re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think most people have had reservations about the EU for years (I'd be one) but never felt strongly enough to do something more than moan because life was still pretty good in spite of what they were doing. Things have been steadily unravelling ever since the likes of the Greeks were helped to cook their books . People have had a good number of years in which to directly feel the effects of the EU's flawed policy and the extent to which the UK has been putting in far more than it's been getting out with very little influence amongst the old team of Germany and France who've been running the show to suit themselves for years. It's rather like the migration situation - people are often very generous until they start to see/feel the adverse effects on their daily lives.

It'd be great if we could have all the pros and cons spelled out in a clear, unbiased manner and then vote but I think after all these years most people believe that will never happen. The decision then boils down to whether dissatisfaction with what we've experienced at the hands of the EU and the rapidly worsening situation in Europe is sufficient to make getting out a no brainer on the basis that things could hardly be worse.

I think we're at the point where this decision is going to be made by a great many people on an emotional, intuitive, level and only time will allow us to make a judgement about which would have been the best option.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Agreed. Whilst in the EU the corner principle of freedom of movement within the EU can never be opposed and since the vast majority of those fleeing into Southern Europe are automatically being given leave to stay in the EU and thus benefit from that freedom to come and go as they please, many people in the UK will see that as a very negative aspect of EU membership and vote accordingly.

Cameron's watered down benefits cap/limit/brake or whatever it's called today is unlikely to affect how many will chose to come here as the majority of them are not coming for benefits but for the myriad of low paid jobs that big business is generating. To those without jobs from Eastern Europe or further away those jobs look well paid.

The resulting pressure to drive wages down to the bare minimum is affecting many families. Putting in place the living wage will partly offset that drive but it just makes the wages in the UK look even more attractive to migrants. Without an effective work permit system, that we can only properly implement after leaving the EU, they'll still come in their hundreds of thousands each year.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Martin Schultz surely is the epitome of the arrogant, blinkered, Eurocrats running the show. Can these people really be trusted?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Stopping benefits isnt going to stop migration - its a massive red herring peddled by Dave. Most are coming because of better wages. The minimum wage in the UK is over 3 times that of Poland -that's the reason they come and who can blame them. They are mostly filling jobs that British chavsters are too bone idle or don't have the skills to do - our economy would be stuffed without them.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why we should be paying anyone for their children is beyond me.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

When you are elderly you will be dependent on other peoples children no matter how rich you are.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So this is why we pay for them to be brought up in droves? This child benefit lark needs reining in.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So basically we are hoping that they remember our largesse when our time of need comes? Fingers crossed, eh? :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'd rather get this fiasco over and done with get out of the EU and onto sorting out the many issue's the UK faces including real vocational training for people in this country. We all know Cameron isn't going to have this referendum in a fair open way as he is too big a supporter of the EU so in one way or another one vote will not decide this and we will have more till we vote the right way as per the EU's desire. Hell I wouldn't put it past the EU to have a way to block our exit if we do vote to come out and i don't have much faith in any of our current politicians to fight back too much.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Operation scaremonger in top gear. This can only firm up the leave vote as the claims become increasingly bizarre and obviously desperate.


Linky

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Scaremongering on the other side too as Vote Leave frame the discussion as saving your hospital:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2016/02/19.jpg

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's interesting how others have responded to avoid the Brexit now that David Cameron has started his "renegotiations" with the EU.

Barack Obama wants a strong UK in a strong EU.

The Russians, it seems, would view a Brexit as a sign of weakness.

One member of the German government has threatened a trade war if the UK leaves the EU.

David Cameron tells us that there is a lot of willingness to try to meet the UK's limited "demands" but despite this it always seems to lead to a further watering down of the original limited proposals.

Before long the agreed proposals will not be worth having as so many are falling back on agreement being required from other EU leaders. The Conservatives are slowly selling out our sovereignty and capacity for independence. I could not imagine that happening under Margaret Thatcher.

