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TheDaddy 20-12-2018 21:45
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35976260)
I don't think the last election tells us anything to do with Brexit. Voters had moved on from the issue and most of the campaign was about domestic politics.

---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:42 ----------



The problem with this is referendums are designed to settle longer-term issues that require fundamental changes. It's not so easy to keep flipping back and forth on if we're in the EU or if Scotland is independent.

I think there needs to be a real change in circumstances and real public support to hold another referendum. I don't really support one on the EU.

That said I think Brexit shows why the last one was a problem. The country is split, 52-48, on a huge change which ideally would require a lot of public support and tenacity to push though. The Government is struggling in part because of that spilt but also IMO because they know they'll be held responsible for any problems after the vote. The public is rarely willing to accept their responsibility problems that happen.
Most voters and members of the public have moved on. I'm bored to death of the whole thing yet none of those domestic issues voted for have been addressed because the fanatics on both sides are so intransigent they cannot accept anything other than their particular hard line dogma and hang the consequences, if they really gave a toss about the will of the people or the people's vote it wouldn't have come to two years plus of nothing with a whole load more nothing kicked down the road to not be dealt with later. Never have so manys lives been put on hold because of so few and I hope it's not forgotten

ianch99 20-12-2018 21:51
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35976235)
Nope ... but I do have a very fetching pair of ruby slippers. :D
and the stripey socks? :)

---------- Post added at 21:51 ---------- Previous post was at 21:48 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35976280)
Sudden? It’s legitimacy has been getting questioned by some since June 24, 2016.
and before this date ...

Damien 20-12-2018 21:56
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35976281)
Most voters and members of the public have moved on. I'm bored to death of the whole thing yet none of those domestic issues voted for have been addressed because the fanatics on both sides are so intransigent they cannot accept anything other than their particular hard line dogma and hang the consequences, if they really gave a toss about the will of the people or the people's vote it wouldn't have come to two years plus of nothing with a whole load more nothing kicked down the road to not be dealt with later. Never have so manys lives been put on hold because of so few and I hope it's not forgotten
It probably would have taken two years even if the country was fully behind it and even then longer still as we pivot the economy away from the European single market and to whatever it is people envision comes next. Maybe it would be a bit quicker to get it past Parliament but a lot of process has been the Government dealing the EU without Parliament's involvement.

This isn't a simple thing we're doing.

And I agree it's been bad that other things have been put on hold. One of the arguments for May's deal is that we get beyond this part of the process.

---------- Post added at 22:56 ---------- Previous post was at 22:54 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35976278)
I take it that this sudden, rather desperate attempt to call the legitimacy of the 2016 referendum into question is the first sign that some people are moving closer to accepting that Brexit is actually happening and nothing that occurs between now and next March will stop it.
I'm not calling the legitimacy of the referendum into question. It was legal e.t.c. I was just saying the close result is a problem for the government. Just under half the country being against what you're doing is hardly ideal. Imagine if the Scottish referendum had gone 51-49% to Leave or something, trying to build a new country that almost half of it didn't want to do.

Chris 20-12-2018 22:03
Re: Brexit
 
I didn’t mean you ;). There are however several members here who have fairly suddenly veered the debate onto the legitimacy of the vote held more than 2 years ago, whereas until today the discussion was about ways Brexit could yet be stopped, or at least delayed or watered down. To me it sounds like the penny has finally dropped.

jfman 20-12-2018 22:09
Re: Brexit
 
I was only pointing how to have an orderly and decisive referendum, just as I’ve pointed out other things that would have been desirable for Brexit (e.g. a strong government following the 2017 GE, parties with a clear negotiating position, not triggering A50 until we were ready if going for no deal).

I still think it’ll be delayed, A50 extended, stopped or watered down. With Parliament heading into recess though not much is liable to change before the “meaningful vote”. I’ve always said for extension to be viable it has to be late in the process.

Pierre 20-12-2018 22:56
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35976189)
Sadly I think deep down the most committed leave voters know that another referendum would be lost.
I wouldn’t be so sure, just exactly what has happened since the vote to change people’s minds?

Being called stupid? Being called racist? Being told you got it wrong? Being told your democratic choice is invalid?

Many, probably most, did not vote for economics, and I see little argument other than economics being made, nothing has been done to address other people’s issues.

And throughout this, has the EU made themselves any more attractive?

Those wanting a second referendum better be 100% sure, because if they think they’re going to walk it, like they did 2016, and get another bloody nose that’ll be the end of it.

It would depend on the question.

In my mind the question would have to be the same as in 2016.

ianch99 20-12-2018 23:01
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35976288)
I didn’t mean you ;). There are however several members here who have fairly suddenly veered the debate onto the legitimacy of the vote held more than 2 years ago, whereas until today the discussion was about ways Brexit could yet be stopped, or at least delayed or watered down. To me it sounds like the penny has finally dropped.
No sudden veering. I have mentioned this point a number of times since 2016 ... maybe you have me blocked ;)

Pierre 20-12-2018 23:02
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35976251)
the people voted for a vast majority remain parliament after the referendum though
No they didn’t

jfman 20-12-2018 23:04
Re: Brexit
 
You don’t necessarily have to change anyone’s minds. A sizeable amount of non-voters first time round to get involved and shifting demographics could be enough to sway it.

Like a US election the actual challenge is getting the most people out, not necessarily convince anyone to switch. Those wanting another referendum don’t need to be 100% sure: they literally have nothing to lose at this stage. They aren’t getting what they want by any other means.

Pierre 20-12-2018 23:14
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35976265)
It really isn’t a subject designed to be decided by a wafer thin public vote.
.
Is 4% wafer thin? What margin is acceptable to you?

0.1% is wafer thin, I would argue.

Perhaps following the last election all these seats should have been rerun, as they didn’t win by enough votes?

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/ge...onstituencies/

---------- Post added at 23:14 ---------- Previous post was at 23:11 ----------

jfman 20-12-2018 23:18
Re: Brexit
 
I would describe something winning by 52-48 as wafer thin, yes. It requires a minor shift in demographics or public opinion to give a 48-52 result in the other direction. Which I’d also call wafer thin.

You’ve also removed more of my post where I frame how to define a clear will of the people over a sustained period of time to pick on one narrow point, which isn’t really helpful to the discussion.

It’s really not important the extent we disagree over the definition of wafer thin.

Those seats will get another go, no later than 2022.

Pierre 20-12-2018 23:31
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35976304)
You don’t necessarily have to change anyone’s minds. A sizeable amount of non-voters first time round to get involved and shifting demographics could be enough to sway it.
“Could”. But do you think the quality of debate in the last two years, from our politicians and others has been of the quality to engage and enthuse.

And these demographics. Yes 700,000 thousand leavers next to deaths door have now slipped the mortal coil to be replaced by Remain teenagers.........it’s very convenient and I wouldn’t bet the farm on it.


Quote:
Like a US election the actual challenge is getting the most people out.
Indeed, and they would revert to project fear. But I can already see the campaigns.

What was it now planes won’t fly the day after no deal Brexit?...... as predicted yes they will.

The EU, as expected, will not do anything that damages their own interests.

---------- Post added at 23:31 ---------- Previous post was at 23:26 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35976310)
I would describe something winning by 52-48 as wafer thin, yes.
What is an acceptable margin then?

Quote:
It requires a minor shift in demographics or public opinion to give a 48-52 result in the other direction. Which I’d also call wafer thin.
Most likely as least 1.3 million

Dave42 20-12-2018 23:32
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35976303)
No they didn’t
yes they did why you think vast majority of parliament is remain supporting who put them there the people

djfunkdup 20-12-2018 23:33
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35976313)
yes they did why you think vast majority of parliament is remain supporting who put them there the people
ROFL :D:D:D

Dave42 20-12-2018 23:34
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by djfunkdup (Post 35976314)
ROFL :D:D:D
who you think put them there like

jfman 20-12-2018 23:34
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35976311)
“Could”. But do you think the quality of debate in the last two years, from our politicians and others has been of the quality to engage and enthuse.
It could equally have put some people off. A waste of everyone’s time as millions slip further into poverty. That’s why the “wafer-thin” majority is in a very precarious state.

Quote:
And these demographics. Yes 700,000 thousand leavers next to deaths door have no slipped the mortal coil to be replaced by Remain teenagers.........it’s very convenient and I would bet the farm on it.

Indeed, and they would revert to project fear. But I can already see the campaigns.

What was it now planes won’t fly the day after no deal Brexit?...... as predicted yes they will.

The EU, as expected, will not do anything that damages their own interests.
I’ve never used a line about planes, so I’m not going to comment on it.

The EU will not do anything to damage their own interests I agree. However where common interests end and the interests of the EU begin isn’t clearly defined, so there’s no guarantee everything will go smoothly in other areas.

Pierre 20-12-2018 23:35
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35976313)
yes they did why you think vast majority of parliament is remain supporting who put them there the people
They didn’t vote on their individual potential candidates personal views on Brexit.

They voted on party manifestos, both of Tory and Labour manifestos were Leave manifestos.

Dave42 20-12-2018 23:37
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35976317)
They didn’t vote on their individual potential candidates personal views on Brexit.

They voted on party manifestos, both of Tory and Labour manifestos were Leave manifestos.
and as said before lots of manifestoes commitments are ignored

jfman 20-12-2018 23:44
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35976311)
What is an acceptable margin then?
I’ve framed my stance on how these things should be managed over a longer term elsewhere.

I do however believe when politicians frame things as once in a generation they hope for decisive results in excess of 60-40.

Again my opinion isn’t really of any consequence as to whether a second referendum happens or not.

Quote:
Most likely as least 1.3 million
Between general elections voter swings often far exceed that figure.

Pierre 20-12-2018 23:46
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35976316)
I’ve never used a line about planes, so I’m not going to comment on it.
Ok but I will directly put to you that right up until days ago, Project Fear on the Remain side we’re citing that planes wouldn’t fly amongst others. The EU have made concessions in the event of no deal for up to a year in areas that would impact them.

Proof that in the event of no deal many things could be negotiated very quickly.

My expectation is, that as no deal looms, the EU will move ( or do something) about the backstop. It still may not get through, but I can’t see the EU not moving.

But May has to do more to prove to the EU that if they move, she can get the deal over the line.

She has a lot to do.

1andrew1 20-12-2018 23:47
Re: Brexit
 
Good to see Putin is not too modest to share some advice for Theresa May.
Quote:
Not to implement Brexit now would be to repudiate “direct democracy”, he said, adding: “Is it democracy not to care about this Brexit and continue voting until someone is happy with the result?”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8692606.html

Pierre 20-12-2018 23:50
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35976318)
and as said before lots of manifestoes commitments are ignored
Yes but manifestos are publicised, manifestos are what prospective candidates run on.

I don’t recall all the individual candidates from all parties advertising what their own views on Brexit were.

I recall all Tory and Labour candidates saying they would respect the result of the referendum.

Dave42 20-12-2018 23:52
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35976320)
Ok but I will directly put to you that right up until days ago, Project Fear on the Remain side we’re citing that planes wouldn’t fly amongst others. The EU have made concessions in the event of no deal for up to a year in areas that would impact them.

Proof that in the event of no deal many things could be negotiated very quickly.

My expectation is, that as no deal looms, the EU will move ( or do something) about the backstop. It still may not get through, but I can’t see the EU not moving.

But May has to do more to prove to the EU that if they move, she can get the deal over the line.

She has a lot to do.
you do know article 50 is legal document about leaving EU right read paragraph 3


Article 50


1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

there in legal we legal form text we leave every treaty include one on aviation ect in a no deal Brexit so your wrong

Pierre 20-12-2018 23:58
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35976319)
I do however believe when politicians frame things as once in a generation they hope for decisive results in excess of 60-40.
.
I actually agree for decisions of this nature a 50/50 vote is too simplistic. It needed to be determined that the overwhelming will of the nation was to move in a certain direction that is beyond question.

The biggest issue with Brexit, is not that leave won, but they won by a perceived marginal victory and therefore it was open season on the result.

jfman 20-12-2018 23:59
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35976320)
Ok but I will directly put to you that right up until days ago, Project Fear on the Remain side we’re citing that planes wouldn’t fly amongst others. The EU have made concessions in the event of no deal for up to a year in areas that would impact them.

Proof that in the event of no deal many things could be negotiated very quickly.

