Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Not everybody in the police would be up to the task of handling a fire arm.

Police should not be armed unilaterily.

I think the present system of Armed Response Units is the right balance.

Give them batons, pepper spray, even tasers - but not guns.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

the american case recently its posted here somewhere

You will be ok you do your running :-)

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Are you saying the public in the UK (let's not forget the Police are all members of the public) are so useless they can't be trusted the same way virtually every other country in the world is? That a Police recruit in England, Wales and Scotland is less capable than one in Northern Ireland?

The army manage to train 16 year olds to handle pistols, rifles and heavier weaponry quite well, why would a Police officer, older and with more life experience be any less safe?

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

When we had an armed raid this way in the town there were so many armed police officers, I didn't know we had so many police let alone armed Police.

Regarding Dale Cregan being charged I must have misread the article as I can only find he was arrested now.

It would now seem Cregan shot the wrong person and then took the father out. Having to deal with guns is bad but now they are throwing grenades.

Did they not hold a firearms ticket that not all officers would hold? My brother in law held a firearms ticket in the Met but never had cause to hold or use a gun in service.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Yep, it was a bit more relaxed then and as long as you could show you knew which end went bang was enough to get a firearm checked out in some cases.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/se...er-gun-weapons

Not that many, a large chunk of them will be in the Met so even less for the rest of the population.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

I've read this a couple of times now, and I can only come to the conclusion that you appeal to vagueries because you really have no substantive arguments against equipping police with firearms. :)

Personally, I'm no fan of guns, and I like the idea that police don't carry firearms, but like Will21st, I have spent many years on the continent where police do carry firearms as standard. Like Will, I did not find it threatening in any way, and contrary to what you're suggesting it is actually extremely uncommon to see police officers dressed in riot gear, be it routinely or otherwise. I don't recall any harrowing statistics of scores of innocents being killed by the Police either. As suggested in Hugh's link, it's actually quite rare for the police to use their guns.

Like I said, I like the idea that the Police don't carry firearms as standard, but it really wouldn't bother me one bit if they started doing so.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

I know a fair few cops who have jumped to become Police in Australia and Canada and a couple of other places. In all cases they have managed to transfer from being unarmed to carrying a pistol without becoming trigger happy lunatics.

One in particular has used his taser at least three times but never had to even draw his glock. He's gone from being moderately anti-gun to thinking that going on patrol without it is unthinkable despite never having needed it.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Well,I read a couple of years ago that two cops in Frankfurt shot an axe-wielding thug in the legs,so it doesn't just happens in films... but I know what you mean. In fact I just found a website with many other examples of cops shooting suspects mainly in the legs to stop them! I hope your Deutsch is still up to scratch,ja? ;)

http://www.schusswaffeneinsatz.de/Fa...izeibeamte.pdf
and about the warning shots.... if possible police will fire them into the ground (grass,mud and the like), otherwise in the air afaik.

In case you're wondering how I know so much about german police... apart from living there for a long time I also have friends in the german police. You know what they think about their UK counterparts being unarmed? They think it's madness... and I agree. Having to shoot a crook if push comes to shove is part of the job,sometimes it's the only play left to protect the public.... sad but true.

Why not? Why this deep distrust? How does a baton and spray help against a knife or axe-wielding thug or someone with a firearm? How does a taser help with that?
How will a cop protect an innocent member of the public if the crook is willing to do serious damage? Sometimes lethal force is all that's left.

Thank you,well put. :)

That's the thing that most people don't seem to realise... a tiny,tiny minority of cops will ever use their gun....
however I do believe it is a legitimate tool to force compliance,if necessary. Like I said in my earlier reply,my german cop friends find the idea of an unarmed police force ludicrous.... I agree.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

No idea what point you're trying to make there as you haven't made it very well. I don't think the public, and you can correct me here, are armed......generally. I would also assume that the very vast majority of the public, and most of the police for that matter, have even handled a weapon let alone fired one.

Do you think handling a fire arm is just a case of training somebody how to pull the trigger?

I doubt we could afford the continuous training and assessment required to have all of our officers armed, or do you suggest something like a 3 day training course with a refresher every year?

I certainly wouldn't want someone with that level of training walking the street with a side arm.

Then are you also suggesting that only those that pass the relevent training and psychological aptitude test are allowed to carry a sidearm? It can't be a matter of choice you either arm all police or keep the current system.

I would argue we would lose many serving officers that a) didn't want to carry a weapon and b) failed to pass the required level to carry a weapon.

Then what about those that actuall fire their weapons, I can already see the claims for PTSD and being pensioned off fully filing in.

