Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

It is understood the Barmier has had to change his underpants four times today:)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

More Project Fear from the Torygraph...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...rexit/#comment

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

The final two paragraphs are key, although HMG (and especially former Telegraph employee Boris) is meant to take note of the whole thing. This piece is a gun to his head, threatening withdrawal of support if he goes soft on Brexit (as defined by the Telegraph). It’s clear the paper’s editorial line is that if Britain doesn’t get what it wants, then Britain should walk. On pain of the Telegraph making life utterly miserable for Boris. Given that the Telegraph undoubtedly knows where at least some of the bodies are buried, it’s a threat Boris might just take seriously.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Don't see any fear mongering there.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

BoJo has a great ability to successfully elude the downsides of scandal. I don't think there's much the Telegraph has on him that is going to caude him sleepless nights. Only the possibility of of losing the red wall seats and of course his young child will cause him sleepless nights.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

The only fear-mongering comes from the poster.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Boris is a shitebag. He will fold.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

This poster? ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

They were always going to lose those seats, they were only ever on loan and there's plenty the paper could have on him, like the actual number of children he's fathered

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

That's because at the end of this all, if things are not the resounding success we were promised, it won't be Boris Johnsons fault. It's never Boris Johnsons fault.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Often, it's what people don't say that's more important than what they do say.

I think this is true here as I don't see disagreement with jfman's prediction that Boris will fold. ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

As Lord Byron said

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I guess that's why Germany are still throwing £billions at their automotive industry, . . . not that we have one to throw at least £27 at though ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I wouldn’t read too much into posting patterns on here. There are lots of reasons why people duck in and out. Sheer boredom with circular discussion would be one of them. People presenting endless newspaper op eds as evidence of the veracity of their own opinions when there’s actually no news is another.

By way of balancing the opinion pieces a little, Laura K over at the BBC warned yesterday that the gap between the two sides is still significant and there’s no reason to believe a last minute solution in traditional EU style is inevitable in this case.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55358554

And Katya Adler, the Europe Editor who at times sounds to my Brexitty ears like a full on regime apologist for the EU, is warning that the politics of fishing in the coastal states (and the UK) is such that no deal is looking increasingly attractive if the alternative is a muddy, convoluted compromise that nobody is happy with.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55358963

FWIW I don’t think a compromise on fishing is possible. It has become totemic, it’s just about the only euroscepic issue that gets any traction in Scotland, and both Boris and Macron have dug themselves some very deep trenches. Macron has already said there will be a financial compensation scheme for French trawler operators if they’re barred from entering the UK EEZ, which means he’s no longer shackled to promises of ongoing access that will come back to bite him when he goes for re-election in 2022. In my ‘umble opinion, the stars are aligning for No Deal.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

This is fundamental. It is the arrogance of the EU to think they have a “right” to enter the economic waters of an independent nation.

This could be something to do with it.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

What's going on down the M20, I'm supposed to go to Ashford later, don't like the look of the roads one bit

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

French fishermen blocking the docks :D

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Agreed. The contect I was referring to was that only part of a shoet post was challenged suggesting the rest was on the money. But other reasons why this might be the case.

I think a deal is possible on fishing as it will save BoJo's skin and what politician doesn't want to do that?

The obvious negotiation is around the time period of a change. From what I've read, fishermen are now more alert to the increased dangers to their European markets. Statements made by Tavish Scott, chief executive of the Scottish Salmon Producers Organisation (UK's largest food export worth £618m) on the necessity of a deal, will have reminded fishermen that no-deal is not the win-win situation they might once have believed it to be. And that's before any actions by French fishermen are factored in.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Tavish Scott is the former leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats and a minister in the last Lib/Lab coalition. He was an MSP until last year.

As with all Liberal Democrat politicians, everything he says should be understood in the Euro-enthusiast way it is always offered.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

The French fisherman are threatening to kick off. Well the Royal Navy will not care.



https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-fr...-deal-12166812

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

All they have to do is blockade the ports. The French are very good at that sort of thing.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

What difference would that make to anyone?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

That would be so funny to see :D

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

It would cripple our fishing industry for a start Most of the catch goes to the EU.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Any kind of co-operation goes out of the window if we go up against an EU state. Talk of the Royal Navy is just to keep the more zealous Brexiters on board. Realistically, it's a hollow threat.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I was unaware that our entire fishing export landed in France. Do please elaborate.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

UK fleet catches a lot of herring, 93% of which is exported, mostly to Norway and the Netherlands.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

The thing about exports is they usually have to go via ports/airports. If some French rotters block the roads from these places then that's an issue.We can catch all the fish we want but if we can't sell or it has tariffs applied then its a bit pointless. The British don't eat the fish, we're too fond of McDonalds/KFC.

If you need a fuller explanation please let me know ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Fisheries protection is a civil matter and it goes on all year round come what may. Even within the EU there are rules to be enforced. Military assistance will add a symbolic dimension to the work the fisheries patrol already does and will continue to do. It won’t make a vast difference in terms of number of ships available seeing as the UK EEZ is huge, especially as it extends into the Atlantic Ocean north and west of Ireland. However, if one of the RN vessels comes across a French boat visiting its lobster pots it will have to act. I agree that would represent an escalation in symbolic terms at least, however it is a dangerous precedent indeed for any country not to defend its home territory and it is a dangerous misrepresentation of such defence to characterise it as ‘going up against’ another state.

---------- Post added at 19:55 ---------- Previous post was at 19:48 ----------

Yes, yes I would please if that’s ok. If you could further explain how successful French fishermen have historically been at blocking access to Rotterdam and Antwerp that would be great. Also the channel tunnel if you have time.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

:D:D

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Hopefully Boris will see sense. But for now
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55381322

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Boris is seeing sense. It just doesn't fit your "roll over and accept" stance.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

We'll find out soon enough either way. ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Or perhaps, hopefully the EU will see sense. I believe he has correctly understood what was the essence of the Brexit vote and is pursuing it. The EU on the other hand is hoping for precisely the sort of fold you want Boris to make.

There is a deal to be done, but until the EU takes the difficult intellectual step of accepting a member state has left the union and that this entails its full resumption of sovereign control over its territory and affairs, then that deal cannot be done. They have only days left to turn this around.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Agree that there is a deal to be done.

Foremost, the EU needs to protect the Single Market. So if the UK wants tariff-free access, which some Brexiters still believe the UK is automatically entitled to; courtesy of British exceptionalism; then some form of level playing field agreement does not look unreasonable.

Fishing rights should be solvable. UK fishermen have woken up to their EU markets effectively ending with no deal so should be willing to accept a phased approach here.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

The EU are not offering a phased approach tough. They seem to think they still have control of a sovereign countries waters.

Meanwhile French fishermen have woken up that they may no longer have access to British waters.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

There's sound environmental reasons why these talks need to succeed.
https://www.strath.ac.uk/whystrathcl...alksbreakdown/

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Sorry, but what the what now?

No mathematical model can predict political decisions. All it can do in this case is predict fish stocks based on different fishing patterns. Attempting to use these models in the way the university has done is inherently political because it has had to make political assumptions in deciding which models to run and how to report the data (which it has done in a press release that has clearly taken a political stance on the issue).

The tragedy here is that the uneducated will look at this and go 'ooo science' without being able to see the blatantly political way the science is being exploited.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I think the part in bold could apply to more than fishing & Brexit ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

What bollocks, nobody believes we are “entitled” and it is nothing to do with “British exceptionalism” which I haven’t seen any evidence of. There’s been plenty of EU exceptionalism however.

We just want a deal based on trade and equivalence of product standards, which is what you expect from a trade deal.

The EU are adding a political dimension to it, and it has bugger all with protecting the “single market” and everything to do with control and anti-competition. The EU is the biggest protectionist outfit on the planet.

Yes it does. We can agree not to lessen standards from this point, but if we want to diverge away from EU legislation in the future it is reasonable and correct, as long as our product is still has equivalence. What the EU want is anti-competitive.

Why, don’t EU residents eat fish?

If they don’t buy our fish, I can see the headlines already as EU seafood restaurants hike prices or go out of business because they can’t get enough fish and Atlantic Shrimp.

Don’t be daft.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I see the logic in a phased approach. Though given how much of the English fishing rights have been sold to our Continental friends, I wonder what's actually up for grabs?

I'm not speaking for the EU, just explaining their motivations.

---------- Post added at 17:17 ---------- Previous post was at 17:13 ----------

I'm sure your post is a thing of beauty and would convince Barnier he is in the wrong. But with that introduction I'm afraid you've lost my attention!

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Well it’s accurate, and that you choose to not address the points raised speaks volumes.

In fact you don’t need to respond, your silence is deafening.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

We're already great, Seph, we're both very privileged to live in such a great country. Are you indicating that we'll all have to work harder to maintain our existing standards of living in the event of our failing to negotiate a deal?

