Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Ms Cooper especially. She gets it at the breakfast table. ;)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Definitions are important. Just because it may be difficult to find a single point where a extreme form of socialism becomes communism doesn't mean they're not different. The world isn't that black and white and that isn't a left-wing trick to make things difficult, it's just how the world works. Things are complicated.

People were saying people on the left love to control and that the left were responsible for the deaths of 100 million people. Left = socialism = communism = Stalin seems to be the formula that people are trying to advocate. If you're on the left these are the things that you do or the consequences of what you believe.

That is nasty and it is wrong. It's a sick way to characterise people who disagree with you.

The "left wing leaning members" are trying to point that socialism does not mean communism and doesn't have to led to communism. That there are many examples of countries with socialist tendencies that have not succumbed to communism. Also that totalitarianism/fascism is not just the end of the left wing scale but can exist irrespective of the political learnings of the oppressive administration. It's a form of Government control that can be exercised often by people with extremest political views.

In the end those the discussion of the extremes is pointless because no one is really advocating communism here. We're talking about control and as I pointed out towards the start, this government has been just as authoritarian as the last so the notion that it's a Labour trend is simply wrong.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

'Gets it??!!!' :shocked::shocked::shocked: :D

I reckon they deserve eachother tbh.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Yes, in many ways she is full of Balls.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Of course that's not always the case. I completely agree with you there.
However, one should be on guard against communism sneaking in using the thin end of the wedge, so to speak.
A quick google throws out some interesting biographical details about many labour members:
http://pol-check.blogspot.co.uk/2009...ew-labour.html
.......they were (?still are) as red as could be......now one could argue that they were younger then and saw the eror of their ways and turned away from communism/marxism etc., or one could say that, just possibly, they recognised that they wouldn't get to positions of power without 'toning down' their stated ideologies......so they defaulted to socialism. Who knows where their true loyalties still lie?

edit.......
I wonder if a similar quick trawl of conservative mp's backgrounds would produce a similar level of extreme right wing affiliations & memberships in their pasts......I suspect not.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Yes,and they want these things cause they've actually moved to left when it comes to privacy and individual rights.The Tories feel they must be more like Labour to win elections,something they now pay a high price for.


Like I said,the Tories unfortunately are moving more towards the left by entertaining such policies....
You really do have to show me though where I said that people who vote for the left are Commie-Nazis.We were discussing Socialism and and I gave examples of what it can lead to and next you know I've said Labour supporters or Lefties support Genocide,which of course I never did,but nice smear anyway.


There's no need to read off some website... I've heard of Alex Jones but I'm not sure what it is he does or doesn't do. I can't even be bothered to look it up.

My understanding of freedom comes from having had a German step-dad and seeing his Dad,who fought in WW 2, being a complete wreck of a human being and his wife,sons and daughters trying to deal the fallout of that and the misery it has caused in his family.
We had family friends in East Germany whom we visited 3 or 4 times who were one of a very,very few select people who were actually allowed to have their own enterprise,a launderette. I saw the deprivation,how miserable many people were and all the restrictions the state laid upon them with no good reason other than ideology.... the wonders of socialism. I suggest you go visit a socialist state,it'll be an eye-opener.

Oh,and before you come up with the Scandinavian countries again,I'll share something with you.
I've lived in Norway and Germany for a good while,and these countries are quite social,especially Norway.... at least if you look at it from the outside. The difference to Britain is that although the programs are generous their work ethic is almost second-to-none. Being on the dole for no reason is almost despised and the ethic is to work very hard and provide yourself for what you want,and not rely on the state to hand it to you. That is why they can afford such generous state handouts. Their model works because they have a different mentality,and a bit of Oil doesn't hurt either.


funny you should say that,because what we have in America and most of the West isn't really Capitalism but Corporatism. I've said before I'm against handouts to companies as well,and to people only when really in need.
I think all of us could do a lot more to help ourselves and those around us.

---------- Post added at 16:23 ---------- Previous post was at 16:05 ----------

Yep,things are complicated.


Left-leaning,socialist and communist states control more than those with capitalist,Liberal values,FACT.
Also,we would agree that Communism is a form of left-wing ideology,correct? So yes,part of the left are responsible for over 100 million dead.
No,what's nasty,sick and wrong is to see members on this forum playing down the victim's of left-wing policies,of which there are plenty.
No,what the left-wing members are doing is trying to defend the indefensible.
The left love control,always have and always will... sad to see how quickly people forget about Labour's past deeds.

---------- Post added at 16:27 ---------- Previous post was at 16:23 ----------

That's exactly what it is...

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

So basically even if a party that is right of centre and they advocate authoritarian policies then they are also left wing. So I can't really ever show an example of a right-wing administration enacting illiberal policies because they'll also be examples of a right-wing government that has moved left. You have again simply tried, wrongly, to equate authoritarian with the left alone. I cannot ever refute that because examples I give of authoritarian regimes on the right will be dismissed as socialism.

Socialist policies tend to concern themselves with the provision of services for citizens at the expense of higher tax. That's quite simplistic but it's generally the case. I haven't seen many socialists who advocate for a police state. Indeed the more liberal organisations in this country are opposed to these measures. Usually they're called 'liberal do-gooders'. It's new to me that liberals are the ones who call for DNA and Internet databases, increased CCTV and secret courts.

Let's look at two examples. David Davies, a Conservative, and George Galloway a far-left liberal. These two agree on almost nothing but what does unite them is opposition to measures such as the Internet Database and ID Cards. This is because whilst their at opposite ends of the traditional left/right spectrum they're at similar ends of the libertarian/authoritarian spectrum.

You can be on the left and a libertarian and be on the right and authoritarian and vise-versa. Authoritarianism is not a result of socialism.

I didn't name you. I said people. It was Ramrod who said the left were responsible for the deaths of 100 million people.


America is interesting too. They've detained people without trial for years, they've tortured people, they've had wire-taps without warrants, they've reserved the right to kill people abroad. Are they now left-wing too?

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Given your international perspective then, I'm sure that you will also agree that Labour (in essentially a 2 party state) is not necessarily the best or a representative example of left wing politics.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Which victims of which policies?

I want to know which policies exactly are responsible for the murder of 100 million people.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Read the book (the black book of communism), it lists which communist/marxist/maoist 'governments' were responsible for what deaths (and where/when)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Germany is currently home to around 249,000 migrants from Bulgaria and Romania
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-for-that.html

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

:tu:

What you mean it's not only xenophobic, bigoted, Daily Heil reading, little Englanders who're worried about this???!!!! :shocked::shocked::shocked::shocked: :rolleyes:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

They will be here soon thanks to the EU, then they will get the full package, free house, full benefits, child benefits that are sent back to there home country, access to our health care.

And coming soon to a cash point near you free cash machine withdraws via there handy cam and pin logging system.

But hey the supporters of the EU don't mind all that :rolleyes:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Couldn't happen to a nicer country :tu:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

.... and of course any suggestion whatsoever that certain crimes may be prevalent in certain communities is a sure sign of rabid xenophobia... :rolleyes: