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Mr K 27-12-2020 16:48
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36063905)
[In today's Sunday Times, there is a blow-by-blow account of the passage from David Frost's initial day as Chief Brexit Negotiator through to the Christmas Eve "Have we got a deal" question put by Boris to UvdL.

It's behind a paywall, but the lightbulb moment was when UvdL actually twigged on 21-December that Boris was truly prepared to settle for No Deal.

Right up to then, the EU were still trying to force us down their road.
You are of course only getting one side of the story. The major concessions in the last few days were by the UK on fish.

The Tory press are working very hard to spin this for Boris. Lets hope they succeed as a bad deal is better than no deal as Theresa said ;)

Chris 27-12-2020 17:01
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36063909)
You are of course only getting one side of the story. The major concessions in the last few days were by the UK on fish.

The Tory press are working very hard to spin this for Boris. Lets hope they succeed as a bad deal is better than no deal as Theresa said ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me, 3 days ago (Post 36063636)
BBC Reality Check notes that French and Dutch media are being briefed that the UK made major concessions. Considering the stake those countries have in keeping their fishermen in line (especially that Dutch super-trawler that owns something like 20% of England’s quota all by itself) this is unsurprising. I don’t doubt however that the usual suspects will be on here in short order, regurgitating French and Dutch government spin as if it’s the unvarnished truth.
:cool:

nomadking 27-12-2020 17:09
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36063904)
If we don't claim it back, its no fault of Spanish. If anything it says they are more efficient.

I suspect our many drunken and elderly visitors to Spain cost a lot more in healthcare than Spanish visitors do to us.
The bill for those "drunken and elderly [UK] visitors to Spain" gets sent to the UK taxpayer. It doesn't cost the Spanish anything. That is how the system operates.
EHIC S1 scheme for longer term residents.
Quote:
16.A disproportionate number of UK citizens benefit from the S1 scheme. There are only around 1.2 million UK citizens living in other EU countries, compared with around three million EU citizens living in the UK. But some 190,000 of those UK citizens are pensioners, who are more likely to benefit from the S1 scheme, compared to only 5,800 EU/EEA citizens who have registered for the S1 scheme in the UK.
17.On top of its EHIC expenditure, the UK spends approximately £500 million a year in reimbursements to Member States for healthcare provided to pensioners and others who have exported their accumulated benefits. The Department of Health and Social Care accepted that the system was cost-effective for the UK, not least because the cost of treatment overseas was often cheaper than in the UK. For example, Spain’s latest pensioner average cost—despite a recent upward revision—is now €4,173 compared with £4,396 in the UK.
On the other hand they are also not spending their money, including VAT, in the UK.

Sephiroth 27-12-2020 17:14
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36063909)
You are of course only getting one side of the story. The major concessions in the last few days were by the UK on fish.

The Tory press are working very hard to spin this for Boris. Lets hope they succeed as a bad deal is better than no deal as Theresa said ;)
My reading is that the UK side made one concession; our share of the catch reduced from the 80% we demanded to 25%, with an agreement period of 5½ years instead of the 18 the EU originally demanded.

Nothing else was conceded. The Agreement has been constructed, however to ensure that neither side can dictate to the other and that any abrogation by either side will be equally treated by way of arbitration.

A bit of a pity, though, that I won't be seeing the French off with my gunboats!

1andrew1 27-12-2020 17:14
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36063912)
The bill for those "drunken and elderly [UK] visitors to Spain" gets sent to the UK taxpayer. It doesn't cost the Spanish anything. That is how the system operates.
EHIC S1 scheme for longer term residents.
On the other hand they are also not spending their money, including VAT, in the UK.
Good to see they're not being a drain on our hospitals.

Chris 27-12-2020 17:23
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36063914)
My reading is that the UK side made one concession; our share of the catch reduced from the 80% we demanded to 25%, with an agreement period of 5½ years instead of the 18 the EU originally demanded.

Nothing else was conceded. The Agreement has been constructed, however to ensure that neither side can dictate to the other and that any abrogation by either side will be equally treated by way of arbitration.

A bit of a pity, though, that I won't be seeing the French off with my gunboats!
Also, the reduction only applies to the transition period. Once that’s finished we can cut the EU quota to zero if we wish. The treaty stipulates that compensation may be due if we do this; frankly that’s fair enough. The EU trawlermen have built livelihoods in good faith and I see no reason to see them shafted the way ours were in the 1970s. In reality, there’s unlikely ever to be a huge amount of pressure from our domestic fleet for a dramatic increase in quota. There isn’t the hardware or manpower to take advantage of a rapid change. Things could change in time though.

1andrew1 27-12-2020 17:25
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36063911)
:cool:
So British media were briefed that the EU made significant concessions per Seph's summary of The Sunday Times article. French and Dutch media were briefed that the UK made significant concessions per your post of three days ago.

I don't think that anyone can be surprised that each side is claiming victory! Time can be the only true judge. ;) eg let's see the reaction of PSA towards investment in its Vauxhall car plant in Ellesmere Port.

