Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks Alexander. I appreciate that very much. I understand that Simon is very busy not just with the 80/20 stuff but also with his campaigning for P.I. such as the council use of RIPA issue etc etc. That said I think its urgent that this footage is released very soon as it has been dragging on and the longer we wait the more people will speculate as to what is going on. Get some sleep and once again thanks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

On a related note, this is a fun fun read :

http://www.brandrepublic.com/DMDaily...datory-opt-in/

"LONDON - The direct marketing industry would face ‘armageddon' if mandatory opt-in was imposed in the UK, DMA chairman Rosemary Smith has said.
Her comments came three weeks after the Information Commissioner Office's decision to impose an opt-in only regulation on the ad-targeting system Phorm.

Smith, also a director of data protection law consultancy Opt-4, said that the market would "change dramatically" if all businesses had to obtain permission before contacting new or current customers."

I note with interest how she muddies the waters, since the "Direct Marketing" industry really has very little to do with contacting existing customers, and in fact (AFAIK, IANAL, etc) there isn't any legislation existing or mooted that prevents you from doing so, unless you want to sell them something outwith your current relationship, in which case they aren't your existing customer.

Having had the distinct misfortune to have had a personal look inside of the grey areas of such "marketing" (A euphemism for "hard selling"), I think bringing down Armageddon upon it would be an excellent thing. IMHO it's a poisonous industry full of poisonous people, and does nothing but spread a low grade, gritty, hard to remove evil into the souls of all those whom it touches.

It's because of the constant whining and lobbying of people like the DMA that we are where we are today with Phorm, if ICO and co had taken the bit between their teeth when they had the chance..., well, to late for recriminations now. Bring on the fire and brimstone, say I.

Other opinions may be available (they'll be wrong though :shocked:)

---------- Post added at 09:40 ---------- Previous post was at 09:34 ----------

I rather suspect that 80/20 have the problem faced by a lot of small start up companies, in that they have become victims of their own success and are finding it hard to keep up with commitments.

Cut them some slack, I'm sure they will post the video when they get a chance, probably in tandem with the PIA. I know they gave a date that has passed, but we've all missed deadlines. Well, I have, but then I was a coder for 7 years :dozey:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I hope they've thought carefully about how they will "invite" people onto the trial. Originally it was going to be a popup web page, but unless it pops up while I am logged on to my BTYahoo! customer account pages or logged onto as a customr at www.bt.com, I will consider it an illegal interception of my browsing. They've kept quiet about that.

If you are a BT customer and get a trial invite, we need to know several things.

- What were you doing when the invite popped up? Were you browsing non-BT or BTY pages, or were you logged in to your BTY account, or your bt.com account? (the first would be an illegal interception, the second would be a customer service announcement)

- What did the page say? (full copy of page,including any FAQ links that are accessible BEFORE making a decision and before you click on any buttons) so that we can see how much inphormaton is being given about the TRUE nature of Webwise/Phorm, and inphormation about the potential legal challenges and liabilities of both ISP and customer if they switch it on, with respect to RIPA, DPA, Fraud Act and civil action from website owners as well as the risk of finding yourself locked out of many Webwise-resistant Dephormed sites if you browse to them with Webwise ON.

- What was the address of the invitation page? (?? Check browsing history or logs before doing anything with the page?)

- What action you took and what cookies you found on your machine afterwards, and what cookies started to appear when you browsed, and what began to show in your status bar when you returned to normal browsing (any strange redirections for example).

That's just my ill-inphormed non-technical guesses - can any of you clever guys and girls add to or improve this list? When I get a decent set of instructions for customers, I will do my best to get them circulated in the BT Beta forums and BT newsgroups, along with a list of urls that will allow them to phorm their own opinions.

IF the trial DOES go ahead, we need to make sure BT customers have a decent chance of finding out the truth behind the Ertugrul Webwise spin. There are between 2 and 3 million of them out there, 10,000 of whom are supposed to be getting invites, and most of whom don't understand a dingo's kidney about all of this and have probably never even heard of Phorm or Webwise and will happily sign up to "improved anti-phishing" technology that "gets rid of irrelevant adverts", which is what BT may well think of as informed consent.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

With the greatest respect I completely disagree. I have already given them a lot of slack. Unless 80/20 are editing the footage themselves (not likely) then it should have been up by now. It is now a fortnight since the meeting. Lets remember there were only 2 cameras. It shouldn't be taking this long.

If there are disagreements behind the scenes about the editing or where the footage will be hosted etc then we deserve the right to know. All I am asking for is information. It takes how long to put up a statement for the website?

Anyway, Alexander is going to call Simon after sleeping and thats good enough for me. Very interested to see what Simon says to Alexander.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK, I take your point, if they are busy, they could just say so.

