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-   -   Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran … War (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33712196)

Paul 20-10-2023 23:24
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36162407)
I believe this is the post John referred to:

anti-Jewish == anti-Semite
Except the post stated "accusing forum members of being anti-Semitic".

I do not see any forum members being accused.

OLD BOY 21-10-2023 01:18
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36162362)
What's your source about the effectiveness of this approach?


Cutting off the utilities to the entire population is classified by brighter minds than ours as a collective punishment. It's really not that hard to work out why.


I've not expressed a preferred option, I've just said that international law needs to be followed. But don't kid yourself that any military action will end the war.


Benchmarking against Hamas - which is what you did - is a race to the bottom.

I've not followed the words of Sunak and Starmer to know their views on the utilities. Though like of all of us, they acknowledge the right of Israel to defend itself. I'm not sure anyone on this Forum needs to fall in line with their views anyway.
Your approach almost guarantees a Hamas win. Which begs the question. whose side are you on?

---------- Post added at 01:00 ---------- Previous post was at 00:58 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36162407)
I believe this is the post John referred to:



anti-Jewish == anti-Semite
10 out of 10. Tell me what other deductions you can deduce.. I’m all ears…

---------- Post added at 01:11 ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36162363)
Notice how they are talking about the ‘immediate’ impact?

Why are you supporting the Hamas narrative? Do you really think that with a beer in a pub with these nice guys, you can win an argument over a few pints?

You really are delusional if you believe that we can ever come to an agreement with these monsters. They need to be eliminated.

---------- Post added at 01:14 ---------- Previous post was at 01:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36162401)
Where ? Please provide details as Ive looked back and I cant find this.
Agreed. A rather curious remark. Too many beers, perhaps.

---------- Post added at 01:16 ---------- Previous post was at 01:14 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162386)
Pierre we debated this in a civil way despite quite fundamental disagreements over the first few days and I know deep down you wouldn’t take up those positions at this point.

At absolute best Israel are at the limit, if not passing it a few days ago. There’s nothing to be gained continuing like this.
It’s curious how little you say about Hamas.

---------- Post added at 01:18 ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162380)
Well no, you’ve just described war crimes.

A proportionate response - I’m sure we’d actually agree on - is one that ruthlessly slaughters Hamas (and any entities assisting) while minimising civilian casualties. One that reduces its capabilities to strike Israel. It’s a balancing act that could be debated almost endlessly.

But this ain’t it.
If the aim is to root out Hamas (as opposed to punishing civilians) then it is not a war crime. Sorry to burst your bubble.

jfman 21-10-2023 06:19
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162418)
Your approach almost guarantees a Hamas win. Which begs the question. whose side are you on?

10 out of 10. Tell me what other deductions you can deduce.. I’m all ears…

Notice how they are talking about the ‘immediate’ impact?

Why are you supporting the Hamas narrative? Do you really think that with a beer in a pub with these nice guys, you can win an argument over a few pints?

You really are delusional if you believe that we can ever come to an agreement with these monsters. They need to be eliminated.

Agreed. A rather curious remark. Too many beers, perhaps.

It’s curious how little you say about Hamas.

If the aim is to root out Hamas (as opposed to punishing civilians) then it is not a war crime. Sorry to burst your bubble.
War crimes aren’t defined by intent, sorry to burst yours!

How much, or how little, I say about Hamas is irrelevant.
  • Friday night
  • 1 am
  • Implying Andrew might be on the “wrong side”
  • Calling Hugh deluded and accusing him of following a Hamas “narrative”
  • Defining war crimes incorrectly
  • Taking 20 mins to form an incoherent post.
Something something beers perhaps?

Hugh 21-10-2023 07:21
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Notice how they are talking about the ‘immediate’ impact?

Why are you supporting the Hamas narrative? Do you really think that with a beer in a pub with these nice guys, you can win an argument over a few pints?

You really are delusional if you believe that we can ever come to an agreement with these monsters. They need to be eliminated
I posted an independent article highlighting the fact your proposition re power supplies may not have been accurate, and you seem to think that makes me "delusional" and "supporting the Hamas narrative"?

Maggy 21-10-2023 08:23
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Reading through this particular thread has increased my headache. I’m wishing I had imbibed last night because I might actually understand what everyone’s beef is.

Pierre 21-10-2023 08:54
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162424)
Defining war crimes incorrectly
Well if anyone end up in court for war crimes they can use this defence from a Kings Counsel.

ianch99 21-10-2023 09:00
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36162412)
Except the post stated "accusing forum members of being anti-Semitic".

I do not see any forum members being accused.
Maybe you can ask OB to say who he meant when he said "but don’t expect the anti-Jewish guys to understand that"?

You may not see an issue here but others do.

jfman 21-10-2023 09:15
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36162427)
Well if anyone end up in court for war crimes they can use this defence from a Kings Counsel.
The certainly could, and I’m sure the legal gravy train could find a well educated KC (or someone of similar stature in another country) to argue there’s many a plausible alternative.

Doing what you “instinctively” feel is necessary might work at a personal level simply wouldn’t fly at an international one. Nation states have an obligation (to its own people as much as anything else) to act beyond instinct.

If your instinct is to identify all people of a race, religion, state or region as a threat equivalent to a terrorist (or example) it wouldn’t exempt you from an undeniable genocide. There’s many a former Yugoslavian who can testify to the existential threat to Yugoslavia as a collective entity not being a defence.

There’d also be the difficulty (over time) of demonstrating that each action in and of itself was only carried out in an “instinctive” way, rather than a cold, calculated one. An international version of the Tony Martin defence wouldn’t work given the time available to consider each individual action and recalculate the capabilities of the enemy as it diminishes.

ianch99 21-10-2023 09:17
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36162426)
Reading through this particular thread has increased my headache. I’m wishing I had imbibed last night because I might actually understand what everyone’s beef is.
I think the main problem here is that there are those who will only consider the rights, impact and welfare of one of the two belligerents. The context & nuance on why both sides think like they do is lost on them. They have picked a side and will endorse a blank cheque to whatever actions they chose to undertake.

You have to look at the whole picture, both today and in the years past. This provide the context & illumination to try and understand how each side perceives each other. The main problem driving today's discussion is the partisan outrage following Hama's terrorist attacks. The response from so many to kill Hamas members at all costs is chilling. The lack of basic humanity in choosing to kill innocent women & children in pursue of your enemy is a crime yet so many are happy to endorse this. We have people saying with apparent conviction "If the children die, blame Hamas" and to justify these deaths because "that is what we did in WWII in Dresden". Have we sunk that low?

Pierre 21-10-2023 10:15
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36162430)
I think the main problem here is that there are those who will only consider the rights, impact and welfare of one of the two belligerents. The context & nuance on why both sides think like they do is lost on them. They have picked a side and will endorse a blank cheque to whatever actions they chose to undertake.

You have to look at the whole picture, both today and in the years past. This provide the context & illumination to try and understand how each side perceives each other. The main problem driving today's discussion is the partisan outrage following Hama's terrorist attacks. The response from so many to kill Hamas members at all costs is chilling. The lack of basic humanity in choosing to kill innocent women & children in pursue of your enemy is a crime yet so many are happy to endorse this. We have people saying with apparent conviction "If the children die, blame Hamas" and to justify these deaths because "that is what we did in WWII in Dresden". Have we sunk that low?
That post is so full of irony and lack of self awareness it’s mind blowing. You are guilty of everything you are accusing others of.

ianch99 21-10-2023 10:36
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36162433)
That post is so full of irony and lack of self awareness it’s mind blowing. You are guilty of everything you are accusing others of.
Prove it

---------- Post added at 10:36 ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36161952)
I’ll tell you once again, not one Palestinian would be dead this week by the IDF if not for the actions of Hamas
Some context:

Palestinians under attack as Israeli settler violence surges in the West Bank

Quote:
Abed Wadi was getting dressed for the funeral when the message arrived.

It was an image, forwarded to him by a friend, of a group of masked men posing with axes, a petrol canister, and a chainsaw, with text printed on the image in Hebrew and Arabic.

"To all the rats in the sewers of Qusra village, we are waiting for you and we will not mourn you," the text said.

"The day of revenge is coming."

Qusra was Wadi's village, in the northern part of the West Bank near Nablus. The funeral that day was for four Palestinians from the village. Three had been killed the previous day - Wednesday 11 October - after Israeli settlers entered Qusra and attacked a Palestinian family home.

The fourth was shot dead in clashes with Israeli soldiers that followed.

The following day, the Qusra villagers were preparing to set out for a hospital half an hour away and return with the bodies of the dead. To do so, they would need to travel across land that is dotted with Israeli settlements, where the risk of violence, high even in ordinary times, has risen dramatically in the two weeks since Israel went to war with Hamas.

Wadi put his phone down and continued getting dressed. There were four men in refrigerators in the hospital who needed to be brought home. He was not going to be deterred by a threat, he said. He had heard too many.

There was no way for Wadi to know that, in a few hours' time, hardline Israeli settlers would confront the funeral procession and his own brother and young nephew would be shot dead.

According to the UN's humanitarian office, the week that followed Hamas's murderous attack was the deadliest for Palestinians in the West Bank since it began reporting fatalities in 2005, with at least 75 Palestinians killed by the Israeli military or settlers, and incidents of settler violence up from an average of three a day to eight.

