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Sephiroth 22-04-2021 12:42
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36077644)
Yup. I'm now satisfied that this isn't an interesting, general discussion about how culture arises and changes over time, but is more likely a space for making racist assertions under pseudo-academic cover.
You're being ridiculous. My very first post clearly stated:

Quote:
My main motive for starting this thread is to discuss the proposition that our culture will be submerged by others over time

Chris 22-04-2021 12:51
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077647)
You're being ridiculous. My very first post clearly stated:
And you genuinely don't see the difficulty in your use of loaded terms like 'submerged', or in your subsequent, crass generalisations like 'the Jews' 'the Muslims' or, even, 'the Iranians'.

Hence my point.

Sephiroth 22-04-2021 13:04
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36077648)
And you genuinely don't see the difficulty in your use of loaded terms like 'submerged', or in your subsequent, crass generalisations like 'the Jews' 'the Muslims' or, even, 'the Iranians'.

Hence my point.
Who else thinks that my capsule characterisations were crass?

Hugh 22-04-2021 13:12
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077650)
Who else thinks that my capsule characterisations were crass?
Not a surprise to you, but...

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2021/04/1.gif

Using loaded statements like
Quote:
diversity and whether or not that dilutes our culture
Quote:
our culture is under threat from other cultures
Quote:
brainwashing (see woke-ism for details)
Quote:
Only the wokest of woke can find anything wrong with that
Quote:
If other cultures don't share the same values and goals and beliefs of British society, we will run into trouble when/if their numbers grow to a critical mass
Quote:
look at other cultures, whose behaviours, pronouncements etc differ from ours, and reach a conclusion as to whether or not our culture is under threat.
Quote:
I believe that British culture is under threat in so far as if the birth rate of an incompatible culture reaches a critical mass
make it pretty clear where you're coming from/going to...

Russ 22-04-2021 13:42
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36077633)
In the English language it is not subjective it has the 2 Noun definitions I outlined and a 3rd which is Verb and is where you maintain tissue or cells in a medium suitable for growth
It absolutely is subjective. What I consider to be culture you may call a national embarrassment.

Neither of us would be right or wrong.

Sephiroth 22-04-2021 13:45
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077651)
Not a surprise to you, but...

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2021/04/1.gif

Using loaded statements like

make it pretty clear where you're coming from/going to...
You're criticising me for asserting that British culture is under threat.

Why don't you come off your high horse and explain whether or not you think British culture is under threat and why?

jonbxx 22-04-2021 14:00
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077653)
You're criticising me for asserting that British culture is under threat.

Why don't you come off your high horse and explain whether or not you think British culture is under threat and why?
It's my lunch break so why not. You said that;

Quote:
I believe that British culture is under threat in so far as if the birth rate of an incompatible culture reaches a critical mass, laws will change as that culture asserts itself.
and then posted data on UK Muslim demographics.

If British culture is driven by British people, then British Muslims are also drivers of British culture surely?

Now, the status quo of British culture may well change with changing demographics but it is still British culture isn't it, unless you are saying that being a Muslim is not compatible with being British.

Sephiroth 22-04-2021 16:03
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36077655)
It's my lunch break so why not. You said that;

and then posted data on UK Muslim demographics.

If British culture is driven by British people, then British Muslims are also drivers of British culture surely?

Now, the status quo of British culture may well change with changing demographics but it is still British culture isn't it, unless you are saying that being a Muslim is not compatible with being British.
It is a tricky subject where we have to tread carefully.
Chris has already suggested that I have made racist assertions; that was quick and of course, he is completely wrong.

Let's look at what you've said logically. You've taken my point about the evolution of British culture to include the effect of non-British culture exercised by people of an obviously different culture but who are also British by reason of laws and rights.

And here we probably part company. Citizenship is one thing, but a competing or incompatible culture is another.

Cast forward to a date in the future when the Muslim population reaches sufficient numbers to have a majority in Parliament. In your reasoning, British culture will have evolved so that Shariah law, for example, would be at the forefront.

There is a government report into Sharia Law. Obviously Sharia Councils serve a required function under Islam; decisions can be enforced by an application made to the English courts who ensure that the decisions are not incompatible with English law. It is of interest to me that the BETH DIN (Jewish) and ROMAN CATHOLIC COUNCIL are not subject to such safeguards. Hence my regular reference to Judeo-Christian input to British culture.

