Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yes but there are also papers with are venomously pro-Brexit and anti-Labour. It's the nature of a free press. But, for the most part, these are papers who employ actual journalists and break stories. The Guardian exposed the Snowden files, The Telegraph exposed MPs expenses and so on. They may be biased but there is still a journalistic principle at their core.

'Alternative' media is just hyper-partisan blogs written by one to a few people who don't do original reporting. They just campaign for their side.

The MSM have, at least in the past, had to co-exist with the other players as well. They couldn't go totally off-base and hence any major government scandal would cause the government to get flak from all the papers. The Sun supports the Tories but has gone after them, The Guardian went after the Labour government too.

Counter-intuitively the internet has narrowed the bubble people can live in. They can now get their news exposure customised to only these alternative news sources that let them live in the world they prefer. Corbyn can say on the BBC he never met with the IRA and it's 'debunked' by these news sources who attack Andrew Neil for being a stooge of the neoliberal lying MSM even when there are literally pictures of Corbyn meeting the IRA.

People are replacing the old MSM with hyper-partisan blogs/social media that well them what they want to hear, only link to sources with corroborate that, and dismiss everyone else as evil, scheming, liars.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

During the last election a teacher told his/her students not to talk to one of their peers because his father is Tory MP Bob Stewart.

https://order-order.com/2017/09/14/b...#disqus_thread

If we're going to be constantly reminded how wonderful the teaching profession is I hope that this sad individual will be appropriately disciplined. There should be no room inside our schools for bully-boy teachers who put their politics ahead of their students. Appalling behaviour from a so called professional!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

:tu:

I am not sure if it's always been like this but politics seems to be getting more divisive, more dehumanising and more angry. The only way someone can treat someone else like this is if they've already written them off as a human being or if they don't have any empathy.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Politics has always been like that in my memory whether it be the likes of the NF/BNP or **** like Militant Tendency and their current equivalents. The internet just helps the extremists peddle their hatred and nastiness further afield.

For a so called teacher to do this to a pupil is quite outrageous and I hope one of the usual 'spokespersons' we're usually treated to when they have a gripe about something is going be to bold enough to come out and condemn this appalling behaviour. I have a sneaky feeling they won't however and if I'm right that'll say a lot about them and how far they're prepared to go in order to get what they want.

The routine silence and blind eye turning from the rose tinted brigade about this sort of thing is as ironic as it is telling about what they consider to be acceptable behaviour and not. It's only a nasty Tory after all isn't it eh and they and their families are fair game...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Sounds like you don't much like teachers then :rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Really? Tell that to my eldest son. He is one and I'm very proud of him. Unlike the 'teacher' who victimised the MP's child he'd never resort to such abuse but I note you have nothing to say about that.

Sorry to burst your little bubble. :rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Teachers are to be respected but it doesn't mean the odd bad apple doesn't get though, of course they do as they do with any other profession.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Your words (in bold) seemed to convey a view that teachers get too much good press. And what "little bubble" would that be ?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

No they don't they convey that we get a lot of good press about teachers doing a hard job and that ought to include rooting out the sort of 'teacher' who'd resort to bullying a pupil which is at the top of the list when it comes to professional ethics. I asked where the profession's condemnation of this is and I'm still waiting. FYI my son thinks it's appalling.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Be patient dear. Clearly if true then that behaviour is to be deplored. I know a lot of teachers and none would ever behave like that.
But how am I supposed to know what the professions spokespeople are thinking ?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

So do I which is why the professional body ought to make that clear and condemn what this one did. Teachers are supposed to set an example irrespective of their politics. This one didn't so what's the problem with the unions saying so?

I'll be patient dear, let's see how long it is before this rogue teacher is brought to book shall we. I'd suggest that if it hadn't been a 'fair game Tory' target that clarity would have come a lot quicker.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

We really don't know if it is true, he's got the story second hand from his son. Kids can exaggerate for dramatic effect, so can politicians. Dragging your son into a political debate rather than raising it with the school isn't the way to get to the bottom of it.
Equally unacceptable is the level of abuse Diane Abbott has been subject to. People might not like her politics or the way she looks, but the level of racist abuse and threats of acid attacks reflect badly on our society. Social media should be banned, I'd vote for that.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Why should it be banned? as for some its their only contact with the outside world and what about people whose relatives live quite a long way away and that is just 2 reasons l can think of as there are many more.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yes there's clearly a conspiracy against fair game tories by sandal wearing teachers. I'll say again IF true then the teacher is completely out of order and should be disciplined.
However the site you linked to with its jaunty bunting of "Tories" and Union Jack logos might just have a slight bias to the facts possibly. Not saying it isn't true, but haven't heard of it being reported elsewhere.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

What's wrong with the phone or email Den? Social media just seem to bring out trolls and general nastiness.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Not everybody uses the phone or email Mr K.

---------- Post added at 21:43 ---------- Previous post was at 21:42 ----------

A vocal minority Mr K.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Mr K you're not Jacob Rees Mogg in disguise are you ;), maybe we should all still converse via quill pens on the finest vellum like he probably does :D.
I do agree with the social media comment but it's the way it is, i'm sure we've always had trolls but it's just so much easier to be one nowadays.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I can assure you I'm nothing like The Hon Member for the Early 20th Century ! I don't want everyone to know my inner most thoughts at every point in the day, and I'm not interested in theirs ! No wonder we don't produce anything any longer we're too bust tweeting and facebooking crap.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Are you saying that the MP lied? The site I linked to is irrelevant. The clip came from a House of Commons debate not some dodgy website edit. Bob Stewart actually said more than was in the Guido clip.

Interesting how, despite what I've said, you've extrapolated it to talk about a conspiracy by sandal wearing teachers when I didn't say that and all I've asked for is that the teacher responsible is called to account. I'd say that's reasonable so please don't put words in my mouth, it's the sure sign of a lost argument.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

As others have noted the MP is reporting second hand what his child told him about an alleged event in class as presumably the MP wasn't there at the time.
So we don't know if it's true, a childs slant on something that was said or complete make believe.
If it is true then it's awful, don't know what else there is to say.

---------- Post added at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was at 22:20 ----------

I know Mr K, thankfully ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

That's all fine but you first implied I had some vendetta against teachers and then exaggerated what I clearly stated needed to be done about the person responsible. Right now we don't even know if an investigation is underway but why don't we? If my son was accused of even touching one of his students he'd be suspended on the basis of that accusation NOT ACTUAL PROOF. So when are we going to hear that the teacher implicated here is suspended pending investigation? Maybe allegations of bullying of a Tory's offspring doesn't warrant the same treatment in your books eh?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

So who's extrapolating now !

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Presumably Mr Stewart has raised it with the school, rather than just using his son in a political debate ?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

sounds perfect for him ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Remember all those Labour 'promises' that we could at long last have a debate on managed migration without resorting to accusations of racism? Yeah right, here we go again:

https://order-order.com/2017/09/24/c...tion-bunfight/

According to Lewis if you want to control migration into the UK you're a racist. Nice. Did anyone seriously think these people had gone away? Vote them in and it'll be much much more of the same and far worse for anyone with the temerity to disagree. Labour's loonies never change.

Even Brexit is racist to some strange folks evidently:

https://order-order.com/2017/09/24/b...ur-conference/

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Leopards never change their spots. :rolleyes:

God help us all if this rabble ever get into number 10: Venezuela without the oil.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Some of us know that yes. Some folks on the other hand never seem to learn that lesson when it comes to Labour and their nasty stereotyping of everyone who disagrees. It's never far beneath the surface no matter what they say or do and every so often one of them - Corbyn, Abbott, McDonnell, Lewis, Livingstone or whoever - will let the cat out of the bag and remind us what they really are and how their brand of intolerance is really no less nasty or extreme than their equivalent loonies on the far right.

Here we go again with Labour's nonsense - this time it's supposedly taking back in house all those PFI contracts a large number of which were agreed during the Blair/Brown years of economic 'prudence'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41379849

What does he mean and what will it all cost? It's the usual questions about populist unaffordable Labour garbage which they never seem able to answer for some odd reason... :rolleyes:

Before the election it was wiping out student debts and we know what happened to that 'promise' don't we. It went the same way as so many others they could never have delivered on...

---------- Post added at 16:24 ---------- Previous post was at 16:08 ----------

Some really nice folk disproving once and for all that Labour has a serious problem with anti-semtism:

https://order-order.com/2017/09/25/l...el-like-nazis/

Heartwarming stuff isn't it. :rolleyes:

Labour is about as likely to reform the nastiness out of the party as the EU is to forget all about a single European state so nobody ought to be holding their breath waiting.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Osem, I am trying to stay Labour news free this week :p:, but all I am hearing on various outlets so far, is total chaos and it is only Monday.

So far I have heard, BBC reporter needing a Security detail, a mother and baby being denied entry because baby does not have a conference pass and talk of Ed Miliband going off on one at Corbyn, oh and J.K Rowling tweeting that she is [Insert Profanity] Depressed, about there being a cult for an opposition. So business as usual in the Labour camp. :rofl:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yup, chaos, lies, spin, nastiness and intolerance as usual. They behave just like the people they spend so much time directing their foul bile towards. How anyone can fail to see that or think they'd be a credible government defeats me. Just look at the stuff they get up to and I'm talking senior party figures not just a few back bench nobodies like that perpetual idiot Dennis Skinner... :nutter:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Whilst trying to find details of Sadiq Khan's record on apologising for another thread I did find one rather pertinent example of him apologising for his party's behaviour in stereotyping UKIP supporters as being racist.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/478...to-Ukip-voters

Maybe he should have a quick word with his former colleague Clive Lewis who clearly hasn't read Corbyn's script but of course an election isn't imminent so it's OK for Labour to revert to type.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yawn, another evening of right wing hate on CF..... Express yawn, order-order, yawn. Immigration, yawn, Muslim mayor, yawn whinge rant etc, yawn. .... They aren't in power so no big deal eh? That's why things have gone so wonderfully for the past 7 years, and we have brilliant health service, with austerity having been worth it, the country united, living standards rocketing.... Everything is rosey with UK plc so chillax... ;)
There's some good telly on tonight too, you're missing it ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

You chill, you are not the only one with a TiVo box. We're not missing anything on the television that we want to watch.