However, with the greatest of respect to Simon et al, the question of how long it takes to put up a statement on a website has a variable answer depending on several factors, including one's technical ability. Having read the interim PIA, I am assuming that Simon may not be his own webmaster, perhaps he is waiting for someone else to update the site. So I will also wait with interest to see if he comments.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Fair point about Simon maybe not being his own webmaster. My main issue is that the longer this takes the more suspicious I am. We have already seen a big change in tactics from Phorm and the PR Team who no longer post.

VM seem to be stalling on making any significant statements maybe waiting and hoping for the issue to die down. The longer we wait for the footage to be uploaded and the longer we wait for any concrete announcement of when it will be uploaded the more suspicious I become as to the reasons for the delay.

Given Kents attitude at the meeting and what Alexander has said about Kents attitude during the click interview I am concerned. This is the main reason I am wary about any further delay.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Under more normal circumstances I would say you are being paranoid, but given the current situation, and it's lies upon deceits upon half truths, fair 'nuff. Personally I doubt there's any jiggery pokery going on behind the scenes, but with all that's gone before, who can tell ?:erm:

w/r/t to the deafening silence, I am taking this as a fantastic sign of progress. Phorm and all who sail in her have realised that they are a certain metaphorical creek without a suitable means of propulsion, they're probably sequestered somewhere drawing straws to find out who goes to prison.

On a more serious note though, they are clearly running scared when they can't even muster a few of the old spinmeister "everything is double plus good" comments without fear of digging themselves deeper into the hole. I note that they've taken to using more obscure corners of the internet media to pimp the PR spin, and that it's still mostly falling on infertile ground.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah I realise what I said can seem to be entering into tin-foil hat territory but given past goings on it is a concern. You have an interesting way of looking at the silence from VM and Phorm PR. I sure hope you are right.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Off topic, but a staggering example of government idiocy regarding privacy.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...s_tax_details/

"The Italian tax office published names, addresses, dates of birth, declared income, and tax paid. Which sounds to us like enough information to engage in a serious bit of identity theft."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This has now been published... :)

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/...es-in-20062007

Great work Alexander. :tu:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just to say hello. I have been monitoring this forum for a few weeks and following last night's plea have now registered. Following the whole saga with interest and help where I can with the technical issues which I think I understand quite well. Mixed views on the privacy aspects but strong views on the redirection and cookie implementation. You will have seen posts from me on BadPhorm, the BT Beta forums and newsgroups and elsewhere.

I was also a 'victim' of last years sysip.net trials and what it meant to me at the time. I have no wish to go through all that again.

Dave

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Dave and :welcome: to cable forum glad to have more help in the phight to not conphorm to phorm.

Ihave actually left VM due to their silence on phorm and now with a smaller ISP on ADSL where I know they will not use phorm they already have a poll on their personal forums where customers have voted they would leave if phorm was to be introduced mind the owner also said he would never implement it.

I hang around cableforum from habit and because I can still help at times with the fight the more that are wise to the phorm/webwise connections and what it implies the better.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@Alexander, great job on the dissertation. I think I just heard a final nail going in to the coffin. This document needs a widespread distribution!

Small point - second to last line on p9 you write "or implied negatived." Should that read 'negatively ? I should be a proof reader :P

Anyhow, very well done

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have to agree with you this is a great job Alexander has spent hours helping us with this issue now is the time for us to fight back with this as our flag.

We could send emails to all ISPs directors requesting their views on this report and if they would deploy phorm/webwise on their customers.

I have already tried two just waiting for feedback.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.out-law.com/page-9090

About what you'd expect given Pinsent Masons LLP's relationship with BT, basically says that, yes, ISPs implementing Phorm are probably breaking tons of laws, but that's OK, where's the harm ?

Seriously, that's what it says. Can't comment further now, blood boiling.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Will this story get picked up new the news wires ? now its a CF article ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ah so that's how the law works now

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yep... if you only break the law a little bit (or you're lining the pockets of someone high up perhaps?), you're ok

New to the forum after lurking for a while :wavey:

I've posted on the BT forum a few times, to no avail so thought I'd come here to help with the fight!

my thanks to Alexander and everyone else that has contributed so far, excellent work :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

After reading that link I come to the conclusion they are total pricks..

If these are personal views of this person why post as editor of Out law.com then I ask what right he has to post them as law?

His title is editor when he posts as editor it isnt personal views plus that website has become a joke we should not support it since the views are possibly biased. Possibly the type of website that can be bought out for the gold coin to post good about anything bad.

Further to this lin the website is registered to

Registrant:
Pinsent Masons
ATTN: OUT-LAW.COM
c/o Network Solutions
P.O. Box 447
Herndon, VA. 20172-0447

Do I see another yankie doodle that said take all typed by this editor with a pinch of salt.

---------- Post added at 14:14 ---------- Previous post was at 14:12 ----------

Hello mattyh :welcome: to the fight the ranks are growing we should be able to rock the boat harder and some phormites will fall into the sea. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We should take some encouragement from the article at least, since the very lawyers that have possibly been involved with advising BT on this issue have now publicly given their opinion that laws are being broken.

