Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

So far the EU are claiming they have good access to British waters until 2026 and then 'strong incentives' for that to continue as well as assurances over the level playing field. The U.K are saying all red lines are met.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

From the EU press conference, you can see what the problem has been. The EU has it's own dictionary which is different from the rest of the World. The word "sovereignty" for them, has pretty much the opposite meaning, to the rest of the planet.:rolleyes:

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

+2

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

It's called French. ;)

---------- Post added at 15:14 ---------- Previous post was at 15:13 ----------

U.K won't be part of the Erasmus programme

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Exactly.

The pundits were saying that the wrong sort of deal would annoy both remainers and brexiters, the devil will be in the detail.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

BBC Reality Check notes that French and Dutch media are being briefed that the UK made major concessions. Considering the stake those countries have in keeping their fishermen in line (especially that Dutch super-trawler that owns something like 20% of England’s quota all by itself) this is unsurprising. I don’t doubt however that the usual suspects will be on here in short order, regurgitating French and Dutch government spin as if it’s the unvarnished truth.

While details are hard to come by at the moment, it seems there is a 5.5 year transition period over fishing quota clawback (the EU had wanted 10). It seems also that the deal acknowledges UK sovereignty in its own EEZ but is based on it being very unlikely that the UK would take sudden measures to exercise it against legally operating trawlers from EU states. For more than that we will just have to wait and see.

---------- Post added at 15:26 ---------- Previous post was at 15:24 ----------

It’s positively Orwellian, the way the EU tries to redefine such fundamental concepts so as to make objection to their programme difficult to articulate. Von Der Leyen has just made a speech in which she conveniently aligns whatever the EU chooses to do with a concept she calls sovereignty but which has little if anything to do with the dictionary definition of the term.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

It seems like both sides will be happy with that. U.K gets its sovereignty and eventual right to change the rules but the EU gets to access the waters/fish with some degree of assurance and security.

If the French are happy and the U.K is happy then sounds like the two sides did well.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

BoJo: no role for the ECJ.

Exactly as it should be. For the EU to expect its own court to adjudicate disputes between itself and the UK was ludicrous.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Looks like there will be a new arbitration body?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

That bit is a real shame to be honest. Erasmus is or was a great thing.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Yeah, all those foreign students now unable to come to the UK and develop their skills . . . the EU countries must be up in arms about that.

Expect changes to that particular part very soon ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

And UK students unable to study in the EU too of course. It's a shame, it's a great system

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Throwing the baby out with the dishwater? BoJo was talking of a replacement global scheme named after Alan Turin.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Headed by Donald trump;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

They're planning to introduce a new scheme for that. As Boris pointed out, the previous scheme was a massive net loss for the UK, as we were funding, etc, hordes from the EU.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

You're correct in suggesting he'll be spending quite a bit of time in the courtroom next year. ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

He might go into hiding in Mexico . . . oh hang on :naughty:

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

In summary

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

35,524 students and staff coming to the UK = 'hordes'
22,784 UK staff and students going in the other direction

Trying to find the costs at the moment but it seems to be in the tens of millions.

Of course with education it is very difficult to run a profit so I guess it would be a loss but at what intangible value?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

So, out of 66 million UK population, we sent 23k.
Out of EU population of 448 million, 36k

The EU has 7 times the population, but sent 1.5 times the students - we were obviously being ripped off...

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

Whilst to me the benefits of leaving the EU are clearly outweighed by the disbenefits, I have to give credit to BoJo for following through on his promise and agreeing a deal with the EU, especially given the ongoing pandemic.

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

I feel a bit of a mullet as I flounder on a scale not before seen. A load of pollocks really.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Not sure I follow. We send proportionally more students to the EU than we receive and the funding for those students comes from a central pot.

However, it's not the funding that is a shame, it is the loss of opportunity to participate in an excellent experience studying abroad. Let's hope that this Turing Scheme is as good or better

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Can you explain how it was a massive net loss for the UK, nomadking?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

With freedom of movement ending it would've ended up being a backdoor method to “come in, drop out, and stay in the country”, especially as the EU is looking to heavily increase funding, ie numbers.

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

Labour will back the deal.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexi...?ocid=msedgntp

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

But blame the Tory's if there are any problems.

I'm quite surprised sir splinter arse isn't sitting on the fence but at least he is absolving himself of any blame, which is the next best thing to abstaining.

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

Well, they are the Government so that would be a fair call. ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Boris said so in the press conference. "but our arrangement basically means that financially the British Exchequer loses out on the deal". "Erasmus was all so extremely expensive".

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

And he has never told porkies before?

We send almost five times the number of students to the EU than the EU send to the U.K. - I’d love to see the figures that show we contribute five times that of the rest of the EU..

---------- Post added at 18:13 ---------- Previous post was at 18:11 ----------

Sorry, I forgot the <sarcasm> markers... ;)

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

AIUI, the host country doesn't charge the foreign student any fees. So, if we were taking in more than we were sending abroad, it was a net loss to the UK.

If this is correct, I can well understand why a British student who is being asked to take on debt for thousands of pounds to pay his or her fees would not be happy sitting next to someone from another country who is getting their education for free.

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

You could say the same about any students in an EU University sitting next to a U.K. student...

It’s part of the Exchange Programme, no matter where it is - my son spent his 2nd Year at University of South Carolina, Columbia, and he paid U.K. fees (£3k at the time) - his fellow students paid around $30,000 per year for the same course.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Errrr ... I think this explains what Boris is talking about.

https://facts4eu.org/news/2019_jan_erasmus

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

It would be the Treasury civil servants that were lying, if that was the case.
The contributions to the scheme are based upon GDP, so the UK pays heavily on that count. The costs of the scheme are planned to double from next year.
The average stay of students under the scheme, is 6 months.
And of course they're going there to study (the beaches and night life).

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

ZOMG - imagine blaming the people who wanted this, won an election on promising this, negotiated this, and are taking all the credit for completing this, if there are any problems.

Totally unfair!! :D

---------- Post added at 18:37 ---------- Previous post was at 18:35 ----------

"About us"

https://facts4eu.org/about

Seems legit... ;)

Twice as many students benefit, with seven times the population...

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

So how many UK students opting to go to Romania, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania? Not a simple equation, especially as:-

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

Erasmus is another U-turn from BoJo

15th January 2020: "“There is no threat to the Erasmus scheme." (Prime Minister's Questiosn)

24th December 2020: "It was a tough decision..." (Deal annoucement)

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

That's the EU's "THINKING OF LEAVING US?" message for those still imprisoned. :rofl: Forgive me if I don't take a document with the European Commission logo at the top at face value ...

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

As I've said, the costs are going to double from next year.

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

I very much doubt it given the pandemic.

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

Last week.

That's 4bn more than planned at the start of this year, and 2bn more than in May. Instead they've increased the budget for it.

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

The only figures that matter to the UK are the amount of foreign students coming here and the amount of our students going abroad. A fairer system would be a one out, one in policy.

Gove has been critiscised for saying that this scheme (and EHIC) would continue after 1/1/21:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1768576.html

---------- Post added at 20:15 ---------- Previous post was at 20:07 ----------

So the students aren't actually getting completely free education, they continue to pay as if they were staying at their own educational establishment. That's fair enough then, but if we have more coming in than going out it's still costing us in resources.

If it's a simple (albeit unbalanced) swap of students, apart from the extra cost of resources in us subsidising the costs of educating overseas students, where do all the extra costs that the scheme is said cost come from? I think that they are responsible for any extra costs of accomodation that are incurred themselves.

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

They are

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

Pesky French! ;)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...he-brexit-deal

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

The worst part of the deal is that lack of access for the services industry which is our biggest sector. You can no longer start a services-based business in the U.K and have the entire European market instantly available to you.

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres.../en/ip_20_2531

Pending release of the full agreement text, the attachment is the EU's official statement on what the agreement covers.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

https://assets.publishing.service.go...UMMARY_PDF.pdf

The UK Guvmin version is attached.

EDIT: I've read the 34 pages and they look OK to me. Thus the devil, if any, will be in the detail. Anyway, I'm pleased.

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

This is dull as ditchwater, but worth a go if you’re worried about the single market in services. Spoiler: such a thing barely exists in reality, notwithstanding any rules that supposedly enable it:

https://www.civitas.org.uk/content/f...andparadox.pdf

The fun begins around page 90 and gets right to the point near the bottom of page 93. There’s also some interesting comparisons between British services exports within the EU and to several non-EU countries,

We’ll be fine.

Re: Brexit-UK & EU Agree Post Trade Deal
 

Should be noted that Civitas is not impartial - they're anti-EU and linked to Vote Leave and Business for Britain.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a6866011.html

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Indeed, however their statistical analysis is compelling. If the single market in services is so good, how are so many of Europe’s major economies doing as well, if not better, selling their services outside the EU? It’s hard to argue with their conclusion: the regulatory regime really doesn’t create an especially advantageous marketplace for those selling services. And as more and more business is done online, it’s equally hard to see where the barriers to trade in services within the EU can exist. You hire someone online, they do the work. You send cash, they send output of whatever kind. All that actually crosses borders are electrons.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

IRISH fishermen have reacted furiously after the UK and the EU struck their last-gasp trade deal yesterday - with the head of a prominent trade organisation claiming they had been "sacrificed" by Brussels.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...ishing-ireland


Merry Xmas

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Considering many were complaining that the 'fishing issue' was a very minor point during the negotiations, it's strange how some of the EU fishermen are now annoyed at the deal struck . . maybe it wasn't such a minor point after all :D

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

As we all know, a small minority can make a lot of noise out of all proportion to their relevance.