My expectation is, that as no deal looms, the EU will move ( or do something) about the backstop. It still may not get through, but I can’t see the EU not moving.

But May has to do more to prove to the EU that if they move, she can get the deal over the line.

She has a lot to do.
Planes fly in two directions.

EU citizens fly here, we fly to the EU. It’s not a quick win for the EU to cost their own airlines business and inconvenience their own citizens in the process.

Some areas will be more leveraged.

Pierre 21-12-2018 00:01
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35976324)
you do know article 50 is legal document about leaving EU right read paragraph 3


Article 50


1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

there in legal we legal form text we leave every treaty include one on aviation ect in a no deal Brexit so your wrong
http://www.cityam.com/270797/flights...-event-no-deal

jfman 21-12-2018 00:05
Re: Brexit
 
Hang on if I read that right the EU can change their mind after 12 months? (This isn’t an aspect I’ve been following). It reads like something the EU are parking rather than resolving. Like the backstop.

pip08456 21-12-2018 02:04
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35976330)
Hang on if I read that right the EU can change their mind after 12 months? (This isn’t an aspect I’ve been following). It reads like something the EU are parking rather than resolving. Like the backstop.
If I were you I'd start following it as what has previously been put out by "Project Fear" is wrong.

Airspace accessibilty works both ways there are many transatlantic EU flights that need access to UK airspace. They can either change their mind after 12mths and go by longer routes or come to an aviation deal.

jfman 21-12-2018 05:58
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35976334)
If I were you I'd start following it as what has previously been put out by "Project Fear" is wrong.

Airspace accessibilty works both ways there are many transatlantic EU flights that need access to UK airspace. They can either change their mind after 12mths and go by longer routes or come to an aviation deal.
That’s not what the article says though. It only says we have a short term interim agreement. Which makes sense, this is the kind of thing people would blame the EU for which given the chances of a second referendum they can’t risk antagonising the public as flights are arranged months in advance.

Something with a shorter lead in is more likely to be where it goes wrong first. Also somewhere the blame is more likely to fall on the UK Government for being unprepared.

denphone 21-12-2018 08:37
Re: Brexit
 
Another Cabinet minister likely to quit cabinet if UK heads for no-deal.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ds-for-no-deal

Quote:
The justice secretary, David Gauke, has said he would find it “very difficult” to remain in Theresa May’s government if the UK appeared on course to crash out of the European Union without a deal.
Quote:
The prime minister is battling to maintain cabinet discipline as senior ministers set out rival plans for dealing with the potential rejection of her Brexit plan next month.

Damien 21-12-2018 09:46
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35976299)
Those wanting a second referendum better be 100% sure, because if they think they’re going to walk it, like they did 2016, and get another bloody nose that’ll be the end of it.
Yeah I don't think a second referendum is a slam dunk at all for Remain. The advantage it'll have is I suspect the youth turnout will be a lot higher. It was higher for the General Election and it's unlikely they'll be so apathetic this time. Corbyn himself I think is partly succeeding because young people are angry.

But on the other hand the act of calling the referendum itself might spark a reaction. The Vote Leave people are think of 'Tell them again' as a slogan by some polling that's been seen and will lean heavily into the story of their vote being ignored by the 'elite'.

papa smurf 21-12-2018 10:33
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35976313)
yes they did why you think vast majority of parliament is remain supporting who put them there the people
Like mp Anna Soubry mp for Broxtow

the people of broxtow voted 45.4% remain and 54.6% leave in the referendum
she has never accepted the result in fact she's gone out of her way to overturn it .

Sephiroth 21-12-2018 10:36
Re: Brexit
 
@Damien - you say that the “young people are angry”. And here’s the problem: young people get angry at that age about matters that wouldn’t trouble them later, in particular when they are wiser and less altruistic.

Anyway, there was a referendum in 2016 and the result was clear. LEAVE. But some of the losers want to upstage that decision and I find that to be undemocratic.

As to the parliamentarians, I wish a pox upon them, particularly Labour for being totally unhelpful to the nation in their own political interest.



---------- Post added at 10:36 ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35976356)
Like mp Anna Soubry mp for Broxtow

the people of broxtow voted 45.4% remain and 54.6% leave in the referendum
she has never accepted the result in fact she's gone out of her way to overturn it .
.... and she needs speaking to.

papa smurf 21-12-2018 10:37
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35976357)
@Damien - you say that the “young people are angry”. And here’s the problem: young people get angry at that age about matters that wouldn’t trouble them later, in particular when they are wiser and less altruistic.

Anyway, there was a referendum in 2016 and the result was clear. LEAVE. But some of the losers want to upstage that decision and I find that to be undemocratic.

As to the parliamentarians, I wish a pox upon them, particularly Labour for being totally unhelpful to the nation in their own political interest.



---------- Post added at 10:36 ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 ----------



.... and she needs speaking to.
If anyone can catch her when she's sober.

denphone 21-12-2018 10:41
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35976359)
If anyone can catch her when she's sober.
Not like this l am sure you would agree..

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...porters-hitler

Hugh 21-12-2018 10:49
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35976357)
@Damien - you say that the “young people are angry”. And here’s the problem: young people get angry at that age about matters that wouldn’t trouble them later, in particular when they are wiser and less altruistic.

Anyway, there was a referendum in 2016 and the result was clear. LEAVE. But some of the losers want to upstage that decision and I find that to be undemocratic.

As to the parliamentarians, I wish a pox upon them, particularly Labour for being totally unhelpful to the nation in their own political interest.



---------- Post added at 10:36 ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 ----------



.... and she needs speaking to.
You may wish to look up "condescending" in the dictionary...

Getting older does not necessarily equate with getting wiser - some people are fixed in their views, and nothing will change their mindset; people get wiser by learning more, not by getting older.

Not all older people are "less altruistic", aka "more selfish", and I know many of my age group that are angry/passionate about matters affecting this country; perhaps you are conditioned/influenced by those you mix/socialise with.

ianch99 21-12-2018 11:25
Re: Brexit
 
It getting silly now:

Change diet to cope with food delays after no-deal Brexit, Britons told

(paywall)

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/stock-ma...,-retail-surge

Quote:
Officials are planning to tell Britons to change what they eat in the event of a chaotic Brexit because Whitehall predicts that some sources of fresh food from European Union countries would be cut off. The government has begun detailed planning on food supplies if Britain leaves without a deal and has identified a number of sites for massive hangars to stockpile food, including one near Carlisle and others in Scotland and on the south coast. - The Times


---------- Post added at 11:25 ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35976360)
Not like this l am sure you would agree..