The fishing industry is unlikely to prosper through Brexit as Brexit delivers increased red tape, form-filling and delays. Delays = lower prices as freshness is everything. See Live shellfish exporters in England have warned a wave of form-filling, certification and tariffs will hit the industry in 2021.

I've seen so much nonsense written about the EU's position, with snowflakes claiming that they're trying to punish us, that it's sometimes useful to revisit the facts.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

mostly by you;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

The foolishness of no-extension in such unique circumstances is now more apparent than ever.
https://www.ft.com/content/9c9e5248-...3-954a844d459e

---------- Post added at 22:08 ---------- Previous post was at 22:05 ----------

Not really.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Yes really.........and still nothing of any note from you.

Why bother responding at all?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

More remainer BS from the FT.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Yes a very unreliable source i'm sure :rolleyes:, out of interest where do you gather your pearls of wisdom on these matters ?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

An argument that commences with "What Bollocks" is a red flag to me. Such diatribes tend to be built on the foundations of sand and possess the longevity of a chocolate teapot.

But I digress. We'll know soon enough where we stand on the deal front.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

It’s an opinion piece. It’s an entirely reliable representation of the views of someone who still thinks we shouldn’t be leaving the EU and should remain as closely tied to it as possible, for as long as possible.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

If fishing quotas are increased then that's a political decision which could result in different fishing patterns. This is case of looking at a series of probabilities.

To start reading a political stance into the press release is a significant leap. The University will want to maximise the exposure of its work and if its research generates such evidence it will the consider whether such a headline is worth deploying v any offence it might cause.

---------- Post added at 23:03 ---------- Previous post was at 22:58 ----------

We've already left the EU.

Conflating a desire to extend our current relationship with the EU because of Covid 19 with a desire to remain closely tied to the EU is poor judgment.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Well of course it’s political. The choice to highlight one particular outcome and issue a press release on it at the climax of the most politically divisive event of modern times can’t be construed any other way.

---------- Post added at 23:10 ---------- Previous post was at 23:09 ----------

As with Pierre, you’re hiding your weak arguments behind pedantry. As Pierre already observed, your preference to avoid the issue speaks volumes.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Alas, the facts don't fit your words. The press release is from March 2020.

Not really.
a) Compelling arguments are highly unlikely to be preceded with the words "What bollocks" and b) Someone resorting to such emotive language is not going to be swayed by a rational counter argument.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Not just in this thread but PLEASE can we stop posting links that require subscription.

It's so annoying when you want to read the source article but can't...... :(

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

There's a way to access a lot of paywall content, often by Googling the headlines or registering for a limited number of free articles a month. Which in Mr K's lucky case, gave him free access to the Telegraph forever!

Like TV content, some premium news content is not available for free and is not available elsewhere.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

you could swap Bollocks for, poppycock, balderdash, nonsense. It wasn't emotive, I was trying to succinctly summarise what you had posted. I think I did a pretty good job too. I then went on to make several valid points that you ran away from.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I'm sure Hugh posted a comment about self-praise being no praise at all but you may not have seen it. Anyway, I digress. It looks like you might actually be serious so like a hungry fish, I'll bite.

Are you simply cutting and pasting EU for British or do you have any evidence to back up your claim? Plenty of evidence to support British exceptionalism from the "they need us more than we need them" to the German car manufacturers driving to our rescue."

You might think that but in trade deals, everything including the kitchen sink is thrown in. Hence the statement about nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

If the UK decided to subsidise its car manufacturers then the Single Market - a key selling point of EU membership - would be damaged by unfair competition from the UK.
In reality, this is highly unlikely as the UK is a high-cost, high-skills country so it should have nothing to fear by agreeing to a level playing field enforceable in British courts.
We've done the fishing argument before.

Also worth noting that the value of fish is all about freshness. New certification processes and port delays render it less fresh and therefore it will be worth less at European markets, potentially rendering it uneconomic to export. The law of unintended cobsequences.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Alright, so. France has basically shut the border and other EU states are following suit. An EU-wide closure is now possible.

