Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Good to see the infantilisation of politics and political discussion is continuing on cableforum as well as on social media, it really is pathetic, oh your a lefty, yeah but your a nazi :rolleyes:

These parties and ideologies aren't football clubs, they don't deserve unwavering support, in fact I'd go as far as saying it's actually bad for democracy for representatives to know they've got your vote in the bag, where's their incentive to work hard or stay honest

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I see your reply is in line with your other reply, when asked for a definition…

You throw out an undefined emotive term, then when politely asked to clarify, back off or obfuscate- are you sure you’re not a politician? ;)

I read the Times, the Washington Post, & the Economist - none of which are regarded as "leftie"…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I know an Irish republican who listens to BBC Radio NI to find out what the enemy are saying ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well if it means not sharing the crazy views of the MP for Wokingham then where do I sign?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I could give you one, but it would probably be followed by a suspension from the forum.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I would disagree here. I would refer to the current Government as generally right wing based on the current & future policies. The term "right wing" is easily looked up as:

The term "leftie" is just self-referential e.g.

You would have to give some context to label a person, or more accurately, their view or views as left wing. Some people advocate left of centre views in some areas and centrist or even right of centre ones in others. In the real world, people are generally more nuanced in their world views.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

YouGov did an article on this a couple of years ago, which I found quite interesting

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...ts-complicated

Some snippets

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Indeed you were polite. Too polite!

Anyway, the Grauniad is lefty and we all know what that is about.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Anyway, The Torygraph/Sun/Mail/Express is righty and we all know what that is about.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

To anyone on the centre-right, or left of the centre-right, they are four cheeks of the same arse…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That wasn’t what Andrew posted, (#5288) and I said ‘when operational’ in the one you quoted.

---------- Post added at 19:53 ---------- Previous post was at 19:51 ----------

You told us you voted Corbyn, and I’m not the one who appeared to call you a ‘leftie’. My comment related to your apparent incredulity.

---------- Post added at 19:57 ---------- Previous post was at 19:53 ----------

Er, it was Seph that used that insult! I couldn’t possibly comment.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I agree, but they seem to feel insulted when labelled with that term. I’m not sure why, it’s as if they’ve just been rumbled, although it is normally plain to see.

Many of them are completely intolerant of alternative points of view, which are dismissed out of hand without any sensible discussion.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Man using term as insult surprised when people feel insulted.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Never voted for Corbyn. I hate the man.

---------- Post added at 21:42 ---------- Previous post was at 21:37 ----------

This needs framing for posterity. The one person who wouldn't know sensible discussion if it bit him on the behind. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Left / right, pretty meaningless really nowadays.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Still not congruent with actuality…

You said

The article said

The Trade Deal will become operational/ratified next year*, but the £1.8bn per year is in 10 years…

(unless you are saying it will take ten years to ratify the treaty?)

*https://www.gov.uk/government/news/u...nomic-benefits

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Never let it be said that there's no positive Brexit news. ;)
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/othe...31afb2a0&ei=14

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Who knows maybe a middle-profile former client of a UK bank with less than £4m as a balance might be joining them soon.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Indeed, someone needs to keep an eye out for Andrew Neill and also to see how Brexiteer Jim Ratcliffe's Ineos car plant in W̶a̶l̶e̶s̶ sorry France is doing.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Some pertinent info for anyone popping over to Spain this hols…

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/...three-27351268

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Details without all the annoying ads and including the amount-per-day for funds

https://www.which.co.uk/news/article...k-aaZSk8j2LdPj

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

At least with Corbyn you knew what you would get , with Sir Kier I have no idea what is his plan. Other politicians are available :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Where as we all know what the tory plan is, to loot the country for the benefit of chums for as long as possible.

In other news The EU will now be referring to The Falkland Islands as the Malvinas :(

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Far be it for me to be defending Labour (let’s take it as a sign of just how truly awful the present Tory party is), but a party in opposition with a new leader, if it keeps its cool, does have the luxury of developing policy while in opposition and only setting it out when it’s close enough to the election not to become background noise, or to be stolen by the party in power.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Although I agree that’s a reasonable enough strategy - it worked for Cameron in his years in opposition. However, Starmer is running the risk that people who are Labour voters wonder if he actually stands with them at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-uxbridge-lost

If a Labour leader (or indeed, any party) is going to u-turn on a policy every time it ends up on another party’s leaflet then it’s going to end up very bland indeed.

He isn’t going to win every seat so I’m not sure the point of pandering to those he doesn’t win.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Are you not forgetting that the British Electorate don't like extremes whether its left or right, they prefers political parties that occupy the centre ground of British politics.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I’m sure there’s a huge raft of acceptable positions to the left of the Tories at the minute and Starmer (it appears) is afraid to stand for any of them.

More of the same is simply more failure.

I fear he will actually be too timid to stand up for anything before the election, win but narrower than some predictions and not really have a mandate to go beyond the letter of a manifesto that says nothing.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I suspect in the next few months they will be fleshing out their five missions ready for 2024.
https://labour.org.uk/missions/

But that's probably best debated in another thread.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No, he won’t, because that’s your obsession, with your annual thread on the Great Replacement Theory… ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No, thanks - I’ll decide who/what I ask, just like when you ask leading questions, but then waffle/go :shrug: when asked what you think the answer is to your question…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Oh great, as if it wasn’t awful enough I’m defending Labour, now I have to go into bat for the S-N-*ing-Pee on a Sunday morning. :rolleyes:

Scotland has a particularly awful relationship with alcohol. So much so we have an actual thing called the Alcohol Act 2010, which banned supermarkets from including booze in multi-buy promotions. And we have the Alcohol (Minimum pricing) Act 2012, which allows the government to set a minimum price per unit (currently set at 50p, likely to rise to 80p in the near future). I am no fan of wee Humza fae Hutchie but anything he does with regards to alcohol sales in Scotland is in pursuit of long-established policy aimed at tackling deeply ingrained social issues, not the utterings of his Imam.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Just as well your Baptist, not Kafflik…;)

You’d have to go into the Confessional Box, saying

"bless me, Father, for I have sinned - since my last confession, I have

- had negative thoughts about others
- doubted my Faith
- defended U.K. Labour Party and SNP policies & approaches

For these and all my other sins, I ask for forgiveness…"

:D
-

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Does Spain show the the grass is greener on the other side. Left wing government likely to be right wing. UK right wing likely to be left wing ( in the broadest and most simplistic wording )

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nah let’s all play dumb. What’s left wing?

I guess for completeness we need the “hard left” and “far right” if pedantry about labels is going to go on and on.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

How do you define "left wing"? First in the U.K. context; then in Spain context. We all know what "right wing" is.

(just reflecting back what you said - can you try to understand that just because you believe you know what "left wing" is, that view/definition/understanding/belief may not be homogenous with other peoples"

The challenge for most is that they base their understanding/definition from where they are standing - subjectively, not objectively; to a reasonably large number of Americans, the current Conservative Government is "left-wing", as it supports (mostly) Socialised Medicine, has re-nationalised some companies, support gun control, committed to Net Zero, etc., etc.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well a picture speaks a thousand words, I like stupid over size pictures. Beats daft blue writing IMO.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Left wing is apparently a massive spectrum between thinking we shouldn’t pay companies that offshore billions in profits while they plough human excrement into our waterways all the way to the complete removal of all private property rights. It’s pure fantasy to present it as almost one single monolithic entity - although it suits those on the right to remove all the nuance around it to scaremonger.

The idea you could walk and be at your butcher, baker, grocer and GP within 15 minutes get pilloried as a global conspiracy to control everyone’s lives. :rofl:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So this

isn’t contributing to the conversation?

I was pointing out that, whilst to most people in the U.K., the Conservatives are seen as "right wing", to other parts of the world, they are not (so much). The other challenge is that you seem to be aiming for a "one size fits all" definition, whilst in practice, this rarely works - most people tend to have a mixture of beliefs, which, depending on where you are looking from, vary on the spectrum of left to right wing; for instance, I’m quite fiscally conservative, but socially liberal (please note the small "c"and "l").

To my Scottish family, I am seen as quite "Conservative", but to you, I’m probably "left wing".

As I posted previously, it’s complicated…

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...ts-complicated

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The point I was trying to make is the mob in power is rubbish, let's elect the other, the poler opposite. Seems it is the grass is always greener. :angel: personally I blame Major for the mess Britain got in to with the EU . Or are you all to young to remember him!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Dude, I had lunch with Thatcher (twice) when I was Vice-Chairman of a Regional Young Conservatives area, and I’ve had social drinks with Sir John (my wife and I were pulled out of an audience by Jeffrey Archer to so), so, yes, some of us remember him*

*I was on the opposing team when he got elected, as I was a researcher for my MP, who was Heseltine’s PPS, but I still think he was a good PM.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I genuinely don’t think “left” is well understood to be honest. It mainly gets thrown around as an insult by people following the US model of recalibrating the “centre” to “centre-right”.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think you are conveniently conflating being consistently misunderstood and well understood to be fair. You are also dodging offering a definition despite it being “well understood”.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You keep stating that it’s ‘well understood" but never actually support that statement with any definition…

Or, to put it in your terms

I do think that 'right’ is well understood in this forum But a lot of people seem to have trouble defining 'leftie’' yet freely chuck the term around when expounding their credo.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Or probably because it doesn’t meaningfully exist in UK politics.

It only exists as a relative point in the centre (to the left of the right and the far right).

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Give us an explanation then? When you say it, what do you mean and know it to mean in Pierre/Pip/OBs heads?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It means what he wants it to mean, and by keeping it undefined, doesn’t allow contradiction.

But no one else can do the same with "right wing", because, you know, "reasons"… :dozey:

The 'right’ is well understood. Everyone knows it, including you. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So you don't really know. Thanks for clearing that up, you can only dodge for so long before you look foolish.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don't think it's necessarily useful to benchmark the features of one side but not the other. So I'll have a go from left to right, but essentially in my head (economically) it's a sliding scale of the role of the state from full control of almost everything (Soviet model) to controlling the bare minimum (defence spending, basic infrastructure) with all previous functions of the state privatised or simply not done. In absolute terms on the extreme right economically, this probably isn't seen anywhere as even the most 'small state' right wing politicians recognise the value of education as babysitting, or a basic level of social security for pensioners/disabled).

On the sliding scale there's debate about the role of the state in carrying out a vast range of economic activity as a direct supplier/consumer and employer with the ability to influence markets significantly by, or declining to, spend. Left wing more often correlates with higher spending, citing the value in the outputs that the state can achieve with economies of scale that the private sector simply cannot.

On the right it's lower tax, less public services with the private sector filling (and charging for) the void. Even where the state has to intervene in the market it's often through regulating the private sector, or subsidising it, rather than taking direct control.

Few people view these as absolutes with a one size fits all approach across the board. However, a non-exhaustive list would be the role of the state (if any) in funding or regulating private companies in healthcare, social care, housing, higher/further education, public transport services and infrastructure, energy, telecommunications, water infrastructure. Without taking the time to weight them if someone thinks the state should be extremely active as an economic actor in all of those that would place them further to the left and none of those other than light touch (or no) regulation that would be further to the right.

Socially I think it get's more complex than portrayed - I think some on the right when they are losing the economic argument like to weaponise social issues whereas. Others on the right would be absolute in their view of a person's right to a private life and what they do (and who they do it with) within the law isn't anything to do with the state. The trans issue is more complex given the amounts of public money seemingly going to charities to push the message and ultimately medication/surgery on the NHS is a cost which brings in the question of whether it's a lifestyle choice or a medical need.

Nationalism is more frequently associated with the right socially, as is anti-immigration. That's not to say everyone on the right (and no-one on the left) holds those views. Right wing economics relies the world over upon immigration to drive down costs (or up efficiencies in the private sector.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sorry, it’s Friday and I’ve had a drink, no way I’m reading all that………..

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If ‘left’ is well understood, that means people know what it is (according to you), and the corollary of that is that since the ‘left’ is what the right isn’t, if you know what the ‘left’ is, then the ‘right’ is what’s left (so to speak), and is thus defined.

hope this helps…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Ffs, Hugh, confused.com....:D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Really good analysis of the new fiction of 'woke capitalism' and its relation to Brexit:

https://twitter.com/chrisgreybrexit/...60220420743174

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Believe harder and it'll be alright

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

England’s Jude Bellingham applies for Irish passport

Irish passport

We did it the cheap way: we all in the family now have EU ID cards: French, Italian & Greek. No passport is needed (they cost around 90 Euros each). We can go in and out of 30 Euro countries and we can stay as long as we like...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

CE (Conformité Européenne) mark to remain. Companies selling in Great Britain can choose to follow this mark or the new UKCA one.
A commonsense u-turn.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...exit-climbdown

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

This is great news and will massively simplify the regulatory landscape. Mind you, I wouldn’t be happy if I spent lots of money getting a UKCA conformity certificate on top of a CE one.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So the great news is that we keep using what we already had :)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yep, one set of regulations for both Great Britain and the EU and Northern Ireland instead of two.

Not sure what that means for regulatory divergence though as this looks like we will be tied to EU Technical Directives going forward if CE marking is going to be accepted for ever. If we go for less strict regulation then maybe it’s ok but can’t go for more strict regulations as CE marks might not cover any Great Britain requirements.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I also understand that we don't have testing capability in many areas so even if an organisation wanted a UKCA marking, there would be no company able to test and grant the mark for some goods.

I can see the UKCA mark dying out now.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Can’t test for CE directives either of course. Goods will need to be shipped abroad for testing.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Is there anything else of Brexit apart from the UKCA mark that you think is a Boris vanity project?

---------- Post added at 19:51 ---------- Previous post was at 19:48 ----------

More Brexit benefits for Macron, Scholz, Rutte et al :td:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Is it blue ? :erm:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

+1.

After so many references I was surprised mine turned up black. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

+2. Just have mine in front of me for an upcoming trip to Bilbao. Black as a turned-off TV screen. I think it's the French-owned manufacturers trolling us. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Just like your blood, Seph. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I have to be honest here. Whenever I am in trouble, I am British and nothing else. When my team was stuck in no man's land on the bridge between Hong Kong and China, the British embassy send staff within an hour. I had a French and a Cypriot in my team, their embassies did not care. UK was in the EU at the time, they took care of the EU nationals.

So the "navy" black passport has its value.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Black and blue, pretty much sums up the battered and bruised state of the country under this shower we've got laughingly in power.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Navy blue. And very powerful, if you need protection abroad.

From a family with a suitcase of EU ID cards.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If course it could have been that colour within the EU so it's not really relevant.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's relevant in that it answered the question about Johnson's Brexit vanity projects. But absolutely correct that we could have done so without Brexit.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Doubt it would have been much of a worry. Blue would be closer to the EU colours.

That red colour was just the global recommended one to go through passport machines at the time.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

"In 1986, the United States announced the US Visa Waiver Program. The UK was the first country to join the scheme in 1988; however, a requirement was that the traveller hold a machine-readable passport. On 15 August 1988, the Glasgow passport office became the first to issue burgundy-coloured machine-readable passports."

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think you won that one :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Government has realised that implementing Brexit fully will further hit consumers in the pocket. So once again, the government has postponed border controls.
https://www.ft.com/content/d0673acb-...f-009be5ab14c3

---------- Post added at 23:28 ---------- Previous post was at 23:28 ----------

Hands down! Sorry Seph.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's the little things that mean so much :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I’m currently in Turkey, when I went through passport control they couldn’t care less what colour our passports were, we have a mix.

Same for Mexico last year.

The EU is but one destination, in a very big world.