You do wonder what happened to the Brtish Lion which forged the Commonwealth, trading with countries all over the world.

Our current politicians sadly do not seem to have the same capacity for independent thought and action as some of our courageous, pioneering forebears. Strange really given that the Conservatives used to be known as the Reforming Tories in the days when reform meant REAL reform and not some con being perpetrated on the British public.

The UK could survive outside the EU but I do wonder what would happen to the Euro if we left. What would the EU do with a Brexit black hole in its finances? Perhaps they would increase the contributions of other EU contributors. Or perhaps they would spend less.

The sad truth is that the EU want to keep us in because of our large contribution to the EU budget,money that could be better spent on the infrastructure of the UK.

Maybe then we can make a real effort to save our ailing industries rather than promising support which turns out to be financial support to find a new job elsewhere.

It will be very interesting to see what the EU leaders make of David Cameron's proposals though I can't help wishing that the other leaders would have the guts to reject them.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That would be the better option.

That would be the ideal situation. Then the snake oil goes down the pan together with its salesman.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35583140

They're understandably protective of their Euro-gravy train 'c u m'* train wreck.


(* Note to swear filter - preposition used to ​join two ​nouns, ​showing that a ​person or thing does two things or has two ​purposes...)

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/***

---------- Post added at 18:11 ---------- Previous post was at 18:04 ----------

That'd depend on the industries - sadly, some of them just aren't competitive anymore and even if we could subsidise them it'd be money down the drain. Better to create new and sustainable jobs where that's possible.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Damn that American dictionary. :D

Whilst subsidising dying industries is a mugs game there are occasions when some strategic help could get a business back on its feet.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'd agree and we ought to be creating decent jobs so far as possible, especially for skilled people who're capable of adapting their abilities to suit new industries. There's a general lack of foresight and longer term planning in these matters.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Linky

He will. You can bet every dirty trick in the book will be deployed.:(

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Broadly agree with everything else you said apart from this.

It was always entertaining watching Maggie handbag those European leaders, wasn't it? Except that within all that "no to Delores guff" she shouted about, she signed every European treaty put in front of her.... Don't forget it was Thatcher who put us in the pre-euro ERM - Exchange Rate Mechanism.

She wasn't as anti-European as everyone thought!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It is generally accepted that Thatcher capitulated to Europhiles in her cabinet who wanted in to the ERM, and always regretted acceding to it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

ERM, Euro, EU - it's all the same, not in the UK's interests.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

No, it was more than that. And I know that history paints a different picture now.

She was pro-European. THis is one of the many things that was widely misunderstood about her.

If she were alive today she would've spearheaded a European army to take on the Russians in Ukraine and deal with the migrant crisis coming out of Syria. She did not like weakness in any form and she would've been horrified about the way the politicians of today go about things.

It is hard to imagine in these days, but before the Germans came to dominate all things European after their unification, we were the strongest voice in Europe. And perhaps if she had have moderated her language or the way she went about things a little differently, rather than facing Brexit, we could have been the leaders of Europe.

It was still a male dominated world back then and what people hated the most about her was the fact she was a woman, especially from those on the Left and the so called social democratic/liberal parties of Europe.

But some things don't change. Whether Thatcher of yesterday or Cameron of today, there's always the French to deal with!:)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Linky

And there in a nutshell we have it. Without it in law then Dave's deal amounts to sweet FA.

A vote to stay means more EU, more migrants, more meddling and the eventual relegation of the UK government to the status of a parish council debating chamber.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Even if Cameron, gets what he wants. He then has to put it to the British voter.

And l cannot see the point in being in the EU. If we pay a lot of money into the EU pot, and we get even half back. Then what the points.

Britian will be dictated to by the EU, and no matter what Cameron says. Britain will be worse off.

At the present time Britain allows our tax money, to pay for benefits to people, that don't even live here.

And yet, people are struggling in this country.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Can't fault you there Arthur. :tu:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It's mind-boggling, the extent to which these arguments mirror those deployed in Scotland in 2014.

Back then, we had the Yessers trying to make the NHS an issue, in their case by use of some very torturous reasoning to try to prove the (entirely devolved) Scottish NHS was somehow at risk from remaining in the Union.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yup. I think most of the arguments will be the same from both the Stay/Leave campaigns.

Leave will point out the 'democratic deficit', the prosperous future and the flaws in the existing arrangement. Stay will point to instability, fear factor and wheel out big business.

Even the place the two camps come from are similar. A battle between a leave campaign which spent so long attempting to get this vote but aren't quite sure what to do when it comes and a Stay campaign that has been lazy and never wanted to do this in the first place.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't think the kipper hierarchy want to leave, we leave and their reason for being ceases and the gravy train they're scoffing more than most from hits the buffers. That might not be true of nigel himself but it is of his closest acolytes.

Seems to me we have a divided leave campaign and a stay campaign that can't be bothered to do anything other than peddle lies, it's dissapointing such an important and historic decision is being treated so shabbily imo

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Surely the objective of the EU as a unified state must inevitably mean a unified tax system, unified benefits system and unified health provision. No other EU country funds its health system as we do so we will have to change to the EU system of health insurance.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think that is a bit of a leap. Not least because the EU states all have their own systems of healthcare implemented in different ways. I doubt even the leaflet is going that far, they're properly talking about the Transatlantic Trade agreement.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Begging Dave is starting to look desperate and embarrassing for the UK. Not so smug now are you Dave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Watered down gruel. Please sir can I have some more?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Except they don't want a unified state....

Ask the Germans or French if they want a United States of Europe and its a resounding no. They want "more Europe" and "closer together" not merger. Merkel has repeatedly said that German law in Germany is supreme and she will not except Brussels diktats. German newspapers mention daily that Brussels is getting too powerful.

Personally, I don't think they have ever known what they are doing and it will all end in tears.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well it would appear that Dave has delivered his CV to the Eurocrats. He just has to wait to see what post he'll get once he retires from No 10.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

:rofl:

However, I think he'd earn a great deal more for a great deal less work if he just emulated Bliar.

Back to topic - I'd have less of a problem with Europe if they had a credible plan for getting where they say they want to go. As it is, we've suffered decades of dubious decision making, cozy deals and ineffectual policy to get us into the complete state of chaos we're seeing now and there's not a shred of evidence that they've learned anything from past mistakes and flawed ideology. Nope, the grand 'plan' seems to be more of the same - admit more members to the club no matter what...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Just think though if we stay in, the migrant crisis is gonna hit Europe hard and all it takes is for the UK (which we're not in Schengen) to vote against those who want to spread the migrants about to force in the future yet a greater deal for us without us accepting any migrants currently floating in Europe ;)

I've been on the in/out fence for a bit, As a business I can see the monetary benefits (which do outweigh the monetary costs) yet also see the inane rules forced on us. Currently I'd vote in... but only just..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If we stay in the EU, the EU courts will decide what action we can take with regard to migrants, which means we cannot reject EU migrants.

If we leave the EU, UK courts will decide.

I prefer the latter as it gives us greater power to act on immigration.

There is little if any real support for the UK in the EU. If the UK leaves the EU it will be interesting to see what happens to all the migrants. If they come here we can expel them as there won't be an EU court compelling us to keep them.

The only way to get back control is to leave the EU because then the UK government and courts will be the ones making the decisions rather than being dependent on the vitually non-existent support for the UK from other EU countries.

I really hope the other EU leaders reject Cameron's ideas so that we can leave and get on with running our own country ourselves.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There is no EU law that states we must take migrants. So the EU courts can not force migrants on us. The rules do state that the first country of entry into the EU are the ones forced to accept them. The only way they can get here without UK acceptance is for the country of entry to provide them citizenship and an EU passport which few want to do...

Gawd there's so much scaremongering in this thread... :rolleyes:

Britain is in a very strong position regarding these migrants, if it wasn't then the Jungle in Calais wouldn't exist.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

@ NTL User - As huge as it is, the migration problem is really only the latest manifestation of what's fundamentally wrong with the EU. I don't think leaving the EU on its own will be a panacea for migration (or other problems either) since, IIRC, we'd still be answerable under the ECHR unless we choose to withdraw from that also which we cold do regardless of our EU membership.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think I'm now more out than in....

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Correct Osem. We would have to withdraw from that as well. It is our own Human Rights act that is causing the biggest problem in that regard.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If the first country of entry has to accept migrants why are the French not accepting all the migrants in Calais who are currently trying to get through the Channel Tunnel.

It does appear that many EU countries are simply allowing them access through their country and routing them on to the next country.

There is no law forcing us to accept migrants but as Greece and Italy have found out a law is not necessary when thousands of migrants can simply land on your beaches in the early hours of the morning and as the first country of entry you are expected to look after them. And who is to to say what laws the EU will make in future given that EU law takes precedence over national laws.

Matters are further complicated when some migrants have turned out to be terrorists, so being careful as to who you admit is not scaremongering it is common sense. If it comes to that there has been lots of scaremongering as to how bad things will be for the UK outside the EU, especially when one German minister threatens a trade war if we leave the EU.

We also have to bear in mind that 5% of our working population are out of work and the arrival of further migrants will simply make their task of finding a job much harder. There is also the matter of the pressure their arrival puts on housing, education and other public services like the NHS.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Therein lies the difference between EU rules and reality. In many ways their mind-set reminds me of King Cnut...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well put it this, if Cameron caves into taking more Migrants. Don't you think the British will be up in arms over the benefit system.

Migrants will get treated better, than our own people.

Wasn't it several years ago, when Migrants were allowed to settle in Scotland. And got better treatments than the Scots.

I may be wrong, but that's what l was told. And l have Scottish relatives.

Some were moved to Easterhouse

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If they were moved to Easterhouse, they weren't being treated better than the Scots* - trust me on that one...;)

*unless Easterhouse has improved beyond all recognition in the last couple of decades - it was like Beirut, without the sunshine and friendly natives...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Looks like Gove is going to back the out campaign.

Anyway, I think the Belgium PM has done the 'Out' team talk for us:

http://www.usnews.com/news/business/...ial-regulation

These people are insane.

Right now we are seeing why the EU doesn't and can't work, if we needed any more evidence. It's too big and involved in far too much. The bigger it gets and the more competing views and interests there are, the slower and more complex everything becomes. Of course all that demands yet more Eurocrats with their noses at the Euro-trough...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Understatement of the week :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cable Forum thrives on it.;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes old bean it is happening right now. Lets tread on a Brit-Born Native... crap country with live in.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You do realise that we are a nation whose ancestors may well be immigrants..including the Royal family.No country/nation has ever managed to survive without immigrants.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35616768


I have the sneaking suspicion that this 'deal' will be as good for the UK as Baldrick's cunning plans were for Edmund Blackadder...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We know any deal will be worth sweet FA, face it, if any country in the EU can negotiate a preferential deal on the pretext of having an in/out referendum, they'd all be at it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Right..... will Boris now go for it and stick the knife into Cameron, all for the "good" of the country of course...?

Gove is already going to be in the out camp, so Saturday should be interesting.

Cameron on tv now.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Here is the deal:

The key changes will mean that:

It's a bit better than the one from a few weeks ago but not what he would have wanted at the start. I think that last point was designed to be the rabbit out of the hat. Someone who knows what they're talking about will have to let us know what it actually means but on the face of it that is probably the substantial one.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It means nothing unless it is ratified.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cameron has made a good case, but it still doesn't change the main issues over border and migrant control. Now I've got the details, I'm voting out.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Wow, deal achieved just in time for the 10 o'clock news. Whodathunkit.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I already know which way i will vote so i am going to try and avoid all the crap that will be thrown at us on the TV and in the press.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm disappointed to hear that some of the Grassroots Out lot staged a walk-out when George Galloway turned up at a rally last night.

You don't have to like his lefty politics to appreciate his skill as an orator. He is undoubtedly an asset to the Leave campaign. (Sorry to keep harking back to Scotland 2014, but Galloway was, by a country mile, the most impressive speaker at the single most informative of all the TV debates. He tied wee nippy in knots. It was beautiful to watch).

Sadly the Leavers seem determined to put ideological purity ahead of actually winning the vote.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So he promised half a loaf, begged for a crust and came back with crumbs. Nothing is worth a candle until it's enshrined in law as the sneaky EU can and will reverse anything he thinks he's achieved. They have form on this.

It will be interesting now Gove has apparently decided which side he's on what Boris and May do. :scratch:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Galloway is very unpopular though. The Leavers would do better to put calm, moderate and intelligent people forward as the face of their campaign rather than people like Galloway! If you're going to have a debate where one side are the likes of David Cameron and Alan Johnson and the other side consists of Farage and Galloway then you're going to look like the fruitcake campaign.

Galloway is a skill orator but who does he convince? Plus at some point he'll probably claim the EU is some sort of Zionist conspiracy and you would have that to deal with.

---------- Post added at 10:23 ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 ----------

May is backing IN and so is Sajid Javid. The latter is a big bigger because he is definitely not a fan of Europe.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Thursday 23rd June for the referendum.

Maybe I'm just the cynical type but during his announcement that a pile of horse deal is actually a good thing he said that he would 'do his best' to deliver what the UK public want. Getting ready for a out vote but then stalling and not actually leaving?

Anyway I'm off to troll my SNP supporting Facebook pals as to why one Union is a terrible idea but another is brilliant and should be fought for at all costs.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

"Safer, stronger and better off"... his first soundbite of the upcoming referendum.

Almost as dire as "hard working families" and "protecting those in most need".

:dozey:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yep our Dave is certainly full of vacuous soundbites that's for sure..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This is going to the the biggest thing we get to vote on, and will effect generations to come.

I only hope we get told in Plain English the pros & cons, and not be told in a language that only a few can understand.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I hope we get told THE TRUTH in plain English. Not much hope of that though as it's going to be a few months of mudslinging, lies, half truths and vague assumptions from all and sundry.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Smoke, mirrors and snake oil.:(

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not a chance. The three million jobs will vanish if we leave will get trotted out and all the regions will moan about losing EU funds, conveniently forgetting about the UK contributions that will no longer be going to European farmers and the like.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Or in other words, EU leaders will think about it again then implement the new regulations anyway, therefore this is a non starter.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Bye-bye EU

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm afraid I have no faith whatsoever our glorious Euro-leaders' ability to steer the EU in anything other than a meandering but unstoppable heading for the edge of a precipice.

The EU doesn't work and can't, I believe, be reformed. Turkeys would be more likely to vote for Christmas than the Eurocrats admit their mistake! Their handling of the migration crisis has been as pathetic as it is dangerous and even now there's no real plan to solve the problem. If ever there was a time for the EU to prove itself this was it but I'm afraid it's been the same old story of dithering, squabbling, ineptitude, duplicity, intractable dogma and head in the sand politics.

The UK doesn't need to withdraw from Europe, it needs to withdraw from a fundamentally flawed organisation called the EU.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Here's a different slant.

Given all that we now know about the EU

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Ermmmmmm..............










:nono:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not relevant as new entrants have to promise so much more beyond that we currently have to follow. Like for example Schengen and joining the Eurozone.

I'll now sit back and look forward to all the scaremongering from both sides.. :rolleyes:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It will be interesting to see how member of the public react when they hear the details of the deal.

Interesting too that the Cabinet itself is split on the benefits of staying in the EU. I suppose Boris will vote with Dave...eventually

Unlike previous elections all voters really need to ask searching questions particularly about the financing of the EU and what the deal means for migration.

A lot will find, as some have said, that the changes are so minor that the EU will merely carry on business as usual wasting taxpayers money.

The problem for the public is that there are so many vested interests all trying to get the decision to go their way. David Cameron and the Consrvatives obviously want it to go their way but so do the SNP and the Lib Dems. UKIP obviously want to get us out. Big companies want us to stay in but small businesses want us to leave. The other EU countries want us in as they will have to make up the UK contribution if the UK leaves.

There's also the issue of trust. Can you really rely on politicians to tell the truth? Or will they simply act in their own personal or party interests. Most of us will have to rely on the pundits and the media for help in making a decision.

It might well be worth remembering too that when Edward Heath took us into Europe it was on a trading basis in what was known as the Common Market. Nothing was said then about political union, at least not to the public.

I'm just wondering if, following the Maestricht treaty, we are perhaps no longer able to leave the EU but no-one wants to admit that.

The next few months will no doubt the filled with vigorous campaigning with the usual scaremongering on both sides, indeed the old "leap in the dark" mantra if we leave as already been requoted.

The floating voters will be crucial. I'm just hoping that they are willing to do the necessary research to understand the issues and the significance of the vote, rather than vote to stay because it feels safe and comfortable.

It will be very interesting to see how this all turns out.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This entire deal means essentially nothing.

It is not legally binding.

It will not be discussed in the European Parliament until after the referendum at which point it may be amended or, indeed, rejected entirely.

There is absolutely no reason for the members of the European Parliament to acquiesce to anything they may consider goes against their own constituents' interests post-vote.

It should be remembered that some members of the EU Parliament do actually represent their constituents there, rather than being like my local Labour MEP and representing the EU to his constituents.

The emergency brake is not in the interests of the rest of the EU. We remain in they've no reason to agree to it, especially not the Eastern European nations. The same thing goes for the child benefit changes.

France especially, along with others, will likely seek to render the handbrake on contentious financial regulation impotent. They look with jealousy at the City of London and want the money there for their own purposes.

The opt-out from ever closer union is not new. Neither does it actually mean anything. If we do not join with ever closer union we'll just become even more of a money tap on the sidelines.

For anyone who is concerned about the terms of this deal there is only one certain path, voting to leave. This entire renegotiation has been a waste of the politicians' time and a whole bunch of taxpayers' money.

I have a whole bunch of words for those Conservative MPs who have put career before either belief or the opinions of their local associations and can only wish them every failure when they are next looking for votes. Not that it actually matters of course given they seem set on wanting to abrogate their responsibilities to the EU.

Labour are a joke and know they are a joke, hence why they're so desperate to abrogate responsibility for being the opposition to the EU.

Meanwhile we've Grassroots Out who are seemingly double agents. I presume next on their guest list will be Kim Jong Un.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I want to leave the EU so when we lock some ******* up for their whole life, it means they come out feet first in a box.

Not go to the ECHR, who tell us to release him.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It might have been better to have a poll on what the British people actually wanted from the EU rather than David Cameron decide what he thinks is best for us.

I also found it pretty ironic that Greece of all countries wanted to Veto some of the terms of Camerons requests considering it's own internal affairs.

I can agree that being in the EU might have some advantages but not enough from my understanding to keep my vote for staying in. I think we will do perfectly fine on our own. the EU doesn't like the UK anyway only our money I think it will be a culture shock if we actually left.

If the Polls are correct though seems to be enough voting to keep us in so on wards we go

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The game's up guys. Cameron and the EU have played this all very well for the media. He's got sweet nothing as predicted but that's irrelevant. Any critics of significance have been sidelined. The leave campaign is a divided shambles; presenting George Galloway as a major player LOL.

Most of the undecideds will swing this and the silent majority couldn't give a toss. They will however be afraid of change, big decisions and uncertainty. They either not vote or vote to remain. It's all been well manipulated which is for the best; Britain outside of the EU would be an economic disaster.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

As you evidently know more about the economic scenario if the UK leaves the EU than any expert that's studied the possibilities given your unequivocal guarantee of disaster we'd best all vote to remain.

Mr K has spoken.

---------- Post added at 20:10 ---------- Previous post was at 20:04 ----------

We certainly will be going onwards. If they give us so little when we're 'allegedly' considering leaving can you imagine how it'll be after a vote to remain?

I do agree with Mr K. I think there are enough people who'll vote to remain. The younger generation are either gullible enough and/or stupid enough to think that they receive a net benefit from our EU membership, even though they likely suffer more than most. We know how much many of them like their safe spaces.

The sheeple will probably vote to remain; much of the population is too stupid to see beyond a rosette on a politician let alone be confronted by a question like this, and the EU will take the permission Cameron has delivered them to put the UK in its place.

He will be utterly powerless to protest as his deal is taken apart, and will be unable to oppose pretty much anything.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why would Britain outside of the EU be an economic disaster??

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Interesting viewpoints - those not aligned to your views are 'sheeple', 'too stupid', 'gullible enough and/or stupid enough'.

It's understandable people have strong feelings on the subject, but insulting those who do not have the same views isn't the way forward, imho - it reminds me of the tactics of some of 'Yessers' in the Indy referendum...

Isn't it better to convince people with the arguments pro/con something, rather than being pejorative?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think you overestimate how much people care about the EU either way. There is a small minority who love the EU, a bigger minority who detest the EU and a larger majority who are largely indifferent.

That last demographic will be the key to it and if they perceive any economic risk in leaving the EU they'll probably vote to stay. They'll look at their lives now and ask themselves if they're willing to gone down a unknown path or stick to the one we've got.

It might actually be a lot closer than the polls predict. Europe might be in the midst of a huge migration crisis by the time of the vote and they might swing to leave.

But if Leave does lose then they'll only have themselves to blame. They didn't just get the referendum they wanted they got it at a perfect time. A migration crisis, a poor deal from Cameron, an poor Labour Leader and the Eurozone mess already adding to a population that has never really taken to Europe in the first place. It even seems like a lot of the press is onside!

It may be though that Leave has spent too long talking to themselves for so long they don't understand the concerns of the majority who don't share their obsession with it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Can someone explain why WE, pay the EU. 50 MILLION PER DAY.

Its was reported in Londons papers.

I can quite clearly, see that the UK, is being taken for fools

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

One thing's for sure, it'll be a very sad indictment of the UK electorate if they can't get off their bums en masse and vote in what could well be the most important vote they'll ever have.

Although I feel we need to get out, sadly, if the final result is to stay in I'll feel a bit better if there's been a record turnout. This is momentous.

Frankly I don't understand how anyone of any age can be indifferent to this debate but then the UK has more than its fair share of folk who like to whine a lot but never get off their bottoms and try to do something about it. As for certainty, well nothing's certain irrespective of whether we're in or we're out. Just look what's going on in the EU now as nations basically forget their obligations to the whole and make up their own rules in their own interests. That's how certain life in the EU is.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think the turnout will be fine, relatively speaking, when I say 'care' I mean enough to take the change option rather than the status-quo option. If 'In' wins it won't be because of a love of the EU but because they don't want uncertainty and are relatively fine with their lives.

---------- Post added at 21:45 ---------- Previous post was at 21:42 ----------

Because people have their own things to be getting on with. I doubt the EU is a bit bother to their day-to-day lives. They'll worry about all the other things that are going on: health, jobs, mortgages and so on. They may not like the EU in concept and would probably vote out if they knew it would be an easy process but if there is chance it could impact on them or lead to more uncertainty they may opt to avoid that.

That is the challenge for Leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well we've all got stuff to get on with and there's not a single aspect of our lives that staying in or getting out couldn't well have a major impact on. Whatever their views there's no excuse for not voting even if it amounts to writing "I don't know" on the ballot paper.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We pay that amount because London newspapers say we pay that amount.