That might turn out not to be such a smart move on their part if it turns out that the CPS take a different view, or if someone can come up with a convincing legal argument showing that harm has in fact taken place, like, oh, I don't know, say a mass violation of Human Rights laws ? I note they take the Phorm line on the whole "implied consent" thing to, which is legally ridiculous as far as I can see (IANAL), viz google indexes pages, it doesn't intercept the user's interactions with a particular page, comparing the two seems fallacious in the extreme to me, but hey, IANA highly paid L for BT.

Interesting to see the DMA whinge and the Out-Law Out-Right admission of illegality turn up so close together. A different tack for the PR pixies, methinks, but perhaps not a wise one, sympathy for the DMA is low to non existent outside of that industry, for a start.

Fight desperate rearguard actions much PhormUKFlyingPRMonkeys ? You are so transparent I could use you as a component in a greenhouse, and you are still messing it up. No performance bonus for you lot this year.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: Matty :)

It's about time you posted here, you can never have enough of us trouble makers when it comes to Phorm :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's ok to break the law a little. OK.

Doesn't address the 2006/2007 trials where they broke the law a lot does he.

If this is the standard of legal advice they got there must be squeeky-bottys at Phorm towers just now.

Just break the law and hope they don't do you.

----

Looking at the share price, today, not one of the six billion people on the planet consider it to be a sure-fire winner to buy into.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

with my strong feelings about my children being profiled and being unable to provide any legal consent to have this done being put to one side, i have another interesting avenue to explore.

I have a cousin whos mentily handicaped (is this the correct PC term nowadays?) he goes online a lot to browse different flash based sites because he likes the cartoons and video clips on them.
He uses the internet frequently and although hes 19 he has the equivilent mental capacity of a nine year old at best. his litterary and numaracy skills are severely lacking.

Where does he stand is the informed consent debate? i mean i figure for informed consent you would need to fully understand the way in which a contract would impact on your life, without wanting to sound eletist or put the guy down in any way im fairly certain that thats beyond the level of his comprehension.

Even if i was presented a complete document detailing exactly what i was signing up to and indeed gave my full informed consent to be a battery hen where does that leave my cousin and others in the same situation, not to mention my children?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

suppose the best advice to give is what I did move to an ISP that has said they have no intentions of using Phorm. If BT and VM lost all the customers who didn't want to be phormed then thye can please themselves but the good names they trade under will be tarnished with phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The term is mental disability.

Now with regards to consent I'd say a child (especially below 12) cannot give informed consent and I would expect there are laws in place with regards to vulnerable adults too (I'll ask my wife later - she works extensively in this field).

As for Struan Robertson's article on out-law.com he says;
Well I've got some news for him - you obviously understand Phorm/Webwise (and the Internet) less than you think. For instance he also says;
Webmasters allow (and know how to dissallow) their sites to be indexed and Google don't hide what they do, they leave a trace in the Webmasters logs - Phorm/Webwise doesn't. You sign up to Hotmail with all its T&C's so if you don't like their way to provide free email use another. So what transgressions or harm is he on about? He doesn't understand does he.

I could go on but why bother, he's had a meeting with Kent and believes the sales pitch - how sad.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What annoys me about this prospect ( which I actually agree with ) is that I don't want to leave VM cable internet. I like having a 20mbit pipe, I'm aware that it will soon be a 50mbit pipe and I don't doubt that I'll have ( once again ) a 100mbit pipe for little more than I am paying now.
I'll never get this anywhere else in the UK unless I return to satellite and that cost me over a grand a month 7 years ago for 100mbit.

The fact is that the cable infrastructure is good and getting better. It annoys me that VM can use STM when their network is already so much more capable than even the planned upgrades. The fact of the matter is that they are at a price point that they feel is wrong and so rather than hike the prices too often they will explore revenue sources such as target advertising.

Does not work for me that way. I want my current experience for the current price. If you want to use me as an ingredient in your revenue pie then fine, let's discuss just how much reduction in my outlay you plan to offer me in exchange for my cooperation. Otherwise I'll just continue to pay for the service you are contractually obliged to give me and I'll not take anything different or extra. ( aimed at hypothetical VM rep reading this )

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would appreciate that.

<offtopic> i was rereading Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (Hunter S. Thompson) and came across a passage which kind of fits to this whole "A crime has been committed but who cares" mentality:
The only chance now, I felt, was the possibility that we'd gone to such excess that nobody in the position to bring the hammer down on us could possibility believe it.
The mentality of Las Vegas is so grossly atavistic that a really massive crime often slips by unrecognized.

Seems to fit rather well in the current political climate, a starving man shoplifts a loaf and winds up sentanced to life, whereas Corporations sell human rights to the highest bidder and seem to get away scot free.
</offtopic>

Im left wondering why we even got involved in fighting the world wars, clearly Hitler won and the rest of society was too busy celebrating to notice the fact.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

AHEM!

Ok If I can have everyone's Attention for a short while.

I was asked by popper to give Alexander Hanff a Special CF award in the Helpful Post of the Month thread for April

I declined and suggested he should get one of these.

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

I was then touched by Alex suggesting that perhaps this award should instead be given to BetBlowWhistler for his service in whistle blowing on BT in relation to it's covert and illegal testing of Phorm on it's unsuspecting customers and the subsequent loss of his job as a result.

I said to him that the award is his(it's not awarded very often) but that I would give BetBlowWhistler a unique award of his own.

Therefore I have great pleasure in unveiling a new award and that BetBlowWhistler is the very first recipient of this award.

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Let us hope for more folk to be worthy of this award-I'm sure we will.

Thank you for your patience and I hand you back to the Anti Phorm Campaign.



Coggy whois desperately trying to keep up and understand all the information being disseminated in the thread thus far.;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i sent comments about their clear avoidence of the exiting RIPA breaking 2006/7 trials.

and also pointed out yet again..., about the clear potential of the Bt executives and employee's involved in its activation and running being under threat of a real criminal conviction , pointing again to the clear existing case law.

"remember RIPA conviction for UK executives case law already exists.

the lost RIPA appeal of Stanford's
http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room...20Stanford.htm
"
Stanford Loses Criminal Appeal

3 February 2006

Stanford Loses Criminal Appeal...."

i assume many of you here have done so too by now!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It is actually quoted text so I kept it verbatim. But thanks for pointing it out.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 15:55 ---------- Previous post was at 15:49 ----------

I have been contacted by a major broadsheet who will be running an article on high risk technology stocks in the near future and wish to discuss the legal issues regarding Phorm. I have agreed to an "interview" (although I expect it will be Internet based and won't require a long road trip) and will keep you all updated as more news becomes available.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'll be changing broadband when VM start this, and given that I'm a VIP customer, i'll be dropping VM altogether.

I'm also a self-employing computer technician doing call outs, and will be definitely spreading the word to my customers. I have previously been recommending VM cable broadband to my customers, family and friends where applicable, but not any more. If I come across phorm webwise in the field, I will opt the user out, tell them the truth about it, and opt them back in if they wish. I will also recommend them to change their ISP to a phorm-less one.

I will be telling all my friends and family about webwise, and recommend them to switch ISP. I will also be urging them to tell everyone they know.

A lot of people on the VIP package like me, will probably be cancelling all services when VM introduce this crap.

There too many pages to check through, so perhaps someone can answer this for me.

Will the popup to get consent, be a web browser popup?
If so then how will it get past pop up blockers, etc.?
If not, then how do you think a personal firewall such as Comodo or even Vista's built-in one, will deal with it?

Didn't BT say that if the user does not agree or disagree to the popup, then they will have a dead internet connection.

Most PC's (from PC world, etc) come with Norton installed and some ISPs provide security software with a firewall.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Need some Diggs: http://digg.com/tech_news/Legal_Anal...7_Phorm_Trials

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The way I think it will work will be like when you first have to turn on your VM BB account. (i.e. no matter what website you go to you will be redirected to a phorm website with the info on it, until you have said yes or no). I don't think it will be a pop-up as such. I dont see this causing problems for firewalls etc either.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Also added the article to Slashdot. If people can click the following link it has a better chance of being published on Slashdot:

http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=650576

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm choked, I really am :cry: Thankyou both.

I should point out though that I didn't know about the covert testing in 2006/2007 so that wasn't me. The diagrams were though.

I also like the nice little touch of the filename for Alex's award ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Whoa just up on the Reg
Virgin Media distances itself from Phorm 'adoption' claims

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...rm_misleading/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT are moving on this one, and redesigning their trial on the fly to bring in a cookie free way of not being in the trial. They haven't finally confirmed that it will be ready for the trial, but I can't see them launching a trial dependent on an opt-out cookie. (unless they are really really stupid...)
They have NOT yet clarified what will be happening to the web traffic of non opted-in customers in this retrofitted system, or whether non opted-in customers will get their browsing broken by blocking the webwise related domains. In fact they have left all the really important questions very vague. Their latest date for starting the trials is by May 26th.

They haven't said how the Webwise invitation will arrive or where or when or what the page will say. I'll let you know anything I find out by posting here.

And yes - I realise that whatever they do, the trial will still be illegal. And I've told them that again today through several routes.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

VM Officially Respond to customer's concerns about Phorm.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...rm_misleading/

Alexander Hanff

Meh Beaten Again!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Very interesting.

---------- Post added at 16:59 ---------- Previous post was at 16:58 ----------

Well done for finding this. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Deep joy!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The fact that VM feel the need to do this shows they are worried about the adverse publicity. This reaffirms that they are 'just' sitting on the fence.

Time to double efforts then.

BT, VM and Phorm must be at it hammer and tongs behind the scenes and it will be the little 'un that gets squashed.

Too late today to hit the share price unfortunately.

-----

The link from the VM 'Customer Zone' now says Phorm and webwise. (It was just webwise before). Nice of them to make the link.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Come on VM! Keep distancing yourself, as long as you eventually say "we're not going to work with these crooks". I could really do without having to change TV and ISP, I like what I've got now...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Surely its a big no no to tell outright lies in your annual report. Or at least be misleading.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is making my day - lets see the stock price plummet tomorrow hopefully.

Come on VM - you know you want to do the good thing - kick it into touch completely! I dont want to change my ISP, or TV - especially since iPlayer was launched on VM TV yesterday - its brill (although some of the interface needs some tweaking - like adding dates to list etc)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

pmsl

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Tankety-tank

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...=summary&it=le

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...rm_misleading/

About bloody time too. :)

Now if VM want to borrow a 20ft barge pole, i'm sure i've got one lying around somewhere

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

First off may I welcome those awards for Alexander and BetBlowWhistler. I wholeheartedly think both are very deserving of recognition.

The VM news is very welcome and a nice bit of news to return home to. Viva la resistance!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/05/39.png

Wishful thinking perhaps?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@Alexander

Did Kent refer to the VM tie-in in the click interview?

Strikes me that if he did, the BBC can't not reference the VM statement. He might end up looking an even bigger idiot.:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Guilty! :dunce:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can't remember off the top of my head.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh and forgot to say that I digged the dissertation news item Alexander as requested.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's probably too late to add into this weeks Click which I thought came online on Friday but I just read a Click article ( Identity 'at risk' on Facebook) and at the end it says;
Does that mean that report is available on it's own or as part of the full Click which Alexander is in?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We need more digg and slashdot action, you would be amazed how coverage on those 2 sites alone can send an issue viral in hours. If more people here register on both sites and digg up/firehose articles as they become available it will make a significant difference to public awareness. So please everyone, go digg and firehose the following:

http://digg.com/tech_news/Legal_Anal...7_Phorm_Trials
http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&id=650576

Lots of tech news sites and high profile bloggers use slashdot and digg as a primary news source.

As you can see here, Phorm articles performances on Digg have been particularly poor:

http://digg.com/search?s=Phorm&submi...all&sort=score

We need to keep the pressure on and make sure as much news gets posted to as many relevant web sites as possible.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Had an email back from Amazon they are still checking phorm with their legal department and will update me on the 7th May.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Evening all.

Indeed, about bloody time. Of course this has to be in no small way due to the pressure put on VM by everyone here. We've been advocating a public statement from VM for how long now?

This statement exposes the "overzealousness" of Phorm's PR - something we already knew here but which deserves and is now getting wider exposure.

It also matches more closely the statement read to me by a contact from Neil Berkett's office which ended up being sent out to some people here as a standard response. The page seems to be a response to my direct questions about Phorm testing.

I do note that nowhere does it mention that no tests have previously been undertaken. That is still a concern but this statement is a definite kick in the unmentionables for Phorm.

But look at these phrases:

"possible implementation"
"preliminary agreement"
"not yet decided"
"not be forced to use the system"
"If we go ahead with deployment"

Spin that PhormUKPRteam!

Oh yes PhormUKPRteam - you might want to suggest that companies like Charles Stanley refrain from producing "documents" that suggest that things which haven't actually taken place have. I'm talking about the suggestion of testing on page 5. The language is sufficently obfuscating and vague but I read it as suggesting VM have done a BT. I'm sure Neil Berkett found that to be very interesting reading.

Anyone who's mooching this thread as a guest, please register and join in the discussion. I would also urge you to write and professionally suggest that VM drop Phorm (for reasons of legality and because VM's reputation is taking a serious hammering) to Neil Berkett at


I've got a missed call from a VM number on my phone, a different number too. I did ask for a written response as I'm engaged on other work now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

big no no is an understatement..

Making or certifying misleading financial statements exposes those involved to substantial civil and criminal liability.

..ask bernie ebbers

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh that one was originally named in honour of the first recipient.;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Might explain lack of Pro Video of public meeting.

If VM have been putting pressure on not to repeat the 'slur'.

Time to review the Good Captains footage and maybe ask 80/20 to comment on any misleading quotes.

C4 news may have some footage that they may like to review in light of todays news and do another article on it?

---------- Post added at 18:37 ---------- Previous post was at 18:34 ----------

Do these financial statements need to be signed off by auditors?