And you whinge about austerity, but if Labour was ever to get in, there would be no money left to buy a tesco value tea bag. John Mcdonnell would have squandered it writing off people's credit card debts and then returning, Water, Railways, energy, Royal Mail back to state, which would cost hundreds of billions, but he ain't prepared to pay market rate.

Business investors will run for the hills with this clown in charge of the purse strings. :rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I think some of their proposals are quite good, the credit card clamp down being one, the Tories would do well to pinch it imo

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Most parties have a few decent policies but the trouble with some is they find it hard to see further then their nose and take off their rose tinted glasses from time to time.;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Correct. Some folks have short memories and/or a refusal to accept the facts of Labour's previous when it comes to damaging UK PLC with their flawed economic policy and the lack of regulatory oversight of the banking system (which Brown was heavily reliant on to provide the money he was spending like confetti). They whine about out of control spending since then but never want to talk about the amount of money successive governments have been having to shell out just to pay for Labour's profligacy and Brown's 'prudence' when they were in office.

Typically they're at it again now, nationalise this, take control of that, more money for everything blah, blah, blah - loads of simplistic populist hot air without any credible means by which to pay for it just as they did with their pre-election student loan lies. What sort of people buy into this garbage?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

They've pinched stuff before from Labour. E.g. the energy price cap, which she nicked from Ed Millibands last manifesto ( of course they ridiculed it at the time !). Soon as she got re-elected plan dropped of course ! Can't upset the private sector and shareholders, and people expect lies in elections these days anyway.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The previous Labour government are unrecognisable compared with the current crop. The policies of New Labour were certainly not left-wing.

Blaming Labour for the lack of regulatory oversight of the banking system is bizarre. They didn't engage in mass deregulation, that would've been the previous Conservative administrations. They erred with the creation of the FSA, they did not hold a regulatory bonfire.

I would remind that the Conservative government was offering to match Labour's spending while in opposition.

It's bizarre that, over 7 years since Labour left office, the UK's debt to GDP ratio is still rising and Labour are still being blamed. Our GDP per capita is 20%, TWENTY PERCENT, lower than at peak in 2007. Since 2010 it's gone up by less than 1/3rd of a percent according to the most easily available stats.

I was certainly on Labour's case over their apparent profligacy... then I stopped listening to people like Dan Hannan and thought for myself instead.

This is more for the rest of the audience, of course, the quoted poster apparently having everyone who doesn't agree with them on ignore. Always a strong way to expose lying hypocrites, avoiding dissenting points of view. Suggests more an inability to back up opinions and a mind closed by intense confirmation bias.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I see Corbyn's cronies are making contingency plans for a possible run on the pound if Labour were to be elected. Why would that be? They keep telling us their plans are costed, affordable, sound, right for Britain etc. etc. so why would they be so scared of any such eventuality? They tell us they're responsible and it's the current incumbents who're ruining the economy so why wouldn't the outcome of a Labour victory be for the markets to say hallelujah, pour their money into Sterling and invest in UK PLC?

If they're really worried about the markets then maybe they ought to examine their policies rather than planning for the event. They can legislate as much as they like but if the markets don't like what they see of Labour's strategy then a short term run on Sterling is the least of their and our worries I'd have thought.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I think it’s probably in case confidence is lost even if Labour believe that would be a mistake. I don’t see anything wrong with wargaming a multitude of scenarios upon taking office. Avoids a key mistake of being caught unprepared.

---------- Post added at 17:57 ---------- Previous post was at 17:55 ----------

Just to add that it would have been a good idea for the government to have down the same post-Brexit. It was only the fact the Bank of England was prepared that halted the panic in the markets the day after the vote.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

As some famous generals often said better to have a bad plan then no plan as whoever one supports in politics the same sentiment still applies.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

That said I suspect the leadership of the party don’t care if there is a run on the pound....

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It is likely that when the botched Brexit plays out, the combination of years of Tory austerity combined with a totally preventable "bonus" Brexit poverty will usher in a Corbyn administration.

I cannot stand Corbyn but if this happens, and there is a strong likelihood that it will, I await the font size change of the aforementioned quoted poster's forum signature :)

Seriously, if/when Labour gets into power due to Brexit, the irony of what Dave's domino effect started will be plain for all to see ..

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

This scenario is what concerns me the most about the current administration's approach to leaving the EU.

A Corbyn / McDonnell majority would probably be a nightmare.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well it seems Tom Watson's as confused about Corbyn as Corbyn is about Brexit. Not exactly a surprise I suppose given the 'bullyperson' tactics and intimidation being widely employed against dissenters by Labour's thugs.

https://order-order.com/2017/09/27/w...-capitulation/

---------- Post added at 13:01 ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 ----------

Better to avoid the sort of political/economic nonsense which would cause a run on Sterling in the first place. You know, stuff like promising all sorts of nationalisation that can't be afforded, refusing to back Nato commitments, punitive taxation, changing direction on Brexit every 10 mins, basic stuff like that...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I'm pretty sure someone in the Labour camp has read up on how the Conservative government handled things in the run up to Black Wednesday and made a few notes on how NOT to run economic policy.