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...porters-hitler
The problem is that Brexit has emboldened the racists and facists among us and this is the result.

Quote:
Someone who seemed to be holding the camera asked Soubry why she backs a second Brexit referendum, adding: “But we already had a vote. You lost the people’s vote. You are a traitor. You are a traitor to this country. You are on the side of Adolf Hitler.”

A protester called James Goddard, seen at a number of similar protests around Westminster in recent days, appeared to subsequently identify himself as the person shouting the abuse.

When Soubry tweeted that the protesters had expressed support for Hitler, Goddard replied to say: “Lying trollop, I personally told you that you’re doing the dirty work of Adolf Hitler, you morally repugnant *******.”

Goddard regularly broadcasts live video to his Facebook page, and solicits donations via Paypal. He has been seen at other protests, including the brief blockade of Westminster Bridge.

He has also been identified as a man who gave a speech at a rally in the summer supporting the then-jailed far-right activist Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, who styles himself Tommy Robinson.

Goddard has also posted anti-Muslim messages on the social media site Gab, which is popular with far-right users. In one message he said, “wherever Islam exists you will find murder and rape”. Another calls for mass deportations of “illegals”, saying: “It’s about time the indigenous people of Great Britain were put first.”

The group Hope Not Hate, which monitors far-right activity, said such messages showed Goddard was “a vile racist yob, pure and simple”.

Goddard has also discussed in a tweet harassing the BBC’s political editor, Laura Kuenssberg, and another journalist.

On Monday, a group of yellow jacket-wearing protesters shouted misogynist abuse at Sky anchor Kay Burley during a live TV broadcast, and yelled at the channel’s political editor, Faisal Islam, that he was “not British” and “a rapist”.

pip08456 21-12-2018 11:32
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35976367)
It getting silly now:

Change diet to cope with food delays after no-deal Brexit, Britons told

(paywall)

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/stock-ma...,-retail-surge



---------- Post added at 11:25 ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 ----------



The problem is that Brexit has emboldened the racists and facists among us and this is the result.
Oh bugger, no more fish and chips.

Pierre 21-12-2018 12:05
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35976367)
Yes, the EU farmers will be cockahoop watching all their produce rot...................

They'll take it with good grace and understanding.

Chris 21-12-2018 12:19
Re: Brexit
 
There’s not much point stockpiling fruit and veg in Scotland.

papa smurf 21-12-2018 12:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35976371)
There’s not much point stockpiling fruit and veg in Scotland.
I grew up on tinned fruit and veg .

denphone 21-12-2018 12:33
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35976372)
I grew up on tinned fruit and veg .
You were lucky as it was eat whatever was put on the table and if you did not like it then one would have to go without.

pip08456 21-12-2018 12:39
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35976374)
You were lucky as it was eat whatever was put on the table and if you did not like it then one would have to go without.
Remember those days well!:)

papa smurf 21-12-2018 12:41
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35976374)
You were lucky as it was eat whatever was put on the table and if you did not like it then one would have to go without.
fond memories
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAdlkunflRs

denphone 21-12-2018 12:43
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35976375)
Remember those days well!:)
Bread and dripping.:)

http://cookit.e2bn.org/historycookbo...-dripping.html

papa smurf 21-12-2018 12:44
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35976377)
Bread and dripping.:)
i still eat it .

Chris 21-12-2018 12:50
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35976372)
I grew up on tinned fruit and veg .
Up here they grow up on whatever can be battered and deep fried.

denphone 21-12-2018 12:52
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35976378)
i still eat it .
One has to obey others orders nowadays.:)

Carth 21-12-2018 13:04
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
The government has begun detailed planning on food supplies if Britain leaves without a deal and has identified a number of sites for massive hangars to stockpile food
Seems a bit pointless to me. If the large supermarkets have their wits about them, they'll already be stocking certain foods . . . in order to sell them at inflated prices when they announce to the public that they don't have much of it.

It's all too easy eh :D

denphone 21-12-2018 13:11
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35976382)
Seems a bit pointless to me. If the large supermarkets have their wits about them, they'll already be stocking certain foods . . . in order to sell them at inflated prices when they announce to the public that they don't have much of it.

It's all too easy eh :D
The food warehouses are almost full ahead of Brexit as there won't be much free storage around for that now.

https://www.bmmagazine.co.uk/news/uk...ead-of-brexit/

papa smurf 21-12-2018 13:14
Re: Brexit
 
From the end of October [when i put the boat away for the winter] i start stock pilling canned and jarred food ,fruit, veg, meat, fish, soups, stews, along with dried goods like pastas, beans, rice ,couscous and all manor of sauces ,all ready to stock up the food cupboards on the boat , so if push comes to shove come march i wont go hungry:)

Mythica 21-12-2018 14:02
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35976357)
@Damien - you say that the “young people are angry”. And here’s the problem: young people get angry at that age about matters that wouldn’t trouble them later, in particular when they are wiser and less altruistic.

Anyway, there was a referendum in 2016 and the result was clear. LEAVE. But some of the losers want to upstage that decision and I find that to be undemocratic.

As to the parliamentarians, I wish a pox upon them, particularly Labour for being totally unhelpful to the nation in their own political interest.



---------- Post added at 10:36 ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 ----------



.... and she needs speaking to.
This is where it gets dangerous and stupid. It's not a game, they weren't losers. Vote leave won on half truths/lies. It's not undemocratic to want a second vote based on what we know now.

pip08456 21-12-2018 14:14
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35976388)
This is where it gets dangerous and stupid. It's not a game, they weren't losers. Vote leave won on half truths/lies. It's not undemocratic to want a second vote based on what we know now.
Carry on in your make believe world, I don't care.

What I do know is that the majority of leave voters already knew what they were voting for before any campaign began. I'd been waiting since 1975 to vote leave again.

Mythica 21-12-2018 14:28
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35976389)
Carry on in your make believe world, I don't care.

