 1st 2 threads. The mention of Phorm/Webwise was actualluy in a newish thread which had nothing to do with this subject at all. Folk were complaining/discussing another aspect of their "service" with which they were not satisfied and Phorm came up as an added future possible bugbear.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Add to this Video of the public meeting in the hands of Phorm and not released as promised.

Only videos we know of online website hacked by Russian scriptors malicious script placed so anyone visiting had a iframe ( which is what phorm uses to hijack the conection) used to download a redirect for more molicious script to download in the background.

80/20 report delayed.

Infact the best for all is the plug be pulled on all this, Simon from 80/20 revist everyones worries and take a second look at our security which phorm cannot give with Kent and russian scriptors.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hey Pete another one for the 'Phorm vs Google' debate over on BadPhorm.

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...topic.php?5233



Google is a predator
Phorm is a parasite

We are victims

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh, I never saw that, so thanks for the info, mate; I'll go and have a shuftie.

Mind you, if it's like it's always been the thread will get removed, so I best be quick.

A Plan of Action
 

Write to your MP
Write to your ISP: Virgin Media; BT; TalkTalk
Write to your EU representative
Sign the Downing Street petition
Serve a section 11 Data Protection Notice on your ISP
Watch this
Read this
Go here for a summary
BT, Virgin Media and Talk Talk ISP addresses
Sample letters

Spread the word on the web and ask everyone you know to do the same.

And if you are lurking, please sign up and get stuck in!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hmmm
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...ding/comments/
"
Phorm allowed into the 'Anti-Phishing Working Group'

By phormwatch
Posted Saturday 3rd May 2008 19:59 GMT
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/05/33.png You're not going to believe this, but the APWG:
http://www.antiphishing.org/index.html
Has allowed Phorm to join their ranks, as you can see here:

http://www.antiphishing.org/sponsors.html
I suggest people write to the APWG and 'inphorm' them about Phorms background and illegal activities:
http://www.antiphishing.org/contactus.html
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

One question I raised earlier - is there a contractual commitment to place the PIA in the public domain, or does 80/20's remit end once the PIA is handed over to Phorm? (As you can guess, this concern follows on from what happened with the video).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I suspect the PIA belongs to the client (like the video). It remains to be seen if the statement "publish and be damned" will be realised.

Re: A Plan of Action
 

Also:

BT, Virgin Media and Talk Talk ISP addresses at:
http://www.inphormationdesk.org/ispcontacts.htm

Sample letters at:
http://www.inphormationdesk.org/sampleletters.htm

Re: A Plan of Action
 

Thank you. Thought it would be a good idea to get this all in one place for joiners :)

Re: A Plan of Action
 

Good post Kursk! .. and I think we've all been 'distracted' by this 80/20 Thinking/Privacy International merry-go-round for way too long!! .. it's wasted energy in my view, and not where the real battle lies!
Hounding Simon at every turn and trying to trip him up with clever word play is not getting us anywhere ..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hmmm, MS IE7 has antiphishing turned off by default. Lets stop and think about this for a moment. Why?

Well because it means that you are sending aspects (not even all) of your data stream to MS to check for Phishing and they did not want the world sending their data streams there without the world knowing they were doing it. The sort of class action that could even manage to cripple MS.

Yet Phorm wants to be on by default.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To be precise, having just installed IE7, it asks you whether you want to have antiphishing turned on or off.

But your point still stands absolutely - Microsoft provides a choice with IE7, but Phorm wants to be on by default.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:gpoint:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Unbelievable.

Hello, sound like phorm to me, how can they accept phorm knowing what they where before, looks like phorm trying to gain respectability within the anti-Phishing community. Kaspersky Lab is one of APWG partners, they(Kaspersky)have already said they will detect and remove the OIX.net cookie, so i wonder how this will sit with Kaspersky.

Re: A Plan of Action
 

Thanks Wild Oscar :). Simon is nobody's fool and he has a job to do. Putting our Plan Into Action (or PIA for short :D) is more important to us than the other PIA that Simon is working on.

You can't beat them for bare-faced cheek eh?!! :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Could you give a url for that please - I'd like to pop over. BT have been trying to keep Webwise out of the other forums and moderating pretty heavy handedly to do it. So I'd like to have a look before they can the posts.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hold on I think everyone is missing the Elephant in the room here. Phormscum couldn't give a damn about anti-phishing being on by default... this is classic conman sleight of hand by K*nt Etrugrul... what K*nt wants on by default is his profiling spyware which happens to have this totally irrelevant redundant phishing scam switched on in parallel.

Btw this is how easy it is to turn a proper phishing feature on, the one in IE7

http://www.microsoft.com/protect/pro...ingfilter.mspx

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Also a lot safer no Iframe that can drop behind and hide malicous downloads unlike phorm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Those sides are rarely black and white and usually two similar shades of grey.

Re: A Plan of Action
 

When I saw your first list I though 'Good post'. Then I saw this one. Great post Kursk!

---------- Post added at 09:33 ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 ----------

Looks like Phorm has "Sponsoring Vendor membership"

And they've paid $7500 for it. When and if we can get a proper defensive solution in place to combat Phorm perhaps we should distribute it and join APWG - A "Badphorm joins APWG" headline would be nice eh? If only a solution for Phorm being "in the middle with our ISP" was that easy...

Hank

---------- Post added at 09:37 ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 ----------

Could have sworn you were there already RJ! But I guess putting the link here does no harm, none at all, whatsoever!!!

http://beta.bt.com/bta/forums/thread...ID=19874#19874

Hank

---------- Post added at 09:48 ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 ----------

I mentioned on Saturday that I'd had a letter from the Earl of Northesk. I did not ask if I could publish so I'll just paraphrase.

I have to say, the man is a noble man (no pun intended) - In my letter I did say that I appreciated he is not an MP, and that means he has no secretaries to answer the emails and postal communications he receives. Yet, from thousands of miles away he apologises for the delay and does indeed respond in detail.

He's certainly going to be pursuing the challenges which Phorm and the Government's failure to tackle the issues raised presents.

He is awaiting responses to two new questions he asked the Government as "QfWA" (Questions for Written Answers).

He's provided me with links to the best ways to check for these Qs & As, so when I get home later in the week I'll get them posted if anyone wants them.

Have to agree with some of the other posters here in the last 36 hours. The argument needs to be taken up via MPs etc and not with Simon Davies. Let's focus on them because parliament is where the power is...

Alexander: I read (I think in a paper from you) that we would follow up with Parliamentary Omburdsman complaints - when does that start, any detail on process for that - what has to be done/exhausted first?

Hank

Re: A Plan of Action
 

Might also be worth lobbying through your Local Law Enforcement Structure, the more avenues explored the more the pressure increases!

http://www.apa.police.uk/apa
http://www.apa.police.uk/APA/About+Police+Authorities/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

(edited by Frank Rizzo to be more critical of 80/20 rather than personal of Simon)

80/20 Thinking: You are tainted; you are in bed with the enemy. Your whole task is to make Phorm work. Rather than just polish the turd your task is to make the turd edible for the people and this is what I do not like and what you do not seem to understand.

The whole PIA issue is going to be a whitewash pure and simple. It is not an independent public enquiry such as after a train crash, or a report on airport expansion: it is a paid for assessment where Phorm will have influence on what the PIA report will say.

Can 80/20 say that the report will be released as-is and never be seen by Phorm in draft form? Will your report go straight from your desk to the general public? Will Phorm get to change bits they do not like?

This is the whole point of me banging on about this. If Phorm pay the piper they call the tune. If they don't like the tune they get it changed and the public will not get to hear the bum notes.

No one should stand up for 80/20 just because of what some of the representatives have done in the past as Privacy International. 80/20 is tainted. Representatives of 80/20 are a modern day Neville Chamberlain.

If you are against Phorm full stop you have stop those who are working on a solution to appease the public.

Re: A Plan of Action
 

Thanks Hank - I am in fact already there, one of the few still active in fact. The forum you mentioned is the ONLY BT Beta forum that is allowed to discuss Webwise But as the BT Beta forums are the only ones that the mass of BT customers are likely to see, its important to keep the one that does remain, genuinely active, as otherwise it drops down off the front page of the General Broadband Support thread list. A search in BT Beta forums on "Webwise" or "Phorm" shows several mentions around the BT Beta forums but every thread it comes up on, gets locked, and only one survives. Because of this most active posters have given up and migrated over here or to BadPhorm - but sadly that means they are preaching to the converted. Personally I'd like to see all the BT customers mirroring what they post here over on the BT threads. In fact it wouldn't do any harm to pop up discreetly all over the Beta forum support groups and ask innocent questions about Webwise, with a mention of a few key links. That way OTHER BT customers might be alerted. It needs people who aren't recognised by the forum mods to just crawl around and make one post in say two forums, starting new threads, without putting Webwise or Phorm in the title, (no need to make it too easy for the mods to spot) with links to somehwere like http://www.inphormationdesk.org/attributions.htm
and the three threads I mentioned below
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...=3152&tstart=0
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...art=0&tstart=0
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...=3152&tstart=0

- and then quietly retire. Sure, the mods will eventually spot the thread and lock it, but each time more "ordinary" support customers can be informed.