E&Y?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

the facebook story just got 3 minutes on bbc1 news and it referenced the url above.

it seems they can explain the facebook app linking threat just fine, but not so the Phorm DPI intercepting threat thats connected directly to the other end of your Broadband wires....

i beleaved they would lead with Alexanders Phorm threat and the IT show background (shame we dont know what was covered at the IT show to base some guesses on).

and it seemed they would lead it as a security related Click! Episode, but perhaps with the Facebook being the easyer to explain, they may lead on that instead.....

i guess it all cames down to what gets the viewers more angry!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I rate accountancy houses only just above cockroaches and PR departments. I understood that financial statements had to be signed off by auditing accountants as a true and fair reflection of the situation and performance of the business.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The freeview programme guide for Saturday's Click says :-

"The tech team uncovers a security flaw in facebook which could compromise the privacy of it's users. Plus an interview with highly controversial online ad system, Phorm. Includes news and web reviews."

No hype then.;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

if anyones got the contact details of the Click! and C4 News researchers , it might be werth doing a recap of events in the last few days and remind them of the details that are getting aired in a very limited or abstract way, and others that are being swept under the carpet regarding the 2006/7 BT trials (outlaw etc),
the case law,lost RIPA appeal of Stanford's
http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room...20Stanford.htm
"
Stanford Loses Criminal Appeal

3 February 2006

Stanford Loses Criminal Appeal..."

make their research easy and layed out in a simple and clear line, and they may thank you for doing the hard work for them, with nothing more than to simply confirm it all and re-edit the video footage they already have ;)

i see alexanders used the CF news page to good effect and its got out on the wires far and wide now, i expect the CF hits to be rising this month ;)

we perhaps need more good writers (so thats me out of it then ;) ) to submit some related stories to help get the facts out as we know it in time for the Click! and other related stories.

rather than the obscure stuff of the last few days, perhaps you will write something and submit it?.....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Many thanks for Alexander for your great paper on the 2006/7 trials. I am about a third of the way through it, but it looks good so far.

In para 3.1.3 you say "In the case of the secret trials carried by BT PLC in 2006 and 2007 Deep Packet Inspection went one step further in that it altered the contents of the network stream. In order to test the effectiveness of the targeted advertising system (OIX), software source code called Java Script was injected into the network stream to alter the webpage the end user was delivered on their screen, in order to display
advertising banners which had not been placed there by the content owner and download a cookie file onto the end user's computer.[15]"

In the case of the 2006 trial there is indeed evidence that javascript was added to webpages. However the 2007 BT trials appeared to use a different implementation and when I was 'trialled' at that time I am pretty sure there was never any javascript added to the pages I browsed. In particular when I found my own website accessed via sysip.net which raised my concerns I deliberately looked at the source which came back to me and it was exactly the same as my original. I also do not recall any suspicious cookies from sysip.net or elsewhere arriving on my computer either (I look through my cookies regularly and would have certainly noticed them). So I suspect they were just checking the 307 redirection process in those trials.

Will let you know if I notice any other errors (tomorrow now, about to go out).

Dave

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Indeed.. p12 of the AP. and I'm sure they are correct and in good order.. El Reg comment and quote would seem to be directed at the validity of parts of the Chairman's statement on p6.

What the law is regarding this i have no clue for IANAL.... :D (always wanted to say that)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting

Preliminary results 10th April

http://www.phorm.com/reports/Prelimi...0-Apr-2008.pdf

Tie in with VM quoted


Final results 30th April

http://www.phorm.com/reports/2007_Final_Results.pdf

No mention of VM :dunce:

Auditors = Deloitte & Touche

-----

They're having a barney.

-----


http://www.phorm.com/investors/reports.php

Anyone know what the 'RNS' stands for on the 10th April link and if it was there a few days ago?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Try p6 and p7 :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To keep upto date on Phorm stories on Digg add the following url to your RSS reader:

http://digg.com/rss_search?search=Ph...th&section=all

Slashdot unfortunately don't offer an RSS for searches.

On another note I just had an hour long phone call with Claer Barrett who writes for the Investors Chronicle at Financial Times about Phorm and RIPA. It was a very constructive discussion and I extended gratitude on behalf of us all to the Financial Times for getting actively involved in the issue.

I will let you all know when the article is due to be published.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

'RNS' Regulatory news service?

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/e...ducts/irs/rns/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They talk about agreements with 3 key ISP's, but I can't find the word 'virgin' in the whole document, whereas you can in the preliminary.

I take the point though. Who is the 3rd key ISP they have an agreement with?

BT + CPW + ?

Or are they using the word agreement in a very wide sense?;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I understand that they are pretty relaxed about these things in Delaware...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting - I thought the FT were one of those signed up to OIX?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Where is the lie. Different spin. VM have announced they signed an MOU which probably included an exclusivity clause. Phorm announced they have an exclusive agreement with VM, which they do.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

After receiving a call on my answer phone last Saturday and a follow up email which stated if and when Virgin Media adopted Phorm it would be Opt in, I finally managed to get hold of the lady who called and left her number (and extension) in their customer services (She called me back @ work today!).