Chris 27-12-2020 17:31
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36063917)
So British media were briefed that the EU made significant concessions per Seph's summary of The Sunday Times article. French and Dutch media were briefed that the UK made significant concessions per your post of three days ago.

I don't think that anyone can be surprised that each side is claiming victory! Time can be the only true judge. ;) eg let's see the reaction of PSA towards investment in its Vauxhall car plant in Ellesmere Port.
I agree - and for that reason I’m not claiming that here in the UK we’re only getting ‘half the story’ or insinuating that whatever is printed in the European press is the actual truth. All the governments with a stake in this have a reason to quell unrest from the interest groups involved.

From what I’ve read so far I think the deal is fair. And I don’t think it’s very likely that PSA will do anything to Ellesmere Port that they weren’t thinking of doing anyway. Car assembly plants cost an absolute freaking fortune to tool up and staff. You don’t shut them down to make a political point (not even if you’re French).

Hugh 27-12-2020 18:10
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36063905)
I got all the way through too (Hugh). And received this email confirmation:





---------- Post added at 14:27 ---------- Previous post was at 14:21 ----------



The EU aren't people at all. They are a bureaucratic institution trying to extend its competencies over the real people.

The real people are the citizens of the 27 countries currently under the EU cosh.

Got it?


---------- Post added at 14:43 ---------- Previous post was at 14:27 ----------

In today's Sunday Times, there is a blow-by-blow account of the passage from David Frost's initial day as Chief Brexit Negotiator through to the Christmas Eve "Have we got a deal" question put by Boris to UvdL.

It's behind a paywall, but the lightbulb moment was when UvdL actually twigged on 21-December that Boris was truly prepared to settle for No Deal.

Right up to then, the EU were still trying to force us down their road.
Here’s a link that should be readable - I subscribe to the iPad version, and it allows a certain number of articles to be shared.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/m...3b134c8c5a5121

Sephiroth 27-12-2020 18:22
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Good one, Hugh.

Chris 27-12-2020 18:42
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
That worked. Thanks Hugh :tu:

It was also very illuminating. Should be required reading on here.

gba93 27-12-2020 20:07
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Many thanks Hugh, a great read.

1andrew1 27-12-2020 20:12
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36063919)
Here’s a link that should be readable - I subscribe to the iPad version, and it allows a certain number of articles to be shared.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/m...3b134c8c5a5121
Thanks for this, Hugh.

Important to note that this only covers the final stage of the negotiations. Is there a similar story to be told around our agreement to exclude the service sector, pay a settlement fee to the EU (£25bn left to pay) and to agree to a border between GB and NI?

Chris 27-12-2020 20:44
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
A key section for me is the admission that inserting treaty-breaking clauses in the Internal Markets Bill, And briefing the Northern Ireland secretary to clearly admit it with the phrase “limited and specific” was a deliberate use of the “madman” strategy ... up to that point the EU simply didn’t believe there was any chance we would walk without a deal (thanks for nothing, Teresa May); after that, they had just enough nagging doubt to start taking our demands seriously.

It’s also interesting how deeply the EU’s Orwellian redefinition of sovereignty runs in that institution. As I’ve said all along, the problem has in large measure been down to their inability to understand what we actually mean by “sovereignty”. I know Orwell and 1984 is over-referenced in situations like this but the redefinition of terms so as to make opposition impossible is a bona fide part of that book. Newspeak as conceived by Orwell.

1andrew1 27-12-2020 21:35
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36063925)
A key section for me is the admission that inserting treaty-breaking clauses in the Internal Markets Bill, And briefing the Northern Ireland secretary to clearly admit it with the phrase “limited and specific” was a deliberate use of the “madman” strategy ... up to that point the EU simply didn’t believe there was any chance we would walk without a deal (thanks for nothing, Teresa May); after that, they had just enough nagging doubt to start taking our demands seriously.

It’s also interesting how deeply the EU’s Orwellian redefinition of sovereignty runs in that institution. As I’ve said all along, the problem has in large measure been down to their inability to understand what we actually mean by “sovereignty”. I know Orwell and 1984 is over-referenced in situations like this but the redefinition of terms so as to make opposition impossible is a bona fide part of that book. Newspeak as conceived by Orwell.
I think our lack of preparations until too late in the day suggested that no deal was not really on the menu. The tinkering with the NI treaty may well have been an attempt to sow some doubts here.

What to me will be fascinating is what happens next. Certainly, in any disputes with the EU on the level playing front, any action the EU takes will have a far bigger impact on the UK than the other way roumd. Equally sovereign should not be confused with equally powerful.

Sephiroth 27-12-2020 22:15
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36063929)
I think our lack of preparations until too late in the day suggested that no deal was not really on the menu. The tinkering with the NI treaty may well have been an attempt to sow some doubts here.

What to me will be fascinating is what happens next. Certainly, in any disputes with the EU on the level playing front, any action the EU takes will have a far bigger impact on the UK than the other way round. Equally sovereign should not be confused with equally powerful.
Still nay-saying, I see. I explained about the light-bulb moment when I introduced the Sunday Times article. Had that not occurred, there would have been no deal.

1andrew1 27-12-2020 22:17
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Something to improve upon?
Quote:
Brexit outrage as New Zealand farmers will have to go through LESS red tape to sell lamb

BRITISH farmers will have to go through more red tape to sell lamb to European markets than New Zealand ones, it has emerged.

...
As usual, though, the devil is in the detail and in the full text of the trade deal published on Saturday morning, it has emerged that New Zealand farmers will have to go through less red tape than Britain, as there is no "equivalence" agreement.

BBC Economics editor Faisal Islam wrote on Twitter: "The food industry, already smarting from events, says the lack of equivalence for Great Britain's agri-food / Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures (SPS) is problematic.

"As it stands they say 'New Zealand has a closer relationship on SPS with the EU than Britain from January 1' with an agreement that limits checks (1 percent) and simplifies paperwork."

Sharing his frustration, a Twitter user wrote: "British farmers now have more red tape to sell lamb to the EU than New Zealand farmers do.

"We’ve put up a border within the UK. We’ve made ourselves poorer and weaker.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/13...ealand-sps-spt

Sephiroth 27-12-2020 22:48
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36063932)
Are you sure about this, Andrew?

If you read Article 4 (Import and placing on the market) in conjunction with Appendices A, B, C & D (page 511) you'll see the equivalences and these include organic live animals and unprocessed animal products.

Am I right?

1andrew1 27-12-2020 23:24
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36063933)
Are you sure about this, Andrew?

If you read Article 4 (Import and placing on the market) in conjunction with Appendices A, B, C & D (page 511) you'll see the equivalences and these include organic live animals and unprocessed animal products.

Am I right?
Not my research, but that of the food sector. Faisal has tweeted this and no one has contradicted him:

Quote:
Lastly food industry, already smarting from events, say lack of equivalence for GB agrifood/ SPS problematic as it stands they say “New Zealand has a closer relationship on SPS with the EU than GB from Jan 1” with an agreement that limits checks (1%) & simplifies paperwork
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/stat...40990239256576

This apparently is the extra red tape. https://www.brexit.gouv.fr/files/liv...a%20France.pdf

OLD BOY 28-12-2020 09:48
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36063932)
Even if this is true, NZ must have to pay considerably more in travel costs. Isn't this related in some way to your proximity argument as to why the EU should apply different conditions to their next door neighbours?

1andrew1 28-12-2020 10:04
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36063947)
Even if this is true, NZ must have to pay considerably more in travel costs. Isn't this related in some way to your proximity argument as to why the EU should apply different conditions to their next door neighbours?
Agreed.

It's frustrating that Faisal Islam's tweet is a bit vague on the source:

Quote:
Lastly food industry, already smarting from events, say lack of equivalence for GB agrifood/SPS problematic as it stands
Who in the food industry is saying this?

papa smurf 28-12-2020 10:13
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36063950)
Agreed.

It's frustrating that Faisal Islam's tweet is a bit vague on the source:



Who in the food industry is saying this?
Er is it Remainers:)

papa smurf 28-12-2020 12:23
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Brexit: EU nations unanimously approve deal https://news.sky.com/story/britons-w...-deal-12173984

Hugh 28-12-2020 12:35
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36063963)
Brexit: EU nations unanimously approve deal https://news.sky.com/story/britons-w...-deal-12173984
You accidently missed off the rest of the headline...

Quote:
as Britons warned over travel insurance, charges and exports

papa smurf 28-12-2020 12:52
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36063965)
You accidently missed off the rest of the headline...
It was no accident,the information has no relevance to the EU 27 agreeing to the agreement.

Once the link is opened the headline is there for all to see, looks like another failed got ya moment;)

Try this one
Brexit LIVE: EU nations unanimously approve Brexit deal - MPs to vote on Wed as SNP rebel
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...johnson-update


Meanwhile

Westminster fire: Firefighters scramble to Houses of Parliament - smoke rises above London

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/13...-latest-update

heero_yuy 28-12-2020 13:05
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36063970)

Westminster fire: Firefighters scramble to Houses of Parliament - smoke rises above London

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/13...-latest-update
Remainers dreams going up in flames. :D

papa smurf 28-12-2020 13:13
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36063972)
Remainers dreams going up in flames. :D
They'll try anything to stop the vote on wed:)



It's ok it's been covered up

In an official statement, the fire brigade confirmed there had been no fire today.

Instead, they revealed it had been smoke caused by a generator.

1andrew1 28-12-2020 14:29
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36063972)
Remainers dreams going up in flames. :D
We left the EU this year. Time to move on.

Sephiroth 28-12-2020 14:40
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36063978)
We left the EU this year. Time to move on.
Hardly. Those idiot Lib Dem MPs are set to vote against the deal. Plus, of course, those lunatic Scottish Nats.

jfman 28-12-2020 14:53
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36063980)
Hardly. Those idiot Lib Dem MPs are set to vote against the deal. Plus, of course, those lunatic Scottish Nats.
Nobody is obliged to back it. The Government have enough votes. It’s a Tory deal, negotiated by Tories for Tories. Hopefully it resolves the schism in their party and they can get on with sorting out the rest of the problems we face.

papa smurf 28-12-2020 14:55
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36063980)
Hardly. Those idiot Lib Dem MPs are set to vote against the deal. Plus, of course, those lunatic Scottish Nats.
I was reading somewhere this morning that some labour remainers will vote against it.