I don't want to do that myself, or the mods will ban me - I think they already have me in their sights and I'm being very careful to keep the rules while trying to keep the pot boiling in ways they can't hammer me for.

They started a Webwise Q&A thread, about the technical trials
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...art=0&tstart=0
where one of their managers was supposed to answer questions but that got a bit too hot for them to handle and the manager, Adam Liversage simply stopped answering questions and then a little while later the thread was locked. They then told us the answers were going on the official Q&A (hosted on non-BT Fasthosts servers on the bt.webwise.com site !!!) They have now mirrored the FAQ at my inistence, on their main servers, so people who have bt.webwise.com blocked, can still read the FAQ.

These threads are well worth a read, especially the latter pages on the Q&Q thread, just to get a feel for the intense anger.

Maybe it is the first post that embarrasses them, the one that announces the start date of the trials, as mid-March (and that the threadincludes discussion of earlier rumours, started by BT staff themselves, that the trials had already started (which in a way they had, two years earlier but that wasn't what they meant!). Anyway those trials haven't yet got on the road, I think wheels are being reshaped, and the engine is still on the workbench, and the seats aren't ready yet (they were going to have the seats facing backwards with the steering wheel in another vehicle but someone told them that was illegal so they are redesigning/retrophitting).

You guys who are VM customers are in a slightly different position to us over at BT. You're trying to stop something happening that hasn't happened yet. Over on BT we already know we have been lied to, illegally intercepted, and that our ISP is frantically backtracking, and manouevering behind the scenes while trying to maintain a smooth PR exterior (and failing). And they have already broken the law, and are trying to do the same thing again while telling us its good for us. The hypocrisy, doublethink, newspeak and panic are quite clearly visible. But even now, I reckon most of BT's 3 million customers don't know what is going on, and if BT get away with it, will be conned into accepting Kent Ertugruls illegal interception of their browsing, and think he is doing them a favour. And web content all over the world will be sucked into his money making machine without anyone's consent having been sought or obtained.


On your second point re. Parliament
The links I have for following this are:
Early Day Motion Don Foster et all
http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDe...52&SESSION=891

Lord Northesk questions
http://www.publications.parliament.u..._2140_wad.html
with the Phorm one at
http://www.publications.parliament.u...08042112001130

and the house of Lords Science and Technology Committee membership here
http://www.parliament.uk/parliamenta...ct_members.cfm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Guys,
Just a quick word of thanks from a BT employee, Broadband user and shareholder. Rest assured that the vast majority of BT employees are also very aggreived by this. It came as a complete shock to us, just as it did for you. Its a real puzzle why we are continuing with it - it strongly stinks of corruption, although I have no evidence whatsoever, it just 'feels' odd.

Also dont be too hard on any call centre folks who give you mis-information. Its pretty certain they are in the dark as much as anyone.

Good luck with the fight - and don't forget you have allies in all sorts of unexpected places.

Anon. (For obvious reasons)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As I've said more than once (but keep getting ignored) Richard Clayton said the Phorm technology could become part of the "Critical National Infrastructure" (CNI).

It is a fact that the CNI is partly run by MI5

And again I ask people to consider, who would benefit most from the interception and scanning of the contents of UK internet data streams?

The answer, of course, is MI5.

This is NOT 'tin hat' stuff, to be joked about and laughed off. We live in a surveillance society - that's a fact!

Ali.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

On the negative side, this is potentially a loophole re RIPA, it can be argued that providing an anti-phishing service is a legitimate exception, in the same way that eg running an anti-spam service is.

On the other hand, they may just be looking for something to make opting-in seem more attractive to the great unwashed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

and that is why it will happen....the isp makes money the government has the finger on the pulse who cares about customers!! a win win for the policy makers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This would concern me far less than being profiled in order to line the pockets of spyware **** and incompetent ailing ISPs.

There is a separate debate to be had about individual freedoms v national security. In fact MI5 or whoever wouldn't need something as sophisticated as phorm to spy on your data stream.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just how many people are there that are small shareholders can we not get a fighting party of shareholders to question this path.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thats all the phising scam is just a load of hogwash to tide sheep who dont know what phorm/webwise does till it hits.

All of our data can already be viewed by secret services if they wish via ripa so the argument about tin hat's dosnet exist as its already there, damn if im going to let kent the spyware thinker get to see any of my posts, comments thoughts or buying prefrences not in this lifetime anyhow.

