Re: Coronavirus
 

Well said, and spot on.

Re: Coronavirus
 

As I said I don't have the stats so it could be misplaced but at the same time taking two examples isn't going to tell us the overall picture either.

There will be office jobs that pay minimum wage and highly technical, well paying, manual jobs. I just wonder what the aggregate is. I don't think it's bizarre that someone would assume that people who can work from home are more likely to have higher income jobs, even if it's wrong.

I agree blue collar/white collar is a better description than class though. I sort of took class to mean income in this context.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It’s too much of a nuanced subject to apply a sweeping generalisation, as was originally/ flippantly applied.

It’s funny but when was young working from home was the direct opposite of that assumption. Working from home was more associated with licking stamps and stuffing envelopes, or niche craft enterprises.

An amazon warehouse worker can earn as much, potentially more, than a Virgin Media telesales advisor.

So, I take your point, but given who said the original statement I don’t think he was applying a more considered view, such as yourself.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Are they on loan or can they keep them?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yeah it makes sense. Lots of not very well paying jobs you do from home too.

It'll be interesting to see what incomes got paid by the furlough scheme. I am starting to get worried we're now just putting off a huge wave of unemployment whilst newspapers chat comfortably about how nice working from is and we should keep doing it.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Actually I have no idea ... nobody’s been given one yet, it’s all very new. I suspect the computer will come home with a covering letter of some sort so we may find out more then.

Re: Coronavirus
 

My daughter and her partner were working from home for the last 4 years..and still are.They earn enough to pay a mortgage and bring up two children. It is possible especially if you have internet skills.

Re: Coronavirus
 

China the gift that keeps on giving

China bubonic plague: Beijing seals off village as panicked experts confirm black death

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...wn-Suji-Xincun

Re: Coronavirus
 

I didn’t consider the statement particularly controversial.

It, clearly, wasn’t intended to say all middle class people are at home and all working class people are at workplaces. However, as often on the forum, statements get interpreted in absolute terms for the purposes of putting up a straw man to argue back against.

In your own post here you’ve made a generalisation based on observations when you are young. My observations are that the vast, vast majority of my friends, family and colleagues working from home I’d consider middle class.

The vast majority of people I encounter in their workplaces are observably working class. As with my friends and their families that I’m aware of attending workplaces.

It’d be interesting to see the stats.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I think it's time to raise the drawbridge, lock the gates, and fill the moat with high octane (affordable currently).

oh, and a few blokes with sniper rifles roaming the Kent coast wouldn't go amiss either

Re: Coronavirus
 

You two are not volunteering for the new Dad's Army then.:D

Re: Coronavirus
 

Only if I can be Private Frazer ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

:D:D:D

Re: Coronavirus
 

Only if your birthplace is in Scotland though.;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Maybe Hugh will have to take that role, then. ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

aaah but I've been taking online lessons in the fine art of Glaswegian oaths

;) :D

Re: Coronavirus
 

Good idea - Farage has been seen lurking about there...

Re: Coronavirus
 

Working from home class divide.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/economy/...g-home-full-ti

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yet another page full of graphs & statistics that just say what everybody already knew.

A 10 year old can probably give you a quite comprehensive list of jobs people can't do from home ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

It references ABC1 households and C2DE households but does not explain what they are.

So please describe what these are so I can make an assessment.

Re: Coronavirus
 

To be honest there’s plenty of evidence out there and analysis into class that cover these definitions are, I see no further need to add to them in order to assist you in diverting the discussion around my fairly uncontentious point.

If you think class has no meaning or is unimportant you’re entitled to that view. However YouGov and others don’t cling to them in defining this demographic for no reason.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Hope this helps

http://www.nrs.co.uk/nrs-print/lifes.../social-grade/

Re: Coronavirus
 

Not quite everybody. :)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Its only "uncontentious" in your opinion ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

I get that my Teams reference could have been better ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

ABC1 =
Upper Middle Class (A) (Senior Managers e.t.c, Doctors, Lawyers)
Middle Class (B) (Teachers, Developers, Managers)
Lower Middle Class (C1) (Entry versions of the above and/or people who work in offices)

C2DE =
Skilled Working Class (C2) (Plumbers e.t.c)
Working Class (D) (works in a factory, retail, whatever)
Working Class (E) (unemployed)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yeah brilliant, lets put people in little boxes depending on where they work and what their job is, absolute bollox imo.

