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-   -   P&O Ferries make 800 British Workers Redundant (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33710898)

Chris 19-03-2022 14:30
Re: P&O Ferries disgracefully make 800 British Workers Redundant
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36116997)
And many of them were shoreside workers? IE resident in Ireland or France.
So what are these valid, workable alternatives?
The irony is, P&O has shut down discussion of alternative ways of saving money by illegally circumventing the usual process of notifying large scale redundancies well in advance and then running a consultation. While the applicable laws are those of Jersey, we have come to understand that in this area they are comparable to the UK. Notification and consultation should have happened. This isn’t the 1970s and the trade union could have been expected to engage constructively with the issues at hand. Workable alternatives could then have emerged through detailed examination of the company’s predicament over the next several months.

(Edit)

Further to the above, there’s some suggestion that UK law applies here because the workers work ‘from’ the UK. That appears to over-ride foreign contracts or ownership of the business.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60792039

Mick 21-03-2022 11:36
Re: P&O Ferries disgracefully make 800 British Workers Redundant
 
BREAKING: From ITV News Joel Hill:

Quote:
The @RMTunion says P&O plans to restart its ferry service in Dover using agency crew from India + will pay them the equivalent of $2.38 (£1.80) an hour.

RMT doesn’t offer proof but this is plausible and - while some may find this shocking - it would be legal. I’ll explain…

P&O trades internationally and its ships aren’t registered in UK so it is not subject to UK employment law and requirement to pay the UK minimum wage.

P&O does have to comply with rates of pay set out by International Transport Federation/International Labour Organisation

The ITF/ILO minimum recommended rate for an Ordinary Seaman (OS) - usually the lowest rank on a ship - is $15.9/day - or $1.99/hour for an 8 hour shift.

P&O reportedly wants to cut its wage bill in half.

Offering agency crew from India £1.80/hour (well below UK min wage of £8.91/hour) would be legal and, I’m told, competitive.

Other ferry operators also use non-UK crews - from countries like Poland and the Philippines.

Carth 21-03-2022 12:11
Re: P&O Ferries disgracefully make 800 British Workers Redundant
 
So it boils down to:

The company isn't British
The ships aren't British
The crew aren't (now) British


I guess it's similar to large companies closing call centers in Manchester and Glasgow then opening call centers in Mumbai and Delhi :shrug:

Not very nice, but what can you do in this age of globalization

Pierre 21-03-2022 12:12
Re: P&O Ferries disgracefully make 800 British Workers Redundant
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36117158)
BREAKING: From ITV News Joel Hill:
This is possible because the UK has no Cabotage rules, it is possible to prevent this from happening if they change this.

I doubt something similar could happen in the US or other countries that have Cabotage rules

1andrew1 21-03-2022 12:24
Re: P&O Ferries disgracefully make 800 British Workers Redundant
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36117159)
So it boils down to:

The company isn't British
The ships aren't British
The crew aren't (now) British

I guess it's similar to large companies closing call centers in Manchester and Glasgow then opening call centers in Mumbai and Delhi :shrug:

Not very nice, but what can you do in this age of globalization
It didn't happen to P&O's Irish, Dutch and French crews so presumably it can be prevented if the Government enacted similar legislation to those countries.

Halcyon 21-03-2022 12:56
Re: P&O Ferries disgracefully make 800 British Workers Redundant
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36117159)
So it boils down to:

The company isn't British
The ships aren't British
The crew aren't (now) British


I guess it's similar to large companies closing call centers in Manchester and Glasgow then opening call centers in Mumbai and Delhi :shrug:

Not very nice, but what can you do in this age of globalization



Soon there will be nothing left that is British.

nffc 21-03-2022 13:22
Re: P&O Ferries disgracefully make 800 British Workers Redundant
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36117160)
This is possible because the UK has no Cabotage rules, it is possible to prevent this from happening if they change this.

I doubt something similar could happen in the US or other countries that have Cabotage rules
Sounds to me like - in that respect - they may be taking somewhat advantage of the government allowing an exception for foreign truckers to transport in the UK to cover the shortfall in domestic workers being available.


Considering the alternative would have meant we didn't have anything to transport goods, that is obviously something they had to do.


But at the same time, doing this would allow other companies to use foreign workers to do similar transports.


It's an utter disgrace for P&O to do this and then rehire the British jobs using presumably foreign agency workers, based out of the UK, but it does appear if they aren't replacing directly, say they were using Indian workers instead of UK ones, then it seems to be possible these can be classed as genuine redundancies. Guess as their operation is global, unless there's some kind of licence consideration with sailing or docking on UK waters, then their staff could come from anywhere in the world.