Merry Christmas, one and all.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Fishing was never a small issue. Everyone who obsessed over its contribution to our GDP missed the point. For us it wasn’t about GDP, it was about reasserting our sovereignty in one particularly visible area that was especially hard hit by our cack-handed entry to the EU, and moreover an issue that is of electoral significance to the Tories in several places, including northeast Scotland (witness how hard the SNP is trying to paint this as a bad deal - the northeast used to be their heartland but the Tories now threaten to make it theirs). It was also about playing one of our strongest cards well - the reason it has become so modest for us is because it has become rather more important for some of them. EU leaders repeatedly warned Barnier not to allow fishing to be the last issue on the table because they knew its importance. The EU side seems to have failed to achieve that.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

25th December 2020.


https://www.euronews.com/2020/12/24/...the-eu-uk-deal

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Heard an interesting fact about membership fees earlier, that leaving has cost more than all our years membership fees combined, sobering statistic for me

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Heard an interesting fact about membership fees earlier, we're going to be rebated the full amount from joining. Sobering news.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

They’re called Labour supporters.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Well it might be if it made sense

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Makes as much sense as your post.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Guys, it's Christmas - give it a break.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

I'll give it a rest when TheDaddy shows it has cost more than £72,171,733,000,000.

I'll even post a reputable source for my figure.

Link

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Sleep it off is the best advice I can give you

Yes that's the figure on full fact and business insider

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

It appears that we have actually achieved a Canada + deal, despite all the commentary to the contrary.

The central objectives of securing a tariff-free, quota-free trade deal, regaining control over our fishing grounds within a reasonable time period (5.5 years was negotiated), ridding ourselves of ECJ jurisdiction, no automatic application of tariffs unilaterally by Brussels if they have an issue about the level playing field, etc have all been achieved.

According to the press, the deal also covers financial services (wow!), which was unexpected, although precisely what is covered, it is not yet clear.

At last, it is confirmed by the Centre for Economics and Business Research that Britain will widen the gap between itself and the French economy from the current 9% in Britain's favour to 23% by 2035, confounding those prophets of doom who claimed that even with a deal, we would become worse off than had we remained in the EU.

I have always said that leaving the EU would open up opportunities for Britain, and at last, at least some are waking up to the reality of the situation.

---------- Post added at 12:19 ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 ----------

As I understand it, that is totally unnecessary. The WTO already performs that function. It will be interesting to read further details.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

https://fortune.com/2020/12/25/boris...uropean-union/

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Thank you for the additional information, Hugh. I am still catching up at the moment!

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

https://assets.publishing.service.go...24.12.2020.pdf

The full text.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

AFAIK VAT was introduced to pay our contributions to the EU. Don't all EU countrirs have VAT as a way of funding their contributions to the EU? I'm not sure if this new tax paid for the full or only part of our contributions.

If it paid for our full EU costs, it didn't cost our Government any extra, as it was the public that paid for it.

I think that VAT replaced a lower sales tax, so for any extra money to arise out of us leaving (net of the ongoing commitments) the Government will have to continue taxing us at the current rate.

If they scrap VAT (can the public be charged it if we aren't in the EU?) and replace it with the old lower sales tax, there won't be any spare money to spend or reduce other taxes!

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Considering how much money lockdowns are costing us, I think it very unlikely any taxes will be reduced.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

VAT is a harmonised consumption tax that applies across the EU, ostensibly to simplify what can otherwise be quite complex systems of taxes within a manufacturing and sales chain. The EU’s justification for it is that it prevents member states “accidentally” subsidising industry by overestimating tax receipts and overpaying refunds to manufacturers.

The EU doesn’t directly collect VAT (not even a portion of it), but a member state’s VAT receipts are part of the way its contribution to the EU budget is calculated.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Here’s a questions and answers web page from the EU - https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres.../qanda_20_2532

Only picked an EU page as there doesn’t seem to be a UK equivalent. It’s quite long but is quite useful. Some good points include;

• Continuation of most aviation services ‘as is’
• Continuation of membership of ECHR needed to get security database access
• Sticking a pin in the 31st December as the point of reference for the level playing field. Any lowering of standards could trigger problems
• Commonality of food standards including ‘antibiotics and decontaminants’ solving the chlorinated chicken issue

Bummer that my qualifications won’t be recognised going forwards though.