Cheers


Dave

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yeah course they did. They made so many of those notes that they subsequently steered us into a hugely more serious financial crisis that, unlike Black Wednesday, we're still recovering from a decade later. I can do without people like that and their notes running the economy ever again, surprised you can't.


Meantime back in Labour's loony wonderland:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41411889

Where on Earth do they dredge these idiots up from?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well thank goodness we've got a competent bunch running things now hey?


Cheers


Dave

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well perfect they clearly aren't but they haven't caused a run on Sterling and aren't preaching the sort of unadulterated nonsense that Labour is so maybe we should be at least thankful for that.

Corbyn's cronies whine on ad nauseam about HMG's handling of Brexit but clearly haven't got a clue what they'd do. They can't even agree their own policy and didn't really want to discuss it FGS.

If the Tory conference were anything like what we've seen this week during Labour's there'd be an uproar about what nasty, racist, intolerant people they all are. The real irony is there's been a whole lot more of that this week in Brighton than you'll ever see at any Tory conference and so it has always been. Hypocrisy has always been a Labour trait and this lot are experts.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Thank goodness you're here to expose lying hypocrites with your balanced criticisms of the Conservative Party to go alongside that you dislike Labour so much you appear unable to stop talking about them.

Oh wait...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I don't think you can compare the conferences. The Labour conference allows more member-led proposed debates and motions than the Tory one which is almost entirely (if not completely) scheduled by Tory HQ. The Tory party can quickly shut down any off-script proposals or debates. Labour don't have the same ability plus it's a bigger membership before you even include all the trade unions and affiliates who turn up too.

So I don't think it's fair to compare a smaller, more controlled, conference to a larger free-for-all conference.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I think it's fair to expect the Labour party to expose and root out the extremists and racists amongst them during their conference whether they have direct control or not. The trouble is that these people are seizing control of the party and propping up Corbyn, McDonnell et al and that's why nothing's being done about it. Nasty, intolerant, hypocrites.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The party did vote to make it easier to expel anti-seminites and the worst of behaviour of the conference would have been at the fringe events rather than the conference itself.

I think there is a problem with anti-semitism on the left and one of unfairly demonising opponents but I don't think it's limited to them. Certainly the latter is seen across the political divide.

I have pointed out the problem with Corbyn and the left before but I think you're losing perspective with the party as a whole.

I mean you brought up the 2008 crisis but the economic policies that led to that are far closer to what the Tories advocate than Corbyn. The current Tory party are much closer to New Labour than Corbyn's Labour, the latter want far more regulation, nationalised banks, financial transaction taxes and so on.

The only real thing they share with New Labour is the name.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Posts have been deleted. Enough of the personal comments!

I will not tolerate any member being ganged up on! :afire:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Corbyn is quite funny to watch lately.
going Yeh! yeh! roar!

can't wait till he gets in. no more austerity. people can stop worrying and thinking of dying early.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Sigh, yet more post deletion(s). Members are reminded that when Team members post an instruction, it is not open to debate or reply.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I am afraid that after he's spent all our money, there will be austerity with a vengeance.

I am amazed that people can't see that. It looks like they will have to learn the hard way if they elect him and their short sightedness will impact on us all.

If he gets in, I'm emigrating!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

You mean in the same way a badly handled and ill prepared for Brexit will impact on all of us? Courage and Hope do not suffice in the real world ..

Careful what you wish for, Mrs May is preparing the way for Corbyn ..

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yeah just like before but those who voted for it will still no doubt blame the Tories. For some people it's clearly much easier to listen to someone who tells you it's all going to be OK than accept tough times are ahead. How many times does Corbyn have to lie, change course, obfuscate and excuse or ignore the most appalling behaviour before people wake up and see him for what he is I wonder? The sort of austerity we've been experiencing will be nothing if his party gains power and make no mistake, when he's served his usefulness Momentum will have an even more extreme puppet ready to pull the strings of.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I'm happy to blame the Tories for being so bad that people are entertaining Jeremy Corbyn as PM and the current Labour Party as a party of government.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Corbyn has done nothing to root out racism, sexism, anti-semitism or any form of nastiness his chums choose to employ. Just look at his circle of friends and allies. Anyone who tolerates a thug like McDonnell in such a senior position clearly doesn't have any issues with nastiness and intimidation. A female BBC reporter needing a bodyguard at their conference FGS. Who the hell are these people? Corbyn's crew are apologists for the most appalling behaviour and clearly don't mind being propped up by some very intolerant people indeed.

During my lifetime Labour have created economic chaos whatever incarnation they've chosen to spin themselves as. Whether it be the likes of Dennis Healey or Gordon Brown they've always wound up borrowing too much, spending unwisely and leaving others to pick up the pieces and having the audacity to blame them for it. They called in the IMF and made the UK a pathetic laughing stock then after over a decade in power with a huge majority they steered us into the biggest crisis in living memory and tried to blame the Tories for that. Yeah, forgive me for being harsh on Labour but I've been around long enough to know what they're like and that they haven't improved one iota. Nasty, inept and a disgrace to the people they say they represent.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Venezuela, here we come, then :rolleyes:

I can't believe you'd want to inflict that on all of us and your family. It's time to behave more responsibility.