Chris 28-12-2020 14:55
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36063978)
We left the EU this year. Time to move on.
I sincerely doubt any of the extremists on either side are ready to move on.

The Lib Dems are federalists. They are also irrelevant so they can afford a protest vote no matter how intellectually incoherent it is. The SNP ... well what can you say about that shower? They used to have intellectual consistency, prior to 1992 when they were as Eurosceptic as it got. Back then their desire for Scottish sovereignty allowed them to understand the growing threat posed by the EU. Since Alex Salmond turned them into the anyone-but-the-Tories party, they are tragically no longer able to acknowledge the logic of their own position.

If the trade deal promised Scotland a free unicorn that crapped pure gold every Tuesday they’d still find a reason to oppose it, because it’s a Tory project. Their bankruptcy knows no depths.

Sephiroth 28-12-2020 15:20
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36063981)
Nobody is obliged to back it. The Government have enough votes. It’s a Tory deal, negotiated by Tories for Tories. Hopefully it resolves the schism in their party and they can get on with sorting out the rest of the problems we face.
Very true. But this is a national matter.

The Lib Dem position is that the UK could have obtained an extension - btw paying into the EU until (!) a "better" deal could be negotiated. What tripe.

The NATs are just a bunch of whinging troublemakers whose strategy might be to piss the English off so far as to get the people to urge for Scotland to leave the Union. This one is going to get nasty.

Pierre 28-12-2020 15:21
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36063889)
Anyhoo, on a brighter note, EHIC cards are remaining valid until their expiry date (ours expire mid June 2024).

Still time to apply online for yours, which will be valid for 5 years.
Never had or needed one, I use some fanciful abstract idea, called “Travel Insurance”

Chris 28-12-2020 15:27
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36063988)
Never had or needed one, I use some fanciful abstract idea, called “Travel Insurance”
Yeah, I had the old E111 for a school trip to France in 1985, after that any overseas travel was always properly insured.

jfman 28-12-2020 15:31
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36063987)
Very true. But this is a national matter.

The Lib Dem position is that the UK could have obtained an extension - btw paying into the EU until (!) a "better" deal could be negotiated. What tripe.

The NATs are just a bunch of whinging troublemakers whose strategy might be to piss the English off so far as to get the people to urge for Scotland to leave the Union. This one is going to get nasty.
I don’t really see it as a matter of such importance that all parties should back it regardless. There are other options, which while unlikely, do not necessitate no deal if the deal doesn’t have the confidence of Parliament. In all likelihood it will.

We move on.

Sephiroth 28-12-2020 16:04
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36063990)
I don’t really see it as a matter of such importance that all parties should back it regardless. There are other options, which while unlikely, do not necessitate no deal if the deal doesn’t have the confidence of Parliament. In all likelihood it will.

We move on.
But the need to be logical. If a majority of the House agreed with them (albeit unlikely), then there would be No Deal, which nobody wants.

Basically, Lib-Dems, Labour and SNP nay-sayers are whingers for whom there is little respect.

jfman 28-12-2020 16:17
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36063992)
But the need to be logical. If a majority of the House agreed with them (albeit unlikely), then there would be No Deal, which nobody wants.
However they could revisit the scenario if that looked likely, which we all accept it is not.

Quote:
Basically, Lib-Dems, Labour and SNP nay-sayers are whingers for whom there is little respect.
I doubt you are their audience, Seph. They also need to put some space, politically, between themselves and the deal to seek a marginal advantage in future elections. Almost 16 million people voted against Brexit to fight over. For the slightly over 16 million who voted in favour they are unlikely to vote two of those three parties in any case.

OLD BOY 28-12-2020 18:14
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36063978)
We left the EU this year. Time to move on.
Wow! Nice to hear you say that, Andrew. :D

Damien 28-12-2020 18:28
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
What amazes me is the contortions the cybernats are now making to justify the SNP voting against the deal. Not abstaining, voting against.

How can you spend months, years, warning against the dangers of No Deal then vote against a Deal? It's so opportunistic and cynical but nothing ever seems to stick to the SNP.

papa smurf 28-12-2020 18:45
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36064000)
Wow! Nice to hear you say that, Andrew. :D
Not so sure the source is credible :erm:

Chris 28-12-2020 19:08
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36064002)
What amazes me is the contortions the cybernats are now making to justify the SNP voting against the deal. Not abstaining, voting against.

How can you spend months, years, warning against the dangers of No Deal then vote against a Deal? It's so opportunistic and cynical but nothing ever seems to stick to the SNP.
This is because Scottish nationalism has the intellectual rigour of a football chant.

Hugh 28-12-2020 19:14
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36063988)
Never had or needed one, I use some fanciful abstract idea, called “Travel Insurance”
I had/have both.

Mr K 28-12-2020 20:08
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36064008)
This is because Scottish nationalism has the intellectual rigour of a football chant.
Northern Ireland parties feel the same way. One of the rare occasions NI is united.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55462155
Quote:
Northern Ireland's political parties that take their seats at Westminster are set to vote against the UK-EU post-Brexit deal this week.

The Commons will be recalled on Wednesday to allow MPs to vote on the agreement reached on Christmas Eve.

The DUP, the Alliance Party and the SDLP have indicated that they will not support the plan.
An unintended result of Brexit maybe a United Ireland and Scotland going its own way. NI was only a matter of time, but that timing might have been accelerated.

nomadking 28-12-2020 20:20
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36064015)
Northern Ireland parties feel the same way. One of the rare occasions NI is united.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55462155


An unintended result of Brexit maybe a United Ireland and Scotland going its own way. NI was only a matter of time, but that timing might have been accelerated.
But for opposing reasons.
Quote:
The DUP said it would vote against the deal "as a point of principle and not because we supported a no deal option".
"A free trade deal is better than no deal but for Northern Ireland this deal does not undo the detrimental aspects of the [Northern Ireland] Protocol," added the party.
...
John O'Dowd, Sinn Féin's chief whip at Stormont, said it was important the assembly was recalled to "reaffirm our opposition to Brexit and reiterate our call for the full implementation" of the withdrawal agreement and Northern Ireland Protocol.

Mr K 28-12-2020 20:25
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36064019)
But for opposing reasons.
The reasons don't matter it just brings the break up of the UK quicker. Which will be a shame as everyone loses. ( a bit like Brexit).

Carth 28-12-2020 20:34
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Does that mean I can call myself English again instead of British?

papa smurf 28-12-2020 20:43
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36064022)
Does that mean I can call myself English again instead of British?
We will be one step closer to Lincolnshire folk becoming the master race init

jfman 28-12-2020 22:33
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36064002)
What amazes me is the contortions the cybernats are now making to justify the SNP voting against the deal. Not abstaining, voting against.

How can you spend months, years, warning against the dangers of No Deal then vote against a Deal? It's so opportunistic and cynical but nothing ever seems to stick to the SNP.
The deal is not in danger. If it were, then you would have a point. Between the resounding Conservative majority - delivered by the UK electorate to get a deal - and Kier's abstainers (or are they voting in favour?) there's little, no meaningful outcome from the SNP voting against.

It's hardly contortions. We didn't vote for Brexit, we still vote against Brexit. If the deal failed to pass Parliament and the Tories didn't ask for an extension then that's their bus to crash, not the SNPs.

Pierre 28-12-2020 23:00
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36064015)
An unintended result of Brexit maybe a United Ireland .
The thing is it would be subject to a referendum, and the reason these counties remained British was because they wanted to.

If they want to be part of the RoI or GB is up to them, by no means a “fait accompli”.

OLD BOY 29-12-2020 09:31
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36064034)
The deal is not in danger. If it were, then you would have a point. Between the resounding Conservative majority - delivered by the UK electorate to get a deal - and Kier's abstainers (or are they voting in favour?) there's little, no meaningful outcome from the SNP voting against.

It's hardly contortions. We didn't vote for Brexit, we still vote against Brexit. If the deal failed to pass Parliament and the Tories didn't ask for an extension then that's their bus to crash, not the SNPs.
Well if the SNP conspired with others to disable the steering wheel, that doesn't let them off the hook when the bus crashes.

1andrew1 29-12-2020 10:31
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36064072)
Well if the SNP conspired with others to disable the steering wheel, that doesn't let them off the hook when the bus crashes.
That bus comparision sounds like a BoJo metaphor. :D

Whether you like or dislike Ian Blackford and his colleagues or are pleased or upset that the SNP will not vote for a deal it disagrees with, it's hard to call its open decision a conspiracy.

But how will the voting decision of a few opposition parties impact the deal and "crash the bus"?

pip08456 29-12-2020 12:02
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
A non doom & gloom laden bit of news.

Quote:
As expected all four of the UK’s primary mobile network operators, including Three UK, Vodafone, O2 and EE (BT), have now confirmed that they have “no plans” (yet) to remove free roaming when the UK fully leaves the European Union on Thursday 31st December 2020 this week.
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.ph...u-roaming.html

Damien 29-12-2020 12:03
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36064090)
A non doom & gloom laden bit of news.



https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.ph...u-roaming.html
:hyper:

That really does help me quite a bit. :D

Hopefully they don't throttle the data plans more though.

Sephiroth 29-12-2020 12:14
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36064090)
A non doom & gloom laden bit of news.



https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.ph...u-roaming.html
Quote:
As expected all four of the UK’s primary mobile network operators, including Three UK, Vodafone, O2 and EE (BT), have now confirmed that they have “no plans” (yet) to remove free roaming when the UK fully leaves the European Union on Thursday 31st December 2020 this week.
Pip,

Whose yet? Yours or theirs? Sort of important.

papa smurf 29-12-2020 12:18
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36064091)
:hyper:

That really does help me quite a bit. :D

Hopefully they don't throttle the data plans more though.
Does it matter since you won't be allowed out to play in the foreseeable future, it'll be all work and no play till the plandemic is over.