She admitted to me after the first sentence or two that she knew little about the technical aspects of Webwise/Phorm but had read all the 'advertised literature' given to VM and I must say what a pleasant and reasonable lady she was to talk to. She listened to all my concerns about Phorm (& 121 Media past history), allowed me to explain in simple technical terms that I would consider my data still being intercepted if it still went through Phorms black box after I had opted out even if it was 'not' profiled. I also explained I would consider that under my DPA notice I would not even expect to see any later opt in or opt out notice should Phorm be implemented in the future as I had already opted out using section 11 of the DPA via a written letter.

To be fair she listened to all I had to say and I left the phone call feeling that she would go away and find out a little more about it and Phorm for herself.

Nothing has changed but hopefully the more people who complain by letter and explain to customer services why they are unhappy this will help the privacy cause and help eradicate the possibility of this inbuilt 'spyware' at the ISP.

To do nothing is a mistake and I felt better for the effort I have made so far voicing my concerns. So don't just post on the forums or the The Register etc. please also communicate directly with the ISP.

Incidentally, great news that VM have contradicted Phorm's claims that they had already signed up to Phorm/Webwise. It's not over yet!!

Isn't there a law against attempting to inflate the share price by being 'economical with the truth'?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Directors reports are checked for consistency with the FS but forward looking statements are more covered by listing authority rules.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Que? The final report still mentions Virgin. However, the final seems to be scanned, ad thus is not searchable.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Doh. My apologies everyone.:monkey:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I find it hard to believe any of Phorm's statements now. Certainly at the 80/20 Meeting during the questions panel Kent was put to task over the Guardian dropping them and he made a bit of a slip along the lines of No company have actually signed up to OIX yet but they are in discussion with lots of interested parties.

I would need to see the video (yes calling Simon shortly) of the question panel at the end of the meeting to clarify on that but I am pretty sure it was along those lines.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Regulatory News Service

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Done and done. :tu:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

FT.COM amongst those mentioned here http://www.phorm.com/about/launch_agreement.php

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

any spread bets for tomorrow? lol :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hmm, could this be construed as incitement to commit a felony?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Welcome to the new joiners and thank you for coming from the shadows. Currently there are 37 members and 38 guests viewing this thread; discounting the spies there are still a few decent people out there who can provide the support needed now that we at least seem to be on the cusp of a change in ISP attitude. Please join up and join in.

VM's apparent change of stance is very encouraging. Tbh, I do not want to change my ISP and am more than happy to continue supporting VM's business through my subscriptions. VM must realise by now that Phorm could well be their undoing with so many normally mild-mannered customers absolutely against this technology. Please, please shape up Virgin; if you lose support, you may never regain it and that, in the long run, would make us all losers.

No PIA. No video. No PR Spin. They tried to make us go to webwise and we said no, no, NO!

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men (and women) do nothing". (Edmund Burke)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Doh! I've just noticed that I'm not logged in (deleted cookies, etc. after the video site hijack scare a few days ago) so one of those lurkers was me! Also, I often check the latest news here from work when I'm on nights, but do it without logging-in (my employer's IT department has some dodgy individuals working for them that I suspect deploy keyloggers on some network machines so I won't do anything from work that entails a personal log in)

:clap: That's exactly how I feel.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you might use this google news search with the site: directive set for /.

perhaps you can use google rss in some way to feed your own Rss, i dont use rss so not really sure

http://news.google.com/news?oe=utf-8...nG=Search+News

you might be better to use this basic REBOL script as a base to parse slashdot and/or combine it with the above in some way ?....

------------cut
url: read http://slashdot.org/index.rss
parse/all url [
any [
<title> copy title to </title>
(print title)

|
<description> copy desc to </description>
(print desc)
|
skip
]
to end
]
-------------cut

taken from here
http://www.oreilly.com/pub/a/mac/200...scripting.html

i cut and pasted it into the rebol view shell, and it parses the url and displays the text......

but it needs more work to make it look pritty, perhaps a GUI scrolly banner rebol script example exists, if you can be bothered to find it, and add its content if your a happy script writer Alexander...

btw http://www.ispreview.co.uk/news/EkpAyuVypuhUqUpcQx.html
01 May, 2008 - 1:40 PM
Alexander Hanff's Legal Analysis of the Phorm Trials
Cable Forum's Alexander Hanff has made public his dissertation on a legal analysis of BT's secret Phorm trials, which took place during 2006 and again in 2007. Hanff has carefully analysed the relevant EU and UK laws, statutes and directives to find that, "fundamental legal requirements were not met."

Hanff goes on to conclude that BT's covert trials were illegal under criminal law and unlawful under common law, pointing towards the need for relevant public authorities to, "officially investigate the matter in the interests of public justice.":

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

<delurks>
That's me!

Hi all, I have the dubious honour of being with BT and have posted to their forums.