---------- Post added at 15:59 ---------- Previous post was at 15:55 ----------

You will see that Brexit will work as we finish the transition.

It seems that you cannot understand how it can work, and that you just have to see for yourself when the time comes.

For my part, I really don't understand the negativity. You must be fun to live with!!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Who people want to vote for is their own business as he is not telling you who you should vote for and whoever he votes for is his business and his alone.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

No, but who we all vote for collectively affects the lives of everyone. I don't want to see people in this country plunged into abject poverty because JC plunders all the money that we don't have. Crazy, crazy politics. And it's the poor who will suffer the most, as usual.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Well that's been very true over the last 7 years ! One section of society has carried on regardless though; 'we're all in this together' my arse.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

As usual your opinion is not born out by the facts:

Source

But hey, lets just have a go at the baby eating Tory's for the sake of it.:rolleyes:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yup, it's their stock in trade. Keep quiet about their own track record of the economy, housing, inequality etc. etc. etc. Just blame everything on the Tories and condone the sort of thuggishness and intimidation we've seen so often at their rallies, demonstrations and so called conferences not to mention so widely on affiliated social media. Why is it that Labour feel they can preach fairness and morality when their tactics are so often more closely related to the likes of the BNP in its heyday? Epic hypocrites!

For the many not the few? Do me a favour. :rofl:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

You ain't seen nothing yet. The recession resulted from the last Labour Government, and even with the measures introduced, we're still paying off the deficit so we can stop our trillians of pounds worth of debt from continuing to increase.

What do you think the £312 billion new commitments Corbyn has just announced at his conference do to the economy even before the current debt created by Labour has started to be paid??

What is more, what additional commitments will Labour commit themselves to between now and the next election?

No wonder they are worrying about a run on the pound!!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

And you appear to have left out or forgotten the fact that they were the people responsible for all of it, many of the poor little dears now having to get by on just 2.5 million a year are lucky they didn't go to prison so yes let's have a go at them and anyone else who hasn't held those responsible to account

They're not worrying about it, imo it was an incredibly smart piece of politicking, as good as Mrs Mayday bringing gove in from the cold and lets not forget who was in charge last time there was an actual run on the pound either

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Ah yes the Bankers, best friends of Tory bretheren, still living it large and unaffected by the disaster they caused. Still forgive and forget eh ? Can always blame it on the socialists !

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

You don't have to convince me about Corbyn, I was banging that drum back when people thought his candidacy was a joke. Now he is a lot closer to No 10 than most of us expected.

But his ascendency is at least in part down the Tories own ineptitude. They played games that came back to haunt them. Drastically cutting benefits for some, freezing public sector pay and doing little to address the cost of living crisis. A lot of the economic growth we did get, which remained sluggish for the last 7 years, has been fuelled by consumer debt as opposed to any great gains to productivity.

And yet despite all that they kept missing their own targets for eliminating the deficit because they weren't able to get the gains in the economy they wanted and weren't actually beyond spending on benefits so long as it was for 'their' voters.

Tuition frees tripled, young people were priced out of the housing market and/or went into less secure work than their parents, people in the public sector effectively saw their pay cut accounting for inflation whereas others struggled.

Corbyn may not have the solution for these, the housing charity Shelter disapprove of rent controls for example, but the Tories didn't offer any for years. Theresa May actually did spot this weakness, even co-opting some of Ed Miliband's ideas about predatory capitalism, but it was too late. That last point also highlights why I think the obsession over party can be unhealthy since she offered ideas deemed insane just twos years before...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Politics is Politics.
you agree and he disagrees.
you been in long enough. time for him to have a go now.
that's how it happened last time.


they had a good innings though. they can't complain.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Can you not see the contradiction here? On one hand, your decision to back Brexit is inflicting a poorer future on a generation that did not want it and then in the same breath, you say that you cannot believe that someone would want to inflict a poorer future on you & yours? Words fail me ...

I see you have Hope and Faith but they did not work for King Canute and they will not work for you ..

Lastly, drop the personal comments, eh?

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I think you've nailed it in a single sentence!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The problem the Tories have is that Brexit is totally swamping the process of Government. The civil service can only handle 1 'massive" project at once: they are not sized to run the country and have spare capacity to handle the 40+ year complexity that is unravelling the EU exit process.

As a result, "good" Government is effectively on hold for the next 2 years. All they can do is react and band-aid. Strategy policy making requires skill, time and a realistic Parliamentary majority. Mrs May has none of these.

The country will see inflation going up, a looming credit crisis, a resurgent risk-taking City fuelled by near 2008-level bonuses and they will reflect on the brutal cuts of local and national Government services. They will ask why not give Labour a go? Some of the policies make sense to many e.g. re-nationalisation of key infrastructure, curtailing the ever increasing wealth disparity, etc.

All Corbyn has to do is try and walk the Brexit tightrope long enough to not alienate one side or the other. If he can get to the next Election having done this then I feel he would be favourite to win.

What will be interesting is that when/if Corbyn gets into power, will the people who endlessly complain that criticising Brexit is "undemocratic", immediately shut up when Corbyn is voted into No 10. by the "will of the people"? No way .. talk about hypocrisy .. Jeez ...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Spot on Damien.:tu:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Warning:

Another post deleted, that was berating and provocative in tone.

It is a thinly veiled personal attack and I'm not having it.

The next person to berate and provoke or refer to another member, in the 3rd person, such as referring to them as, 'usual suspect', may face having their posting privileges revoked until further notice.

Nobody, is a 'usual suspect' on this forum. In a civil debate. What other people say, you refer to them by name.

In all honesty. The current tone in Current Affairs is toxic. Too much of a them vs. us situation. This has to end.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

So if Corbyn hasn't got the solution for these problems why are people thinking about voting for his party and their totally unrealistic objectives and, frankly, lies? People may not like the status quo, do you imagine I do? Do you imagine I like my son being one of those with a huge student debt and being unable to buy a home? Do you imagine the squeeze on social care and benefits which adversely affects my other son's entire life is a pleasure to me? The thing is that it wouldn't have been any different under Labour because they won't end the fees system they won't build all the cheap housing and they'll destroy the economy making things far far worse in the longer term. I don't know how many more times they have to be given the chance to prove it before people realise they're a busted flush and Corbyn's vision as dictated by the likes of Momentum will lead to a very nasty outcome indeed.

It's all very well getting angry but people have to give proper thought to the ramifications of putting Corbyn's cronies in office. Given the chance they'll destroy our economy and those who've been whining about austerity will get to find out they haven't got a clue how bad real austerity is just like the Greeks have. It's rather revealing that none of those who support the sort of stuff Corbyn is promising ever seem to have anything to say about the likes of Greece. I can't think why can you? It's populist but highly dangerous pie in the sky and when they subsequently come to realise it and demand better they'll find out just how nasty the people they elected are.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Because they're offering some ideas and the Tories offered fewer. Also not everything believes they're not realistic solutions. It's also not as if the Tories have great credibility on the economy either, lambasting the 'magic money tree' but finding money whenever they need a electoral bribe or to do a deal with the DUP.

I think more than anything though it could end up simply that they're the only realistic alternative in our system.

You've said before that if you ignore people long enough they'll react when talking about immigration and the rise of parties like UKIP. I think the same applies for Corbyn. If people are generally doing alright then they may not want to take the risk but if they've got little else, insecure work, cut benefits, no prospect of home ownership and ever-rising costs then they might well think it's worth a shot.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Ideas are easy mate and if people believe they're the only credible way forward we're already doomed. Tell me what is realistic about Corbyn's nationalisation garbage, his PFI reviews, his housing promise, rent controls, Brexit policy, student debt pledges, etc etc etc. It's all so much tosh and I'm staggered that anyone would consider any of it 'realistic'. It's populist nonsense and we saw just how easily he finds dropping pre-election pledges after the event. Clearing student debts??? Yeah Labour were really going to do that weren't they... :rolleyes:

They found £1bn which is being spent on services in NI as part of an electoral deal, not given to politicians. It may stick in the throat for some people but it pales into insignificance when compared to the cost of Labour's spending promises. Remind us how much that 'fully costed' promise to do away with student loans/debt was going to cost? How big do you think they're money tree will have to be to get us out of the PFI* contracts 80% of which were negotiated on Labour's watch? How much bigger will it need to be to renationalise the utilities they've told us they'll do away with. These people are talking nonsense. They have no plan, they're promising what they know they can't deliver and they'll do what they always do which is spend money like confetti to keep themselves in power for as long as they can. They'll then blame it all on the Tories.

*
https://order-order.com/2017/09/25/8...-under-labour/

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...y_to_Scotland/

That's just Scotland!

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

The Tories main selling point at the last election was vote for us because the alternative is worse; very much like some of the repeated boring posts here about nasty/cronies/hypocrites etc.... The negative narrative didn't work very well. They'd do well to reflect on that.

'Corbyn is nasty' isn't good enough any longer. They need to say something positive about how they are going to rescue the health service and make housing and higher education affordable and increase peoples standard of living, which is being eroded by inflation and stagnant wages. I suspect they can't because they don't intend to do any of these things, just pander to their narrow privileged base and try and scare everyone else. It isn't going to work forever, people are wising up, even if they don't care for Corbyn.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It would be nice if people on both sides could accept other peoples views without insults that is for sure.

---------- Post added at 10:50 ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 ----------

Its pretty clear that that nasty narrative failed at the last election and yet the Conservatives and their media friends still seem hell bent on continuing with the same negative nasty narratives.

People don't want false insincere promises anymore as they want things that are going to improve their own living standards and improve the NHS and the main public services.

---------- Post added at 10:53 ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 ----------

l don't care much for Corbyn but l care even less for Theresa May and she has done diddly squat since she became PM to change that sentiment.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I think people are wising up, that they've seen the absolutely dire situation in Venezuela and they do not want that under a Corbyn led government. He will not make Prime Minister.

If that was the only issue.

The main roles occupied by people who had sided with terrorists. Corbyn wanting to drink tea and have biscuits in Parliament with IRA people.