1andrew1 29-12-2020 12:18
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36064091)
:hyper:

That really does help me quite a bit. :D

Hopefully they don't throttle the data plans more though.
I'm with VM which is not on that list. But at the moment, overseas travel is off the agenda anyway! Hopefully, competition will keep VM in line with the Big Four, especially given the future Telefonica connection.

Chris 29-12-2020 12:20
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
The trend is towards reciprocal deals with network operators all over the world to remove roaming charges. It’s unlikely the major networks will ever reintroduce roaming charges in any European country. I think it’s likely in time that some budget operators may do so.

Damien 29-12-2020 12:29
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
I think it'll become a premium feature probably.

Chris 29-12-2020 12:35
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Well let’s be honest it is a premium feature. In the old regime the additional costs of providing service in foreign countries on third party networks have to be spread across the bills of all users whether or not they travel overseas. That’s an especially raw deal for people on a tight budget who choose a budget mobile operator for basic services. The EU’s roaming charges directive was always about creating the illusion of a single territory, building on the principles of free movement and the single market. The reality is that all of us have been paying for the convenience of the few.

Damien 29-12-2020 13:10
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36064108)
Well let’s be honest it is a premium feature. In the old regime the additional costs of providing service in foreign countries on third party networks have to be spread across the bills of all users whether or not they travel overseas. That’s an especially raw deal for people on a tight budget who choose a budget mobile operator for basic services. The EU’s roaming charges directive was always about creating the illusion of a single territory, building on the principles of free movement and the single market. The reality is that all of us have been paying for the convenience of the few.
I would be interested in how much it actually costs networks as opposed to it being easy profit before. Part of the arrangements are reciprocal, our networks piggyback of theirs but then visitors to the UK piggyback of our networks in return. Even if the networks end up paying EU operators they will be then getting payments themselves.

Also, most major networks own European networks too. Vodaphone are global yet used to charge absurd rates to use the same company's networks abroad. O2 are owned by a Spanish operator, Telefónica, who also own other networks in EU nations.

It may be different in some countries which have less developed mobile networks and/or cover more rural communities where the costs become a lot higher but the EU at least has advanced and similar network capabilities.

Anyway, I don't mind it being a premium feature if I get a proper implementation of it. Three used to throttle my connection down to be near unusable whereas on EE I can stream, download and even tether my laptop and get a proper connection.

1andrew1 29-12-2020 13:40
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
I imagine mobile providers' costs are pretty fixed with marginal costs going up in steps when additional capacity is needed.

I think the issues include the fact that mobile networks don't operate 100% owned subsidiaries in every country. Many networks like T-Mobile, Telefonica O2 and Vodafone have focused their investments in fewer countries and formed joint ventures or sold their assets in certain countries instead. Even in countries like Australia, Vodafone only own half of their local affiliate and O2 in Slovakia and the Czech Republic are no longer owned by Telefonica.

Pierre 29-12-2020 14:47
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36064090)
A non doom & gloom laden bit of news.



https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.ph...u-roaming.html
Of course they haven’t and the first one that does automatically puts themselves at a reputational disadvantage.

Damien 29-12-2020 15:10
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
The ERG's **** STAR CHAMBER **** are happy:

Quote:
NEW: Group of Brexiteer MPs/ "Star Chamber" lawyers led by Sir Bill Cash conclude that the PMs Brexit deal "preserves the UK’s sovereignty as a matter
of law and fully respects the norms of international sovereign-to-sovereign treaties"


https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2020/12/1.jpg

TheDaddy 29-12-2020 18:22
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36064123)
Who gives a toss what they think or if they're happy, actually come to think of it why would they give their crappy group the name of court synonymous with disregarding the most basic of human rights

jfman 29-12-2020 18:47
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36064072)
Well if the SNP conspired with others to disable the steering wheel, that doesn't let them off the hook when the bus crashes.
Their voters won't see it that way.

---------- Post added at 18:47 ---------- Previous post was at 18:43 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36064121)
Of course they haven’t and the first one that does automatically puts themselves at a reputational disadvantage.
They do indeed, but the likelihood will be that if there increased costs they will just absorb them across the price plans of the entire customer base.

I do say "if" of course as the owners of networks are often work across borders. So while Vodafone or Telefonica might be well placed in countries where they have a presence not all networks and all countries will be in the same boat.

mrmistoffelees 29-12-2020 19:24
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
£6 per day to use Vodafone allowance in Turkey, US & the Far East

I’m glad work pick up my bill

Sephiroth 29-12-2020 22:14
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55479354

The British Sausage is in trouble!

Quote:
UK sausage makers face EU export ban

gba93 29-12-2020 22:29
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36064191)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55479354

The British Sausage is in trouble!
Shades of Yes, Minister and the Euro-Sausage :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzeDZtx3wUw

Chris 29-12-2020 22:46
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Seemingly we’re the only ones exporting raw sausages and other raw processed meats. I imagine it’s the sort of thing the EU would have liked to have banned and we’ve solved the problem for them by leaving.