What I do know is that the majority of leave voters already knew what they were voting for before any campaign began. I'd been waiting since 1975 to vote leave again.
As I said before, you speak for yourself and yourself alone. You may have not took any notice in the campaign but others did. It's quite rude suggesting I live in a make believe world simply because I said having a second referendum isn't undemocratic.

papa smurf 21-12-2018 14:34
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35976388)
This is where it gets dangerous and stupid. It's not a game, they weren't losers. Vote leave won on half truths/lies. It's not undemocratic to want a second vote based on what we know now.
It was a two horse race and they came in last, if it was a horse you had backed it's name would probably be deluded dan.

Hugh 21-12-2018 14:38
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35976385)
From the end of October [when i put the boat away for the winter] i start stock pilling canned and jarred food ,fruit, veg, meat, fish, soups, stews, along with dried goods like pastas, beans, rice ,couscous and all manor of sauces ,all ready to stock up the food cupboards on the boat , so if push comes to shove come march i wont go hungry:)
S long as you’re OK, that’s what’s important.

I love it when people stockpile food - it will save me having to go without if the food shortages hit... ;)

jfman 21-12-2018 14:40
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35976389)
Carry on in your make believe world, I don't care.

What I do know is that the majority of leave voters already knew what they were voting for before any campaign began. I'd been waiting since 1975 to vote leave again.
So you are only willing to contend that 8.7 million leave voters knew what they were voting for, the remaining minority of ~8.6 million may not have?

A startling admission.

Sephiroth 21-12-2018 14:52
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35976363)
You may wish to look up "condescending" in the dictionary...
[SEPH]: 'Showing an attitude of patronising superiority'. You may wish to look up the meaning of "patronising" to be sure that I was nothing of the sort.

Getting older does not necessarily equate with getting wiser - some people are fixed in their views, and nothing will change their mindset; people get wiser by learning more, not by getting older. [SEPH]: A rather vague set of words from you. Generally, the younger folk are less wise; everybody knows this - even you who just wishes to be contrary.

Not all older people are "less altruistic", aka "more selfish", and I know many of my age group that are angry/passionate about matters affecting this country; perhaps you are conditioned/influenced by those you mix/socialise with. [SEPH]: I could have used a better word than altruistic. But the last part of your sentence is gratuitous.


---------- Post added at 14:48 ---------- Previous post was at 14:40 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35976388)
This is where it gets dangerous and stupid. It's not a game, they weren't losers. Vote leave won on half truths/lies. It's not undemocratic to want a second vote based on what we know now.
That's ridiculous.

Vote Leave won. The half truths of the Leave campaign were easily offset by the Project Fear noise of the Remain campaign. Leave voters obviously took Project Fear into account.

Remainers want to usurp democracy to overturn democracy. Plus why on earth Remainers want to continue living in the realms of Juncker, Merkel and Macron (who has threatened us with perpetual Backstop if we don't surrender our fishing waters to France) is beyond me and most reasonable people. You seem to want to acquiesce to that threat and remain in the EU.

Jeez.





---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:48 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35976393)
S long as you’re OK, that’s what’s important.

I love it when people stockpile food - it will save me having to go without if the food shortages hit... ;)
Another ridiculous remark attacking a poster who has explained the precautions he has taken.



---------- Post added at 14:52 ---------- Previous post was at 14:49 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35976394)
So you are only willing to contend that 8.7 million leave voters knew what they were voting for, the remaining minority of ~8.6 million may not have?

A startling admission.
You know full well that your assertion is valueless. Pip was saying that he's waited 43 years to vote Leave again, and that others are like minded.

Stop playing around just to attack a Leaver's sincere remarks.

papa smurf 21-12-2018 14:52
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35976393)
S long as you’re OK, that’s what’s important.

I love it when people stockpile food - it will save me having to go without if the food shortages hit... ;)
people are taking precautions for when your eu friends spit out the dummy.

Mythica 21-12-2018 14:57
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35976395)


---------- Post added at 14:48 ---------- Previous post was at 14:40 ----------



That's ridiculous.

Vote Leave won. The half truths of the Leave campaign were easily offset by the Project Fear noise of the Remain campaign. Leave voters obviously took Project Fear into account.

Remainers want to usurp democracy to overturn democracy. Plus why on earth Remainers want to continue living in the realms of Juncker, Merkel and Macron (who has threatened us with perpetual Backstop if we don't surrender our fishing waters to France) is beyond me and most reasonable people. You seem to want to acquiesce to that threat and remain in the EU.

Jeez.





---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:48 ----------



Another ridiculous remark attacking a poster who has explained the precautions he has taken.



---------- Post added at 14:52 ---------- Previous post was at 14:49 ----------



You know full well that your assertion is valueless. Pip was saying that he's waited 43 years to vote Leave again, and that others are like minded.

Stop playing around just to attack a Leaver's sincere remarks.
It's not ridiculous at all though is it. Even if you take into account what vote remain were saying, it's not undemocratic to want a second referendum based on what we know now. It could be said the first referendum shouldn't have took place until we know what we know now.

jfman 21-12-2018 15:00
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 3597639)
You know full well that your assertion is valueless. Pip was saying that he's waited 43 years to vote Leave again, and that others are like minded.

Stop playing around just to attack a Leaver's sincere remarks.
It’s worse the other way: 8.7 million were going to vote one way without engaging any meaningful debate. Kinda proves why these things should be left out of the hands of a narrow minded public.

papa smurf 21-12-2018 15:01
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35976402)
It's not ridiculous at all though is it. Even if you take into account what vote remain were saying, it's not undemocratic to want a second referendum based on what we know now. It could be said the first referendum shouldn't have took place until we know what we know now.
Did you vote to leave?

Mythica 21-12-2018 15:10
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35976404)
Did you vote to leave?
What I voted doesn't change my point. It's not undemocratic to want a second referendum based on what we know now.

papa smurf 21-12-2018 15:15
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35976408)
What I voted doesn't change my point. It's not undemocratic to want a second referendum based on what we know now.
why hide it then?

Mythica 21-12-2018 15:21
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35976410)
why hide it then?
Who said I'm hiding anything. Leave or remain, my point still stands. I've not even personally said we should have a second referendum. My point is it's not undemocratic to want a a second referendum.

papa smurf 21-12-2018 15:22
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35976411)
Who said I'm hiding anything. Leave or remain, my point still stands. I've not even personally said we should have a second referendum. My point is it's not undemocratic to want a a second referendum.
If your not hiding it spit it out.