In one raid on a Palestinian refugee camp, and a rare air strike in the region, on Thursday 12th, Israeli forces killed at least 12 people, Palestinian officials said, and Israeli police said one officer was killed.

There was "a real risk" of the occupied territory "spiralling out of control", the UN said this week.

Palestinian residents of the West Bank say that while the world's attention is drawn to the unfolding disaster in Gaza, Israeli settlers are taking advantage by entering villages and expelling, and even killing, Palestinian civilians.

In at least three cases, according to video footage or eyewitness testimony from villagers, the settlers have been wearing military uniforms or accompanied by the Israeli military in their attacks.
Hamas are not carrying out operations in the West Bank as far I can see.

OLD BOY 21-10-2023 10:39
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36162435)
Prove it.
I don’t think you’d see it if it hit you in the face, old chap.

Sephiroth 21-10-2023 10:44
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36162426)
Reading through this particular thread has increased my headache. I’m wishing I had imbibed last night because I might actually understand what everyone’s beef is.
I suggest that you had imbibed last night as it's obvious that there are two beefs:

1/
Those who say Hamas need to be eradicated for their recent massacre of innocent Israelis.

2/
Those who pay lip service about Hamas' atrocities but then shift the blame onto Israel or enthusiastically criticise Israel for its behaviour.

OLD BOY 21-10-2023 10:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36162435)

Some context:

Palestinians under attack as Israeli settler violence surges in the West Bank

Quote:
Abed Wadi was getting dressed for the funeral when the message arrived.

It was an image, forwarded to him by a friend, of a group of masked men posing with axes, a petrol canister, and a chainsaw, with text printed on the image in Hebrew and Arabic.

"To all the rats in the sewers of Qusra village, we are waiting for you and we will not mourn you," the text said.

"The day of revenge is coming."

Qusra was Wadi's village, in the northern part of the West Bank near Nablus. The funeral that day was for four Palestinians from the village. Three had been killed the previous day - Wednesday 11 October - after Israeli settlers entered Qusra and attacked a Palestinian family home.

The fourth was shot dead in clashes with Israeli soldiers that followed.

The following day, the Qusra villagers were preparing to set out for a hospital half an hour away and return with the bodies of the dead. To do so, they would need to travel across land that is dotted with Israeli settlements, where the risk of violence, high even in ordinary times, has risen dramatically in the two weeks since Israel went to war with Hamas.

Wadi put his phone down and continued getting dressed. There were four men in refrigerators in the hospital who needed to be brought home. He was not going to be deterred by a threat, he said. He had heard too many.

There was no way for Wadi to know that, in a few hours' time, hardline Israeli settlers would confront the funeral procession and his own brother and young nephew would be shot dead.

According to the UN's humanitarian office, the week that followed Hamas's murderous attack was the deadliest for Palestinians in the West Bank since it began reporting fatalities in 2005, with at least 75 Palestinians killed by the Israeli military or settlers, and incidents of settler violence up from an average of three a day to eight.

In one raid on a Palestinian refugee camp, and a rare air strike in the region, on Thursday 12th, Israeli forces killed at least 12 people, Palestinian officials said, and Israeli police said one officer was killed.

There was "a real risk" of the occupied territory "spiralling out of control", the UN said this week.

Palestinian residents of the West Bank say that while the world's attention is drawn to the unfolding disaster in Gaza, Israeli settlers are taking advantage by entering villages and expelling, and even killing, Palestinian civilians.

In at least three cases, according to video footage or eyewitness testimony from villagers, the settlers have been wearing military uniforms or accompanied by the Israeli military in their attacks.


Hamas are not carrying out operations in the West Bank as far I can see.
But nobody is condoning that, Ian. This is how people can react after the horrific violence such Hamas unleashed on the Israeli people.

The government there must act quickly to make sure similar atrocities do not take place while the IDF deal with Hamas.

jfman 21-10-2023 10:52
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36162440)
I suggest that you had imbibed last night as it's obvious that there are two beefs:

1/
Those who say Hamas need to be eradicated for their recent massacre of innocent Israelis.
Nobody disputes that having terrorists in undesirable, the question is whether running a massive recruitment campaign on their behalf is a credible mechanism for removing them.

Failed US diplomatic efforts across the Middle East ensures that the money, weapons and logistics will continue to flow. Israel are recruiting the men.

Quote:
2/
Those who pay lip service about Hamas' atrocities but then shift the blame onto Israel or enthusiastically criticise Israel for its behaviour.
I'm not sure anyone paid 'lip service' the only distinction is whether you did it in the spineless way to green light Israeli war crimes or actually find both worthy of condemnation.

The lip service is all from our politicians around Israel's behaviour and its obligations under international law.

OLD BOY 21-10-2023 10:54
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36162440)
I suggest that you had imbibed last night as it's obvious that there are two beefs:

1/
Those who say Hamas need to be eradicated for their recent massacre of innocent Israelis.

2/
Those who pay lip service about Hamas' atrocities but then shift the blame onto Israel or enthusiastically criticise Israel for its behaviour.
Sadly, this attitude of blaming everything on Israel is an international pastime. Whenever it is pointed out that Israel is only defending itself, these accusers then point out that Israel has superior weapons, so it’s unfair. I’m afraid that logic flies out of the window whenever there’s a debate about this perpetual conflict.

ianch99 21-10-2023 10:59
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162439)
I don’t think you’d see it if it hit you in the face, old chap.
Prove it

---------- Post added at 10:59 ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162441)
But nobody is condoning that, Ian. This is how people can react after the horrific violence such Hamas unleashed on the Israeli people.

The government there must act quickly to make sure similar atrocities do not take place while the IDF deal with Hamas.
Not correct. This has been happening in the West Bank for years but this clearly does not fit your narrative.

I'll make it easy for you to understand: both sides are to blame when you look at this situation on a holistic & historical level.

OLD BOY 21-10-2023 11:01
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162442)
Nobody disputes that having terrorists in undesirable, the question is whether running a massive recruitment campaign on their behalf is a credible mechanism for removing them.

Failed US diplomatic efforts across the Middle East ensures that the money, weapons and logistics will continue to flow. Israel are recruiting the men.



I'm not sure anyone paid 'lip service' the only distinction is whether you did it in the spineless way to green light Israeli war crimes or actually find both worthy of condemnation.

The lip service is all from our politicians around Israel's behaviour and its obligations under international law.
The only way this continual violence will end is by taking out the terrorists. For some unfathomable reason, you seem to want Israel to treat them with kid gloves. Why?

I understand the sympathy being expressed for the Palestinian people, but Hamas must be removed for their sake as well as for Israel’s. We’ve tried everything else. They are not interested in any kind of settlement, they just want to obliterate Israel. Are you content to stand back and let that happen, or alternatively have this warmongering carrying on for the next 100+ years?

If you have some magic solution as an alternative to crushing Hamas, I’m sure we’d all like to hear it.

jfman 21-10-2023 11:02
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162441)
But nobody is condoning that, Ian. This is how people can react after the horrific violence such Hamas unleashed on the Israeli people.

The government there must act quickly to make sure similar atrocities do not take place while the IDF deal with Hamas.
And when Palestinians react by blowing up Israeli targets, killing Israeli civilians and worse still their allies carry out attack in European cities or in North America I assume you'll be equally as understanding.

That's how people react in the face of horrific violence, innit?

What's qwhite interesting is your ability to understand the consequences but want to deny one side that right over the other. I wonder why.

ianch99 21-10-2023 11:04
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36162440)
Those who pay lip service about Hamas' atrocities but then shift the blame onto Israel or enthusiastically criticise Israel for its behaviour
No one is doing this and you know it. I am more than happy to say now, as I have said in the past, that Hamas needs to be eradicated. Can I not make this any clearer? They are an Islamist death cult. The discussion is how it is done and what consequences such methods have.

When you, and a few others, only view a problem from one side and pay no heed to overall context and history, they make stupid comments like the above.

jfman 21-10-2023 11:05
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162447)
The only way this continual violence will end is by taking out the terrorists. For some unfathomable reason, you seem to want Israel to treat them with kid gloves. Why?

I understand the sympathy being expressed for the Palestinian people, but Hamas must be removed for their sake as well as for Israel’s. We’ve tried everything else. They are not interested in any kind of settlement, they just want to obliterate Israel. Are you content to stand back and let that happen, or alternatively have this warmongering carrying on for the next 100+ years?

If you have some magic solution as an alternative to crushing Hamas, I’m sure we’d all like to hear it.
International law is clear on the right of people in occupied territories to take up arms against their occupier. Be careful what you wish for.

When you say "we've" tried everything you've just sat in your armchair on an Internet forum saying Palestinian civilians can "suck on that". You know nothing of the pain or suffering of either side, so spare us.

OLD BOY 21-10-2023 11:10
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36162444)

Not correct. This has been happening in the West Bank for years but this clearly does not fit your narrative.

I'll make it easy for you to understand: both sides are to blame when you look at this situation on a holistic & historical level.
No, you are wrong. You cannot compartmentalise this in that way. The violence has been going on for many years and it is practically a way of life for these people. A violent assault encourages a violent defence.