There are solutions - the sausages can be exported frozen (which is safer anyway) or cooked.

Sephiroth 30-12-2020 10:11
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
I recall having an "English" breakfast in Sydney some time ago. The waitress asked me how I enjoyed the breakfast; I replied first class except for the sausages. Upon her enquiry I replied that the sausages contained too much meat.
She duly replied calling me a "whinging Pom".

When I worked for 3 years in Poland, I brought a pack of British sausages in with me and served them up to my team together with milked tea ("herbata po Angielsku).
They loved it.

The French, who are quirky - they understand. The Germans are clueless about British gastronomic preferences having lost their past understanding of the British Kipper, preferring to process herring in a totally different way.

In Kaiserslautern in the Rhineland, the Kipper-Hof is the nearest I can find to the word "Kipper" in German gastronomy. Other than that, "Kipper" is an entiorely British affair. Smoked Herring in the EU doesn't taste a jot like Kippers.

But Kippers, being cured unlike the raw British sausage, no doubt can be exported to the EU as an example of British gastronomic elegance.

1andrew1 30-12-2020 10:28
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
I can't see an obvious solution to this.
Quote:
Brexit paperwork threatens Scotland’s luxury seafood business

Last week’s long-awaited Brexit deal spared UK seafood exporters from potentially crippling tariffs on shipments to the EU, but on the banks of Scotland’s scenic Loch Fyne, Jamie McMillan is hardly celebrating.

From Friday, new paperwork required because of Brexit threatens to throw a wrench into the finely tuned export logistics system that Mr McMillan, managing director of Lochfyne Langoustines, relies on to get his live langoustines and brown crabs to high-paying customers across Europe.

The need for export health certificates costing up to £95 for every consignment and the potential for border delays threatens the survival of the family business that employs 22 people around the Argyll village of Tarbert, Mr McMillan said.

“There’s been a deal, but it doesn’t matter . . . We are still going to be faced with health certificate costs, increased paperwork costs and possible delays at the border,” he said.

“I don’t know if I will be in business by the 14 January . . . we are on the brink.”
Elsewhere in the article:
- New procedures likely to increase costs by 20%
- Checks will add an hour to travel time to the crucial trading market of Boulogne-sur-Mer. This is on top of any unknown delays in the English channel
- UK is postponing health check on imports rom the EU for six months but recipocitry has not been negotiated despite pleas from 11 industry groups.
https://www.ft.com/content/f53b8b14-...f-14fde1e50865

Hom3r 30-12-2020 10:59
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
That idiot Ian Blackford needs gagging, can he say anything without whining on and on and on and on, about independence?


As pointed out, but he still doesn't get it that if Scotland left the Union and somehow manage to get into the EU they would have even less fishing rights than they will have from Friday.

Damien 30-12-2020 11:20
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36064232)
I recall having an "English" breakfast in Sydney some time ago. The waitress asked me how I enjoyed the breakfast; I replied first class except for the sausages. Upon her enquiry I replied that the sausages contained too much meat.
She duly replied calling me a "whinging Pom".
People keep getting English breakfasts wrong. They don't understand part of the appeal is grease and dodgy sausages.

Sephiroth 30-12-2020 11:22
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 36064240)
That idiot Ian Blackford needs gagging, can he say anything without whining on and on and on and on, about independence?


As pointed out, but he still doesn't get it that if Scotland left the Union and somehow manage to get into the EU they would have even less fishing rights than they will have from Friday.
Much as I disagree with Blackford's politics, I thought it was a skilfully crafted speech well delivered.

Of course his hypocrisy about fishing quotas does stand out. But it was nevertheless worth hearing.

Chris 30-12-2020 11:33
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36064242)
Much as I disagree with Blackford's politics, I thought it was a skilfully crafted speech well delivered.

Of course his hypocrisy about fishing quotas does stand out. But it was nevertheless worth hearing.
It’s unlikely that he wrote it in that case (or had much to do with it at all, beyond actually reading it out). He’s vastly inferior to his predecessor as a parliamentarian.

papa smurf 30-12-2020 11:52
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36064245)
It’s unlikely that he wrote it in that case (or had much to do with it at all, beyond actually reading it out). He’s vastly inferior to his predecessor as a parliamentarian.
To be honest i doubt most of them could get beyond Ugg;)

Pierre 30-12-2020 12:39
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36064242)
Much as I disagree with Blackford's politics, I thought it was a skilfully crafted speech well delivered.

Of course his hypocrisy about fishing quotas does stand out. But it was nevertheless worth hearing.
You must have listened to different speech than I did! Usual hypocritical garbage from the SNP

Mick 30-12-2020 14:44
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
BREAKING: MPs overwhelmingly back EU-UK trade deal ahead of end of transition period by 521 to 73

Damien 30-12-2020 15:15
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
So now what do we all talk about?

papa smurf 30-12-2020 15:19
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36064283)
So now what do we all talk about?
The 73 who wanted no deal.

Carth 30-12-2020 15:22
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36064283)
So now what do we all talk about?

