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Naughty Pierre. |
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Anyway, happy holidays one and all. |
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I travel a lot, in and out of Europe, I’ve never faced a delay due to my passport. I accept that is subjective and anecdotal, but it is my experience. |
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The big question to ask is are we better off now than when we were in the European Union.
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…. AndSpain will suffer for it, I reckon. |
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Give examples, and comparisons, bearing in mind the answer can be wholly subjective, thereby rendering your evidence useless. Good luck! |
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I think the argument can be summarised thus:
Pro-Brexit : We are better of as evidenced by ... but we are being hampered by "Remoaners" who are .... Pro-EU : We are worse of as evidenced by ... and it's made worse by "Xenophobes" who are .... There you go, clear as .....! |
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Most people would use the term "better off" to apply to their personal wealth and experience. There is no subjective dimension to this. Objectively, using the above definition we are not better off. The only discussion is the amount we are poorer and how/when this is mitigated.
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When I queue for hours at Dover Ferry Port, I am only queuing "subjectively". The fruit not on the supermarket shelves due to lack of farm labour, is only not there "subjectively". And so on ... :dunce: |
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I didn’t notice how much the price of the food items affected me, as the food items I bought weren’t affected. I didn’t queue at Dover, went from Hull, no problems at all. The fruit in supermarkets due to producers planning accordingly is also ………….there …..objectively as they planned ahead. And so on :dunce: |
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.. don't forget, don't look up :D |
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Define “we” Am I “better off” or “worse off”, no idea. I haven’t felt any economic pressures due to brexit. But that’s me. As it’s my personal experience and therefore subjective. |
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I'm definitely better off. Through my own efforts. Brexit, Schmexit - it would have been the same for me. Everyone - work hard and don't go on strike, which is counterproductive and gives the likes of Ian the meat and drink on which Remainers thrive. |
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Don’t strike, eat your gruel, lick boot as energy companies and banks trouser billions in profits.
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Solipsism in action… *subjectively |
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You’re just a moaning Remainer. A bad government would have screwed everything up and it’s not on Brexit. It’s not unreasonable to ask what, had we remained in the EU, would have been so much better than the state we are now in. |
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All you’re interested in doing is to deflect away from the question by dwelling on the sentiment I’m expressing about moaning Remainers. We left the EU so that we could fully govern ourselves. That government has big time screwed up has nothing to do with Brexit. |
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The people who promised the sunlit uphill lands couldn’t deliver what they promised - that’s what happens when you have an ill-defined, non-costed deliverable - everyone loses. |
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Not sure I remember “sunlit uplands” being promised.
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Edit: A quick Google found the Minister for The 18th. Century said it at the dispatch box. And here's a clip of him saying it https://youtu.be/OlR1R_vxBB8. Hope that helps. |
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That has nothing to do with the fact that we're no tangibly worse off due than we would have been had there been no Brexit. I'll put it to you Remainers again: Quote:
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No, all the politicians who supported Brexit, then went into Government and didn’t deliver on their promises
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This approach is actually quite representative of the nation as a whole in recent times. ---------- Post added at 13:15 ---------- Previous post was at 13:13 ---------- Quote:
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I am totally rational at all times. I also like to place focus when people like Den can only attack my description of certain Remainers rather than address the actual challenge put forward. That rather oversize, Hughesque image contains some truths in the sense of describing what’s gone downhill since Brexit. I just challenge what negative effect on that list has been caused by Brexit. CRASHED CURRENCY - is that where we sit now? It certainly has had crashed moments, especially after the Brexit vote, but right now I’m seeing levels similar to 2016. PRICE RIUSES - is that entirely due to Brexit? Costs of doing business with the EU have risen, and the costs have been passed on to consumers. What’s should be happening, under a decent investment friendly government, is to work sufficiently hard to increase our wealth. The price rise component due to Brexit has not been unaffordable. NORMALISATION OF LYING - the expressed hopes of the Leave Campaign should not be relegated to LYING. Only Remainers do that. I’m disappointed at the slow pace of growth - mainly due to government incompetence. WORSENING TRADE GAP - Yes, that’s true and it is not beneficial to us. That’s the price of regaining sovereignty from a nasty regime in Brussels that only wants to punish us. Why would we want to be a member of such a regimen? As a member, we could not undo this. THE UNDERMINING OF PARLIAMENT - What’s that got to do with Brexit? If EU federates, then Parliament would be undermined. If you are referring to that clown Boris and that fool Truss, then that’s got nothing to do with Brexit. Self-inflicted (by the Tories) wounds, they were. THE SPLINTERING OF FAMILIES - I never like to see this (in the EU context) and I didn’t know this was a big issue. LOSS OF HIGH INCOME JOBS - Loss? Or non-growth of high income jobs? The latter is due to government incompetence,, not Brexit. THREAT TO PEACE IN IRELAND - what threat? That was a confection created by Varadkar just to make life difficult for the UK. The stupid government swallowed that hook, line and sinker and we now have the ridiculous situation of a North Sea Border. That’s one side to it; the other side is that with wise investment, NI can have the best of both worlds and if I was the NI SOS, I’d be working on that with fervour. THE SHORTAGE OF FARM WORKERS - yes, that’s true; but is that a big reason to have remained in the EU? This problem needs a structural solution that still needs a lot of design. FURTHER ALIENATION OF SCOTLAND - We either have a UK or we don’t. 52/48 represents the democratically expressed view of the UK on a Brexit ticket. Personally, I would have preferred a stronger mandate but there was no constitutional mechanism for the government of the day to have set any margin whereby governing taking forward the Referendum result. The ALIENATION is purely a manipulation mechanism cionfected by the SNP in their stupid pursuit of power. WEAKENING OF OUR SCIENCE BASE - I want to see the government taking a sensible road in rejoins the European science institutions. THE LOSS OF HEALTH COVER IN 27 COUNTRIES - really? What’s the GHIC about? And we can negotiate reciprocity. HIGHER PHONE CHARGES WHEN TRAVELLING - not for O2 users. LOSS OF GDPR PROTECTION. - What loss? GDPR still applies (and it’s far too onerous in some respects). UNCERTAINTY IN GIBRALTAR - there is no uncertainty. Spain is trying it on again and those bustard in Brussels are lending Spain a hand. Why would we want to be in such a corrupt union? LOSS OF INFLUENCE IN THE WORLD - nothing to do with Brexit. The EC wants greater control over foreign policy (VdL’s first speech) which would reduce our influence. What’s happening now regarding our influence is nothing to do with Brexit and a lot to do with world events on which the EU also has no influence. SOARING DEBT - nothing to do with Brexit. All to do with world circumstances made doubly worse by government incompetence. We are where we are due to incompetent government which has imperilled the NHS and it’s nothing to do with BREXIT beyond what I’ve iterated above. |
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There were no other promises on the ballot paper. |
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By that logic, whoever has a majority won’t be held to task for anything, as there are no other promises on the ballot paper at Election time? |
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It wasn’t a general election, were each party puts forward a manifesto. The question was in or out, regardless of any other consequence. But you know that anyway, as does everyone else. |
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In a sane world, the politicians who wished to change the macro economic & societal dna of a G7 country, would bring to the table a cogent plan, providing coherent reasoning why this was good idea for the population as a whole. Yet, as Pierre has so eloquently pointed out, they did none of this. All they focussed on is trying to persuade sufficient floating voters to get over a very low bar. This they did by promising no downside and a lot of upside. They lied ... and here we are, with the diehards now claiming it was not the project's fault but rather the (flawed) implementation. You see for those who always saw this as a holy, religious crusade, the facts & evidence cannot matter. It is the fundamental definition of faith. |
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http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html There are no other promises on the ballot paper. The General Election vote is Labour or Conservative, regardless of any consequence. But you know that, anyway, as does everyone else… |
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The amount of information out there was gargantuan. The government paid for information on what it meant to leave to posted through every door in the nation. To say people didn’t know what they voted for is, and has always been an insult to those that did. The fact that the government has not managed the outcome as they should or could have is no reflection on the wishes of the people. They voted out, not because of sunlit uplands, but because they wanted British issues to be dealt with by the British parliament not the Brussels/Strasberg one. The referendum question was not vote out and get this or vote in and get that. 7 years on and we’re still whining about it, pisses me off. |
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Rebutting simplistic sophistry isn’t whining, it’s pointing out fallacious arguments.
Many years ago, I stated in another thread "we’re all leavers now", and I still believe that - doesn’t give people a "get out of jail" card to talk bolleaux, though… |
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Like this splendid chap: https://inews.co.uk/news/world/brexi...-house-2508493 Quote:
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https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ness-taskforce |
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Fatherless EU laws protecting the employees’ rights and not letting multi-national corporations do what they want with our personal data…
I’ve never understood the whining about Working Time Directive - if employees want to work longer hours, they can just opt out; what the employer can’t do is make them work those hours without agreement. |
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I have read it (many times in the past, having run large teams/departments) - can you give examples of what the actual problems are (besides your stock answer of "too bureaucratic")?
These all look eminently sensible to me… Quote:
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Here’s a handy hint - if you’ve answered it before, why not just link to those posts? |
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Wonder if he walked to work, put his sandwiches in a Sunblest bag and if the children called him Bogie? |
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Careful - He takes no lip off nobody…
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Honestly, jfman, this point about bureaucracy and how it drags down industry are plain to see. You don’t have to be doing it yourself to see how EU bureaucracy impacts businesses negatively unless you are walking around with eyes closed. ---------- Post added at 11:04 ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 ---------- Quote:
Another example - where manual workers signed up for emergency call-outs (for example, to clear snow on the roads) led to all sorts of problems with the additional hours worked on those days and nights, and also the costs involved compared with before. We managed to find ways of making this work after a lot of work, but this effort would not have been necessary had it not been for these regulations, which many employers still find an encumbrance. ---------- Post added at 11:06 ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 ---------- Quote:
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Much like your climate change denial approach - there’s been an ice age more than once it can’t possibly be human - how do you explain the many successful companies that operate within the parameters of the EU, often steamrollering their British counterparts in the global markets? Failed by Government(s) perhaps? ---------- Post added at 16:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:12 ---------- Quote:
If that’s the kind of exploitative working practice the EU directive prevents then I wholeheartedly support it. ---------- Post added at 17:02 ---------- Previous post was at 16:56 ---------- Quote:
Life outside the EU sounds like a South Sudan sweat shop more than sunlit uplands. |
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You really are a piece of work, OB. I hadn’t fully comprehended your hatred of this country, it’s people and it’s history until tonight. I genuinely thought your support for Brexit was some deluded fantasy about a genuinely “Great” Britain. But it wasn’t. You’d just pawn the lot off, raze it to the ground of some venture capitalists could offshore slightly more profits we’d never see again all the while living standards and working conditions go through the floor. |
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If I am required to report to a location stipulated by my employer, as part of my contract of employment, and remain there for eight hours, so its no longer my own time and I am no longer free to choose where to go and who to spend time with, then I am at work and my employer must pay for my time and then has the luxury of giving me tasks to perform. Great if they want to tell me I can sleep on the job but that’s their choice, not mine. |
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No one has explained the benefits of the Working Time Directive to me better than Old Boy has done here! :D
If he's looking for a job, I'm sure Rejoiners would be keen to have him pontificate on other "unnecessary" EU red tape. |
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Having done many many night shifts, no sleeping was done. As Chris succinctly stated Quote:
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I can’t believe it took CCHQ 5 days to come up with that reply.
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The sooner that we can take advantage of our hard-won Brexit freedoms by dispensing with such anti-competitive luxuries, the better. |
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British farmers won't be too happy but many of us will be pleased that the government is kicking this inflation tin can down the alley.
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Based on the evidence in the Standard article, the benefits seem to outweigh the costs of not doing checks but the government has obviously calculated differently. |
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21 out of 22 lorries contained food unfit for consumption, I don't remember this brexit benefit being on the side of a bus, has there ever been a country in the whole of history that has imposed sanctions on themselves?
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The point I’m making is with freedom of movement of goods pre-Brexit, this could have been happening on a massive scale.
You both are making the case for checking of goods coming in from the EU. |
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Loving the knots being tied here :D Securing control over the UK's borders was the dominant theme of the Leave campaign so we want control except when we don't!
Sums up the cake and eat it philosophy perfectly ... |
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Do you mean "Post hoc ergo propter hoc"?
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The "possibly": Maybe subconsciously I've heard your excellent saying and *******ised it somewhat. I've no recollection of that but it's too close a resemblance to fully deny. Well before Brexit I coined a German sounding phrase Gestrugenes Abgeschlossigskeit. That one fools all but the Germans/Austrians ---------- Post added at 21:51 ---------- Previous post was at 21:47 ---------- Quote:
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If you’ve not spent a night on the booze with a failed medic (5th year, who then went on to get his B.Sc, M.Sc, and a D.Phil in Computing) and corrected him on his Latin, you haven’t lived… ;) |
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The truth is starting to come out
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He is pretty good at driving a trolley from side to side through. |
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Great news!
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