---------- Post added at 20:25 ---------- Previous post was at 20:20 ----------

I could help you with that, born and bred in the great city of Glasgow....:)

Re: Coronavirus
 

The system was developed in the middle of the 20th century by news and magazine publishers to aid their sales and marketing efforts. It has proven so useful it is now used as the standard approach to market research for just about any product or service.

You might think it’s bollards, but the fact that it is applied commercially by businesses that choose to pay for its use as an aid to selling their products suggests otherwise.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Moi aussi - Sunny Govan... :D

Re: Coronavirus
 

Indeed, it actually works quite well.
In the 1990s I worked for a division of Experian that sold a marketing (targeting) product that (partly) used that information.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

IMO I don’t think there is much of a difference between B and C2, and many cases C2 will earn more than B.

I suppose it’s useful for marketing but as with all things the top and bottom are stark, with a whole cocktail of nuance in between.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

Hazelnut in every bite?

Re: Coronavirus
 

I love hazelnuts!

Re: Coronavirus
 

I love Cadbury's Wholenut :D

Time for this to get back on track.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Job done then

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/13...atment-vaccine

Everybody back to work.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Seems to conflict with this, also on the same site ;

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/13...Sir-David-King

Re: Coronavirus
 

More a case of right hand,left hand I'd say.

Re: Coronavirus
 

They're all 'experts', they all have an opinion, they all read/interpret data differently, they all know what's best for us.


nothing changes ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Much the opinion of Boris' govt when they ignored scientists and applied lockdown weeks too late, causing many extra deaths.
All a matter of opinion or science or politics ? :rolleyes:

Re: Coronavirus
 

When you're given three lots of advice from those who are paid to advise, two will have to be placed behind the advice you go with at the time.

If that advice changes a week or two later, then the fault seems predominately with those giving advice, would you not agree? ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Given the recent news coming out of Georgia in the US regarding infections amongst school children, I'm still unsure as to how in the UK the science is showing little risk of transmission in students


Not saying that getting children back to school isn't important and of course theres variation in how schools are setup/volume of students.

But for the UK to say risk of transmission between children is low seems at odds with the science from the rest of the world.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's a risk I'm willing to take.

We've had BLM protests with thousands congregating together.
We've had hot weather with thousands congregating together.
We've had pubs/Clubs open for weeks with thousands congregating together.

we've seen no discernible rise in infections and no second spike/ wave.

so let's get on with it.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

I thought Preston was locked down recently due to a rise in infections from people congregating together?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...shire-53706436

Re: Coronavirus
 

Absolutely,

you're all expendable for my convenience.

Re: Coronavirus
 

You highlight my point, if we don't understand children's susceptibility (which we appear not to considering the conflicting evidence) then how is the science showing that it's safe for them to return?

I don't believe that a persons weight influences their chances of catching the virus, more so that it potentially increases the severity of the infection.

US schools seem to be faring to a degree better than UK schools in terms of remote teaching. However since I've only spoken to friends and staff in NYC, MSP & SF that's more than likely a disjointed picture.

---------- Post added at 11:39 ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 ----------

[/COLOR]How's your self isolation going? Or, did you get the test (for your wife iirc) ?[COLOR="Silver"]


Thankfully, in reality your significance is much like the rest of us. little to none.

Re: Coronavirus
 

yes and extra restrictions in Yorkshire and Manchester based on naff all.

The Preston example you cite.

The infection rate has "jumped" from 0.022% to a whopping 0.043%

What's missing in this "pandemic" is a little perspective.

Cases have remained below 1000 since 27th June. Which is below 0.0015% of population consistently for over a month.

---------- Post added at 12:02 ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 ----------

No, she was fine after a couple of days just a summer cold, Cough and sore throat...............or was it? we'll never know.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

Absolutely, and long may it continue until we're through this.