Glad to see some bt staff really hate this idea too just goes to show that those above some are pulling the strings for there fat cat bonuses and profit margins at the expense of ordinary people (hint you cant sell people on paper).

Once the great unwashed i.e all the ordinary joe's get a broader picture of phorm/webwise if it gets the go ahead when all the inphormed leave the isp's will be left with the less tech savvy then by simple word of mouth alone even the sheep that are left will leave or be left with 2nd tier internet access.

Any of my data hits ANY phorm kit thats where i bow out, as for us virgin customers i still belive i was intercepted from in between my join date on this forum (hence the joining looking for answers) may and july 2007 i even know i saw the same thing as bt customers and unresolving dns sysip.net (virgin still havent sent me my writen reply yet as i asked) but thats a long story thinking at the time it was a browser hijack, so i take everything vm say on the issue with the same take as bt users (get lied to).

Let the isp's go ahead with there illegal trials or there implementation they will find out what users of the internet really feel about this and the great inet slides more into 4th world (were already a 3rd world country according to k*nt dont forget).
Some suppliers will prosper some will die i wonder who :).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe not, but wouldn't they need a warrant?

All they'd need to do the same thing using Phorm's kit is a cheque book!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No. The state only requires a warrant when they are doing things legally.:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Given the recent case in Poole of council employees being granted a warrant to spend 3 weeks spying on a couple to try to prove they did not in fact live where they said they did (although they did!) to uphold a schools admissions policy this should not prove too difficult an obstacle! :erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good to hear from you. We know you're there.

I've long been aware that the BT strategy is to release critical information to the press long before it even THINKS about updating the support scripts. It has happened so many times, with each major development.

Let's reconfigure the mail servers - got the press release? Good.
Shouldn't we tell customers?
Why?
They need to know.
Why?
Because this reconfiguration will break their email.
So what?
They will ring support - have we told support?
Why?
Because they need to know
Why?
So they can help the customers sort their broken email
Sorry - what was those words you used?
Which ones?
I think you said "Help the customers"
Well - isn't that what the support desk is for?
HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! - you're new round here aren't you?
Yes
Well hurry up and get that press release written "in order to improve our customers' online email experience, we are upgrading the security on our email servers. It will be fantastic and will make our email servers the most secure in the world." Got that? And when you've done that, don't forget to send the letter to the shareholders explaining the increased dividend.
Yes sir. Shall I add that bit we usually put in about being a customer focussed company?
Of course.

---------- Post added at 12:32 ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 ----------

I know - they're wonderful aren't they. That's my local council.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They already can -- that's what was behind RIPA.
But co-opting Phorm would enable them to detect keywords or access to specific websites across the entire datastream from participating ISPs.
(Some of which they allegedly can do already using the NSA's Echelon.)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No-one find it weird how when ripa is used in a way by the council front page news for political reasons, yet when an isp flaunts it and thinks it has every right to legally break it (affecting a hell of a lot more people) nothing is said on the front pages and no one from PI or elsewhere puts backing onto it and it gets hushed up?.

More going on in this whole matter than people think and not for obvious reasons.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There are two different battles here even if you exclude 80/20.

!st is our internet we pay for the service, ISP are supposed to supply the carrier for where ever we decide to visit, they have no right to intercept this function. Regardless of what the 80/20 report says this is breaking our laws and as such should be allowed to go to trial.

2nd. The governments lack of action on those who are already guilty of this law breaking. Lack of action points to some phorm of hidden ajenda ( trojan horse) on our PCs we virus kill trojans and remove them I see no reason to stop this now.

3. 80/20 I had hopes they would be somewhat in line with their history of fighting for the small man being manipulated having their privacy invaded. Now I am not so sure what to trust my faith is shrinking as the time passes. Things that have happened since the public meeting shows Kent to be still the same arrogant smarmy individual that placed rootkits on as many pcs as he could. Links to Russian scripters do not help to lay those fears. 80/20 should have completed this for free for the safty of the community at large, peoples rights to be allowed their freedom, privacy, human rights. Once 80/20 loses track of the path they started and becomes diverted then more will use the 80/20 system to gain reputation.

With something this powerful in the hands of someone who is not reputable needs to have a privacy check by an totally independant company one that has no links tied into phorm, BT, VM.

To finish this VM have said they are only looking but the recent changes in T&C would imply more than just looking.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree with this comment. I have nothing to hide but I certainly don't wish to be wire-tapped for the financial gain of others. This Phorm technology is an absolute disgrace and any ISP's who are examining this as an option must want their heads seeing to! Do they honestly think the outrage will go away once it was in place if they were to go ahead?