I have to question the motives of the beat officer that requests the use of a weapon, probably been watching too many american cop shows.

Possibly, but the PSNI and it's forebears have always carried weapons and the public are used to that, and the recruits that join know that they will have to carry a weapon.

Most UK officers did not join expecting to carry a weapon, unless they specifically put themselves forward to do so.

This is not apples with apples.

Happily go on patrol in Helmand would you?

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

It really isn't - it just happens to be something you agree with. I don't have time to reply fully at the moment as I'm writing an article about the distractions of internet access in the office. ;)

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

More than once I have been asked if its true that UK cops do not have guns.
Folks just find it amazing. Me I find it extremely brave.
Other descriptions do come to mind. However this is not the time or place to use them .

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

I'd really love to know how many times the police, in the UK, actually do come up against "axe wielding thugs"

Well with a range of approx 35ft unless the knife and axe wielding thugs are the last of the mohicans you should be able to stop them.

Someone else who thinks Hill Street Blues was a factual dosumentary series............Let's be careful out there.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Yes,the words were something like that. I was glad they weren't for me!:erm:

By the way,the burglar(s) wasn't caught.They didn't even see anyone,maybe they were long gone,who knows?
What matters was that the cops had the means to go in with the tools to protect themselves and me best they could.
Well,why shouldn't they wear a sidearm as routine? It's about having the tools for the job. I've said this before,a cop having to use his gun is so rare,but when (s)he needs it should have it. I expect the police to be able to deal with threats when they arise,that's what they do. In this country,police have to run from armed threat and leave the public vulnerable. During the Derek Bird shooting some officers could have stopped him but had to retreat due to being unarmed...
By the time the ARV arrives it's too late.How is that acceptable?
That is another thing that is just wrong,imo. Remember the guy who was wielding a machete on the streets of London and it took twenty or so constables to take him down? Those constables had to defend themselves with dustbin lids!
Normally a scenario like that could be resolved with two cops with Glocks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw

How is this acceptable?

What about those poor officers who were attacked by a dog and almost torn to shreds? They were helpless and had to wait for an ARV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qhSwyCgx00

How is that acceptable?

Really? Regular cops in full riot gear? Where? I've been to Spain,Italy and Germany in the past 2 months and haven't see that anywhere. What I did see however were nice,chatty,approachable cops in nice,functional uniforms (unlike UK police uniforms which seem to be a cobbled-together mess).
I really don't understand this separation you refer to? European police are just as nice and approachable as over here.Heck,I found US cops to be great a lot of the time. If you are polite and up-front most cops will be the same to you. Respect goes a long way.
However I also think that as persons of authority cops need to be a little bit 'detached'. They have to be. They enforce the law. If need be against your will.If need be at the tip of a gun.

And as one last thing,this 'policing by consent' thing.... sorry,I just don't get that. I think it's another lie we like to tell ourselves. Police don't police by consent. They keep the peace and enforce the law,wether you or I like it or not.

Considering how utterly rude and disrespectful so many of the public seem to be towards the police here,I think a re-evaluation of public relations between police and public may be in order.

R.I.P WPC Bone
R.I.P.WPC Hughes :(

---------- Post added at 15:12 ---------- Previous post was at 15:10 ----------

Yeah,and because it just happens to be something you disagree with it isn't well put? ;)

---------- Post added at 15:23 ---------- Previous post was at 15:12 ----------

Police get attacked by people with knives,baseball bats,Samurai swords and sometimes even axes.... how do you suggest they defend themselves effectively?
You know a taser doesn't always work,right? Sometimes a taser isn't enough to stop someone.
Also,there's no need for your sarky comments.I've spent a long time in societies where police are routinely armed.My observation is that it is a good thing.Which by the way is the observation in most of the rest of the planet's police forces.
By the way...never seen Hill Street Blues.

Reality informed my opinion,not fiction :)

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

I've been asked this many times too. "Don't need them over there, isn't that great?" is my reply. I then follow on to say (tongue in cheek) "You see that's one reason why I moved to Britain, the Brits are freedom loving. They sure do know what freedom means.". That usually winds them up nicely.

Next time one of your American friends asks you if its true that UK cops don't carry guns, just consider it your duty to inform them that from September 2000 through to September 2010, 511 American cops died as a result of hostile gunfire.
In that same time frame, just three British policemen (excluding N. Ireland) died as a result of hostile gunfire. Amazing what we can achieve when we apply a little common sense to gun ownership.

http://www.denverpost.com/nationworl...250?source=rss

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...e_line_of_duty

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

How often?

As I have set out previously, there many non-lethal methods available.

there's no guarantee a weapon will always fire.

I think there is.

It was really good.