If you and your family were being threatened with this kind of violence and intimidation, you wouldn’t just sit there and take it. Well, nor will the Israelites, and why should they?

The Palestinians have a legitimate grievance about a past generation being removed from the place they once lived, but this is not the way to go about resolving that dispute. Get rid of the fanaticism and lack of trust, and the two sides could live in peace together and even find a way of sharing the land currently occupied by Israel. That is a long way off, of course, but it should be an objective.

But nothing will change while Hamas exists.

jfman 21-10-2023 11:14
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162451)
A violent assault encourages a violent defence.

If you and your family were being threatened with this kind of violence and intimidation, you wouldn’t just sit there and take it.
Sounds like something a terrorist sympathiser would say.

---------- Post added at 11:14 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162451)
The Palestinians have a legitimate grievance about a past generation being removed from the place they once lived
I dunno, OB. I think thousands of Israeli missiles (6000 at last count, but that's a few days ago) falling onto a land of 141 square miles where 2.2 million people live might be a legitimate grievance.

Sephiroth 21-10-2023 11:17
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162447)
The only way this continual violence will end is by taking out the terrorists. For some unfathomable reason, you seem to want Israel to treat them with kid gloves. Why?

I understand the sympathy being expressed for the Palestinian people, but Hamas must be removed for their sake as well as for Israel’s. We’ve tried everything else. They are not interested in any kind of settlement, they just want to obliterate Israel. Are you content to stand back and let that happen, or alternatively have this warmongering carrying on for the next 100+ years?

If you have some magic solution as an alternative to crushing Hamas, I’m sure we’d all like to hear it.
That's the nub of the matter.

OLD BOY 21-10-2023 11:19
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162450)
International law is clear on the right of people in occupied territories to take up arms against their occupier. Be careful what you wish for.

When you say "we've" tried everything you've just sat in your armchair on an Internet forum saying Palestinian civilians can "suck on that". You know nothing of the pain or suffering of either side, so spare us.
What pathetic responses you do make, jfman. It’s time you pursued a course in comprehension so that you can start to understand the meaning of posts rather than this pointless incorrect interpretation of individual words and phrases and even whole posts. Your armchair must be very comfortable indeed judging by the number of posts and arguments you stir up on here.

The issue about international law is not well understood by those accusing Israel of breaking it. Civilians may be hurt or killed in any war, but that only constitutes a war crime if that is a deliberate or reckless act. If civilians happen to be killed while Israel takes measures to defend itself because they ‘get in the way’ (collateral damage) that is indeed unfortunate but it is not a war crime.

jfman 21-10-2023 11:26
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162455)
What pathetic responses you do make, jfman. It’s time you pursued a course in comprehension so that you can start to understand the meaning of posts rather than this pointless incorrect interpretation of individual words and phrases and even whole posts. Your armchair must be very comfortable indeed judging by the number of posts and arguments you stir up on here.

The issue about international law is not well understood by those accusing Israel of breaking it. Civilians may be hurt or killed in any war, but that only constitutes a war crime if that is a deliberate or reckless act. If civilians happen to be killed while Israel takes measures to defend itself because they ‘get in the way’ (collateral damage) that is indeed unfortunate but it is not a war crime.
I'm sure the Palestinians will take some solace in the fact you judged them to be killed for getting in the way, rather than massacred at the hands of a terrorist state. I'm hesitant to ask where you think they should go as bombs rain down on almost every square mile of a tiny land? Churches? Schools? Hospitals?

Your arguments are far more compelling than whatever Iranians will be whispering in the ears of the next generation of militants I'm sure.

Your callous disregard for Palestinian life oozes though almost every post, how else do you expect me to interpret Palestinian families - specifically families not terrorists - can suck on that?

1andrew1 21-10-2023 11:44
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36162435)
Prove it
Please don't bog down Old Boy with more requests for evidence to back up his proclamations! The poor lad is still scrabbling around to dig up something to support his assertion that "They have cut off utilities to force Hamas to surface from their tunnels, and apparently this has been pretty successful so far."

---------- Post added at 11:44 ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36162454)
That's the nub of the matter.
Old Boy's punish-all-Palestinians-in-Gaza approach just acts as a recruiting sergeant for Hamas.

jfman 21-10-2023 11:55
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
If OB was debating sincerely held beliefs we wouldn't have had the quality analysis of the 2006 Palestinian election. His belief, now as then, wasn't that civilians were accidental victims in all that it was - and remains - that they absolutely deserve it because of who they are and where they live. However he can't say that so we have the distractions, the obfuscation and outright shithousery that is him wading from weak argument to weak argument.

OLD BOY 21-10-2023 12:17
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162456)
I'm sure the Palestinians will take some solace in the fact you judged them to be killed for getting in the way, rather than massacred at the hands of a terrorist state. I'm hesitant to ask where you think they should go as bombs rain down on almost every square mile of a tiny land? Churches? Schools? Hospitals?

Your arguments are far more compelling than whatever Iranians will be whispering in the ears of the next generation of militants I'm sure.

Your callous disregard for Palestinian life oozes though almost every post, how else do you expect me to interpret Palestinian families - specifically families not terrorists - can suck on that?
You may not like it, but that’s basically what the law says. You still haven’t given us your solution.

---------- Post added at 12:17 ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36162459)
Old Boy's punish-all-Palestinians-in-Gaza approach just acts as a recruiting sergeant for Hamas.
You also offer no alternative solutions, Andrew. Israel has it, and it’s the only solution in town.

jfman 21-10-2023 12:18
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
It absolutely isn’t what the law says, however it also entitles Hamas to engage in military combat with Israel as an occupying force but I don’t hear you parroting that one often. Nor the Palestinian’s moral authority to carry out reprisals in the face of violence and intimidation.

You still haven’t told us how many Palestinian civilian deaths would be too many as Israel carry out their “careful” carpet bombing of Gaza? Where should civilians seek refuge to “get out the way”?

OLD BOY 21-10-2023 12:20
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162464)
It absolutely isn’t what the law says, it also entitles Hamas to engage in military combat with Israel as an occupying force but I don’t hear you parroting that one often.

You still haven’t told us how many Palestinian civilian deaths would be too many as Israel carry out their “careful” carpet bombing of Gaza?
And you still haven’t offered up any alternative solutions. Your time would be better spent in devising one rather than slagging off others who can see the reality of the situation.

jfman 21-10-2023 12:24
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162465)
And you still haven’t offered up any alternative solutions. Your time would be better spent in devising one rather than slagging off others who can see the reality of the situation.
OB the distance between your input into this thread and reality could be measured in light years.

I refer to my first post of the day - where I pointed out that late on a Friday night you took it upon yourself to question what side other forum members were on and accusing another linking an independent source of using Hamas narratives. Neither stood up to scrutiny. The only other constant alongside your blatant disregard for Palestinian life.

1andrew1 21-10-2023 12:40
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162462)
You also offer no alternative solutions, Andrew. Israel has it, and it’s the only solution in town.
I've been consistently saying that Israel has a right to defend itself but not to collectively punish Palestinians living in Gaza.

You've still failed to show how cutting off utilities is the quick and effective weapon for flushing out Hamas. And, instead of sensibly trying to prove your point or retract it, you've sidestepped the issue and chosen instead to accuse other forum members like Hugh of favouring a Hamas narrative.

OLD BOY 21-10-2023 13:14
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162467)
OB the distance between your input into this thread and reality could be measured in light years.

I refer to my first post of the day - where I pointed out that late on a Friday night you took it upon yourself to question what side other forum members were on and accusing another linking an independent source of using Hamas narratives. Neither stood up to scrutiny. The only other constant alongside your blatant disregard for Palestinian life.
What I will agree with you is that the gap in perspective between you and me can be measured in light years.

You may think you are right about everything, but if you’re saying my view of things is not credible, I would point out, again, that both the PM and the Leader of the Opposition are of the view that Israel need to take out Hamas, but with as few civilian casualties as possible. My view is exactly the same.

Your stance, if carried out, would solve nothing and prolong this war.

---------- Post added at 13:14 ---------- Previous post was at 13:06 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36162468)
I've been consistently saying that Israel has a right to defend itself but not to collectively punish Palestinians living in Gaza.

You've still failed to show how cutting off utilities is the quick and effective weapon for flushing out Hamas. And, instead of sensibly trying to prove your point or retract it, you've sidestepped the issue and chosen instead to accuse other forum members like Hugh of favouring a Hamas narrative.
I am not side stepping anything. I’ve told you what I think. I am happy for you to disagree as long as you don’t get involved in government….

Israel is not collectively punishing civilians. It is attempting to flush out Hamas. The civilians are an unfortunate casualty of that, but causing them grief is not the objective. This is on Hamas, who deliberately hide amongst the population and are actively blocking them from leaving Gaza City to go to the south of the country.

I see that the border has been opened now to let some trucks through, which is good news for them.

