Re: Where are we all going to work?
 

I think that's an understatement. Can anyone seriously see any government being elected on such a premise? The only way I can see this happening is some sort of global crisis (rather like what happened in WWII) the result of which is that governments take 'emergency' control of many aspects of our lives (e.g. ration books). The only difference being that the controls won't be temporary because we can no longer support the sort of lifestyles more and more people around the globe are becoming accustomed to. In the absence of a crystal ball, that's my bet.

Re: Where are we all going to work?
 

Ok so automation puts people out of work, this reduces the amount of disposable income.

Companies can only make profits if people have the disposable to purchase the companies goods.

The more that is automated the less disposable income there will be.

So how's that going to generate wealth?

Re: Where are we all going to work?
 

you just won't make overlord with that attitude ;)

Re: Where are we all going to work?
 

UBI would be taxable, so that would claw back some of it.

There would be huge cost savings in benefits with most people no longer needing them, student maintenance loans could be abolished and the administration of all these schemes would reduce by a massive amount eg most unemployed people would not need to be signed on, there would be no need for them to be checked up on to see if they're looking for work. Most sick and disabled people wouldn't need to be constantly tested again and again, very few appeals would be made, most of those in work wouldn't need any other top up payments like Access To Work, Universal Credit, Tax Credits, Housing Benefit, Council Tax Support. Pensioners wouldn't be forced into a humiliating means test to top up their pension with pension credit etc etc.

Fraud would be virtually eliminated.

The remainder would be raised by a robot tax on employers to share the benefits of automation and help to negate the negative effects.

---------- Post added at 11:44 ---------- Previous post was at 11:30 ----------

But people would have it as a right for simply being over the minimum age decided and living in the UK.

This is one of the reasons why I think we need to deal with immigration as a matter of urgency. Even if it can be proved that the economy needs immigrants at the moment, they will become a burden in future years. Perhaps we ought to be giving out fixed time visas right now.

The only fraud I can think of would be claims for non existent people or those who have died, with all other current fraudulent activity no longer being relevant (eg not declaring savings, income etc) fraud inspectors could concentrate on this activity.

Rather than increasing the tax for those still in employment, it would be paid for by paying less out in benefits, reducing administrative costs, reducing fraud, increasing the tax take by making it taxable income and a tax on employers who save money on their wages bill by using robots.

Re: Where are we all going to work?
 

Any long term space left on your boat mate? I'm not pretty but am a great cook and pretty handy with the old DIY... ;)

Re: Where are we all going to work?
 

I don't think anyone knows really but we will have to do something. There are people who think about this a lot, more than us here, and ultimately the issue will be forced on all of us eventually.

The Governments will work it out first will have an advantage but I am pretty optimistic. I think it will free us all up to do more innovative and creative things rather than turn us into a dystopian nightmare.

Re: Where are we all going to work?
 

He might have a job for you as a ordinary seaman perhaps.:D

Re: Where are we all going to work?
 

I used to think that when I was your age. The world's undergone unprecedented change since then and the rate of that change is increasing... ;)

Re: Where are we all going to work?
 

So, no more more benefit payments, that's all Jobcentre employees out of work. The payment of UBI could easily be automated so that's a whole load more DWP employees out of work. UBI would only be taxable for those with a job or savings higher than the allowed amount. So automation as well as putting millions out of work will also cut the jobs of those who would usually deal with them. Cool cost savings there.

I agree with you on immigration and think we should also move onto a points based system where those who are really needed should be allowed in but for set periods depending on age of entry and taxes paid or something along those lines.

I forgot to ask, will UBI be a lesser amount than current benefits considering there will be a huge rise in unemployment due to automation?

Re: Where are we all going to work?
 

Some benefits will still be needed, but the vast majority of income related benefits won't, so you're right in that UBI in itself would result in further job losses. I'm certain that UBI will be automated as more and more traditional benefits are being automated right now.

The actual amount varies between the countries trying it out and has yet to be determined. I personally believe that, in today's terms, we should aim for at least £86, this figure is derived by using the current amount of Jobseekers Allowance for a single person over 25 of £73.10.

The Government has frozen this since 2010; updated for inflation it would be about £86 and prevent anyone going below the poverty line (not including housing costs).

Suggestions have been made to make it cheaper by making it age related eg not payable to those under 21 or 25 and/or making it start out at a lower rate for young people and steadily increasing it as a person gets older.

Re: Where are we all going to work?
 

Logically it can't can it

The wealth is generated by other means, here's a very simple and very basic example:

If you can only afford to pay £50 for an 'item' instead of £80 then you can't buy it, which means a loss to the manufacturer unless he reduces the manufacturing costs to allow operating profit.

You can reduce costs by lowering the quality of component parts, or by reducing the staff. Reducing staff leads to a scenario like yours, but reducing quality leads to a shorter 'lifetime' of the item, which means you buy it once every year instead of every 2 years, and therefore the manufacturer has to double his output. Which also means the suppliers of component parts have to increase theirs too.

Doubling production by using machines leads to a reduction of staff levels (costs), but they have to cover the cost of those machines by ensuring they can sell the product they manufacture . . and here's the good bit.

Advertising. All those people put out of work by machines are now employed in the large (and ever growing) industry of advertising. Take a look around yourselves today, adverts in many varied formats are forever being pushed into your daily life . . . and we're paying them for it

. . . oh, gotta go, the phone is ringing again :D:D:D

Re: Where are we all going to work?
 

But the world is better than it was however many years ago that was ;). Over the last 20-30 years people can travel further for cheaper, they can communicate which distant people easier and cheaper almost instantly wherever they are, we carry devices around that allow us to do that or find out almost any information we want at a moment's notice and fewer people are dying of starvation, war, poverty or disease.

Would you have been able to believe some of the oppertunities and technologies that exist today when you where whatever age I am? :D

Re: Where are we all going to work?
 

I can remember being told in infant school that by the year 2000 we would be holidaying on the moon, eating pills instead of food, that we'd have flying cars, that we'd have hundreds of TV channels, that we'd have individual portable communication devices like Star Trek and that most people wouldn't have to work as robots would do it all for us etc.

A few predictions have come true, some, like flying cars, are coming a bit later than expected and some a lot later like trips to the moon and some haven't come true thus far like pills as an alternative to food (but many people use pills for recreational purposes instead of alcohol, cigarettes etc).

The robot thing now looks to be gradually coming true.

The whole ethos of the work ethic will have to change, how many of us were brought up to believe that we must work for a living and contribute towards society?

At the moment this Government is intent on making even the most severely disabled look for work:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/743...k-and-Benefits

Many people would still like to work, so if UIB was introduced there would be more scope for voluntary work eg doing the gardens of incapacitated people, reading to the blind etc or volunteering for charities who have had their funding cut. Hard pressed local authorities could reintroduce services that have had to be cut or stopped due to austerity eg tending to park vegetation.

As Damien said, there would also be more time to pursue hobbies and interests.

Attitudes like this will have to change towards the unemployed:

Maybe for those able to work there could be a conditionality upon UIB? If it was implemented today at £86 and the minimum wage was, say £10 per hour, they could be required to do a minimum of 9 hours per week?

UIB should also help to deal with the misplaced resentment of the unemployed as working people would be receiving the same payment as someone not in remunerative work and those not in paid employment would be working for their income.

Re: Where are we all going to work?
 

I wonder whether under UBI, market forces would cause the poverty line to become just under the amount that UBI is. So, if everyone received £86 per week, it would become impossible to survive on £86. Likewise, if everyone were given £250 per week, market forces would pick that up so that £250 per week then became just under the poverty line...

Re: Where are we all going to work?
 

The poverty line is worked out by taking into account only essential day to day living expenses eg an amount for only one bath or shower a week!

It could be set at any rate that any country desires, the poverty line idea is just my suggestion as a minimum to make it work.

As it stands, since David Cameron froze most benefits in 2010, many people are now living below the minimum that they need to live on eg a single healthy claimant is getting JSA of £73.10 per week, when uprating for the effects of inflation would have meant that they would be getting £86.01; a shortfall of £12.91.

In addition, they now have to pay between 20 and 30% towards their Council Tax and various amounts towards their housing costs.

The Government lied and said that the disabled would be protected from this, but the first £73.10 of their money has been frozen and some have also lost a further £30 a week if not in the Support Group.