My overall point being that there is no reason not to open schools.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

I think I'll leave it for a while Vlad.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Coming back to the schoole side of things....

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...pread-22502202

---------- Post added at 14:06 ---------- Previous post was at 13:59 ----------

Or is there, you may have a point with primary schools, however, secondary schools the path seems to be a bit more unclear

Re: Coronavirus
 

If it is an age issue then it's the teachers who will be at risk..

Re: Coronavirus
 

Not really, you're back to widespread community transmission with large groups at risk.

Re: Coronavirus
 

What? That's rubbish. The likes of Whitty were advocating a later, not an earlier lockdown. He's admitted as much.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Quote your source? Because..


England's chief medical officer Professor Chris Whitty claimed there were 'operational difficulties' that made it difficult to shut the country down in a week.

During a virtual grilling with MPs, Professor Whitty denied there was no 'huge delay' between ministers being advised to implement the draconian measures and actually following through on the actions.

He appeared to contradict his fellow adviser Sir Jeremy Farrar, who told the health select committee moments earlier he 'believed lockdown was enforced too late' and 'should have come earlier', in a sign of a rift between the UK's top experts.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Maybe, maybe not, that article tells you very little and I am always sceptical of unnamed "sources".

We'll see when the report is released. Both my kids are in Primary, so even if there are other mitigations required for Secondary, my two will be in Class come September

Re: Coronavirus
 

Indeed, and because of the lack of adequate systems in place, he advocated a later lockdown. Whitty also said on the BBC that the public acceptance of the lockdown measures would have eroded at precisely the wrong time if lockdown was introduced too early.

Re: Coronavirus
 

We’ve just had the final update email from our high school which reopened for staff on Monday and for pupils starting tomorrow. There’s a phased reintroduction of year groups through the rest of the week. The instructions for getting off the school bus, using the lunch hall, moving through the school and even signing out/being picked up for a medical appointment are extremely thorough. We will just have to see how things go.

Re: Coronavirus
 

So, you've gone from the 'likes of Whitty' to just 'Whitty' when provided with evidence that shows your original post to be wrong.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well, it’s what one of the countries which seems to have minimised the infections/deaths would do...

https://apple.news/AovzFLX2gSYChs4TfbmXW3A

Re: Coronavirus
 

Perhaps those of our forum members who are less critical of Russia will participate in the trials and report back. ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

What exactly was wrong with it?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well imo that’s ridiculous.

But I know nothing, just my opinion.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Thats what media driven paranoia does for you - you would think its the black death the way its going atm.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I doubt very much that we're allowed to call it that anymore ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Or the parents/grandparents they bring the virus home to. The kids themselves will be fine. When mine were at school they'd always bring a September cold back home. They'd be over it in a day or 2, however I'd have it worse and longer.

Not sure what the solution, kids have to get back to school, but there will be an impact on the transmission rate more widely. Pubs and restaurants are unnecessary at the end of the day, breakouts have occurred as a result of reopening . They might have to close again if we want schools open. The eat out for £10 off, plus possible life threatening virus, hasn't drawn me back to them.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It’s not about individual risk - for New Zealand getting it back to zero means businesses open, no distancing, sports stadiums full.

Accepting community transmission means none of these things are long term, realistically viable. The measures you have to introduce to keep it “manageable” are a sizeable part of the way to lockdown and you have no option but to commit to them until there’s a vaccine.

People will say “ah, but tourism”. It’s to that argument what the German cars line is re EU trade. A sizeable irrelevance. Getting the rest of the economy going normally outweighs tourism.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The recession brought on by the Government's imperfect response to the coronavirus pandemic has led to the UK's biggest fall in quarterly GDP on record.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53748278
https://www.cityam.com/uk-gdp-plumme...rly-drop-ever/
https://twitter.com/TheWordOfCarrie/...919809/photo/1

Re: Coronavirus
 

God almighty, talk about lacing a headline with your political slant of choice.