Am I being racist or am I examining the question rather more fully than the likes of Hugh or Chris can appreciate?

jonbxx 22-04-2021 18:00
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077664)
It is a tricky subject where we have to tread carefully.
Chris has already suggested that I have made racist assertions; that was quick and of course, he is completely wrong.

Let's look at what you've said logically. You've taken my point about the evolution of British culture to include the effect of non-British culture exercised by people of an obviously different culture but who are also British by reason of laws and rights.

And here we probably part company. Citizenship is one thing, but a competing or incompatible culture is another.

Cast forward to a date in the future when the Muslim population reaches sufficient numbers to have a majority in Parliament. In your reasoning, British culture will have evolved so that Shariah law, for example, would be at the forefront.

There is a government report into Sharia Law. Obviously Sharia Councils serve a required function under Islam; decisions can be enforced by an application made to the English courts who ensure that the decisions are not incompatible with English law. It is of interest to me that the BETH DIN (Jewish) and ROMAN CATHOLIC COUNCIL are not subject to such safeguards. Hence my regular reference to Judeo-Christian input to British culture.

Am I being racist or am I examining the question rather more fully than the likes of Hugh or Chris can appreciate?
I think it is a healthy discussion to have but I got the feeling along with Hugh and Chris that you were stating that Islam is not compatible with British culture which becomes an issue when you have British Muslims. This could give the impression that Muslims are 'less British' and there lies a slippery slope. If there are different classes of British citizens, I think we have a problem.

Taking you example of there being a point in the future where there is a Muslim majority voting for the Muslim Party, is that not democracy? Say, hypothetically, that 52% of the population voted to invoke Shariah law, is it right or wrong to go with this?

I agree on your point BTW on the Shariah courts, an equal level of scrutiny should be applied to all extra judicial court systems such as Beth Din

Russ 22-04-2021 18:18
Re: British culture
 
Extreme Islam isn't compatible with British values but then again extreme anything wouldn't be either.

Sephiroth 22-04-2021 18:29
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36077674)
I think it is a healthy discussion to have but I got the feeling along with Hugh and Chris that you were stating that Islam is not compatible with British culture which becomes an issue when you have British Muslims. This could give the impression that Muslims are 'less British' and there lies a slippery slope. If there are different classes of British citizens, I think we have a problem.

Taking you example of there being a point in the future where there is a Muslim majority voting for the Muslim Party, is that not democracy? Say, hypothetically, that 52% of the population voted to invoke Shariah law, is it right or wrong to go with this?

I agree on your point BTW on the Shariah courts, an equal level of scrutiny should be applied to all extra judicial court systems such as Beth Din
Quote:
Taking you example of there being a point in the future where there is a Muslim majority voting for the Muslim Party, is that not democracy? Say, hypothetically, that 52% of the population voted to invoke Shariah law, is it right or wrong to go with this?
I come from the position that democracy is used by the causes of those that will abolish democracy. See Hitler and Mugabe for obvious details and various rigged elections elsewhere.. There is no guarantee that it won't happen again and I can only see one loosely democratic Muslim country. My fears are not irrational, albeit if the materialise it's well into the future.

Quote:
I think it is a healthy discussion to have but I got the feeling along with Hugh and Chris that you were stating that Islam is not compatible with British culture which becomes an issue when you have British Muslims. This could give the impression that Muslims are 'less British' and there lies a slippery slope. If there are different classes of British citizens, I think we have a problem.
There is no different class of British citizen in my mind. Citizenship and culture are very different things. At the moment, British culture dominates and, naturally, it unquestionably tolerates other cultures. It's just that I feel that a particular culture, when in power, is unlikely to tolerate minority cultures.

Hugh 22-04-2021 21:11
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077680)
I come from the position that democracy is used by the causes of those that will abolish democracy. See Hitler and Mugabe for obvious details and various rigged elections elsewhere.. There is no guarantee that it won't happen again and I can only see one loosely democratic Muslim country. My fears are not irrational, albeit if the materialise it's well into the future.



There is no different class of British citizen in my mind. Citizenship and culture are very different things. At the moment, British culture dominates and, naturally, it unquestionably tolerates other cultures. It's just that I feel that a particular culture, when in power, is unlikely to tolerate minority cultures.
You appear, in support of your argument that a minority may have too much power in the future in the U.K., use as examples two dictators who, in order to gain power, used the proposition that minorities had too much power in their countries - did you really mean to do this?

Maggy 22-04-2021 21:36
Re: British culture
 
Don’t type culture into Google. Mind numbing.

Sephiroth 22-04-2021 21:50
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077693)
You appear, in support of your argument that a minority may have too much power in the future in the U.K., use as examples two dictators who, in order to gain power, used the proposition that minorities had too much power in their countries - did you really mean to do this?
No. There is no way that what I wrote could reasonably be portrayed in that light.

Hitler and Mugabe are different cases. Hitler was as you said; Mugabe was elected in an independence led vote; quite different but nevertheless one-man-one-vote-one-time, as Smitty put it.

My fear is different again. I subscribe to the thinking behind this article in the Irish Times.

Quote:
Saudi Arabia is likely to be angered by the findings since its dispute with Qatar has largely been based on the accusation that its Gulf rival is both the primary funder of terrorism overseas and harbours terrorists that support the Muslim Brotherhood or Hamas.

The report claims: “Saudi Arabia has, since the 1960s, sponsored a multimillion dollar effort to export Wahhabi Islam across the Islamic world, including to Muslim communities in the west.

“In the UK, this funding has primarily taken the form of endowments to mosques and Islamic educational institutions, which have in turn played host to extremist preachers and the distribution of extremist literature.

“Influence has also been exerted through the training of British Muslim religious leaders in Saudi Arabia, as well as the use of Saudi textbooks in a number of the UK’s independent Islamic schools.”

It adds: “A number of Britain’s most serious Islamist hate preachers sit within the Salafi-Wahhabi ideology and are linked to extremism sponsored from overseas, either by having studied in Saudi Arabia as part of scholarship programmes, or by having been provided with extreme literature and material within the UK itself.”
What do you think would happen to democracy when this long term plan comes to fruition in the UK by democratic means? Well?

Hugh 22-04-2021 22:16
Re: British culture
 
Well, I would not be worried by the fact that
Quote:
Britain’s Salafi Mosques had a collective capacity for a 44,994-strong membership
out of the 3.3 million Muslims in the U.K. (1.36%).

(and it’s not 44,994 membership, it’s that they have the capacity to have 44,994 members).

btw, from the source material for your link

Quote:
About The Centre for the Response to Radicalisation and Terrorism (CRT)

The Centre for the Response to Radicalisation and Terrorism (CRT) is unique in addressing violent and non* violent extremism. By coupling high-quality, in-depth research with targeted and impactful policy recommendations, we aim to combat the threat of Islamism in our society.
Apparently, the only terrorists they are interested in countering are the Islamic ones...

The Henry Jackson Society is "the leading exponent of neoconservatism in the UK today grounded in a transatlantic tradition deeply influenced by Islamophobia and an open embrace of the ‘War on Terror’."

https://researchportal.bath.ac.uk/en...ritish-neocons

They have form in "over-egging the pudding"...

Quote:
The Henry Jackson Society (HJS) has settled the High Court defamation claim brought by Huda Television Ltd (Huda), an educational television channel aimed at the UK Muslim community. In addition to paying libel damages to Huda plus legal costs, HJS has published a retraction of the allegations and an apology to Huda on the HJS website (where it will remain) and on Twitter.

Huda brought libel proceedings after HJS published a report titled “Extremism on the Airwaves: Islamist broadcasting in the UK”, with accompanying news release and Twitter promotion, on 21 November 2018. HJS, which describes itself as “a think tank that produces expert research on the threats to our security”, said that its report “explores how Islamist extremists use our broadcast networks to further their radical agenda.” Huda’s Claim contended that HJS had called for it to face more regulatory intervention based on false allegations about it hosting Islamist extremist content.

Following a consent order, the statement issued by HJS explains that HJS had alleged that Huda’s “channel regularly publishes content containing Islamist extremist subject matter” but that HJS accepted that “This was incorrect” and “No such content appears on Hua’s website”.

HJS also admitted that it was “wrong” to claim that Huda “almost ubiquitously host well-known extremist speakers” and that its claim that nine allegedly extremist speakers had appeared on the channel “was incorrect in relation to the majority of the speakers identified” who had not appeared on Huda at all.
https://www.doughtystreet.co.uk/news...v-station-huda


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