This is a perfect opportunity for the UK to walk away from these sham negotiations and establish WTO terms with the EU. With cross border trade at a standstill already, it will prevent tedious remainiac reports on the BBC on new year’s day, blaming the logjam on Brexit. And we know they’ll try - many of us have yet to forget the BBC’s complicity in denying the pressure put on many of our communities by unmanaged intra-EU migration, as typified by their propagandist “nothing to see here” reporting from Heathrow and Victoria coach station on 1 January 2014 just because the entire populations of Bulgaria and Romania didn’t show up on day one.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

FRANCE will aim to establish Europe-wide sanitary protocol measures "in the coming hours" to allow the resumption of traffic flows with the United Kingdom, transport minister Jean-Baptiste Djebbari has said.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-travel-update



https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-...rance-12169250

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

You forgot the population of Turkey as well....

---------- Post added at 11:46 ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 ----------

The french being typically awkward and trying to prove a point

Oh wait, hang on.....

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Some MPs are calling for the talks to be extended. Bearing in mind most of them wanted to stay.


Well no they've had enough time, they are more interested is plundering our fish stocks, they've already destroyed theirs.


As I said meany years ago, if it costs me my job then so be it I still want a no deal.


I did lose my job but this was coronavirus related.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Jingoistic drivel.

Evidence that shows 'they' have destroyed their own fish stocks please?

You've lost your job, genuinely sorry to hear that, but you would be happy for a potential double whammy of Covid & Brexit to allow for thousands, tens of thousandsm maybe even hundreds of thousands of people to find themselves in the same position that you do?

Such empathy, such a man....

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Easy to say you're happy to lose your job when you hate it and live at home with your dad...

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

10 days to go chaps, keep the futile arguments going, it's so funny :p:

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Debate is generally a good thing, it gives people the opportunity to learn and to question, quite why you think such a thing is futile and to decree it as a 'futile argument' is beyond me.

A shame really as you usually bring higher standards to discussions.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

oh no I don't :p:

There really isn't much to debate, we leave - with or without a deal - when the clock has stopped ringing in the new year, there will be no further extension fiasco, and a deal is looking as imminent as me wining the Euromillions lottery . . which I don't do. ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I never said I'd be happy, I just said I wanted a no deal even if it did cost mt job.


I didn't hate the job, I just got angry at the internal politics, where normal staff could influence the boss, just because they had been there over 40 years.


Yes I do live with dad, but given the current nightmare, I would have moved back home until this situation ends.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

We've already left the EU, it's just the form our relationship with the EU that will be hammered out not only this year but in future years. So, there will always be a debate. ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I wouldn't discount Boris flip flopping again.... ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

There's no majority for no deal in Parliament and no majority for it amongst the electorate. Does he pander to the ERG or perform another of his trade mark u-turns?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Surely "Deal means Deal"?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I'm actually surprised that Andrew has found the time to contact the whole 'electorate' to ask them about 'no deal'

Maybe he'd be better employed in track n trace :D

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Exactly. :tu:

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Funny, you said something similar previously- I don’t remember you calling that ‘content-free"?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Pedantry means pedantry;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I've not seen that level of detail in the public domain.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Then it's a bit of a punt to to guess what the majority of MPs think.
There will almost certainly be differences of opinion as to what the deal should contain failing which some of those MPs would accept no deal.

So why did you say what you said? Particularly since MPs won't be able to ratify no deal.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

I'm not guessing, I've read it in an article. I'll share it if I find it again.

But Hugh's comparison to "Brexit means Brexit" is a fair one.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Not always 😅

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

No one could ever accuse you of attention to detail... ;)

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

WTO deal. Done!

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

That’s "No Deal" (or Australian style, if you prefer...).

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Possible concession from the U.K on fishing rights: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...box=1608581901

Things are edging ever so slowly towards a deal. It depends if France are happy of course.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Sounds promising, particularly the UK's acceptance of a a five-year phase-in period for the new arrangements.

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

My mistake

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

? As much evidence you do to back your claim.

I haven’t seen any thing posted that says they need us more than we need them, or that German car manufacturers will ride to our “rescue”. That is Your emotive rhetoric. Certainly nothing about British exceptionalism, it appears to be a fiction of yours


that is a well trodden EU trope, for all other nations a trade agreement is based on trade, not politics.

. You can argue with yourself all day.

You do however, showcase fundamental misunderstanding of the entire, “level playing field” issue.

Did you manage to solve it?

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

You're not giving me much material to go on, Pierre. My claims have been oft-repeated and I'm surprised you have not seen them. Here's a link to one of them in the hope of reciprocity
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35409274

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Blinking flip, get a room, you two :D

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 

That was all that was requested of me. ;)

---------- Post added at 23:10 ---------- Previous post was at 22:55 ----------

Unfortunately, it's occupied by Hom3r and The Daddy. :D