Mythica 21-12-2018 15:28
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35976412)
If your not hiding it spit it out.
Why when it has nothing to do with the point I'm raising? I voted remain. Still has no point in a second referendum wouldn't be undemocratic. I've not even said I personally want a second referendum.

papa smurf 21-12-2018 15:33
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35976414)
Why when it has nothing to do with the point I'm raising? I voted remain. Still has no point in a second referendum wouldn't be undemocratic. I've not even said I personally want a second referendum.
I have some good news for you nothing has changed in regard to the remain option , there's no new information to be had about your choice of option in the referendum,so no need to rerun it for those who voted remain.

Mythica 21-12-2018 15:44
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35976418)
I have some good news for you nothing has changed in regard to the remain option , there's no new information to be had about your choice of option in the referendum,so no need to rerun it for those who voted remain.
I'm not sure what you don't understand about me saying my choice of remain or leave has nothing to do with my point. Furthermore, I haven't stated I personally want a second referendum. This is one reason why I didn't want to tell you how I voted, you simply want to twist this into something it isn't. Furthermore, how do you now know that I'd still vote remain anyway?

My point is and always was, it's not undemocratic to want a second referendum based on what we know now.

papa smurf 21-12-2018 15:55
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35976420)
I'm not sure what you don't understand about me saying my choice of remain or leave has nothing to do with my point. Furthermore, I haven't stated I personally want a second referendum. This is one reason why I didn't want to tell you how I voted, you simply want to twist this into something it isn't. Furthermore, how do you now know that I'd still vote remain anyway?

My point is and always was, it's not undemocratic to want a second referendum based on what we know now.
I think we should re run the world cup the Ashes and most of man united's matches based on what we know now but that's not how it works.

Mythica 21-12-2018 16:04
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35976422)
I think we should re run the world cup the Ashes and most of man united's matches based on what we know now but that's not how it works.
No, that's not how sport works. The future of the country isn't based on sports results. And if you have to come up with a comparison like that, it says a lot about your argument.

Hugh 21-12-2018 16:16
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35976422)
I think we should re run the world cup the Ashes and most of man united's matches based on what we know now but that's not how it works.
That's how it works in the Olympics... ;)

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...al-doping.html
Quote:
When an Olympic medalist is caught doping, any medals he or she has won are usually ordered returned, to be awarded to the next finisher in line.
And in football

https://www.theguardian.com/football...ropeanfootball

Quote:
Juventus were last night dealt the most crushing blow in the club's illustrious history when a sporting tribunal set up by the Italian federation to decide on claims of match-fixing ordered the club be relegated to Serie B and forced to start next season with a 30-point deduction. It is unlikely they will play in the Champions League before at least 2009.

Milan, who were expected to emerge relatively unscathed from the biggest scandal to hit Italian football in modern times, were instead left facing at least two years out of European competition. Silvio Berlusconi's side avoided enforced relegation but were stripped of 44 points from last season, dropping them out of the European qualification spots, and given a 15-point handicap for next.

Lazio and Fiorentina were sent down to Serie B, where they will enter the championship with minus-seven and minus-12 points respectively. Luciano Moggi, the Juventus general manager at the centre of the affair, was banned from football for five years and the former president of the Italian federation, Franco Carraro, was excluded for 4½ years for failing to stop this rot at the very heart of the game.
And in the Tour De France

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/19369375
Quote:
Lance Armstrong has been stripped of his seven Tour de France titles and given a lifetime ban by the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA).
Cheats usually always get caught.

Sephiroth 21-12-2018 16:18
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35976402)
It's not ridiculous at all though is it. Even if you take into account what vote remain were saying, it's not undemocratic to want a second referendum based on what we know now. It could be said the first referendum shouldn't have took place until we know what we know now.
The Remainers would say that anyway. They are insinuating that the Leavers didn't know what they were voting for. Who are the Remainers to decide that?

What would you be saying if the Leavers were demanding another referendum because nothing further would have happened on a "what we know now" basis? Clearly that would be likely but the theoretical question is worth asking.

Many Remainers will stop at nothing to defy democracy just because they disagree with the Referendum result. That's bad.

papa smurf 21-12-2018 16:19
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35976425)
That's how it works in the Olympics... ;)

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...al-doping.html

And in football

https://www.theguardian.com/football...ropeanfootball



And in the Tour De France

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/19369375

Cheats usually always get caught.
"When an Olympic medalist is caught doping, any medals he or she has won are usually ordered returned, to be awarded to the next finisher in line.
And in football"


How much dope did the remain camp take prior to the vote?

Sephiroth 21-12-2018 16:19
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35976403)
It’s worse the other way: 8.7 million were going to vote one way without engaging any meaningful debate. Kinda proves why these things should be left out of the hands of a narrow minded public.
Fiction. Say something useful, please.

jfman 21-12-2018 16:32
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35976428)
Fiction. Say something useful, please.
He literally said the majority had made their minds up before any discussion or debate.

Mythica 21-12-2018 16:33
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35976426)
The Remainers would say that anyway. They are insinuating that the Leavers didn't know what they were voting for. Who are the Remainers to decide that?

What would you be saying if the Leavers were demanding another referendum because nothing further would have happened on a "what we know now" basis? Clearly that would be likely but the theoretical question is worth asking.

Many Remainers will stop at nothing to defy democracy just because they disagree with the Referendum result. That's bad.
Wanting another referendum based on what we know now isn't defying democracy. What if leave voters want another referendum? You speak for yourself and not millions of others. There simply wasn't enough true information to have a true result from a referendum based on what we know now.

papa smurf 21-12-2018 16:37
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35976432)
Wanting another referendum based on what we know now isn't defying democracy. What if leave voters want another referendum? You speak for yourself and not millions of others. There simply wasn't enough true information to have a true result from a referendum based on what we know now.
You don't speak for them either.

TheDaddy 21-12-2018 16:38
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35976395)
That's ridiculous.

Vote Leave won. The half truths of the Leave campaign were easily offset by the Project Fear noise of the Remain campaign. Leave voters obviously took Project Fear into account.
You do realise that makes it worse not better, two wrongs don't make it right, it isn't some how evened up because everyone lied, it just makes the whole thing a complete sham and makes a mockery of the democracy some people claim to be so desperate to uphold

Mythica 21-12-2018 16:39
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35976433)
You don't speak for them either.
I never said I did. Again which you seem to be missing, is my point is it's not undemocratic to want a second referendum. I've not said personally I want one, just it's not undemocratic to want one based on what we know now.