May I add my thanks to the people who are doing so much to stop this nastiness. You know who you are!

Nothing that I can add to what has already been said on this and the BT threads, but if enough of us make our voices heard it must make a difference.

Dave

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Understood ;).


My worry is that VM could underestimate the backlash if the deployment goes ahead. Internet users are a savvy bunch (as this thread proves) and if VM try to railroad them, the vitriol spewed in The Apprentice will seem like a kiddies tea party :D.

Welcome Dave! :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Glad my message in the Mods on ISPr worked :)

We are still a long way from completing this but we are on the right track and getting there.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I contacted VM telling them that if they went ahead with this I would be cancelling my VIP service and going elsewhere. I told them I would be recommending that family, friends and customers change ISP if this is launched, and that they will be getting no more recommendations from me until they have announced that they have abandoned this hair-brained scheme. I let them know that I've put a lot of custom their way, and can and will take those customers away from them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I dugg this too. I know it's nearly cheating as a duplicate but still, the more the merrier eh? Dig in boys and girls.

http://digg.com/tech_news/Alexander_...e_Phorm_Trials

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Welcome GoldenBoar ;). Come on you lurkers, get behind the people who are sticking their necks out on our behalf. Whilst people like Alexander are self-motivated, you can't beat actually knowing that the support you have is growing. It may make all the difference.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://digg.com/tech_news/Legal_Anal...7_Phorm_Trials

I digg'd it. My first ever digg.

Then...
http://digg.com/tech_news/Alexander_...e_Phorm_Trials

My second ever digg :)

A very happy digger ;)

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank god finally caught up with the end of this thread :confused:
I have just read an article in this weeks MicroMart entitled Bad phorm
by Mark Pickervance and i'm pleased to say he likes them about as much as we do; he doesn't find a single redeeming feature in four pages of comment and ends with "I would leave any ISP who implemented this"
I was starting to wonder when someone would give them a good shoeing in the computer press

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You talkin' to me?</De Niro Voice>

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've done whatever you call posting it on reddit too.

Shouldn't the past tense of "digg" be "dugg" rather than "digged"?

That's a rhetorical question btw :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I guess so punk </De Niro Voice> :) Welcome!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Front Porch use the same DPI Kit and interception as Phorm and NebuAd , but pass their data collection on to other Ad services rather than feed and run their own direct ad webwise type service.... as far as i understand at least...it may be different today?

i had not looked at Front Porch's tech details as yet as it was thought they hasnt got to the Uk at the time, but now it may need addressing!

this report is dated April 3rd 2001, have they been breaking the RIPA all this time (well since it became law)in the UK, how about the other laws in Alexanders PDF too, as they have been around far longer..

the linked page says they/Front Porch dont use cookies so that leaves direct ISP given (as per the EU data commissioners point) personal IP address as per the NebuAd way.....

mel on http://www.ispreview.co.u #24
"
Saw this news item from 2001 Front Porch Signs Major ISP; Madasafish Subscribers to Gain Enriched Experience With Personalized Content Delivery posted on badphorm!
__________________
Please sign the petition against ISPs monitoring your browsing activity for advertising purposes

Why Phorm Webwise is Bad
"

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m..._3/ai_72690188
"Front Porch Signs Major ISP; Madasafish Subscribers to Gain Enriched Experience With Personalized Content Delivery

Business Wire, April 3, 2001

SAN DIEGO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--April 3, 2001
Front Porch Inc., a developer of intelligent network services that enable ISPs to distribute personalized content to Internet users, broadened its online media network by signing one of Europe's fastest growing ISPs, London-based Madasafish.

Under the terms of the contract, Front Porch and Madasafish will partner to manage the ISP's entire advertising inventory utilizing Front Porch's anonymous, cookie-free user profiling and content insertion system.

Madasafish has become known in Europe not only for its youthful and funky brand appeal but for its unique marketing approach that encourages its members to define the types of services and information available including music, movies and games.....
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Too right... Appreciating that inserting video into a web page is a bit more than standard HTML, they have managed to update the Events page of the 80/20 Thinking website to show their launch date in London. Does editing some video reaallly take so long though?

I'm grateful that others took cameras along. It could simply be that they hoped saying that it would be filmed and uploaded would reduce the chances of anyone else bothering. By saying that I do NOT mean a slurr on Simon of 80/20, however like many of us I think it's fair enough that we now have to believe that the content is being deliberately stalled.

Stalled because 80/20 Thinking is not able to publish and not due to technical reasons but because they are under contract which prevents them perhaps?

Yes, I agree with other posts here... behind the scenes there are disagreements on the best next steps and I hope that Simon gets paid because he seems a decent fellow who is being tarnished by the association with K*nt's business.

Get digging all!

http://digg.com/tech_news/Legal_Anal...7_Phorm_Trials
http://digg.com/tech_news/Alexander_...e_Phorm_Trials

Hank