Cable Forum - [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017

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Damien

23-01-2013 09:46

Re: Cameron promises a "real choice" on Europe

Quote:

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35526350)

The whole speech is littered with "ifs":

If he's still the leader, if the Tories win the next election outright, if he can get any significant powers back from the EU and if he doesn't what then? No referendom you can be sure.

You have to take the speech apart bit by bit and check any interpretation that can be applied. It's the same for any politician you'll never gat a cast iron garantee you could trust.

I'll not believe we have a choice on the EU until I'm in that booth with a piece of paper with an unequivical yes / no choice that cannot be welched upon.

Well it's unlikely he will be replaced by a more pro-European Conservative and, as much as the backbenches may moan, he isn't likely to be replaced before the next election anyway. The biggest if is if they win the next election but if a lot of the work is already done then Labour would need to ditch it (as opposed to simply not doing anything) and that may prove difficult.

He is called the referendum regardless of the result of any changes. He hasn't made clear what he would advocate for in the event no concessions are made but I suspect it would still be to stay in. However I think Europe will throw a few minor concessions in but that it will fall short of what Cameron wants - he'll present it as a win anyway.

It's hard to imagine that a referendum won't happen now. I think the pro-EU side will win it however.

tizmeinnit

23-01-2013 09:48

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017

Isn't 2018 to late? did we not sign something that stated all EU members must be part of the Euro in 2017? has this been mentioned already or an I mistaken?

Chris

23-01-2013 10:03

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit (Post 35526360)

Isn't 2018 to late? did we not sign something that stated all EU members must be part of the Euro in 2017? has this been mentioned already or an I mistaken?

The UK has a permanent opt-out from the Euro. There are other measures due to become permanent over the next couple of years, that is definitely ringing a bell, but I can't remember what they are.

In any case, it wouldn't matter - Cameron is talking about changing the treaties that form and govern the EU. There is nothing done that cannot be undone by a new treaty. The trick is whether he will get a new treaty, and whether it will contain what we want.

tizmeinnit

23-01-2013 10:09

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35526364)

There is stuff in the Lisbon Treaty that comes into effect between 2014 /17 but there is to much to read lol

Damien

23-01-2013 10:19

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017

What would everyone want to keep from the EU if we had our way?

The main two I can currently think of are:

Freedom of movement/right to work
The single market

Obviously we would still be in the ECHR

tizmeinnit

23-01-2013 10:21

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017

that top one I am afraid is one of the top things those who want out of the EU want rid of

Derek

23-01-2013 10:28

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017

The single market and thats it.

Removal of the ECHR as a final port of call for appeals would also be high up on my list of demands. We already have a Supreme Court here, having the Supreme Court being not very supreme after all and having very important decisions made by judges with limited or no legal experience in the UK doesn't sit well with me.

Overall it was an OK speech but a bit of a cop out. It leaves plenty of wiggle room for Cameron not to hold a referendum if he doesn't get his way on compromise and kicks the whole in/out referendum down the line for another session and a half of parliament.

Damien

23-01-2013 10:30

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017

I think the right to work is largely a good thing. First of all the main large influx was from Poland and they integrated well, worked and contributed to the economy. Maybe ensuring next time a new member state is phased in more slowly might be an idea. Before that we have benefited a lot from French, German, Spanish, Dutch, Italian and more people coming over here too.

Then of course you have all the British people that moved to France/Spain who take advantage of that policy too - even the ones that moan about the EU and immigrants without a sense of irony on the Daily Mail website. :D

---------- Post added at 10:30 ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek (Post 35526378)

Removal of the ECHR as a final port of call for appeals would also be high up on my list of demands. We already have a Supreme Court here, having the Supreme Court being not very supreme after all and having very important decisions made by judges with limited or no legal experience in the UK doesn't sit well with me.

ECHR is a different body and I don't think the Government is suggesting we remove ourselves from that. I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed when they find out that the human rights part would remain.

Derek

23-01-2013 10:30

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35526379)

I think the right to work is largely a good thing. First of all the main large influx was from Poland and they integrated well, worked and contributed to the economy.

Especially if you are in employed in accident repair and ambulance driving. They have a more 'relaxed' view on drink driving than most. :erm:

Gary L

23-01-2013 10:39

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017

The liar told us he would have a referendum if we voted him in last time. we voted him in and he didn't keep his promise.

he's just lying to us all again because he wants to get back in for another long 4 years.
don't listen to the muppet. he's a liar. he says what you want to hear to get what he wants.

he actually promised a lot of things. I can't think of one he kept to his word on.

and have you noticed how he says "The British People" as if he gives a fig all of a sudden what we think or want?

the muppet.

Arthurgray50@blu

23-01-2013 11:08

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017

Why is it now that he wants to take it to the British people to vote for it, He won't be in power then and his puppet Clegg will be out of a job.

Since he has been in power, he had made promise after promise, that hasn't been met, ie On Sky news he stated that 80% of the promises he made hasn't been met.

Clegg is on the verge of being ousted from the Li Dems, its about time people realised that what comes out of Cameron's mouth l would not believe one bit, its just a vote puller, that he wont win - at the next election he will be out.

Gary L

23-01-2013 11:10

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017

The thing I've realised about all this is that the Liberal Democratic Party is an extinct political party now.
I think Clegg even realises this.

tizmeinnit

23-01-2013 11:11

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35526379)

I get to use the job figures again. There are 5 people unemployed to every one job available . It the automatic right to work was removed this figure would be so much better for UK nationals

Damien

23-01-2013 11:13

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017

Quote:

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35526399)

That's always the argument that they've (immigrants) contributed to a growth in the economy which is true in the broad GDP sense. The downside is rarely mentioned in that the cheap labour has depressed pay rates especially for the self employed like brickies down to the absolute minimum. That same depression of rates has made it more attractive for our own unemployed to sit at home on benefits whilst of the 2.1 million new jobs created under the last administration, 2 million went to immigrants.

Had employers had to source those jobs from the indigineous population there'd be better wages and training. Whilst they can get immigrants for "free" there's no incentive to invest in our own people. The CBI just love it though.

True but I think we should try to combat such low wages being offered. I mean why wasn't minimum wage applied in this cases or is it too low? It would solve that problem and maybe reduce too much immigration from unskilled workers.

Quote:

Make no mistake, unless we went for only free trade agreements, all the rest of the EU baggage would be sneaked in by the backdoor or by majority votes over the next few years and we'd be right back to square one but with no choice as "You've already had a chance to vote"

Even if we had only the single market we would still be subject to EU regulations. The only other two countries which can be in the market without wider EU membership still take directives from the EU.

Quote:

EHCR is a different issue as it's not part of EU membership and we'd be still subject to it even if we completely untied ourselves from the EU. It's a pity that a noble act as enacting the HRA, designed to prevent the Holocaust from happening again, has become so debased that it is used to protect criminals from deportation or give lags softer beds. :rolleyes:

These are the wider extremes of the ECHR but it's still a good thing despite the times it makes the news for silly things.

Maggy

23-01-2013 11:26

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017

A vote winner I guess.
Personally I'm not going to vote for someone who pulls this trick.Referendum NOW please.:rolleyes:

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