Still working my way through...

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Your qualifications won’t be recognised as a right but there are well established processes for gaining recognition. Most of the world is not in the EU, and professionally qualified people can and do travel all over the world.

The ECHR is not an organ of the EU. It was set up mostly by us at the end of World War 2 to ensure any future atrocities could be prosecuted from a firm legal basis rather than on a hastily agreed set of principles formulated from a medieval concept called Natural Law (which is in turn rooted in Classical Greek philosophy (principally Aristotle). Given Europe’s history, membership of it should be a basic requirement for any country to be deemed civilised.

The food standards regs would prevent uk producers exporting chlorine washed chicken to the EU but as we are outside their single market it’s hard to see how that rule would prevent us importing it if we chose.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Oh absolutely, I have had many discussions with leavers on the fact that the ECHR and the EU are different things (though being a member is a requirement of being a member of the EU) I am sure however that certain politicians would love to be rid of it. Sovereignty, foreign courts and all that.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

I’m really hot on sovereignty but I’m willing to make an exception for the ECHR. Besides, as it’s a single treaty and not enmeshed with a shedload of other stuff, arguably it doesn’t impinge on sovereignty in the way the EU does. We could walk away from the ECHR without anything like the palaver of the last 4 years. Not that we should.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

VAT raised £130 billion last year in the U.K., and we paid the EU (after rebate) between £8 billion and £11 billion (depending if we count payments that the EU makes directly to the UK private sector such as grants to universities.).

I don’t think we will be abolishing VAT...

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Yes, having skimmed the document, there appear to be no concessions on financial services. I thought that was too good to be true!

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

They'd better get this vote done quick as the troublemakers are starting to read the small print !

Sir Keir will come to Boris' rescue anyway :)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...droidApp_Other

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

I think it was a sensible compromise regarding the fish. A phased approach leading to the same model as Norway in 5 years time.

We were always going to give EU boats access, I’m assuming our boats have reciprocal access to EU waters over the same period.

And after 5 years access to each other’s waters is a matter of negotiation.

Though I do love the SNPs front. I don’t how they can criticise and keep a straight face.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Neither do I. I think that they might have to change the name of VAT from January, but it will be at least the same amount.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Don't see why they should change the name, it's not a trademark. Countries outside the EU use the term including Bangladesh, Mexico and South Africa.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

:confused: Why would we need to change the name of VAT? Most countries(main exception being the US) around the world have a similar system, and many refer to it as VAT.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

In NZ and Oz it’s GST (Goods & Services Tax), but it’s (mostly) the same thing

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

No matter what it's called it's still someone's hand in your pocket;)

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Anyhoo, on a brighter note, EHIC cards are remaining valid until their expiry date (ours expire mid June 2024).

Still time to apply online for yours, which will be valid for 5 years.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Only certain categories of people can now apply - most people will not qualify!
See https://services.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/cra/s...onExpired=true
:rolleyes:

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

There's supposed to be a replacement , a UK Global Health Insurance Card (GHIC), which gives the same cover.

See, the EU are nice people ;), but don't get ill in the US whatever you do! They'll have your house repossessed..

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Thats from 1st January - you (one) can still apply for the existing version till the end of this month.

https://www.ehic.org.uk/Internet/startApplication.do

Will the EHIC still be valid after Brexit? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44850972

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Only for EU nationals? We aren't one of those anylonger.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Where does it say that?

It says

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/hea...nsurance-card/
You might be able to apply but guess nothing will happen. As mentioned above there's supposed to be a replacement GHIC card.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

This is the current guidance
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/uk-resid...and-healthcare

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Thanks - it let me all the way through, until it pointed out my card wasn't expired.

Just looking at that page, it's out of date - it was posted the day before the deal, and it states Whilst the deal states that EHIC cards are valid until expiration date.

Probably worth trying (if you don't have an EHIC card already) to see what happens.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

Don't think anyone will be travelling anywhere soon anyway, if they've got any sense. Most countries won't have us.

Lucky to get my Rome trip in at the beginning of the year. Strange how times change, thought people wearing masks on the streets were being a bit paranoid !

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

"The EU are nice people"?:confused:
The UK gets sent the bill instead, we're unsurprisingly, not so good at claiming back from the other EU countries.
Eg The Spanish taxpayer doesn't have to pay for a UK visitor. It's the UK taxpayer that picks up the tab.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
 

If we don't claim it back, its no fault of Spanish. If anything it says they are more efficient.

I suspect our many drunken and elderly visitors to Spain cost a lot more in healthcare than Spanish visitors do to us.

Re: UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal