Re: Brexit
 

That's him, smug Jacob's pal

Re: Brexit
 

Post 5565 is a prime example of why it's hard to achieve and is the reason I didn't want to take part in that debate. I was making one point and that was all.

Re: Brexit
 

Indeed.

Dismissing possibilities that are “could” out of hand on that basis ignores one important element which is “likelihood”. If 100 things are in a list of bad things that could reasonably happen it’d take a stroke of luck for none to happen.

Similarly we “could” strike excellent trade deals outside the EU with no evidence we will.

It’s obvious the leave campaign has one last stand which is to deny a public vote on the basis it’s anti-democratic and fight for the same outcome. Engaging in the merits of leaving or remaining is a recipe for defeat.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

One last stand? . . you make it sound like a 1956 western

It's obvious that Leave won the referendum, and just as obvious that Remain are trying every trick in the book to overturn the result.

Re: Brexit
 

This is the other trick: to imply that a further democratic vote is undemocratic. Which is impossible. It’s by definition an exercise in democracy.

David Cameron’s Government ceased to exist when he resigned. The Conservative Party further rolled the dice and lost out. They shouldn’t make promises they can’t keep, I agree, but it’s foolish to bind ourselves to that document unnecessarily on that basis.

Re: Brexit
 

Do we upsurp democracy every time we have a general election ? Soon be 2019, 3 years since the Brexit vote, the electorate and opinions change, they are probably a lot more informed now than they were during the campaign of lies.

Hate and division seems to be the bright new future, I despair at the way the country is going, and not just because of Brexit. Poverty is increasing as are the number of homeless dying. Austerity and selfish attitude of many has taken its toll. Brexit is going to make things worse I'm afraid with an increasing rich/poor divide. Areas of the country that benefitted from EU help ie. most outside the SE, will be hit hard. Boris and Jacob will be ok though...

Anyway, let's have a Brexit armistice for Xmas ! Peace and goodwill to all men and all that cobblers ! I'm off for a walk in the sunshine to desperately try and think of happy things :)

Re: Brexit
 

Happy Christmas one and all on the Brexit thread. I may not have agreed with everything everyone said but it wouldn't be a debate otherwise!
Thanks to the moderators for their hard work in keeping us all in check and here's to a good break and interesting 2019.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

It wasn’t binding. It was unconstitutional, and unfortunate, for Cameron to give that impression. No matter how many people believed it has no legal effect.

Democracy can never usurp democracy in our Parliamentary system. It’s impossible for a second vote to be unlawful if this Parliament enables it.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Our constitution is based on a premise that no Parliament can bind a future Parliament.

No Government pamphlet can ever change that. If Cameron wanted to deliver that he should have triggered A50 immediately and hung around to deliver it as quickly as possible. Otherwise that piece of paper is no more legally binding than hopes and aspirations.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

It’s not a nugatory line. It’s a fact. There’s no provisions for our Parliament in 2015 to bind our Parliament today, or indeed our Parliament to bind the Parliament of 2023. I accept a change would need to be made to primary legislation, but that’s not difficult if there’s the will in Parliament.

Still at it over the “beastly” French and the Irish, I see. Raging capitalists want something in return for free trade deal shocker.

I’m not entering a debate on the age at which people can vote. I know equally ignorant people at all ages.

The principle of one Parliament not binding another doesn’t require a change of PM, or a general election. It creates distance in theory, but in practice it could be the exact same Parliament changing it’s mind.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Just been on the radio that tomorrow's Queens Speech will call for everybody to unify and treat each other with respect; this is believed to refer to Brexit.

They also said that May had stated that people should come together and that this may involve dropping the terms 'Remainer' and 'Leaver'.

Re: Brexit
 

What's it going to be then celebrators and sulkers 1. (often plural) a state or mood of feeling resentful or sullen: he's in a sulk because he lost the game.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

This topic has been the source of several reports recently.

So this is a reminder to everyone about Reported Posts.

As the report screen says ;

If we get any more frivolous reports that don’t fit the RP rules, I'll be handing out infraction points.