Sephiroth 21-12-2018 16:52
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35976432)
Wanting another referendum based on what we know now isn't defying democracy. What if leave voters want another referendum? You speak for yourself and not millions of others. There simply wasn't enough true information to have a true result from a referendum based on what we know now.
You don't get it. Whether or not I speak for myself (as is the case with you), the EU trick of gerrymandering events to force a second referendum is well document for three other countries.

As I've said several times, Remainers will use the argumental device your are deploying to defeat the outcome of the 2016 Referendum. We will never agree.

I tell you something else about what we know now. The EU as represented by their Commission, are hard nosed nasties who want to federalise Europe and make their parliament superior to ours. Nobody in their right mind should want that. What's the matter with you?



---------- Post added at 16:52 ---------- Previous post was at 16:47 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35976435)
You do realise that makes it worse not better, two wrongs don't make it right, it isn't some how evened up because everyone lied, it just makes the whole thing a complete sham and makes a mockery of the democracy some people claim to be so desperate to uphold
That cuts both ways. Remain lost.

How can you be so sure that the Referendum was "a complete sham and makes a mockery of the democracy"? That insults the voters on both sides who knew what they were voting for. Remainers seem to think that the Leavers did not know what they were voting for; they have no proof for this. Nor have they assessed the number of Remainers who are disgusted with the EU's high handed behaviour and who could change their vote to Leave.

That is one of the bases on which the Referendum result must stand. Many of the Remainers on this thread are very bad losers.

Mick 21-12-2018 17:03
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35976425)
That's how it works in the Olympics... ;)

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...al-doping.html

And in football

https://www.theguardian.com/football...ropeanfootball



And in the Tour De France

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/19369375

Cheats usually always get caught.
Yes but that has absolutely nothing to do with voting in an election/referendum, what happens in a campaign is irrelevant to votes legitimately cast - you have no proof of any votes being invalid whatsoever on either side and there was lies told on both sides!!!

I cannot bloody believe we are still damn arguing about the legitimacy of the referendum - it happened - leave won and leave we must - another vote is just there to overturn the first and a second one would be considered illegitimate, why should a second referendum supersede the first one, clue it should not?!?!

Mythica 21-12-2018 17:07
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35976437)
You don't get it. Whether or not I speak for myself (as is the case with you), the EU trick of gerrymandering events to force a second referendum is well document for three other countries.

As I've said several times, Remainers will use the argumental device your are deploying to defeat the outcome of the 2016 Referendum. We will never agree.

I tell you something else about what we know now. The EU as represented by their Commission, are hard nosed nasties who want to federalise Europe and make their parliament superior to ours. Nobody in their right mind should want that. What's the matter with you?



---------- Post added at 16:52 ---------- Previous post was at 16:47 ----------



That cuts both ways. Remain lost.

How can you be so sure that the Referendum was "a complete sham and makes a mockery of the democracy"? That insults the voters on both sides who knew what they were voting for. Remainers seem to think that the Leavers did not know what they were voting for; they have no proof for this. Nor have they assessed the number of Remainers who are disgusted with the EU's high handed behaviour and who could change their vote to Leave.

That is one of the bases on which the Referendum result must stand. Many of the Remainers on this thread are very bad losers.
And that's the dangerous thing with this argument. It's not a game, people didn't lose. People want what's best for the country.

Hugh 21-12-2018 17:10
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35976440)
Yes but that has absolutely nothing to do with voting in an election/referendum, what happens in a campaign is irrelevant to votes legitimately cast - you have no proof of any votes being invalid whatsoever on either side and there was lies told on both sides!!!

I cannot bloody believe we are still damn arguing about the legitimacy of the referendum - it happened - leave won and leave we must - another vote is just there to overturn the first and a second one would be considered illegitimate, why should a second referendum supersede the first one, clue it should not?!?!

Funny you should say that...

https://www.theguardian.com/news/aud...today-in-focus
Quote:
But now the National Crime Agency has said it is investigating Banks amid concerns that he was “not the true source” of £8m in funding to the Leave.EU campaign.

This week, Banks’s insurance company, as well as his Leave.EU campaign group, faced fines of £135,000 for breaches of data laws.

Meanwhile, the New York Times has reported that the US special prosecutor, Robert Mueller, is looking at records of Banks’s communications with Russian diplomats.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8649001.html
Quote:
The High Court will rule as early as Christmas whether Brexit should be declared “void”, in a legal case given a turbo-boost by the criminal investigation into Leave funder Arron Banks.

Judges are poised to fast track the potentially explosive challenge, after Theresa May’s refusal to act on the growing evidence of illegality in the 2016 referendum campaign, The Independent can reveal.

Lawyers describe that failure as “absolutely extraordinary” – given the National Crime Agency’s (NCA) probe into suspicions of “multiple” criminal offences committed by Mr Banks and the Leave.EU campaign.

Mick 21-12-2018 17:12
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35976442)
And?

That means Sweet FA!!

Try not to bring BS Robert Mueller stuff in to this thread either!

Sephiroth 21-12-2018 17:14
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35976441)
And that's the dangerous thing with this argument. It's not a game, people didn't lose. People want what's best for the country.
Nobody is calling the Referendum a "game". It was a Referendum.

The Leave choice won; the Remain choice lost.

Your assertion is just another blind alley attempt to have the valid result overturned by another Referendum where Remain might win.

Mick 21-12-2018 17:16
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35976442)
I see you did an edit - that is just more utter bullshit, it will be an absolute abuse of judicial power to overturn a democratic result based on campaign that was not even the official campaign.

Mythica 21-12-2018 17:19
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35976445)
Nobody is calling the Referendum a "game". It was a Referendum.

The Leave choice won; the Remain choice lost.

Your assertion is just another blind alley attempt to have the valid result overturned by another Referendum where Remain might win.
Attempt? I haven't stated personally I want a second referendum. My point always has been that it's not undemocratic to want a second referendum based on what we know now from both sides.

ianch99 21-12-2018 17:22
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35976428)
Fiction. Say something useful, please.
I guess he might when you do :)

The "Project Fear" crap is a broken record and should be consigned to the playground where it belongs. Debate the reality that faces us today. Hiding behind childish name calling betrays a lack of imagination.