I honestly think it could put some ISP's out of business when they eventually have to respond to market forces (or the lack of them due to migration) and rip out all their expensive equipment and get out of all their expensive contracts.

Perhaps Kent can't lose. Either we pay up or the ISP's will in the end.

Then again, if Kent and the ISP executives were to be in Prison due to breaking certain laws, perhaps they could settle up with each other during a few card games to pass the time of day as they serve out their time.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Simple really. Two words: Patricia Hewitt.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As a footnote to my last comment.

If Phorm were to go ahead, I don't think it would help the security services one bit. Everyone will eventually be using JAP and TOR and HTTPS sites when they are browsing and the security service will end up with an even more difficult job. Once everybody realises they are being tapped, everybody will react in many ways to this! All Phorm/Webwise is doing is making everybody aware of this fact.
I am surprised the powers that be do not realise this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Perhaps the powers that be underestimate the ability of the average Internet user to understand the technology (possibly because they have such a hard time grasping it themselves and have to rely on the likes of Kent to explain it to them)

:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Have any anon vm employee's came out with any posts on the matter anywhere? by the looks of things must be a big internal memo out at vm towers with a big URGENT do not mention phorm/webwise to customers on it.
Strange really as most of the ones with inside knowledge post about such matters as upgrades, stm without problem but phorm/webwise seems ohh so quiet for some reason and all the cogs and gears were nearly inplace.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

With all due respect, when I last spoke to you regarding police action against BT you said you were biding your time for certain reasons. You are one of the few people with hard evidence of Phorming and also have good arguments to show how you were personally affected in terms of lost time and a new computer.

Meanwhile I have been in contact with 2 other individuals who had no evidence of Phorming who have literally had their allegations ignored by the police, given the lack of evidence, the lack of personal loss and access to sufficient resources to investigate (public interest argument).

If you haven't since approached the police, might I ask why not? Whilst I can see some of your point with respect to Simon at the end of the day we live in a commercial society and I have no problems with whom individuals chose to work with (with one criticism in the case of SD that I have already posted).

In my view you'd be better targeting your energy in fighting for a police case, which you may well be, than pinning your hopes on 80/20 to fight our cause.

You'll be in good company asking for some action against BT, Don Foster MP wants at least the company to issue an apology to all customers who could have been affected (i.e. all customers) and the Earl of Northesk apparently wants some action.

I was affected but don't have any proof, so I have written several carefully-worded letters to several MPs, the ICO, BT and the BBC, as well as other high-profile members of the internet community about my belief that ISPs and the infrastructure of the internet should be protected against this kind of (ab)use, no specifically by Phorm but by any data profiling company.

I guess what I'm trying to say to everyone who wants to fight this is to try and take some (legal) direct action in writing, spreading the word through leaflets, bumper stickers, petitions... Whatever it takes rather than attacking individuals associated with Phorm and BT, especially where these people only became involved many months after the second trial. It's not as if SD wrote the software or introduced the happy couple of BT and Phorm.

---------- Post added at 13:40 ---------- Previous post was at 13:33 ----------

What the former Secretary of State for Health and BT board member has got to do with current policing decisions or influencing newspaper editors I don't know.

From what I know about politics a political party is a party of strong-minded individuals and equally strong-minded senior civil servants who wouldn't be at the beck and call of a colleague who has been out of office for the best part of a year.

I would however look to other high profile members of the media, including some Phorm directors, and view the issue as simply one of money talking.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It is much harder to attack the enemy when there are those with considerable clout, money, and backing are doing all they can to defend it.

Your enemies friend is not your friend.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

if you were to take your tin hat off for a moment it could be quiet because there is nothing to report!! this thread is quickly losing credibility between us we seem to be doing the phormpr work for them,imo some posters are attacking the wrong people.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You seem to have a great deal more confidence and respect for politicians than I do. Patricia Hewitt may not have much influence with newspaper editors but I would expect her to still have a great deal of influence with her colleagues and personally I doubt BT employed her for her managerial skills.

On another tangent, after reading the disturbing news that Phorm have gained membership of the anti-phishing working group I have emailed them regarding this concentrating on phorms past as 121 media, the apropos rootkit they wrote and also the illegal trials of 2006 and 2007. I did ask them for any comments they had on the matter and made it clear that I would publish any response I got unless asked not to. I suggest others email them too ( info at antiphishing org ).