I guess the situation is different if they are rehiring from a UK agency as that's closer to the roles they originally had but it is definite cost cutting exercise due to pandemic travel restrictions...

Sephiroth 22-03-2022 13:34
Re: P&O Ferries disgracefully make 800 British Workers Redundant
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36117161)
It didn't happen to P&O's Irish, Dutch and French crews so presumably it can be prevented if the Government enacted similar legislation to those countries.
Are you sure, Andrew? Didn't P&O Ferries fire ALL their ferry staff?

https://news.sky.com/story/p-o-ferri...kings-12568494

Quote:
t was later confirmed that all 800 crew, including officers, had been laid off with immediate effect via a video message while agency workers were in position to take over the running of ships.

Hugh 22-03-2022 14:28
Re: P&O Ferries disgracefully make 800 British Workers Redundant
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36117260)
Are you sure, Andrew? Didn't P&O Ferries fire ALL their ferry staff?

https://news.sky.com/story/p-o-ferri...kings-12568494
https://www.thelocal.fr/20220318/why...rench-workers/

Quote:
Cross-Channel ferry company P&O made a shocking announcement on Thursday - 800 of its UK staff have been dismissed with immediate effect. But the company's French employees are apparently not affected.

Sephiroth 22-03-2022 15:28
Re: P&O Ferries disgracefully make 800 British Workers Redundant
 
In which case, if these British workers were hired under Jersey Law, would not any enacted British laws have no effect?

1andrew1 22-03-2022 19:29
Re: P&O Ferries disgracefully make 800 British Workers Redundant
 
In 2005, Irish Ferries replaced its workers with Eastern European agency labour that was considerably cheaper. This template has now been used by competitor P&O.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...0/transport.uk

1andrew1 22-03-2022 23:33
Re: P&O Ferries disgracefully make 800 British Workers Redundant
 
Another twist in the tale.
Quote:
Change in law signed off by Chris Grayling meant P&O didn't need to tell govt, maritime lawyer says

While senior government officials have claimed that the sacking of 800 workers by P&O Ferries was illegal, a specialist in maritime law argues that is incorrect.

But Kevin Barnett, head of employment at marine law specialists Lester Aldridge LLP, told Sky News that Mr Grayling's amendment removed the need to notify the government.

"The amendment states the notification must be made to the competent authority of the state where the ship is registered, instead of the secretary of state," he said.

He said Mr Kwarteng's insistence that he should have been notified of the sackings in advance is "incorrect."

A letter to Mr Kwarteng from P&O's chief executive Peter Hebblethwaite written after the sackings says: "The very clear statutory obligation in the particular circumstances that applied was for each company to notify the competent authority of the state where the vessel is registered.

"All relevant vessels are registered outside the UK. Notification was made to the relevant authorities on March 17."...

The change signed off by Mr Grayling states: "[If] the employees concerned are members of the crew of a seagoing vessel which is registered at a port outside Great Britain .. the employer shall give the notification required .. to the competent authority of the state where the vessel is registered (instead of to the Secretary of State)."

The amendment is the only change to the 1992 act relating specifically to foreign-registered ships.

According to an explanatory memorandum published by the Department for Transport, the amendment, part of a package called the Seafarers Directive, was supposed to improve seafarers' employment rights.

"The purpose [is to] address an anomaly where land-based workers may enjoy greater employment rights than those at sea," it said.

The memorandum claimed the amendment had been supported by the unions who have led protests against P&O's actions...
The memorandum states no formal consultation was carried out before the change was made, and no impact assessment was carried out.
https://news.sky.com/story/p-o-ferri...-says-12572920

Paul 23-03-2022 00:22
Re: P&O Ferries disgracefully make 800 British Workers Redundant
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60840467

Quote:
P&O Ferries has denied suggestions that it broke the law when it sacked 800 workers without warning last week.

Ministers had questioned whether the move was legal under British law - but in a letter, the firm said those affected were employed outside the UK.

It also said staff would benefit from a £36.5m redundancy pot - with around 40 getting more than £100,000 each.
Even if the "pot" were divided equally between all 800, thats over £45,000 each.

nashville 23-03-2022 13:38
Re: P&O Ferries disgracefully make 800 British Workers Redundant
 
This must be against the law , sacking people without notice

Hugh 24-03-2022 13:30
Re: P&O Ferries disgracefully make 800 British Workers Redundant
 
BBC News - P&O Ferries: Not consulting on job cuts broke law, boss admits

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60862933


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