Hey, when Vladimir Putin, who is the last person on this earth to preach democracy, tells us to "respect" the referendum result then we have all we need to know.

Sephiroth 21-12-2018 17:25
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35976447)
Attempt? I haven't stated personally I want a second referendum. My point always has been that it's not undemocratic to want a second referendum based on what we know now from both sides.
Then you're arguing for argument's sake - to be difficult. Not very useful to the debate.

Mythica 21-12-2018 17:29
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35976449)
Then you're arguing for argument's sake - to be difficult. Not very useful to the debate.
No, I'm arguing because I can't stand people who won't see the other side. What we know now is totally different to what we knew then and that's what some people voted on. It's not fair if their vote was based on lies and that goes for either side.

ianch99 21-12-2018 17:29
Re: Brexit
 
This may have been already posted, not sure:

Labour and Tory MPs strengthen efforts to prevent no-deal Brexit

Quote:
Senior Labour and Conservative MPs are to ramp up efforts to block any possibility of a no-deal Brexit ahead of the vote on Theresa May’s deal, with a plan to mandate the prime minister to extend or cancel article 50 if the prospect of crashing out looms.

Efforts were kickstarted on Thursday by a cross-party group of prominent MPs led by Yvette Cooper, who tabled a new amendment to the finance bill that would only allow a no-deal exit if MPs voted to proceed with one.

Cooper, the chair of the home affairs select committee, said the risks to the UK’s economy and security were “far too high and it would be irresponsible to allow it to happen”.

The MP said she believed there was no majority in parliament for a no-deal Brexit. “But if the government won’t rule it out, then parliament needs to find opportunities to stop the country reaching the cliff edge by accident – starting with the finance bill in the first week back, then looking at every other legislative opportunity too,” she said.

The amendment has been signed by a number of influential Labour and Tory MPs and is expected to be voted on when the House of Commons returns from the Christmas recess.

Sephiroth 21-12-2018 17:29
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35976448)
I guess he might when you do :)

The "Project Fear" crap is a broken record and should be consigned to the playground where it belongs. Debate the reality that faces us today. Hiding behind childish name calling betrays a lack of imagination.

Hey, when Vladimir Putin, who is the last person on this earth to preach democracy, tells us to "respect" the referendum result then we have all we need to know.
Why would you pray in aid Putin to justify that I'm not saying anything useful.

The Project Fear crap emerges whenever someone writes about what made voters choose Leave/Remain in the Referendum. It is as valid a point as any made about the crap put out by the Remain campaign.

You need to respect the Referendum result.

Dave42 21-12-2018 17:34
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35976356)
Like mp Anna Soubry mp for Broxtow

the people of broxtow voted 45.4% remain and 54.6% leave in the referendum
she has never accepted the result in fact she's gone out of her way to overturn it .
her pro Europe views are very well known indeed and she still won and if your complaining about that what about Kate Hoey very remain area but she is big brexiteer

Sephiroth 21-12-2018 17:41
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35976451)
No, I'm arguing because I can't stand people who won't see the other side. What we know now is totally different to what we knew then and that's what some people voted on. It's not fair if their vote was based on lies and that goes for either side.
That's very one sided. Had Remain won, what is now happening in this debate wouldn't have happened. There would be nothing new to know that hadn't been put out by the Leave campaign (the correct bits).


I don't expect you to have read all my earlier posts. I was praised a couple of months ago by Mr. K (no less) for writing a well balanced piece on the pros and cons of Leave/Remain. If, for any reason, we do remain, I won't be up in arms - after all the EU has not harmed us economically. I will be up in arms if we don't maintain our derogations from "ever closer union" and the Euro. I've never had a problem with freedom of labour movement - just our guvmin's inability to deal with the consequences (housing, health and so on). I support Leave particularly because of the way the EU has behaved (like Varoufakis said it would) and also Macron's threat to keep the UK permanently in Backstop until we give him our fishing waters. I don't like German hegemony nor the EU's tolerance of their breach of law as regards GDP surplus limits. The EU is a bad egg.

Mick 21-12-2018 17:51
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35976453)
Why would you pray in aid Putin to justify that I'm not saying anything useful.
I think it's called clutching at straws. ;)

---------- Post added at 17:51 ---------- Previous post was at 17:43 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35976454)
her pro Europe views are very well known indeed and she still won and if your complaining about that what about Kate Hoey very remain area but she is big brexiteer
Would that be the same Anna Soubry who said originally....

Quote:
..you can't vote for a Referendum & then renege on delivering the result because you don't like the result
https://twitter.com/Anna_Soubry/stat...07175725596672

???

Pierre 21-12-2018 19:17
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35976432)
Wanting another referendum based on what we know now isn't defying democracy. What if leave voters want another referendum? You speak for yourself and not millions of others. There simply wasn't enough true information to have a true result from a referendum based on what we know now.
Yet another person trotting the same boring unoriginal argument.

There was plenty of information prior to the referendum, if you didn’t understand what you voted for then that’s your own problem.

What we know now is no different to what we knew before.

Tell me, what’s changed?

Sephiroth 21-12-2018 21:41
Re: Brexit
 
I have long criticised the EU's anti-competitive Working Time Directive, which was rammed through by France under qualified majority Health & Safety banner. And now it's rearing its ugly head again.

CMS Law Now has reported that employees who receive e-mails and calls in the evenings / weekends and during holidays carry the risk that employees are "always online" in violation of working time regulations.

How stupid such unintended consequences are. We need to leave on a No Deal basis. They are terrified of that because we can institute policies, without reducing workers' rights, that make us more competitive.

Hom3r 21-12-2018 21:44
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35976374)
You were lucky as it was eat whatever was put on the table and if you did not like it then one would have to go without.

My granddad grew up like this, if you didn't eat it you had nothing, the next meal it was put out again.

Also he had porridge with water and salt.

Mr K 21-12-2018 22:12
Re: Brexit
 
If this country doesn't get away from 'winners' and 'losers' and realise at the end of the day then we're all on the same side, then we're doomed. Having a divided country will be even more disastrous when we're standing alone in the World.


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