Maybe if enough people email them they will reconsider Phorm membership and that would make a great story if the anti phishing working group were to withdraw their membership.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Long time lurker here. I`ve followed the thread in this forum among others with great interest since first reading about Phorm. As my BT contract is due to run out in June I intend jumping ship to another provider then. I emailed BT about their deployment of WebWise, however I think UKPRTeam answered it as not one of my questions were answered.
Anyhoo, just emailed antiphishing.org and awaiting a reply
Dear Sir/Madam,
It was with some dismay and shock that I noticed you carrying the logo of Phorm, (www.phorm.com), once known as 121Media, and renowned the world over for hard to remove spyware and rootkits. Surely there is a conflict of interest here, or is it a matter of money talks?
How a reputable organisation can allow such a company to become a member beggers belief!
It merely seems a case of Phorm paying membership fees to your organisation to gain a cloak of respectibility through being associated with many of the fine companies who DO care about malware and best practice.
With dismay
Geordie
At the worst antiphishing.org know I`m not happy about it. At the best they may reconsider their position.
GF

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well when virgin media reply to me in writing (as i asked) denying all the allegations i have put to them in 2 emails without recieving a reply and hearing a vm employee on the phone say to myself with my wife present in the room that trials were on the ex ntl pltform (which i also dont belive and told them this in my first follow up email) ill take my tin hat off ok.

Anyone that wishes to flame me in the event of making posts in this thread can pm me anytime they like instead of dismising me in this thread.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Howdy piggy. I personally have written to Liberty, MP, MEPs, Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals, Earl of Northesk, Computer Crime Unit of the Metropolitan Police and now the anti phishing working group. Got any suggestions where else would be a good place to write?

By all means criticise if you think people are attacking the wrong people but its more helpful if you actually make suggestions of who we SHOULD blame/write to as well :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To some degree I do. I genuinely feel that most of the politicians I meet have the electorate's views and interests at heart. I also feel (above local level at least, but that's another story) that parliament is not corruptable to the degree that the press would have us believe.

That's not to say I don't have many issues with our democracy. The problem is that the electorate doesn't necessarily know what's good for the country as a whole in the long term, and it's up to parliament to debate that.

"The good of the country" is the argument that gets abused in issues like the Dodgy Dossier, Contra, BAE, and state surveillance.

It also gets abused in the guise of promoting and encouraging trade an innovation, hence Phorm's lack of opposition.

But there's enough good voices in parliament who, given suitable encouragement from the likes of us, will work for us.

I really don't believe that Patricia Hewitt's address book is any more effective at influencing government than William Hague's or Don Foster's or anyone who's spoken out against Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Most VM employees have been posting on here for a while and most likely known to VM who they are so that could be diffucult.

Saying that I have a friend who has spoken to someone high up on VM techies and they said it is more when than if, they also said they wouldn't want to have to sort it out if it went tits up since it was a load of servers in a row.

From that I would say the servers are in place somewhere and have been seen by some employees. The upgrading all over the country would also make me feel a little uneasy as this could be how they are slipping these in at head ends.

I lost faith and trust in VM to look after my privacy so spoke with my money and moved, reviewed them on ISPreview so others looking for an ISP would be warned about the VM spyware.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In all due respect, I think it is important to keep the engine running when we are awaiting any further news. I don't think Bonglet meant to offend anybody, more possibly a plea to any VM employees who may be contemplating spilling a few beans. I also think what you said is correct regarding attacking wrong people, but I also think this also may apply to Bonglets 'tin hat' written by yourself.

United we stand, divided we will fall!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I value your opinion and thoughts James and, although I agree in general with the gist of what you said, when it comes to patricia hewitt I disagree but then life would be boring if we all agreed, wouldn't it? :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Firstly Echelon is not NSA it is a joint project between several european countires the US and iirc Australia.

Secondly Echelon does not profile anything. It is a mass data gathering tool, all it does it warehouse the data other than that they data is only used when it is queried (usually based on national security issues or international terrorism). The data is not neatly categorised by person or anything like that, it is a chaotic data dump that takes time and effort to get any really usable information from it. At least that is my understanding of it and I have been reading as much as I can find about Echelon for several years now.

Finally even with Phorm in place the Police etc. would -still- require a warrant in order to access their technology otherwise even if they did find something it is unlikely the evidence would be admissible in court.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It would indeed. In fact I have often had a change of opinion after engaging in debate, and one curious aspect of politics is the idea that changing ones mind (the fabled U-turn) or admitting mistakes had been made is seen as such a bad thing that the only course of action left is to carry on regardless.

The myth that any individual or organisation is infallible or that circumstances never arise that could not have previously been known or planned for is madness.

BT - VM - TT - there's no need to carry on regardless!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Afternoon Alexander. Hope you managed to get some sleep and rest.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Frank, you're in a fantastic position to highlight BT's (and by extension, Phorm's) abuse of browser traffic privacy.
Even getting news articles published about an impending court case would significantly raise our profile and gain more supporters.

Please get in touch with Nick Bohm (from the UKCrypto mailing list and legal counsel to the FIPR), Chris Williams (The Register) and maybe even Simon (with his PI hat on!) with a view to getting your legal case against BT moving.

If you need support or advice, I'm sure everyone here will be happy to offer whatever they can.

So let's stick to those folk who have a track record in fighting for privacy issues?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: GeordieF and I must say we both did the same thing at roughly the same time; namely contacting the anti phishing working group regarding Phorms membership. I really hope that others will follow suit. If enough people contact them regarding Phorm then maybe they will reconsider and that would make a great news story to batter Phorm with. Just imagine the headline on theregister:

"Anti-Phishing Working Group withdraws Phorm Membership"

That would be a nice concrete achievement if we could make it happen and would help to increase publicity and would be one more nail in the coffin.

Plan of Action
 

Thanks for comments and additional contributions. UPDATED
--------------------------------------------------------
Write to your MP
Write to your ISP: Virgin Media; BT; TalkTalk
Write to your EU representative
Sign the Downing Street petition
Sign the BT petition
Serve a section 11 Data Protection Notice on your ISP
Watch this
Read this
Go here for a summary
BT, Virgin Media and Talk Talk ISP addresses
Sample letters
Tell them what you think about Phorm's membership
Association of Police Authorities: About

Spread the word and ask everyone you know to do the same.
----------------------------------------------------------
*And if you are lurking, please sign up and get stuck in!*

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good work kursk.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No they would just put a L7 switch in place and duplicate the data stream off to Thames House (and probably Vauxhall Cross for good measure).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My email to APWG:

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:tu:

:tu:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@RJ & OB re: BT Forums.

See:http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...=3514&tstart=0

Posts 4 & 5 mention phorm. Sorry for delay - just catching up now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Im just about to email APWG and I notice that Frontporch is also a sponsor!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting:

Phorm may not only be about targeted ads. Big business is trying to protect its honeypot. Simon, we need your help.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I happened to notice that

"Hiss! Who ? Hint - Beware Pimping !"

is an anagram of

"Phorm Webwise anti-phishing"


:-)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They're trying to buy themselves credibility,

My email to APWG,

As OF1975 said;

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's like my computer's dictionary suggesting Virus as the correct spelling of Phorm's US COO.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

well here's my email to apwg

lets see if I get a reply.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If enough people email them I am sure at least one of us will get a response.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed. Good going everyone :clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And you will see moderator has edited the 5th post.
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/me...ID=19692#19692

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wish I could post there.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Suppose we need to do another thread and ask how many people have shares in BT build a list of questions to be raised at the AGM

Email sent my email last night.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"The dissertation has received very positive comments from privacy advocates and legal experts and is in fact being cited at an ISPA Legal Forum in London next month"

did i miss that earlyer post Alexander, or were you keeping that secret lol.

---------- Post added at 19:54 ---------- Previous post was at 19:51 ----------

not just questions Florence, you need to anticipate potential misleading answers and be ready to counter them realtime with the real facts as known so far, be ready for it and dont get taken offguard.

---------- Post added at 19:56 ---------- Previous post was at 19:54 ----------

you can, just sign up....

or post it here and have one of the betaBT membership crosspost it there....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I hadn't mentioned it but I did receive an email from a prominent legal expert (whom we all admire) requesting permission to use my section on Copyright, Designs and Patents Act for an upcoming ISPA Legal Forum as he considered it work original to me. I didn't think it was really something most people would be interested in which is why I never mentioned it here, but I felt it gives a little more weight to the email which is why I did mention it there.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I thought you had to be a BT customer to sign up to the BT forums. Am I wrong?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www2.bt.com/register

Not sure if you have to be a BT customer or not - but worth a try.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If I remember rightly, it asks for your BT account number, but you can elect to 'provide this later'.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you know better than that Alexander, ;)

your paper is the only one that did cover the copyright angle OC.

although not the exact user datastream auto copyright i had in mind...

its a shame the "mear conduit" didnt pan out as really significant.

and i still think the named executive on an injunction has legs, but thats still flapping in the wind ATM if we cant find out the best/cheapest options to make that happen... and move it forward.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK I will admit it, I didn't want to be seen to be "blowing my own trumpet" given Kent's comment about me only being involved for self promotion. Of course I am very proud and excited to know people are taking my work seriously and that it is being used for something other than an academic grade.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 20:25 ---------- Previous post was at 20:23 ----------

http://tobymeres.net/ is broken again, just so everyone knows. I have PM'd Jamie but given his current situation people shouldn't expect it to be fixed in a hurry.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just mention my name It may help (not)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I had issues trying to sign up. Maybe due to me using safari. Oh well am sure there are many there trying to take the fight to BT :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That is really good news for Alexander plus a worthy reward for all his hard work.



One reason why I am taking over my mothers portfolio with her BT shares she is not able to get AGMs anymore and apparently just giving her votes to the chairman to cast for her. :erm: well that ends this year I will take total charge of them for her and awkward questions will result in my aquesition. Maybe we should start a small investers forum for BT shareholders to get smaller holders into a larger fighting group.


Interesting since I have a BT line now can I sign up and upset the applecart.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ever since I had a post censored (for complaining not swearing) on the BT Beta Forums I have had great difficulty in signing in. I've already had to apply for a new password once and am now applying for another as I'm locked out again. This is a great nuisance as it means I can't even sign in to my phone account and as I (stupidly) went for paperless bills signing in is the only way I can do business. Maybe I should follow my "kids" example and only use a mobile?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's my understanding that the BT forum is being heavily moderated to confine discussion of Phorm/Webwise to one thread.

I would have thought it would be quite legitimate for a concerned shareholder to canvas opinion in other threads about the issue. Even to give some of the basic facts so that any replies can be informed.

Of course, if BT moderators decided to censor such an exercise, that in itself would be a serious issue to raise at the AGM.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another reason why many block adverts on Internet this quote was taken from ISPr.
So why do we want to trust our internet connection to adverts placed by people with history of rootkits...

---------- Post added at 21:29 ---------- Previous post was at 21:27 ----------

this site being hacked again smacks a lot of insider and yes Kent is my number 1 suspect considering it is the only videos of the meeeting and phorm failed to release theirs. I hope the hosting company checks logs and starts to report this to authorities people like them have to learn we will not take this type of ebullying...

I have downloaded all the videos so if anyone wants a copy I can upload and send links over pm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander, if you haven't seen this post on vm.feedback you might enjoy it;

Are VirginMedia still part of the ISPA?

[Oct 2007 ISPA spokesman said] "ISPs cannot monitor or record the type of information passed over their network. ISPs are no more able to inspect and filter every single packet passing across their network than the Post Office is able to open every envelope. ISPs deal with many more packets of data each day than postal services and data protection legislation actually prevents ISPs from looking at the content of the packets sent," he added.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7059881.stm

[April 2008 Richard Clayton, Treasurer, FIPR said] "The Phorm system is highly intrusive -- it's like the Post Office opening all my letters to see what I'm interested in, merely so that I can be sent a better class of junk mail."
http://www.fipr.org/press/080317phorm.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah I read the BBC article when it was published last year, but it is a good point all the same.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Now those would be good quotes to post on file sharing forums, I should think it would encourage bit-torrent users to sign the petition :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Actually, from that same BBC article I noted this too

"'ISPA does not support abuses of copyright and intellectual property theft', said an ISPA spokesman."

... which doesn't fit well with the parasitic stealing of copyright web pages.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This relates to the whole "mere conduit" argument I was referring to a few pages back. The ISPs often quote this kind of argument in reference to filesharing and the RIAA and MPAA etc yet when it comes to Phorm their "mere conduit" argument falls to pieces. They are being hypocritical in the extreme.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

None the less, the ISPA do seem very enthusiastic about Phorm http://www.nma.co.uk/Logon/ResourceB...icleID%3d37294

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Joining BT forums:

I joined using my BT phone account - I am not a BT broadband user. A lot of the forums are specifically to do with phones not broadband.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Touching on what Dephormation said about ISPA

From the ISPA code of practice
http://www.ispa.org.uk/about_us/page_16.html

so no interception then

Now I really don't think Phorm/webwise is essential for provision of service.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ISPA seem to be struggling with two conflicting corporate personalities at the moment.

Deep Packet Inspection - they can't decide whether they can or can't do it (but it seems that goat has now been ritually sacrificed for greed).

Privacy - they can't decide whether the law applies to them, or doesn't.

Copyright - they do not support copyright and intellectual property theft, but don't think laws of copyright apply to them when they steal web content for profiling

At very least, they are getting some very odd and very inconsistent legal advice.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT don't like Safari. It doesn't cope with Webwise...