The team has better things to do over christmas than deal with peoples petty disagreements.

Re: Brexit
 

Three cheers for Her Maj.

Re: Brexit
 

I’m going to leave the thread until 4th January, as Parliament is in recess and nothing can meaningfully change before then anyway. We could all go round in circles once more but what’s the point?

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. :)

Re: Brexit
 

Quite a lot of hostility here, in real life and social media etc. This whole brexit thing really has divided the country in such a nasty way.

I voted remain and would be in favour of another referendum purely for the fact pretty much no one is going to get what they voted for. The ballot said "do you want to leave the european union" mentioned nothing about freedom of movement or the single market (which we may be staying in at this rate)

A lot of people say thats unconstitutional and undemocratic. But we have elections every 5 years. You vote based on the circumstances the country find itself in and the policies advocated by the political party. Since the brexit vote circumstances have bloody changed. Its a mess. We now know what deal we're going to get. The choices should be now

1) Accept the deal - with the deal fully explained to people
2) Hard brexit
3) No brexit

At least people could then finally get what they want since circumstances have changed tremendously from what people voted for 2 years ago. Lies have been revealed. We're now finally going to see what we're going to get

Basically half in and half out of europe but with no say in the running of the EU. Which is quite ridiculous. So circumstances have changed why can't we have another vote to see if we want that or not? I think that is democracy at its finest.

I enjoy debates with people who voted brexit but i'll never insult them like i don't expect to be insulted back. So then i see childish words like "remoaners" i find it extraordinary. Or comments like "jeez you remainers!" like its a bad thing to have a different point of view.

We are all going to have different points of view. I won't sneer at people who voted for brexit and will treat them with respect and seeing social media and the attacks at people who have different points of view. I find it ironic that people who voted brexit don't want another refendrum because it'll "ruin democracy" but then attack people who haven an opposing view which is what democratic countries allow. Bitterly ironic.

The country is well and truly at a crossroads this year. God bless us all!

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

NO NO NO NO, to option 3.

We voted to leave, why cannot people get that.

Please don't say "we didn't know waht we were voting for" - if thats the case you should never be allowed to vote again.

Lets not even mention the £350m.

Re: Brexit
 

Again, the canard that the referendum ballot paper said nothing about the customs union or the single market.

Of course it didn’t. It said nothing about any of the details of the exit arrangements. It said nothing about the future relationship. But guess what? All of this was pointed out during the campaign. Frequently, it was pointed out by both sides. The remain campaign went hard on the “no single market” angle because they thought it would scare people into voting remain. They were wrong.

On voting day, the electorate was very well aware of the risks and opportunities. It was aware of the things that could not be determined until negotiations were well advanced.

And the result was still “leave”.

Re: Brexit
 

What a difference 18 months makes to EU 27 nationals!

3rd July 2016 "EU nationals here should see no change in their status (except no longer voting at local or European elections).
Daniel Hannan https://twitter.com/danieljhannan/st...27018325311488

27th December 2018 "EU citizens and their families will need to apply to the EU Settlement Scheme to continue living in the UK after 31 December 2020."
UK Home Office https://twitter.com/ukhomeoffice/sta...06349148708865

Re: Brexit
 

How else can they prove their entitlement to stay, compared to others who are not in the UK at the moment? Same goes for anybody. We all have to be able to our entitlement, one way or another.

Re: Brexit
 

But YOU in particular didn't know what you were voting for and you proved it on here, I can fetch the post if you need reminding again?

You know bozo has said repeatedly over the last 5 years that he'd vote to stay in the single market, I think he even said we could stay in it during the leave campaign but I could be corrected on that.

I don't believe we were sufficiently aware of the risks and opportunities, they were shams of campaigns, lazy, error strewn and darn right deceitful at times. Just because you believe you were sufficiently aware doesn't mean we all were, I don't believe I had enough information to make a proper decision and I said so at the time, felt a bit let down by the whole thing tbh

Also a close friend has been told he's being made redundant in the new year, brexit costs are the reason and no doubt many more in the supply chain are hearing the same, he voted leave as he thought it'd help him get a doctor's appointment earlier, wonder if he was aware of the risk of being out of job as he was the opportunity of seeing a quack?