TheDaddy 21-10-2023 13:30
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162465)
And you still haven’t offered up any alternative solutions. Your time would be better spent in devising one rather than slagging off others who can see the reality of the situation.
You can't though, what's happening isn't a solution, it's a recipe to continue the saga further

OLD BOY 21-10-2023 14:04
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36162471)
You can't though, what's happening isn't a solution, it's a recipe to continue the saga further
Why? It’s Hamas and Hezbollah, encouraged and supported by Iran, that are the cause of this problem and getting in the way of a peaceful resolution.

What would you do? Nothing? We have to root out the cause of this conflict, and that starts with Hamas.

TheDaddy 21-10-2023 14:15
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162475)
Why? It’s Hamas and Hezbollah, encouraged and supported by Iran, that are the cause of this problem and getting in the way of a peaceful resolution.

What would you do? Nothing? We have to root out the cause of this conflict, and that starts with Hamas.
I realise you have form for not reading the thread but I've already said what I'd do but considering it doesn't involve continuing the status quo or killing lots of poor people I'm not that surprised you missed it

OLD BOY 21-10-2023 14:17
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
The only alternative solutions I’ve seen on here involve the continued persecution of the Jewish people.

jfman 21-10-2023 14:18
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162478)
The only alternative solutions I’ve seen on here involve the continued persecution of the Jewish people.
Source?

Please link to at least one specific post. If you are going to make the veiled implication that forum members are anti-Semitic then I’d also invite you to name them.

I have called out and evidenced your blatant disregard for Palestinian civilians. If you feel anyone has the same for Jews then please evidence it.

OLD BOY 21-10-2023 14:23
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Being soft on Hamas is a recipe for a continuation of this harassment against Israel.

PS - do your own research, that’s a good chap.

Hugh 21-10-2023 14:27
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
https://wapo.st/3tIczaV

Quote:
Listen to the Gazans who are seeking a path away from Hamas...

...As this war progresses, the political and economic reconstruction of Gaza can’t be an afterthought for Israel; it’s a strategic necessity. Hamas laid a trap, betting that Israeli retaliation would entrench extremism all the more. If Israel treats all Gazans as enemies, it will fall into that trap and guarantee the ultimate failure of its mission. Fighting Hamas is a just war, but it must be accompanied by a clear plan, framed by the United States and friendly Arab countries working with a new generation of Palestinian leaders, to rebuild Gaza and invest in the West Bank. Otherwise, the war will create nothing but more rage in a barren land...

...The biggest mistake Israel could make in this conflict is not thinking carefully about “the day after.” That starts with governance. If Israel means to break Hamas’s control, what power will fill the vacuum? Israel doesn’t want to run Gaza, and its proxies will be rejected as collaborators. The best hope — the only hope, really — is that moderate Arab nations will work to create a new, post-Hamas structure that will represent a new Palestinian Authority that could govern the West Bank, as well...

..."How this war is prosecuted — and what’s left behind when it’s over — will shape the future,” says Brian Katulis, a senior fellow at the Middle East Institute who has lived in Gaza. He says that Israel, the United States and its Arab allies have to help the Palestinians find an “alternative political path.”

The worst days of this war are ahead. Talking about reconstruction might seem delusional when Israeli bombs are falling and their tanks are rolling forward. But if Israel’s leaders aren’t careful, they could once again win the war but lose the peace.


---------- Post added at 14:27 ---------- Previous post was at 14:26 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162478)
The only alternative solutions I’ve seen on here involve the continued persecution of the Jewish people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162480)
Being soft on Hamas is a recipe for a continuation of this harassment against Israel.

PS - do your own research, that’s a good chap.
Don't make accusations you can't back up with links or quotes - there's a good chap...

jfman 21-10-2023 14:31
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162480)
Being soft on Hamas is a recipe for a continuation of this harassment against Israel.

PS - do your own research, that’s a good chap.
I can’t do the impossible by evidencing false claims fabricated out of thin air.

If you have nothing useful to add other than slurring forum members with accusations of anti-semitism then I suggest you go for a lie down and sleep it off leaving other forum members to continue with a contentious but civil discussion.

OLD BOY 21-10-2023 14:34
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36162481)
https://wapo.st/3tIczaV



---------- Post added at 14:27 ---------- Previous post was at 14:26 ----------




Don't make accusations you can't back up with links or quotes - there's a good chap...
That is not even a possibility while Hamas is still in charge in Gaza. It’s certainly a solution, but Hamas need to be destroyed first. So I stand by the point I made.

---------- Post added at 14:34 ---------- Previous post was at 14:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162484)
I can’t do the impossible by evidencing false claims fabricated out of thin air.

If you have nothing useful to add other than slurring forum members with accusations of anti-semitism then I suggest you go for a lie down and sleep it off leaving other forum members to continue with a contentious but civil discussion.
I suggest you stop your own personal attacks and keep to the subject. The leaders of both main parties agree with my view on this, although I cannot say the same about Corbyn. His sympathy for terrorist groups is well documented.

Chris 21-10-2023 14:39
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162485)
That is not even a possibility while Hamas is still in charge in Gaza. It’s certainly a solution, but Hamas need to be destroyed first. So I stand by the point I made.
Agreeing with an outcome is not the same thing as agreeing with a means. The means you have proposed involves wholesale, deliberate commission of war crimes and teeters dangerously close to genocide.

The phrase ‘suck it up’ will deservedly haunt you on this forum for quite some time.

Quote:
I suggest you stop your own personal attacks and keep to the subject. The leaders of both main parties agree with my view on this, although I cannot say the same about Corbyn. His sympathy for terrorist groups is well documented.
Neither Starmer nor Sunak have articulated support for Israeli action in Gaza in anything like the terms you have used.

Israel is entitled to defend itself and defence legitimately involves military action on the territory from which it was attacked. That does not give Israel carte blanche to commit wholesale destruction without due regard for the civilian population.

TheDaddy 21-10-2023 14:39
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162478)
The only alternative solutions I’ve seen on here involve the continued persecution of the Jewish people.
A cop out to cover for your own ignorance is a reoccurring theme throughout the thread, I'd suggest looking harder than resorting to that

Hugh 21-10-2023 15:41
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162485)
That is not even a possibility while Hamas is still in charge in Gaza. It’s certainly a solution, but Hamas need to be destroyed first. So I stand by the point I made.

---------- Post added at 14:34 ---------- Previous post was at 14:31 ----------



I suggest you stop your own personal attacks and keep to the subject. The leaders of both main parties agree with my view on this, although I cannot say the same about Corbyn. His sympathy for terrorist groups is well documented.

From your recent posts (within the last 24 hours)

Which begs the question. whose side are you on?

Why are you supporting the Hamas narrative? Do you really think that with a beer in a pub with these nice guys, you can win an argument over a few pints?

You really are delusional if you believe that we can ever come to an agreement with these monsters.

What pathetic responses you do make, jfman

John 8:7

---------- Post added at 15:41 ---------- Previous post was at 14:57 ----------

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1...51f322ab7ae698

Quote:
At a peace summit in Cairo, James Cleverly said the international community must work together to “prevent the conflict from engulfing” the Middle East. He said: “We are all seeing on social media and in our communities how divisive and polarising the current situation has become.

“We have a duty to work together to prevent instability from engulfing the region and claiming yet more lives. We must work together to prevent the tragic situation in Gaza from becoming a regional conflict. That is exactly what Hamas want. We must ensure Hamas does not win. Rather, we must ensure that peaceful coexistence wins.”...

..."Despite the incredibly difficult circumstances I have called for discipline and professionalism and restraint from the Israeli military ... I still believe in the power of diplomacy and still believe we can work together to secure a future where Israelis and Palestinians live in peace.”

Pierre 21-10-2023 16:29
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36162435)
Prove it
It’s clear what side you’ve picked, it’s evident in the tone of your posts.

Quote:
Gaza is the worlds largest prison camp.
Quote:
Only actions against Israel seem to have a mandate for condemnation.
Quote:
you would clearly condemn the state terrorism that Israel is inflecting on the civilians in Gaza
Quote:
The people who claim that children killed by Israeli bombs are not victims of terrorism in the same way that the Israeli's killed by the Hamas terrorists are the real problem here.
Quote:
If Israel is held to account in the same way that Hamas, Iran, etc. are then this whole narrative would be radically different.
Quote:
It looks more likely that a heavier missile was fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad and either was intercepted over the hospital area or just failed in flight and landed on the hospital. I guess more details will come out in time. However, this does not absolve Israel of culpability: these 1000's of people would not have been in that hospital if the IDF was not bombing their homes.
You can clearly see from all of your posts, not just the ones highlighted, where your sympathies are. That’s 100% fine. But don’t come here complaining about blindly picking sides when it’s evident where your biases are.

---------- Post added at 16:26 ---------- Previous post was at 16:24 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36162440)
Those who pay lip service about Hamas' atrocities but then shift the blame onto Israel or enthusiastically criticise Israel for its behaviour.
It’s blatantly obvious

---------- Post added at 16:28 ---------- Previous post was at 16:26 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36162449)
No one is doing this and you know it.
:erm:

---------- Post added at 16:29 ---------- Previous post was at 16:28 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162450)
International law is clear on the right of people in occupied territories to take up arms against their occupier.
Gaza wasn’t occupied.

jfman 21-10-2023 16:44
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
It’s a disputed point just now but it won’t be when Israel have boots on the ground.

ianch99 21-10-2023 17:51
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36162501)
It’s clear what side you’ve picked, it’s evident in the tone of your posts.

<yawn>
Of course, you cherry pick and ignore the posts where I unequivocally condemn Hamas as terrorists and that they should be eradicated. This is to be expected from one who is not open to debate and information illuminating both side of the conflict.

You stick with your "Israel good, Arabs bad" narrative if it comforts you.

Meanwhile, back in the real world ...

---------- Post added at 17:51 ---------- Previous post was at 17:32 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162475)
Why? It’s Hamas and Hezbollah, encouraged and supported by Iran, that are the cause of this problem and getting in the way of a peaceful resolution
This is such an uninformed post. Both sides are obstacles to a peaceful two state resolution:

- the Hamas death cult, together with it's Islamist peers (Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, etc.) all demand the end of the Jewish nation and it's citizens. I think that is pretty clear.

- what is not that well known, mainly due to the loud voices screaming "Anti-Semitism!" when Israel is criticised, is that the governing party Likud has, as part of its charter, a rejection of an Arab state in the area:

Israel’s policy on statehood merits the same scrutiny as Hamas gets

Quote:
Likud’s 1977 founding document reveals its position that:

… between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

Of course, this was written in 1977 – but critics of Hamas don’t afford it this concession vis-a-vis its 1988 charter. While this Likud statement doesn’t possess the racist sentiments of the Hamas charter, the practical implications denying the possibility of two states co-existing are more or less the same.

Lest we think that the Likud’s 1977 position is anachronistic, its 1999 electoral platform reiterates that:

The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.

Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem.

The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

This platform has never been rescinded. Current Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu was also exposed in a 2001 video bragging that he “stopped the Oslo Accords” after receiving US guarantees that Israel would not be required to withdraw from “specified military locations” – chosen by himself, including the whole of the Jordan Valley/eastern border of the West Bank – in exchange for signing the 1997 Hebron Agreement.

And then wasn’t it the case that the Likud split over Sharon’s proposal to withdraw from the Gaza Strip in 2005? Didn’t Sharon form a new “centrist” party, Kadima, committed to “disengagement” (that is, the unilateral demarcation of permanent borders) with Palestinians? However, far from being a move towards a just peace, Dov Weiglass, then a senior aide to Sharon, candidly explained that:

The disengagement is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians. And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda.
- although this was 2014:

Quote:
The Israeli public in light of a recent poll showing that 74% of Israelis are opposed to the creation of a Palestinian state.
The polling here is very muddy but it clearly shows the a sizeable minority of Israelis support Likud's hard line policies esp. the illegal colonisation of the West Bank.

jfman 21-10-2023 18:37
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Pierre doesn’t quite have an Israel good/Arabs bad position - his point mainly relates to non-state actors use of force and that it’s not justified. I’m sure he sincerely holds that position anywhere in the world.

Pierre 21-10-2023 18:47
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36162507)
Of course, you cherry pick and ignore the posts where I unequivocally condemn Hamas as terrorists and that they should be eradicated. This is to be expected from one who is not open to debate and information illuminating both side of the conflict.
Yeah, you’re very careful….but

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36162440)
Those who pay lip service about Hamas' atrocities but then shift the blame onto Israel or enthusiastically criticise Israel for its behaviour.

Quote:
You stick with your "Israel good, Arabs bad" narrative if it comforts you.
Interesting that you throw that at me, which although simplistic, in this instance is fairly accurate.

Is it because you believe the exact opposite? I think I know the answer.

Quote:
Meanwhile, back in the real world

- what is not that well known, mainly due to the loud voices screaming "Anti-Semitism!" when Israel is criticised, is that the governing party Likud has, as part of its charter, a rejection of an Arab state in the area:

Israel’s policy on statehood merits the same scrutiny as Hamas gets
So essentially neither Hamas or Israel want a two state solution, who’ of thought it.

By the way, I don’t think the author of article you posted is entirely objective.

He also authored this report

https://www.academia.edu/31751816/Is...he_Middle_East

In which he pulls some corkers

Quote:
Comment: Israel claims to be the only democracy in the region, but its institutional racism demonstrates the state's tangential grasp on reality

Quote:
given that Israel's founding entailed the ethnic cleansing of more than 750,000 Palestinian Arabs

Quote:
Even if we ignore Israel's ongoing excesses in "mowing the lawn" in the Gaza Strip - that is, the periodic and deliberate use of disproportionate force aimed at flattening everything in sight
That’s just from the first three paragraphs, from a 4 page anti-Israel diatribe. Apt .

Sephiroth 21-10-2023 18:49
Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Let's turn this on its head. Hamas has made an incursion into Israel and has brutally murdered (say) 1500 Israelis and abducted (say) 200.

What should Israel's next move have been?

Paul 21-10-2023 18:54
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Again I open this topic and am greeted by three+ pages of members taking pops at each other and/or just being daft, and/or acting like children.

FOUR members have been removed from the topic for a day, if this keeps up there will be more, and for longer. Sheesh.

Pierre 21-10-2023 20:33
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162512)
Pierre doesn’t quite have an Israel good/Arabs bad position - his point mainly relates to non-state actors use of force and that it’s not justified. I’m sure he sincerely holds that position anywhere in the world.
I do. I know I said that observation was “fairly accurate”, and it is insofar as Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS and all the other Jihadists.

Pierre 22-10-2023 17:03
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Looking at the various “pro-Palestine” protests in London and across everywhere. There were certainly pro-Hamas, pro-jihad and anti-Jew, elements and they didn’t seem to be a tiny minority. But I wasn’t there so I could be wrong.

But they didn’t appear to be policed very well, which just emboldens the factions I listed. It gives the message that it’s ok to be anti-Semitic without recourse.

Fearful and dangerous times to be a Jew in the U.K.

Sephiroth 22-10-2023 19:31
Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The reported 100,000 demonstrators in London number more than the standing British Army. Be warned, it's coming. They don't do multi-culturalism.

EDIT: Double post removed.

Hugh 22-10-2023 20:47
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36162549)

The reported 100,000 demonstrators in London number more than the standing British Army. Be warned, it's coming. They don't do multi-culturalism.

EDIT: Double post removed.
Thought we were about due for a "Great Replacement Theory" post from you...

Funnily enough, I am in North Cyprus at the moment, and "they" do multi-culturalism very well here...

Sephiroth 22-10-2023 20:51
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36162553)
Thought we were about due for a "Great Replacement Theory" post from you...

Funnily enough, I am in North Cyprus at the moment, and "they" do multi-culturalism very well here...
Not the same "they".

Pierre 22-10-2023 21:07
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36162553)
Funnily enough, I am in North Cyprus at the moment, and "they" do multi-culturalism very well here...
Apart from the whole Turkish / Greek issue and why the island is split into two.


Otherwise, just ace.

Hugh 22-10-2023 21:25
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36162556)
Apart from the whole Turkish / Greek issue and why the island is split into two.


Otherwise, just ace.
Since my sister and family were Casevaced from Famagusta because of the invasion, and I did detachments on Troodos a couple of times in the late 70s/early 80s, and I have been coming here every year (except 2020 & 2021) since 2007, I'm pretty au fait with the political situation here...

The comment was in regards to Seph's dog-whistle...

Pierre 22-10-2023 21:56
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36162560)
Since my sister and family were Casevaced from Famagusta because of the invasion, and I did detachments on Troodos a couple of times in the late 70s/early 80s, and I have been coming here every year (except 2020 & 2021) since 2007, I'm pretty au fait with the political situation here...

The comment was in regards to Seph's dog-whistle...
I’m obviously not as keyed into it as you.

But to claim that "they" do multi-culturalism very well here... on an Island that is literally politically split into two.

A poor example, that’s all.

1andrew1 22-10-2023 23:44
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Thirsty families in Gaza eke out trickle of water

Most supplies cut off by Israeli siege, leading to disease and warnings that water is about to run out

Securing water has become a huge challenge for Palestinian families in the territory, home to 2.3mn people, where the temperature on Sunday was 31 degrees. People are being forced to drink dirty water, according to UN agencies, which have reported cases of diseases spread by contaminated water being drunk and poor sanitary conditions.

Juliette Touma, spokesperson for UNRWA, the UN’s agency for Palestinian relief, said that across Gaza “people have either no water at all or limited supplies”. Even in UNRWA shelters, drinking water was scarce, she added.

Israel has linked the siege to the more than 200 hostages taken by Hamas into Gaza, two of whom were freed this week. “No electrical switch will be turned on, no water hydrant will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli hostages are returned home,” Israel’s energy minister Israel Katz said on social media on October 12.

The strip normally receives fresh water from a mixture of wells, a pipeline from Israel and desalination plants on the Mediterranean. However, fuel and power shortages have hit the plants and water pumping facilities, aid agencies say.

Israel is allowing only a restricted and insufficient water supply through its pipeline to southern Gaza, UN officials say, for about three hours a day.

UNRWA has warned that worse is to come. In three days the organisation “will run out of fuel, critical for our humanitarian response across the Gaza Strip,” it said on Sunday.

“Without fuel, there will be no water, no functioning hospitals and bakeries. No fuel will further strangle the children, women and people of Gaza.”
https://www.ft.com/content/22e939a4-...0-79dd08901f98

Mr K 23-10-2023 08:25
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Cutting off the water supply is really hitting those terrorists isn't it?
Or is just trying to kill off the majority innocent civilian population?
If it was any other country doing this we'd be calling it out for what it is, and taking some action, not just words.

jfman 23-10-2023 08:38
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Fearful and dangerous times to be a Palestinian in Palestine.

Pierre 23-10-2023 08:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Fearful and dangerous times to be a Jew in Israel.

However,

Not fearful and dangerous times to be a Palestinian in the UK........

jfman 23-10-2023 09:09
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
I’d imagine right now the Israelis are safer than they’ve ever been in Israel. Nothing will be crossing the border for quite some time and the Iron Dome does what it does

1andrew1 23-10-2023 10:30
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162573)
I’d imagine right now the Israelis are safer than they’ve ever been in Israel. Nothing will be crossing the border for quite some time and the Iron Dome does what it does
Christian, Jew or Muslim...it is safer living in Israel than Gaza.

tweetiepooh 23-10-2023 10:36
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Groups like Hamas aren't simple fixed targets. It isn't like this building is Hamas and is a viable target and the others aren't. They will move around, attack from one place, then skulk away and repeat. Israel can't simply do nothing but what can they do? Sending in troops won't work, it's not a friendly situation with locals welcoming liberating armies come to rid them of the terror groups.


The problem is not helped by extreme Israeli groups who want to claim more land for Israel and are not really sympathetic to the Palestinians.



---


As a Christian I know that the real solution is the "Prince of Peace" changing hearts not politics or military might, though a change in politics would be required. I also know that there is an Enemy who seeks to increase the hatred and violence.

Pierre 23-10-2023 10:37
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36162577)
Christian, Jew or Muslim...it is safer living in Israel than Gaza.
Don't think you'll find many, if any, Jews or Christians (maybe the odd Coptic) living in Gaza or any Arab/Muslim state nearby.

I don't know why, it's a very free and tolerant region.

jfman 23-10-2023 10:43
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36162580)
Don't think you'll find many, if any, Jews or Christians (maybe the odd Coptic) living in Gaza or any Arab/Muslim state nearby.

I don't know why, it's a very free and tolerant region.
There’s certainly enough for Anglican and Orthodox churches. Only discovered this recently when Israel bombed them.

Sephiroth 23-10-2023 11:15
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36162569)
Cutting off the water supply is really hitting those terrorists isn't it?
Or is just trying to kill off the majority innocent civilian population?
If it was any other country doing this we'd be calling it out for what it is, and taking some action, not just words.
To you and others who focus on Gaza:

Following the atrocities committed by Hamas in Israel, what should Israel have done? How should Israel have reacted.

You lot avoid that opinion.

1andrew1 23-10-2023 11:23
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36162580)
Don't think you'll find many, if any, Jews or Christians (maybe the odd Coptic) living in Gaza or any Arab/Muslim state nearby.

I don't know why, it's a very free and tolerant region.
There's Christians and churches. And it's not like you can just get on a plane out of the country!

jfman 23-10-2023 11:37
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36162585)
To you and others who focus on Gaza:

Following the atrocities committed by Hamas in Israel, what should Israel have done? How should Israel have reacted.

You lot avoid that opinion.
I made a very clear post on just this in my discussion with Pierre around the word “proportionate”.

There’s a massive scale at which Israel could have placed itself on in terms of punitive actions towards Hamas that could have minimised civilian casualties.

It’s not immediately clear that the current course of action, including a ground offensive, would actually make Israel any safer in the longer term.

TheDaddy 23-10-2023 12:17
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36162585)
To you and others who focus on Gaza:

Following the atrocities committed by Hamas in Israel, what should Israel have done? How should Israel have reacted.

You lot avoid that opinion.
I'd suggest doing something that would actually change the status quo rather than prolonging it but then I don't believe the government there actually want peace and would go further and say a certain amount of atrocities are acceptable to them to maintain the current situation as make no mistake it's not Hamas Netanyahu fears, it's a two state solution he's scared of most

Pierre 23-10-2023 12:25
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36162590)
make no mistake it's not Hamas Netanyahu fears, it's a two state solution he's scared of most
and rightly so.

1andrew1 23-10-2023 12:45
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36162592)
and rightly so.
The one-state solution clearly hasn't worked so why not try something different?

Chris 23-10-2023 13:00
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36162595)
The one-state solution clearly hasn't worked so why not try something different?
Well for a start Hamas doesn’t want a two-state solution. That slogan its cheerleaders and fellow travellers like chanting in nice safe places like London, you know, “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” - that isn’t a clarion call for a two-state solution. It’s a call for Israel to be, as the Iranians less delicately put it, “wiped from the map”.

The Arabs in 1948 didn’t want a two-state solution either. They rejected the UN proposal even as Israel accepted it (though I caveat that observation by noting their reasons for doing so were not entirely unreasonable). Israel’s Arab neighbours didn’t want one in 1967 or 1973 either. And both of those conflicts have demonstrated to Israelis of all political persuasions that their territory is vulnerable, perhaps indefensible, on its pre 1967 borders. For all it is inflammatory and illegal by international law, their occupation and settlement of the West Bank has a clear internal logic.

Neither side wants a two-state solution is the fact nobody wants to admit out loud. Hamas and others believe that sooner or later their paymasters will be powerful enough to help them destroy Israel. Israel believes time is on its side, even if it takes another 100 years they will demographically neutralise and effectively absorb the West Bank. Gaza, which they have no particular interest in, actually has a lucrative potential future as a city state; they hope that sooner or later its inhabitants will see that and start building for it. Israel believes, as Golda Meir put it, that this can happen, when the day come that they “love their children more than they hate us.”

jfman 23-10-2023 13:43
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
“Demographically neutralise” is a magnificent euphemism for long term genocide.

TheDaddy 23-10-2023 13:50
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36162596)
Well for a start Hamas doesn’t want a two-state solution. That slogan its cheerleaders and fellow travellers like chanting in nice safe places like London, you know, “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” - that isn’t a clarion call for a two-state solution. It’s a call for Israel to be, as the Iranians less delicately put it, “wiped from the map”.

The Arabs in 1948 didn’t want a two-state solution either. They rejected the UN proposal even as Israel accepted it (though I caveat that observation by noting their reasons for doing so were not entirely unreasonable). Israel’s Arab neighbours didn’t want one in 1967 or 1973 either. And both of those conflicts have demonstrated to Israelis of all political persuasions that their territory is vulnerable, perhaps indefensible, on its pre 1967 borders. For all it is inflammatory and illegal by international law, their occupation and settlement of the West Bank has a clear internal logic.

Neither side wants a two-state solution is the fact nobody wants to admit out loud. Hamas and others believe that sooner or later their paymasters will be powerful enough to help them destroy Israel. Israel believes time is on its side, even if it takes another 100 years they will demographically neutralise and effectively absorb the West Bank. Gaza, which they have no particular interest in, actually has a lucrative potential future as a city state; they hope that sooner or later its inhabitants will see that and start building for it. Israel believes, as Golda Meir put it, that this can happen, when the day come that they “love their children more than they hate us.”
The problem with their plan is there is no viable alternative to Abbas, who must be close to 90, by allowing Fatah to decay with no succession plan in place they risk hamas filling the west bank void too and I doubt Aloul is the man to stop it

Chris 23-10-2023 14:29
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36162599)
The problem with their plan is there is no viable alternative to Abbas, who must be close to 90, by allowing Fatah to decay with no succession plan in place they risk hamas filling the west bank void too and I doubt Aloul is the man to stop it
There is a risk there but Israel isn’t shut out of the West Bank in the same way as it is in Gaza. I suspect they think they can ramp up their security presence there incrementally as required in order to keep a lid on it.

---------- Post added at 14:29 ---------- Previous post was at 14:25 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162598)
“Demographically neutralise” is a magnificent euphemism for long term genocide.
A bit like calling people who behead babies and rape dead women ‘militants’ isn’t it.

jfman 23-10-2023 14:52
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
I’m not doing the mode of death of children thing all over again, but the Israeli military isn’t a shining light on the child death front. Or rape for that matter.

Nobody holds the moral high ground whether branded a “militant” or a “soldier”.

Sephiroth 23-10-2023 14:53
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36162590)
I'd suggest doing something that would actually change the status quo rather than prolonging it but then I don't believe the government there actually want peace and would go further and say a certain amount of atrocities are acceptable to them to maintain the current situation as make no mistake it's not Hamas Netanyahu fears, it's a two state solution he's scared of most

So Hamas goes in, murders and abducts hundreds of Israelis, chops off babies' heads and you come out with the meaningless words "I'd suggest doing something that would actually change the status quo".

That's what we would have liked to see before all this happened (and Israel itself is now too divided to get this done quickly). I ask again, what should Israel's reaction have been to Hamas's barbaric attack?

People are dodging that question. I wonder why??

TheDaddy 23-10-2023 15:36
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36162604)

So Hamas goes in, murders and abducts hundreds of Israelis, chops off babies' heads and you come out with the meaningless words "I'd suggest doing something that would actually change the status quo".