It was going to be a terrible set of results regardless, I don’t think the government response made the figures any worse than they might have been, the real test will be the speed of recovery

---------- Post added at 11:42 ---------- Previous post was at 11:33 ----------

Going into full lockdown when there is less than a handful of cases doesn’t seem particularly viable either

Re: Coronavirus
 

Those are moderate headlines. The FT says "UK economy suffers worst slump in Europe in second quarter"

If the government response did not make the figures any worse than they might have been, why are they then the worst in Europe?

Re: Coronavirus
 

So the only possible explanation is the one that suits your agenda? Can’t say I’m surprised.

You might try reading the articles you’ve linked to. At least one contributing factor is the overall balance of the economy. Four-fifths of our economy is derived from services, which have been hardest hit by lockdown and are hampered by reduced capacity on reopening.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Worst in Europe, least worst.........it’s like comparing turds, when all said and done they’re both turds.

As I say, the real test is how fast and big the recovery will be, how many jobs were saved by furlough, how many saved by opening up hospitality etc.

I’d keep the yard arm Away for the time being. Q2 2021. We’ll know where we are

Re: Coronavirus
 

That's tinkering around the edges. Germany’s GDP fell by 10% in Q2, the UK’s by 20%. Shops and pubs can't explain most of that difference.

Re: Coronavirus
 

There are no options without costs. Rishi is out today attributing our recession to the service sector and social elements of the economy.

New Zealand are looking at it objectively tossing up locking down for 3-6 weeks, getting to zero and getting back to actual normal minus tourism against the alternative of almost permanent restrictions.

Whitty says we are at or near the limit of what we can ease. That's before schools go back. There's no nightclubs, no 60,000 people at football matches, no concerts or events and other huge parts of the economy.

If they get it right the short term pain gives long term gain. I accept that's an if.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Fed up of seeing it reported as 'UK suffers biggest recession ever'

Why do news outlets insist on taking some news, and then dressing it up as the biggest disaster to occur, ever, in the history of the World :rolleyes:

Is it some modern thing that needs to be done to generate sales/viewing/discussion? Is it done as a means of getting one over on others due to having the best sensationalist headline . . that everyone then copies?

It's like bloody advertising, I don't know about you lot, but 99% of the adverts thrown at me - in whatever form - immediately make me vow to steer clear of their products :mad:

Re: Coronavirus
 

That's next on the list from China.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/07/a...scn/index.html

Re: Coronavirus
 

Good luck steering clear of this recession... ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

I think it's best that the media trust us to tell it as it is. I'd rather know the situation so I can plan accordingly than live in a world like North Korea where the news is happy-clappy because they don't trust their citizens with the truth.

I appreciate that everyone has different sensitivities but if the news offends, don't watch or read it. Easier said than done, I know, which reminds me of that famous episode from the likely lads.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's simple fact, the UK economy is much more tied to the service industry than Germany's hence why we performed so poorly.

the figures are also skewed by the fact that a majority of European nations were exiting out of lockdown whilst we were still in lockdown

---------- Post added at 17:44 ---------- Previous post was at 17:42 ----------


Sensationalism sells

Re: Coronavirus
 

People are equating the service sector to being shops, restaurants and bars, which Germany and the UK are both strong in.

Germany has more manufacturing but the larger service sector we have is mainly due to financial and professional services.

That's more likely a reason.

Re: Coronavirus
 

German economy services as a percentage of total 70%
U.K. economy services as a percentage of total 81%

Like I said, it’s a combination of both

Re: Coronavirus
 

And as if by magic, the death toll drops by 5K.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...unted-12047827

Begs the question what the actual toll is.

I saw something recently ( I’ll have to google it to find a link) that stated that of all the hospital deaths up to the end of July, around 25K, that only 1.5K did not have any pre-existing contributing condition.

The more this drags on, the more I’m of the opinion that it’s time to stop being so over cautious.

At risk groups of course, stay safe, but the general healthy population should just be allowed to go about their business.

Re: Coronavirus
 

On the theme of what has been counted as a Covid-19 related death the following article published on 16th July by The Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine which is part of the Nuffield Department of Primary Care Health Sciences at the University of Oxford, and is led by Professor Carl Heneghan as Director.
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/why-no...tical-anomaly/

Re: Coronavirus
 

Can't see me having any problems, live within my means, not ensnared by the latest materialistic fad to be doing the rounds, content with a cheapish smartphone and an aged but very trustworthy car.