Oh I'm sure there will still be lots of negative media articles, farcebook posts and twitty twitter tweets for some people to get their teeth into ;)

All is not lost for those who still wish it had been different :D

Chris 30-12-2020 15:23
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36064283)
So now what do we all talk about?
The months of carping from those who are going to keep telling us how awful it is that they have to fill in a couple of forms before they can sell their langoustines to the French. Their continuing inability to weigh up their minor inconvenience against the enormous opportunities now before us. The list is probably endless. The Europhile establishment hasn’t given up yet. Not by a long way.

Damien 30-12-2020 15:26
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
I was thinking of something that isn't EU related such as 'Is Michael McIntyre funny?'

Obviously, the answer is no but you might get some deluded fools who think otherwise and that could be good for a few years of anger.

Carth 30-12-2020 15:39
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
aah I see, so something along the lines of "does Emmerdale reflect true life situations in the Yorkshire Dales?" for example.

This could actually warrant a new thread topic :D

papa smurf 30-12-2020 15:44
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Will anyone think about the poor old English banger, doomed to the frozen arse end of a freezer truck :(

jonbxx 30-12-2020 18:01
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36064289)
The months of carping from those who are going to keep telling us how awful it is that they have to fill in a couple of forms before they can sell their langoustines to the French. Their continuing inability to weigh up their minor inconvenience against the enormous opportunities now before us. The list is probably endless. The Europhile establishment hasn’t given up yet. Not by a long way.
It’s pretty bad when you have a catalogue running in to the hundreds of thousands of items and over 400,000 order lines per year. That’s quite a bit of a minor inconvenience. It does at least align trade with the EU so it is just as inconvenient as trading with all other nations in terms of customs formalities

jfman 30-12-2020 18:27
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Redwood voted against what was his gripe?

Hugh 30-12-2020 18:47
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36064336)
Redwood voted against what was his gripe?
He and Owen Paterson abstained.

I believe he had concerns that the EU had too much power in the deal.

Sephiroth 30-12-2020 18:48
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36064336)
Redwood voted against what was his gripe?
JR abstained. His gripe was what he saw as weasel wording (my interpretation) around how we actually take control of matters kicked down the road - particularly in fishing.


EDIT: Yes - what Hugh said.

1andrew1 30-12-2020 19:54
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36064338)
He and Owen Paterson abstained.

I believe he had concerns that the EU had too much power in the deal.
Probably waking up to the fact that sovereignty ≠ power.

Hugh 30-12-2020 21:15
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
So, how long before the ERG start pushing for greater divergence and eventually for an end to the entire deal?

papa smurf 30-12-2020 21:22
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36064345)
So, how long before the ERG start pushing for greater divergence and eventually for an end to the entire deal?
5years and we wash our hands of them.

Mr K 30-12-2020 21:29
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36064347)
5years and we wash our hands of them.
The Erg ?
Probably as there will have been a GE in 5 years ;)

As for fish after 5 years, the EU will hit us with tariffs if they don't continue to get their share. Read the "deal', no one else has.....

papa smurf 30-12-2020 21:31
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36064348)
The Erg ?
Probably as there will have been a GE in 5 years ;)

As for fish after 5 years, the EU will hit us with tariffs if they don't continue to get their share. Read the "deal', no one else has.....
The EU

Mr K 30-12-2020 21:44
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36064349)
The EU
As they are our largest trading partner if we've 'washed our hands of them' , then we're in trouble.

Time to wake up to reality. When we do take back control, who to blame then? :confused:
Surely not our talented Govt? Priti Patel, Gavin Williamson, Alok Sharma, Prattcock, Bozza., who can fail, with a team like that?

Chris 30-12-2020 21:56
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36064345)
So, how long before the ERG start pushing for greater divergence and eventually for an end to the entire deal?
Probably not very long. But that’s part of the democratic debate in a sovereign country isn’t it. They may or may not make their case. Our rules may or may not diverge, we may in time see tariffs or quotas or we may not. We may take decisions about any of these things because we are no longer bound by the entire acquis communautaire. Which was the entire point of Brexit. Personally I’m happy with that.

Mick 30-12-2020 23:47
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
BREAKING: The House of Lords has approved The EU Future Relationship Bill and now awaits Royal Assent from the Queen to become law.

Dave42 31-12-2020 01:19
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Boris Johnson's Brexit deal has been given royal assent by the Queen after MPs and Peers approved the Bill in Parliament on Wednesday.

The bill was fast-tracked through the House of Commons in just over four hours, despite protests from the SNP.

It then moved to the House of Lords where the legislation received an unopposed third reading by Peers.

The legislation was then given royal assent by the Queen at 12:25am on Thursday morning.

The 448 majority in the Commons comes after Labour MPs were whipped to vote in favour of the deal, with Sir Keir Starmer arguing a "thin deal" was better than a No Deal Brexit.

After receiving the Monarch's approval, it will take effect at 11pm on Thursday.


https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/uk/brexit...ns-trade-deal/

OLD BOY 31-12-2020 11:52
Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 
Ooh, it’s suddenly gone eerily quiet!


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