That's what we would have liked to see before all this happened (and Israel itself is now too divided to get this done quickly). I ask again, what should Israel's reaction have been to Hamas's barbaric attack?

People are dodging that question. I wonder why??
I've not dodged any questions, in fact I've answered this one several times but people like you and old boy don't want actual solutions you just want to shout WHAT SHOULD THEY DO THEN to justify war crimes, so for the third time:

I would go after Hamas leadership currently living like kings in Doha rather than like rats in a tunnel in Gaza

I'd go after their money, find those secret accounts and switch them off

I'd cut hamas off from the aid chain, Palestinians need to know it's not Hamas feeding them, in fact they're raking millions of the top for themselves before the people see a penny, let that be known, it's what screwed Fatah after Arafat died after all, them driving around in limos whilst people ate dirt

I'd empower Fatah to actually oppose Hamas in the West Bank to start with

I'd ensure there is a strong leader in line to replace Abbas when the inevitable happens

These things would break the revenge cycle but the leadership of either side isn't interested in that as it's not them who suffer in maintaining the status quo

Pierre 23-10-2023 15:49
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162603)
Nobody holds the moral high ground whether branded a “militant” or a “soldier”.
I think, as in other many conflicts, there will be deaths on either side and some potentially avoidable.

But if you stand a Hamas Terrorist and an IDF soldier and ask me who in this round of the 2000yr conflict holds the moral high ground. It is without question the IDF soldier.

Hamas are a pure evil terrorist jihadi death cult, that take pleasure in killing and torturing and who have no regard for the value of human life whatsoever, especially their own.

and you can say there is no difference to killing a baby by decapitating it with a machete or by an airstrike. The result is the same....a dead baby. But I reject those kind of arguments 100% There is no moral equivalence between the actions of Hamas and the IDF.

jfman 23-10-2023 15:57
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36162617)
I think, as in other many conflicts, there will be deaths on either side and some potentially avoidable.

But if you stand a Hamas Terrorist and an IDF soldier and ask me who in this round of the 2000yr conflict holds the moral high ground. It is without question the IDF soldier.

Hamas are a pure evil terrorist jihadi death cult, that take pleasure in killing and torturing and who have no regard for the value of human life whatsoever, especially their own.

and you can say there is no difference to killing a baby by decapitating it with a machete or by an airstrike. The result is the same....a dead baby. But I reject those kind of arguments 100% There is no moral equivalence between the actions of Hamas and the IDF.
I’m not sure the thousands who have died under Israeli bombardment would feel the same about the distinction to be honest. At all levels, throughout the conflict spanning decades, Palestinian civilian deaths have massively outnumbered Israeli ones. Others have - rightly - pointed to the rationale for Israelis to seek vengeance. The most vocal proponents of this are in the Israeli government as it embarks upon collective punishment.

It’s a double standard to not expect Palestinians to do the same, through whatever vehicles become available to do so. Which is why ultimately this will all be futile.

It’s a race to the bottom for both.

Sephiroth 23-10-2023 18:47
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36162611)
I've not dodged any questions, in fact I've answered this one several times but people like you and old boy don't want actual solutions you just want to shout WHAT SHOULD THEY DO THEN to justify war crimes, so for the third time:

I would go after Hamas leadership currently living like kings in Doha rather than like rats in a tunnel in Gaza

I'd go after their money, find those secret accounts and switch them off

I'd cut hamas off from the aid chain, Palestinians need to know it's not Hamas feeding them, in fact they're raking millions of the top for themselves before the people see a penny, let that be known, it's what screwed Fatah after Arafat died after all, them driving around in limos whilst people ate dirt

I'd empower Fatah to actually oppose Hamas in the West Bank to start with

I'd ensure there is a strong leader in line to replace Abbas when the inevitable happens

These things would break the revenge cycle but the leadership of either side isn't interested in that as it's not them who suffer in maintaining the status quo

At last. An attempt at answering the question: What should Israel's reaction have been to Hamas's barbaric attack?

Quote:
I would go after Hamas leadership currently living like kings in Doha rather than like rats in a tunnel in Gaza
So you're arguing for assassination by Israel in a foreign country. Might that set the wider conflagration off?

Quote:
I'd go after their money, find those secret accounts and switch them off
Sure - right thing to do in principle. But if those accounts are in Doha with an Arab bank, what then?

Quote:
I'd cut Hamas off from the aid chain, Palestinians need to know it's not Hamas feeding them, in fact they're raking millions of the top for themselves before the people see a penny, let that be known, it's what screwed Fatah after Arafat died after all, them driving around in limos whilst people ate dirt
Nice in theory. But won't the Palestinians just call it "western propaganda"? Is your suggestion realistic?

Quote:
I'd empower Fatah to actually oppose Hamas in the West Bank to start with
Interesting. Does Fatah have the appetite or the means to make that opposition work? Or is Israel so much the enemy that Fatah will not take up your suggestion?

Quote:
I'd ensure there is a strong leader in line to replace Abbas when the inevitable happens
Isn't that pie-in-the sky? Who would appoint that leader? Why isn't there a better leader of Fatah now?

I do hope that others who have been avoiding an answer to my question make an attempt.

OLD BOY 23-10-2023 18:57
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36162572)
Fearful and dangerous times to be a Jew in Israel.

However,

Not fearful and dangerous times to be a Palestinian in the UK........
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36162617)
I think, as in other many conflicts, there will be deaths on either side and some potentially avoidable.

But if you stand a Hamas Terrorist and an IDF soldier and ask me who in this round of the 2000yr conflict holds the moral high ground. It is without question the IDF soldier.

Hamas are a pure evil terrorist jihadi death cult, that take pleasure in killing and torturing and who have no regard for the value of human life whatsoever, especially their own.

and you can say there is no difference to killing a baby by decapitating it with a machete or by an airstrike. The result is the same....a dead baby. But I reject those kind of arguments 100% There is no moral equivalence between the actions of Hamas and the IDF.
Spot on, Pierre. Civilians become casualties in any war, Be it Ukraine, Syria, Yemen or Palestine. The complication in some wars such as in Palestine, is that the fighters are embedded within the population, and in this case, are quite blatantly, and by design, holding them as human shields.

In other wars, such as Ukraine, the likes of the aggressor (Russia in this case) deliberately aim their rockets at civilian targets such as schools and hospitals where they know the most civilians would be killed in one go. We don’t see so much hand-wringing there, do we?

War is horrible and bloody. We should always try to find a solution to avoid it. However in this case, we have one party who has actually started a war to avoid peace talks. Hamas is ruthless and bloody, and I am afraid Israel is doing all it can now to eliminate this festering sore.

jfman 23-10-2023 19:07
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162636)
Spot on, Pierre. Civilians become casualties in any war, Be it Ukraine, Syria, Yemen or Palestine. The complication in some wars such as in Palestine, is that the fighters are embedded within the population, and in this case, are quite blatantly, and by design, holding them as human shields.

In other wars, such as Ukraine, the likes of the aggressor (Russia in this case) deliberately aim their rockets at civilian targets such as schools and hospitals where they know the most civilians would be killed in one go. We don’t see so much hand-wringing there, do we?

War is horrible and bloody. We should always try to find a solution to avoid it. However in this case, we have one party who has actually started a war to avoid peace talks. Hamas is ruthless and bloody, and I am afraid Israel is doing all it can now to eliminate this festering sore.
You aren't 'afraid' anything - your callous dismissal of Palestinian civilian life - specifically families remains clear. Regardless what whatever spin you place those were your own words.

Had you actually believed Israel were doing "all it can" we'd not have went through the 2006 Palestinian election making the Palestinian civilians party to terrorist acts or your (incorrect) belief that invoking self-defence absolves Israel of any responsibility as it carries on it's war.

If more Israeli civilians die - and I hope they don't - you absolutely will not chalk them up as "casualties in any war" and shrug.

1andrew1 23-10-2023 19:08
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Interesting observation from Robert Peston.
Quote:
The Commons is now much more divided on the crisis in Israel and Gaza than it was a few days ago.

[Stephen] Flynn, SNP leader in the Commons, accuses Israël of illegal collective punishment of Palestinians.

Labour’s Zarah Sultana accuses Israel of war crimes.

Jess Philips, a front bencher, calls on Sunak with anger to call out Israel if it commits war crimes.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1716474297907065134

jfman 23-10-2023 19:14
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36162639)
Interesting observation from Robert Peston.

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1716474297907065134
Essentially, they know which way public opinion - which wasn't particularly favourable to Israel anyway - is going. The longer we have Israeli bombardment of the civilian population and starvation in refugee camps beamed into our eyeballs it will only get worse.

The inability to say what the average person can see with his or her own eyes is an awful look for any politician. If Israel plan to carry on for two, three, four months the situation is untenable for Sunak and Starmer to hide behind Israel's right to 'self-defence'. The only question is who breaks first and when.

Pierre 23-10-2023 20:28
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162641)
Essentially, they know which way public opinion - which wasn't particularly favourable to Israel anyway
Several hundred people in London celebrating Jihadis, doesn’t count as “public opinion”

The MSM probably won’t report all of what was shown.