Re: Brexit
 

What's wrong with their passports?

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Good luck trying to deport EU citizens anyway there are too many of them and many doing very important jobs.

Re: Brexit
 

That kind of thinking won't save them everyone is replaceable.

Re: Brexit
 

Whether you find anyone to replace them is a different matter.

Re: Brexit
 

No it isn't ,there are many applicants for every job that is advertised.

Re: Brexit
 

Not all jobs get filled as the NHS well knows.

Re: Brexit
 

Currently that may (or may not be) true.
But we're not talking about currently.

Re: Brexit
 

Exactly, there's a chronic shortage of doctors, nurses and radiographers so clearly there aren't multiple suitably qualified candidates for each post.

Re: Brexit
 

There's a whole planet out there to recruit from.
And those from the EU can still apply if their paper work is in order.

Re: Brexit
 

The Government should trawl through them all and get rid of any that aren't bringing anything to the table. Those that are have nothing to fear.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Well done you just lost your argument with a single post :clap:

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Why The Nazis need to be mentioned in this thread just beggars belief as we are in 2018 and not the war years of 1939 to 1945.:rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Godwin's Law.

Re: Brexit
 

NHS does recruit from all around the world but people are more likely to up sticks and relocate when they live geographically close...i.e. in Europe. The 30K rule is ludicrous, how many porters, nurses even junior doctors earn that?

Re: Brexit
 

£30K is above national average earnings.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Yet they have deliberately removed any reference to figures in reducing immigration.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Nothing to do with liking people or not, some are here working in hard to fill vacancies or skill shortage areas, have done voluntary work etc. Others have broken the law, are homeless, openly defecate in public, have never done any meaningful remunerative work, have health conditions that are expensive to treat etc.

Getting rid of these would go a long way to appeasing those unhappy with immigration as a whole.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

Sorry Richard, but I do agree with Sephiroth that your phrasing, particularly "getting rid of" does come across a bit sinisterly, though I know you would not intend it to have this effect.
A different way would be to say "enforcing existing EU legislation that allows the UK and other countries to deport non-working citizens from other EU countries."
(The criteria is that have not worked for six months and cannot produce compelling evidence that they are continuing to seek employment and have a genuine chance of being engaged.)

Re: Brexit
 

I imagine that this is very difficult to enforce, do you know if this legislation is ever used? Never again do I want to visit London and find them living & begging/mugging in the subways and openly defecating in public parks.

I was talking to an elderly Irish friend over Christmas. He told me that when they first came to England the police would move them on from park benches if they were caught sleeping on them. They found work building the motorways etc and obtained money for accommodation that way.

Re: Brexit
 

Re: Brexit
 

An utterly objectionable post on the scale that’s difficult to describe. I had intended to avoid the thread but can’t let this one go.

When you find yourself on the opposite side of Sephiroth and myself on the Brexit thread it’s quite an astonishing feat.

Yes, the Nazis had the same idea and no that doesn’t mean Sephiroth loses the argument. EU citizens resident here were promised that their status here would remain the same automatically. If we can’t stand by that then what do we have?

Where do we draw the line?

I’ve no personal affinity to anyone born here that doesn’t “contribute” as you put it. Why don’t we just do away with the principles of universal school education, healthcare, the welfare system? If people can’t pay their way they should live on the streets? In extreme poverty?

It’s an absolutely ridiculous and offensive assertion.

It also ignores the obvious step of the EU deporting UK citizens who don’t work back here. Many in their well earned retirements sent home to use our care system, our NHS and buy properties here. They’re entitled to do all of the above but is anyone better off at the end of this if it’s forced?

This isn’t a game it’s the lives of millions of people. British people and European people.

Re: Brexit
 

[cynical] So that's the reason for delaying the vote on her plan so she can bribe dissenters with the honours list.[/cynical]

Re: Brexit
 

Get over yourself and grow up.

---------- Post added at 17:08 ---------- Previous post was at 17:07 ----------

That's Sir dissenter to you ;)

Re: Brexit
 

I don’t believe calling out xenophobia for what it is requires me to either grow up nor get over myself.