Abbott, who in the eighties, was literally egging on the IRA, that she more or less wanted the British defeated, but to quote her 'had a rather splendid Afro at the time' she no longer has the Afro, so no longer has these views.

The other issue I have, is that I consider some of her comments racist. She once tweeted along the lines of, "Whites like to play divide and rule, we should not play them at their own game.'

McDonnell, thought at one time, that the 'bombs and the bullets' from the IRA, should be honoured. He has since apologised for making such assertions, but he can be a nasty piece of work when he wants to be.

I cannot and will not ever get behind such repugnant and vile people and well, if Corbyn does make it to No. 10, I will be chanting "Not my Prime Minister" from the rooftops.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Did McDonnell ever apologise for saying this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEuKBxdyy-Q

"Student's kicking the **** out of Millbank..." ..."The best of our movement..." What sort of person could say that and get away with it?

Thugs like him only apologise when they're forced into it. He's always been the same and is a very nasty piece of work just like many of those he associates with. We're not talking about a back bench nobody here we're talking about the Shadow Chancellor and potentially Deputy PM! To think these people have the front to call the Tories nasty...

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Still negative, negative, negative....

How about something positive on what a great job the Government are doing ? I'll wait ;)

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

:confused:

I didn't say anything about how I was going to vote? I pointed out that more and more people are tempted by Labour because the Tories are failing so hard. This is simple fact, and your opinion or mine is irrelevant.

---------- Post added at 12:23 ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 ----------

It worked for Donald Trump. They are following that play book, right down to accusations of 'fake news' and denigrating unflattering media. They have weak opposition, they have a country fed up with the status quo, they have a country that is incredibly polarised, thanks among other things to Brexit, and has total disdain for expertise and fact-based arguments, thanks to the play book from the referendum. People have had enough of experts and all that.

Add to that the likelihood of a move from the Tories back to UKIP as reality continues to hit the May administration and they realise they can't deliver on the post-referendum propaganda and it's a nightmare in the making. Leave.EU's propaganda-stream has turned the diarrhea dial up to 11 after May's Florence speech, even though there was nothing especially controversial in it, and their acolytes are duly irate.

We are terrifyingly close to Jeremy Corbyn being in charge of the nation and the clueless ideologue McDonnell, a man who makes Corbyn look neo-liberal, in charge of the Treasury.

---------- Post added at 12:27 ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 ----------

There is no indication that people are wising up to this, and certainly the UK would be unlikely to go the same way as Venezuela. This is the same kind of hyperbole as claiming the UK would go the same way as Greece if we didn't have copious amounts of austerity.

You dislike them for all of this you'd love their Brexit position: it seems to be along the lines of EEA/EFTA - the Norway option - with restrictions on freedom of movement using the existing provisions in the EEA treaty.

YouGov poll published 26th September:

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

:argue:

For goodness sake, more posts of where members are again, arguing and attacking each other. I have removed these posts.

Also, I did not ask for a long running list of what appears to be problematic posts to someone. Members should not be singling out anybody, publicly, for any reason.

This thread has a topic, it is not here to air a grievance against one or more individuals.

Despite not always agreeing with each other and I know a number of members disagree with me, these members know who they are, I still value ALL input, I would never add derogatory label and label them as a 'usual suspect' and do it, in a fashion that it really does not matter if that member sees it, I think it's ignorant and rude.

Nor would I take it upon myself to copy someone's signature, change a few words here and there, in a bid to then take a side swipe at this person, it's not really on to be doing this kind of thing. It's playground stuff.

Just so you know, the team are monitoring this situation in this sub-area. CF is not about stifling peoples views, but these attacks on each other, it cannot continue and I am not blaming just one side or that side, it is both sides that are doing it.

As for now we need to keep to thread topic please.

---------- Post added at 13:21 ---------- Previous post was at 13:12 ----------

I struggle to trust any kind of polling, sorry but I do. I saw a Twitter Poll asking the question if people are ready to accept JC as PM, think it was 53% No. 47% Yes, with a sample size of around 6,700 which is probably bigger than the YouGov sample size.

But again, don't trust this either because it's twitter.

There has been more than a few examples of previous polling and them being widely off the mark.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Look at the last election where many pollsters forecast a Conservative landslide and were well out come General Election night.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

It's the only data we have. Have to regard it more highly than anyone's 'feels', especially when we all have our biases. I'd keep an eye on what the business community are doing, too. They are hedging their bets and working on ways to make peace with this new/old incarnation of Labour as there is a realistic prospect of them being in charge.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I was gearing up for this too but I saw the mood was changing, it did not help though that the Tories led an absolutely dire campaign. I never want to hear the words Strong & S... again... :erm:

You saw me the day before the election on here, say I think it will be a hung parliament. I saw the mood change. I saw the same kind of 'movement' that Trump had in the U.S and what Corbyn gained in the last few weeks.

I read off all kinds of data. Likes on Youtube videos, followers on social media, Corbyn's campaign was a far better one than May's and his was a more positive campaign, this cannot be denied.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Easy when your election strategy is promising to deliver stuff you can't hope to in the real world and you don't really believe you have a cat's chance in hell of being elected and having to come up with the goods.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Still waiting......