But if this “compilation video” was shown prime time on BBC1……….you may be surprised at which way public opinion went.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...Nctq_brkE2FpSV

jfman 23-10-2023 20:39
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36162646)
Several hundred people in London celebrating Jihadis, doesn’t count as “public opinion”

The MSM probably won’t report all of what was shown.

But if this “compilation video” was shown prime time on BBC1……….you may be surprised at which way public opinion went.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/...Nctq_brkE2FpSV
I don’t think anyone is in denial about the actions of Hamas. Whether they justify the systematic slaughter of thousands, displacement of hundreds of thousands, of Palestinians who had nothing to do with it is the question.

I’m sure the Palestinians could equally capture the hearts and minds of the population with the charred remains of children blown apart in Israeli air strikes. It’s very much not a one way street when the average person would, somewhat reasonably, expect a 21st century military to behave slightly better than your average terrorist group.

Most people would view the conflict as a consequence of events predating two weeks ago on Saturday.

I’m very much sceptical that there’s a mainstream media effort to downplay the events - every time I switch on the news it is the life story of one hostage or another. I guess it’d be hard to personalise each Palestinian story given the ruthless efficiency with which Israel are creating more of them.

Sephiroth 23-10-2023 20:43
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Even though jfman slips in an occasional sort of criticism of Hamas, his posts are seriously tilted towards the Palestinians.

Chris 23-10-2023 20:49
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162649)
I don’t think anyone is in denial about the actions of Hamas. Whether they justify the systematic slaughter of thousands, displacement of hundreds of thousands, of Palestinians who had nothing to do with it is the question.

I’m sure the Palestinians could equally capture the hearts and minds of the population with the charred remains of children blown apart in Israeli air strikes. It’s very much not a one way street when the average person would, somewhat reasonably, expect a 21st century military to behave slightly better than your average terrorist group.

Most people would view the conflict as a consequence of events predating two weeks ago on Saturday.
While I firmly believe - and have repeatedly stated - that the ‘who’s to blame for what’ question is impossibly complex to answer given the causal link from one event to another, stretching back more than 150 years …

I absolutely reject your continued attempts to draw actual or moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas’ actions over the past fortnight. Sure there’s room to debate what degree of military response is warranted on Israel’s part, but that’s because they’re operating a uniformed army with a chain of command and a plan of action that quite obviously shows awareness of international legal obligations as well as intense political pressure from allies. Their response is considered and calibrated. Argue they got the balance wrong by all means, but suggestions that their actions amount to the equivalent of Hamas are profoundly un-serious.

Hamas, to the extent it had a plan, entered Israel with the intention of behaving in as barbaric a way as possible, to the greatest extent possible. Beheading, torture, rape, execution of parents in front of children; execution of children in front of parents.

The behaviour of Israel in Gaza this week *is*not*the*same* as the behaviour of Hamas in Israel last week. The fact that those killed in Gaza might not see it that way is, tragically, besides the point. There is simply no comparison between no-holds-barred barbarism and calculated military action.

Pierre 23-10-2023 21:01
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36162651)
Even though jfman slips in an occasional sort of criticism of Hamas, his posts are seriously tilted towards the Palestinians.
He’s perfectly entitled to take that position.

At least he’s straight in his views, unlike some others.

jfman 23-10-2023 21:04
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36162653)
While I firmly believe - and have repeatedly stated - that the ‘who’s to blame for what’ question is impossibly complex to answer given the causal link from one event to another, stretching back more than 150 years …

I absolutely reject your continued attempts to draw actual or moral equivalence between Israel and Hamas’ actions over the past fortnight. Sure there’s room to debate what degree of military response is warranted on Israel’s part, but that’s because they’re operating a uniformed army with a chain of command and a plan of action that quite obviously shows awareness of international legal obligations as well as intense political pressure from allies. Their response is considered and calibrated. Argue they got the balance wrong by all means, but suggestions that their actions amount to the equivalent of Hamas are profoundly un-serious.

Hamas, to the extent it had a plan, entered Israel with the intention of behaving in as barbaric a way as possible, to the greatest extent possible. Beheading, torture, rape, execution of parents in front of children; execution of children in front of parents.

The behaviour of Israel in Gaza this week *is*not*the*same* as the behaviour of Hamas in Israel last week. The fact that those killed in Gaza might not see it that way is, tragically, besides the point. There is simply no comparison between no-holds-barred barbarism and calculated military action.
It’s this bit that actually makes it worse.

A nation state with all the resources it has to secure it’s borders and target Hamas and other terror groups chooses to displace over a million people, levelling huge swathes of Gaza, taking some of the poorest people in the world and destroying what little they have. Considered and calculated.

And, from the somewhat perverse viewpoints of some, Palestinians should be grateful for this work towards being “demographically neutralised”.

How people in Gaza feel - and how they are treated - is absolutely the point.

Chris 23-10-2023 21:34
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36162657)
It’s this bit that actually makes it worse.

A nation state with all the resources it has to secure it’s borders and target Hamas and other terror groups chooses to displace over a million people, levelling huge swathes of Gaza, taking some of the poorest people in the world and destroying what little they have. Considered and calculated.

And, from the somewhat perverse viewpoints of some, Palestinians should be grateful for this work towards being “demographically neutralised”.

How people in Gaza feel - and how they are treated - is absolutely the point.
I don’t think Gazans owe any more thanks to Israel than the residents of northwestern Germany owed the RAF thanks for over-flying them on their way to Berlin. War is horrific and nobody should be thankful to be involved in it or grateful to their enemy if they narrowly escape it. That said, I’m not at all convinced *most* posters in this discussion have said anything warranting the caricature you’ve posited here.

OLD BOY 23-10-2023 23:31
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36162488)

The phrase ‘suck it up’ will deservedly haunt you on this forum for quite some time.


.
OK, just to clear this up, it seems that the phrase which has proved controversial to some has different meanings (just like ‘jihad’ apparently).

My meaning was ‘learn from it’ and that’s exactly what all those who think it’s a great idea to vote for a terrorist organisation should ponder.

I did not mean that phrase as insulting, although I get why some did.

TheDaddy 24-10-2023 01:49
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36162633)
So you're arguing for assassination by Israel in a foreign country. Might that set the wider conflagration off?
No I'm not, going after them doesn't have to mean kill them, it means make their lives hard, get them deported, maybe find a way to jail them

Quote:
Sure - right thing to do in principle. But if those accounts are in Doha with an Arab bank, what then?
Sanction the bank, there's a fair few oligarchs like Mikhail Friedman who'll testify how easy it is to turn off the financial taps

Quote:
Nice in theory. But won't the Palestinians just call it "western propaganda"? Is your suggestion realistic?
They didn't when Arafat died, they knew Fatah was corrupt just by looking at what cars they drove past in whilst the majority had nothing and were sitting in the dust the fancy cars threw up

Quote:
Interesting. Does Fatah have the appetite or the means to make that opposition work? Or is Israel so much the enemy that Fatah will not take up your suggestion?
They better have the appetite or else things will get ugly on the west bank soon enough and Israel aren't stupid they know Fatah had the same destruction of Israel type charter and now they don't, even going as far as legitimising Israels right to exist by recognising their right to govern in certain areas, if they're not supported hamas will take over just like they did in Gaza

Quote:
Isn't that pie-in-the sky? Who would appoint that leader? Why isn't there a better leader of Fatah now?
Abbas isn't great, he's embezzling knew no bounds early in his tenure but he's been there a long time and that in itself is stability for an organisation in disarray, his and Fatahs big problem is he's 87, he can't have that long left, actually decay might have been a better word than disarray given how old most of the leadership is. A guy called Mahmud Aloul is heir apparent and it's doubtful he's up to it

---------- Post added at 01:49 ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36162662)
OK, just to clear this up, it seems that the phrase which has proved controversial to some has different meanings (just like ‘jihad’ apparently).

My meaning was ‘learn from it’ and that’s exactly what all those who think it’s a great idea to vote for a terrorist organisation should ponder.

I did not mean that phrase as insulting, although I get why some did.
Oh well, suck it up

Sephiroth 24-10-2023 08:57
Re: Hamas Israel War
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36162663)
No I'm not, going after them doesn't have to mean kill them, it means make their lives hard, get them deported, maybe find a way to jail them



Sanction the bank, there's a fair few oligarchs like Mikhail Friedman who'll testify how easy it is to turn off the financial taps



They didn't when Arafat died, they knew Fatah was corrupt just by looking at what cars they drove past in whilst the majority had nothing and were sitting in the dust the fancy cars threw up



They better have the appetite or else things will get ugly on the west bank soon enough and Israel aren't stupid they know Fatah had the same destruction of Israel type charter and now they don't, even going as far as legitimising Israels right to exist by recognising their right to govern in certain areas, if they're not supported hamas will take over just like they did in Gaza



Abbas isn't great, he's embezzling knew no bounds early in his tenure but he's been there a long time and that in itself is stability for an organisation in disarray, his and Fatahs big problem is he's 87, he can't have that long left, actually decay might have been a better word than disarray given how old most of the leadership is. A guy called Mahmud Aloul is heir apparent and it's doubtful he's up to it

---------- Post added at 01:49 ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 ----------



Oh well, suck it up


So there you have it: pie in the sky from The Daddy.



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