I note you didn’t contend any of the points in my post presumably because you are incapable of offering any opposite view.

Re: Brexit
 

Problem is, the roles that need filling in the NHS do not pay enough to meet the threshold.

Should UK NHS staff be passed over for promotion just so someone from overseas can be brought in, because that pay band is high enough to meet the criteria?

Re: Brexit
 

There are approximately one million British people living in other EU countries and approx three million of them living here, so that shows who benefits the most from this EU policy.

Those that come here are able to take full advantage of our superior health, education, social security etc systems. They will also usually need rented housing, a job and/or benefits and are likely to have children that need maternity care, education etc.

Most of those who have moved from Britain will be pensioners wanting a warmer climate.
They usually purchase a new build in an English community with the proceeds from their house sale, their pension is paid for by the British Government ie they bring money into their host country (providing employment, whilst needing none themselves) and take little out. For obvious reasons, they are unlikely to have any young children.

Other EU countries may well decide to reciprocate our decision, but it wouldn't be in their financial interests to do so.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inves...duk/2017-09-05

I don't think that our welfare state should be dismantled, nor do I have any problem paying taxes to help those less fortunate than myself. I do have a problem with others coming over from abroad who, intentionally or otherwise, milk our system.

Our welfare state isn't an international system open to everybody, it's paid for and meant for people who are legally and morally entitled to it in the UK.

Re: Brexit
 

I don't see this threshold lasting, it's a bad idea, people are more worried about the influx of unskilled labour flooding into factories etc.

Re: Brexit
 

The other spin on it is that EU citizens of working age - so we didn’t educate them - and enter our workforce. Immediately being net positives to the Treasury as opposed to someone born here who has had at least 11 years of education out.

The evidence simply doesn’t exist to support that there is wholesale abuse of our welfare system by people from abroad any more that the population in general. According to the newspapers the benefit system is awful anyway, maybe it needs to be cut further if it’s attracting foreigners to travel here - it’s a safety net not a lifestyle choice.

While UK citizens abroad do contribute, you ignore that EU citizens contribute here. For example in our NHS and other areas with skills our workforce doesn’t have. Once you roll the dice of racism and xenophobia it’s entirely likely that nationalist forces in other countries will do the same. Can the UK cope with a million pensioners being sent home? Even if not, do we want to facilitate our citizens losing rights in Spain and elsewhere? Increased taxation, medical costs, any other areas they see fit. They can be selective too, send home the poorest, the most ill, etc. Could we cope with that?

Re: Brexit
 

Factories ? What factories ? We don't make anything any longer, Thatcher saw to that . Most migrants are doing work we don't want or won't do eg. care sector, cleaning. There isn't a mass of UK people waiting for these jobs.

Re: Brexit
 

The good news for the few factories that do exist is they will have the lazy Brits who are dossing around on Universal Credit to decide between in future recruitment exercises. No skills, no experience, no work ethic, nothing. If you are losing a job to an unskilled foreigner you aren’t going to be the cream of the crop are you?

As well as that to reduce your competitiveness the Pound will probably slide further. The glorious British manufacturing sector.

More being exhumed just to bury closer to the core of the Earth than a Phoenix from the flames.

Re: Brexit
 

Your first point is a good one. The Government has slashed support for people with children e.g. only the first two can now usually be claimed for.

When Family Allowance (now named Child Benefit) was first introduced, it was essentially a bribe to encourage people to reproduce after the war. No payment was made for the first child, only the second and any subsequent children.

It's always being said that we need more workers to pay for and look after us when we are elderly, so why limit the help available? I think it might very well be a deliberate policy of the Government to import labour to save on the expenditure that you mentioned.

There are certainly cases of welfare abuse by foreigners, but I have no evidence to hand to say whether they are any better or worse than our own people. However, I think it will annoy people more if it's done by those from abroad.

The Government changed the rules so that EU immigrants could no longer come here and sign on straight away, they have to have a job of over 16 hours a week before benefuts can be claimed. One of the ruses that they use to get round this is to become 'self employed' as taxi drivers earning £1 an hour, or a scrap metal collector who hardly finds anything (officially). This entitles them to claim the maximum amount of in work benefits.

It has been claimed that most immigrants contribute positively to the economy, but I dont accept the way that this is calculated. On paper, if someone comes here and gets a job, they may well be taking out less than they are putting in, however, what if they have taken a job that an unemployed person over here would have obtained? In this case, the continuing benefit payments to the third party must be taken into consideration and would usually negate any profit made by letting them live here.

Then there is also the impact of them being here on our public services, housing, resentment caused by a perceived loss of culture by the indigenous population etc.

You also make a good point about the consequences of an army of pensioners being forced to return to the UK. In Spain, for example, if not entitled to free healthcare, pensioners have to pay a basic monthly fee of €157 a month and receive little or nothing in the way of help with prescription costs. If they returned to the UK, all this would have to be met by the UK taxpayer, but I think that overall we would still be better off financially and otherwise.

Perhaps we could exempt pensioners from the trawl as they may have health conditions that benefit from a warmer climate or who have settled abroad?

I personally think that there are pros and cons to staying or leaving the EU, but if we are to leave then ridding ourselves of those who aren't doing anything positive for the UK (or are actually participating in activities that are detrimental to the UK) should be done ASAP.

After talking to various different people from all walks of life, I firmly believe that it is the amount and quality of immigrants that led to most people voting to leave the EU above any other reason.

One of the good things about Mays deal is that those who pass the test to come and work here will still be able to come here, but not indefinitely.

I cannot stress how much automation will change our society and we will face a real problem working out a solution to providing a means of support for much of the indigenous population, let alone those from abroad whose Government's will be facing exactly the same predicament.

Re: Brexit
 

There are approximately 66 million people in the UK and 456 million people in the rest of the EU, so your comparison that their 3 million here versus our 1 million there doesn’t really add up, proportionally...

Also, France, Germany, Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Austria, Sweden, and Finland have been rated higher than the U.K. for healthcare.

Our older U.K. citizens living abroad, as you state, as pensioners will not be paying local income tax, and as older people, on average, require more medical care, they will in fact be more likely to have a negative effect on the local economies.

Re: Brexit
 

You pretty much don’t agree because you are xenophobic. That’s fine, but let’s just call it what it is. You don’t agree with how calculations are done proving the benefits of migration because you don’t like it. You “think” we might not be so bad off if pensioners returned but, as ever, you have no meaningful way of quantifying this. You have spoken to some people, which is reasonable enough, but not of any meaningful value if you live your life in an echo chamber who, for whatever reason, feel the same way as you.

We should exempt pensioners from the trawl? It’s still disgusting you speak in these terms contradicting a promise this country made to 3 million people, but there’s nothing to assume the EU would reciprocate because it suits us. Would the pensioners even be able to afford property in the UK any more? If they’ve sold up, spent some and shared a little with their families they could be coming back to be equally as much a burden on the state as the tiny minority of EU migrants you seek to remove.

I don’t know what you mean by people carrying out activities detrimental to the UK? If you know anyone committing a crime I suggest you report it.

If you believe that a UK government is more likely to save us, either through capability or an active choice, from the downsides of automation then I think you are being naive. No UK government, of either colour, did anything for the people who lost jobs in manufacturing sectors in the 80s and 90s.

Re: Brexit
 

I think it goes to show that a lot more people want to come to Britain than the other way round. I obtained these figures from a Government minister, but Google says:

There are 3.6 million people from the EU living here:

https://www.the3million.org.uk

And this says that there are 1.3 million British people living in the EU:

https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many...-eu-countries/

AIUI, pensioners who have settled in Spain pay 24% of their income in tax (there are no personal allowances or deductions), so they will be paying something even on a modest income. Also, unless exempt, they pay €157 a month (up from €60 a month for those under 65) and 100% of any prescription costs.

I suppose it depends on what is wrong with them and what is available with the Spanish healthcare system. If it's too expensive, they are still entitled to use the UK NHS. If any EU nationals need expensive healthcare whilst in the UK, I doubt that they could be attended to by their home country; the whole thing is so very one sided.