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

But if you form an alliance with the DUP you can gain power but you then have to contend with delivering the undeliverable. As we May be finding out sooner or later. ;)

---------- Post added at 21:24 ---------- Previous post was at 21:06 ----------

The front page headline on the FT says "UK sinks to bottom of G7 growth table" and continues "Britain has fallen from the top to the bottom of the league of G7 leading economies in the year since the Brexit vote, with official data on Friday showing slower growth than previously thought."

Bearing in mind that the Conservatives pride themselves on their economic prowess, I'm not surprised that evidence of the Government doing a good job is hard to find.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

This shows just how much the Conservatives were damaged by calling the general election which no one actually wanted.

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2017/09...voters-future/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...ge-reputation/

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Boris surely has to be fired soon: https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/...onde-ambition/

From a Channel 4 Documentary.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

No surprise IMO as Boris has always had naked ambition but a party divided and at war with itself is generally deeply frowned upon by the British electorate.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

That's probably all large parties then except the Liberal Democrats who aren't exactly overflowing in popularity.
Boris seems to be choosing his moments to wind May up. On the eve of the conference at which May wants to discuss policy initiatives apart from Brexit, Boris is firmly stirring things up with a Sun interview emphasising his divergence from the agreed line on key aspects of leaving the EU.

1. Length of transition
TM "About two years"
BJ "Do I want the delay to go on longer than two years? Not a second more."

2. Adopting European Court rulings during transition period
TM concedes this may be inevitable
BJ Should not accept them

3. Single market access post EU
TM Open mind
BJ Britain should not pay for access to the single market after the transition period ends and that the UK should not shadow European rules to maintain access to the single market.

https://www.ft.com/content/cb12eb60-...c98a2?mhq5j=e5
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7975066.html
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/458033...xit-red-lines/

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

...but there are threads elsewhere for Donald Trump and the EU referendum. ;)

---------- Post added at 18:15 ---------- Previous post was at 18:11 ----------

Give it another year and Boris may change his mind again.

After all, a year ago:

The most interesting thing about that man is trying to work out his level of delusion versus his level of deceit. About the only things that trump (pun intended) either of those are his incompetence and his ambition.

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

I wonder who's behind this?...

https://order-order.com/2017/09/30/p...ries-effigies/

What nice people there are out there. Real democrats eh? Not at all nasty lefties. Nice to see it's not being treated as a hate crime though because it's clearly not full of hate or inciting violence is it... :rolleyes:

Maybe those sad morons behind it got their inspiration from McDonnell who thought this was acceptable behaviour for anyone other than a vile thug:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ion-row-as-ol/

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Yawn, yet again. Do you ever get 'déjà vu' ? I experience it regularly on here.

---------- Post added at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was at 22:22 ----------

Still waiting btw.....

Re: Government & Post Election Discussion
 

Most people do not believe the Tories are on their side. My party has to change -
Phillip Lee MP (Conservative)

:gpoint:

I have never voted Conservative. I have voted mostly for the yellow team and once for the red team, 2015, voting for a local MP who had been enormously helpful to me. I most certainly wouldn't vote for them as things stand. Were they to get back to how they are supposed to be this would be subject to change.

Wow; a Tory who seems to be interested in the electorate as a whole and has realised that relying on the votes of the older generations isn't a good idea long-term. Perhaps if more of them were more preoccupied with that than winning control of the Conservative Party and/or engaging in demagoguery over the European Union and their interpretation of the referendum result they would have been able to win a majority over the most left-wing, polarising Labour Party in decades.

---------- Post added at 23:19 ---------- Previous post was at 23:15 ----------

It's likely anyone who disagrees is on ignore. Echo chambers are the in thing at the moment, sadly. Either way no point in engaging, just a waste of time for all involved unless to debunk opinion with facts for the benefit of the wider audience.

---------- Post added at 23:26 ---------- Previous post was at 23:19 ----------

So demagogue #1 is in a little trouble there.

On 3: to access the SM and, indeed, in any trading arrangement, adherence to the rules of the market are required. No need to 'shadow' them all but you aren't going to be selling non-compliant goods and services that don't meet the standards so there is definitely going to have to be some element of 'shadowing'.

On 2: that isn't on offer. Any transition period mentioned so far is subject to union acquis. That means the four freedoms and the jurisdiction of the ECJ. There is no offer that involves the UK picking and choosing, there is no a la carte menu, only the set courses.

On 1: as mentioned previously this is the same guy who, last year, said the full Article 50 period wouldn't be necessary because they need us more than we need them. He will tell people whatever he thinks they want to hear, and pursue what is best for Boris. This is abundantly clear, and he ensures he reminds us whenever he opens his mouth.

He is, simply, stirring the excrement pot. He is doing everything he can to get fired it seems, so that he can be the Brexit martyr. What he's doing may play well with some of the Conservative Party, it neither plays well with the country as a whole or the European Union. For many it might well be a case of fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

EDIT: The worst part about it all is that for all that he's doing the PM is too weak to be able to fire him. He can directly challenge her on Brexit twice in a fortnight, in between reciting an incredibly inappropriate poem in a sacred Buddhist site in Myanmar and having to be reprimanded by the Ambassador.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqLIm0HOvuQ