I think I'll get by ok, unlike many people I know who are up to their necks keeping up with life in the fast lane ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

They’re good for the GDP bubble. You’re not spending fast enough ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

in a recession, some firms will go out of business, causing workers to lose their jobs - can you guarantee your employer won’t be affected?

Re: Coronavirus
 

:D :D

aah yes, the good old answer to any recession, borrow and spend as much as you can, we'll work the finer details out later ;)


edit: No Hugh, I don't think anyone can guarantee employment, all the more reason not to spend what you don't have IMO

Re: Coronavirus
 

All of Europe ( and most of the world ) will be in recession at some point, it will hit different economies at different times.

Let’s see how the Mediterranean countries dependant on holiday dollars have weathered come November?

Re: Coronavirus
 

I’m quite sure the Med countries don’t exclusively depend on tourism any more than Germany relies solely on car manufacture. Equally, there will be mitigation - internal tourism.

The old days of Northern Europeans spending their strong currencies, with locals desperate to exchange for a million Lira or Pesetas are long gone. The outdated stereotype simply deflects from the fact the British economy is finance and service sectors with the rest of the economy built round it.

With a sizeable proportion working from home the rest of the economy built around this is fatally wounded. Which is why elimination of the virus has and will always be the long term strategy for economic recovery. Everything else is a sticking plaster.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

Of course, but it will still be a major %, I agree “staycations” across the board will help.

But regardless of mitigation and EU support, drop of 60-70% ( typical in all I’ve read) is significant.

That’s just plain wrong. Whether £ to lira, or £ to euro is irrelevant, a tourism/ holiday economy is just that regardless of the currency it is built on.

If the people aren’t there, the people aren’t there..........end of.

As much as a large % of the UK economy is built on finance and services, equally other parts of countries economies are built on tourism and come November we’ll see the impact.

Eliminating the virus is a pipe dream.

The impact of the virus has been over estimated, over measured and over hyped.

Time to get on with life.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I'm curious why they use 28 days.

The average recovery time is supposed to be 2 weeks, and if you test positive then surely you are alreay in this 2 week period ?

(Isnt this why we have a 14 day self isolation period)

Re: Coronavirus
 

I thought it was 'up to' 14 days before any symptoms showed, so probably another 14 added to that after a positive test?

I know of two who tested positive, had no symptoms, and returned to work after 14 days.

The figures baffle me too :shrug:

Re: Coronavirus
 

Just as people aren’t in football stadiums or theatres. Your post implies these countries rely upon money coming into their country from outside and that their internal economies are fatally flawed without it.

This is simply not the case.

Countries won’t advocate this because we know what happens - Italy in February, Spain and UK in March. To bury heads in the sand and wish away the virus isn’t viable.

We are at or near the limit of our lockdown easement strategy.

Even if the country eased all restrictions people simply wouldn’t behave as they did before. It’s neither a good strategy in health or economic terms.

---------- Post added at 07:37 ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 ----------

Needs to be everywhere otherwise countries will keep re-exporting and re-importing it.

But in economic terms any strategies need to be joined up. Some countries could try to exploit the position for short term economic gain jeopardising efforts across the board.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Didn’t say “rely”, said large %. Football has TV/ sponsorship revenue. Stadium revenue ( for PL at least) has long been superfluous to income. It is not known how the how or if the smaller non-league clubs Will fair. Likewise small independent cinemas and theatre are still an unknown. It’s a poor comparison anyway.

To deny that restaurants, Bars, scooter hire that are experiencing a 60-70% drop in footfall won’t be affected is blinkered to say the least.

They may survive, but the comment was based around economic impact and recovery.

It will have an economic impact, and we’ll find out how big it was come November- ish.

It’s not February or March though. It’s August.

We’ll see, as cases continue to stay in the 0.0X % zone, people will more and more question restrictions.

Schools going back is the next big one, if they go back without a jump in infections.