Re: Brexit
 

By “unless exempt” I think for the sake of transparency you should state that receipt of a UK State Pension is presently an exemption criteria. In other words: in the vast majority of cases they aren’t making a contribution over and above income tax.

This exemption could equally be removed: so 1.3 million UK nationals (or the vast majority of) could be asked to stump more up in their retirement because (ironically) we don’t like immigrants! So rather than pay more they will probably come home and try to get treated here.

Re: Brexit
 

No, you didn't.

If you wrote to a Minister, the request for information would have been handled by a junior Aide, who would have asked for the information from the relevant department, and then the Aide would have replied to you with the information (on behalf of the Minister and the Department). It's extremely, extremely unlikely that the Minister has any idea you asked for this information.

If you did it through their Constituency Office, just substitute "Researcher" for "junior Aide"..,.

Re: Brexit
 

They get renewed, lost, stolen etc. In that situation, how do you distinguish between somebody who was resident in the UK on the specified date, and somebody who came here after then? Same goes for U ex-pats in the rest of the EU. There has to be a document that shows not only entitlement to reside, get benefits etc, but to travel freely.

Re: Brexit
 

I didn't write to him, it was stated during a debate about Brexit.

Re: Brexit
 

Well on illegal immigration i say, no ID or proof of who you are you are held on remand until they prove who they are.

Re: Brexit
 

Absolute rubbish as usual - I work in the health care sector and part of my previous role was recruitment these jobs ARE being picked up by English people and NOT migrants, so this utter fallacy that Migrants are only doing Healthcare jobs is an utter lie.

Of course we bloody make stuff - wtf do you continue to tell lie after lie ?

There are loads of factories open near me and in my area. There is a Metal works where I used to live and where I live now, there is a steel factory yard. Both said to be doing really well financially, fancy that!!! :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

https://researchbriefings.files.parl...42/SN01942.pdf

We don’t make as much as we used to, or at least it doesn’t employ as many people in doing so. Page 8 shows a decline from 5.4 million in 1982 to 2.7 million now. Dropping from 21% to 8% of the jobs in the economy.

Re: Brexit
 

Irrelevant to any point I made to Mr K, who said we do not make anything anymore and Migrants only do care job - no they bloody don't. :rolleyes:

I know we don't make as much as we used to - but that's all thanks to being in the cancerous, corrupted EU. They have financially constrained us over the last 40 years - biggest mistake we ever did joining the con job membership club.

Re: Brexit
 

How have the EU been responsible for constraining our manufacturing industries ?? And specifically what is so corrupt about the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Re: Brexit
 

We have the lowest, as a percentage, of the 4 EU Member States in the G20. Somehow the cancer appears to be in Britain, not the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

Er easy, ALL of it...

You tell me where our industries have bloody gone too then and why !?!?

Nothing you Remainers say will extinguish my desire to leave the EU. EVER!!!

---------- Post added at 22:40 ---------- Previous post was at 22:37 ----------

Nope - you have that the wrong way round and always will have while we are in that corrupted club!!!

But keep on trying to sell the stale porkies. (Lies)

Re: Brexit
 

I agree we still have a strong manufacturing sector be it Jaguar LandRover, Unilever or BAE.

But I don't think it's an unreasonable request for you to expand upon your claim that the EU been responsible for financially constraining our manufacturing industries.

Re: Brexit
 

You’re being quite non-specific, other than an obvious dislike of the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

I more than dislike the EU !!!

I want out of that disgusting corrupted club, that has financially constrained us for years!!!

We put more in than we get out, All these Remainers who say, we will lose the grants and EU rebates - it's our fecking Money we're putting in there in the first place FFS!!!

So we put more in, than get out - One of 10 out of 28 who do, so that's 18 other Member States getting more out than they put in and I am being asked what's corrupt about the EU?

Gimme a break. Asking questions like that, takes the fecking piss it does.

Re: Brexit
 

It doesn’t seem very good at corruption if it’s so transparent.

I assume the ten net contributors are democratic countries making a conscious choice that the access to these markets and stability that this ensures is worth the money?

I presume as well you support Scottish independence, as the Barnett formula causes larger amounts of spending per capita there, so England would be better off without?

Re: Brexit
 

The EU is not transparent - now you are another one spouting nothing but lies - The EU rejected to share their expenses of MEP's... I suppose whoever wanted to seek the information could go to ECJ, except they were ones who conveniently ruled against sharing that information...

I stand by what I say and the EU is CORRUPT as hell!!!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8553731.html

Scottish Independence has nothing to do with Brexit, but nice try - Do keep on topic.

Re: Brexit
 

I’m just trying to establish if this is British nationalism or English nationalism driving your thought processes. It doesn’t appear to be a coherent economic or social rationale for a better future.

Re: Brexit
 

Your establishment methods are flawed when all you can do, is tell nothing but fraudulent lies. :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

I really don’t think I’ve said anything in this thread that isn’t true or is verifiably fraudulent.

I think we make a net contribution of about £6bn a year for access to a free trade area into which we export around £274bn of goods, a net fiscal contribution of £20bn by EU migrants to the Treasury and on average contributing £2300 more per year than a UK born adult. It’s all a big merry go round that everyone benefits from in different ways.

The £6bn also acts as a means of compensating some counties where we are taking parts of their skilled workforce, who have desirable qualities critical to our economy in areas such as healthcare.

For reference projected UK Central government spending in 2016-17 was £772bn.

Re: Brexit
 

Well you said the EU is transparent - I provided an example of where they were not being at all transparent and then it uses it's Judicial power to put a block on challenging any further requests - this is total corruption!

Re: Brexit
 

Well detailed expenses claims are an invasion of privacy. If you can establish a pattern of where someone eats, which hotels they use, they could be targeted in any number of ways. It doesn’t necessarily imply corruption without knowing what internal auditing they use and how robust this is.

I’d certainly prefer all politicians, at UK and EU level to simply have flat rate allowances deemed “reasonable” and pay anything else from their salaries. When you see the ridiculous claims put in by our MPs, for example, wallpaper you know if it came out a flat rate allowance they’d have found something cheaper.

I’m expected to commute to work on my own dime so I don’t see why they can’t they factor this into the salary of further afield MEPs.

Re: Brexit
 

One of the factories in the local area is closed. As they could not get enough local staff (very low unemployment area) they used to bring in Polish Bakers, complete with providing them accommodation. Now they have been taken over by a Danish company, their restructure closed it.

Another medical supply company has cut staff and still needs to employ people from the EU out of necessity. The other manufacturer is timber frame buildings, which ironically does not get used in local buildings due to a fixation on "the vernacular" by the council.

The town used to be a hive of industry, from car parts to hat making, machine tools to blankets. Now it is basically a commuter town for London & Oxford.

Now the local industry is care homes and care villages, where yet again overseas staff are recruited.

Re: Brexit
 

Not in the sector I work in.

Either way, that is a recruitment issue that is nothing at all to do with Brexit. Benefit scroungers and work shy folk or cheap migrant Labour, is a separate topic.

Re: Brexit
 

But isn’t cheap migrant labour coming in, because locals don’t want to do the jobs, one of the reasons people voted for Brexit?

Re: Brexit
 

iirc making stuff still accounts for a greater percentage of the economy than say banking but it's something just dismissed as irrelevant and manufacturing is not something we do anymore, when it is

We have all but 100% employment last I heard, healthy economies require an excess of workers moving between jobs or it'll lead at stagnation and decline, where are they going to come from if we as a nation can't generate them?

Re: Brexit
 

Our area voted remain, so perhaps more aware of the value of EU workers given that locals struggle to survive on the average pay for the area due to high housing costs. So locals cannot afford to do the low paying care work and suchlike.

Re: Brexit
 

No

Re: Brexit
 

You could say I work in an industry that could be effected greatly by requlation.

I work in Aviation, and the number of authorised we answer to is a pain. CAA, EASA, CASA, FAA etc.