Actually the figure is half that amount. As for why you really do need to get your head out of a sandpit and read actual facts and not newspapers trying to sell papers on sensatialisms.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Totally agree with this. To me, the onus is on the Leave campaign to convince with persuasive, fact based arguments. We see so much, on this forum and in the media, of people playing the various emotive angles: nationalism, stupidity, race, etc.

What we need to see are worked examples of economic/social scenarios for Stay and Leave. The can be debated and argued over.

Just resorting to name calling is no way to debate something so important ..

Of course, some delight in the endless posting of the same, mindless hyperbole but I suppose that is to be expected.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Has this been posted yet? :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Could've been phrased better. The sheeple comment was referring to the alarming number of people who vote according to rosette colour rather than the population as a whole.

As far as the younger generation go I should probably stop reading and watching the content I do as it portrays many of those you would expect to be more educated and free-thinking as entitled morons with an intensely egocentric view of the world focused around their own tender feelings.

It was inappropriate to make such a gross generalisation.

Arguments for and against seem largely futile. I have to go along with Mr K on that. We have people who are incapable of making decisions based on basic policies in elections and vote by colour. Something like this we've no chance of anyone making a totally educated decision and many making one that involves no thought at all. The campaigns know this so, already, are doing their utmost to appeal to the basest emotions and lowest common denominators.

This referendum needs to wait until 2017, and boring as it is a decent and lengthy educational campaign, fact-heavy, needs to be run, not a rush to get it out of the way before the warmer weather kicks in and the scary migrant videos start flowing en masse again.

The evidence I'm seen is quite convincing that, all factors taken into account, there is only one decision to be made here. Much of what people may like about the EU can and should be campaigned for by UK politicians and delivered by UK politicians. If Labour are relying on the EU to preserve workers' rights they may want to question their own existence and purpose if they can't be an opposition. If Ken Clarke is so eager for the oldest Parliament in the world to become 'just a Council Chamber in Europe' he may want to rethink why he is part of an institution he considers such a waste of time.

Thanks for pulling me up on my rant and, rightly, holding me to account for it. You kindly gave me the opportunity to withdraw some content, clarify other content, and apologise for other sections. :tu:

---------- Post added at 00:35 ---------- Previous post was at 00:06 ----------

If Leave hadn't been so busy naval gazing and apparently in the case if grassroots out recruiting one of the most disliked politicians in the country, a man with a history of apparent anti-semetism, a liking for working for Iran and others, being something of a fan of organisations on the more Islamist side of the spectrum to come speak they may have made some progress.

It's actually really simple - the economic risk of staying in is huge. The economic risk for the UK as the EU continues political integration, and this will go apace when the UK vote to remain.

There is no reason at all for the member states to be in any way bothered by the protections we already have, there's no way that we're not going to be pushed to the sidelines, but paying the bills, obeying the directives, and increasingly seeing mission creep.

If you think the status quo will still be there in the case of a vote to remain the EU will rapidly begin attempts to either with carrot or stick more closer integrate the UK into the programme.

Anyone who thinks that the UK won't rapidly be pulled further into union and, at every step, Dave will avoid the transference of powers lock is likely wrong.

It's quite obvious how to do this - push the UK onto the naughty boy step, reserve all the 'good bits' to those without this special status. Ensure we get complete and utter excrement and point to that we wanted to be different.

End up with a 2 speed EU indeed. The UK, receiving the bare basics from the legally binding treaties and absolutely nothing else but paying in plenty, then the rest of the EU not on the naughty step.

Any possible reason to get more cash from the UK should be followed up - they aren't going anywhere so why not.

Endgame to annoy the UK enough, knowing that they have absolutely nothing to bargain with, to push us into dropping objections and beginning deeper integration.

Deeper integration of course to follow the style of the Lisbon Treaty, if it involves constitutional change perhaps try a couple of referenda in other countries, wait for them to be lost, then ignore them, rename the project, and allow the nation state politicians to completely ignore the will of their electorate. Maybe even get the UK Prime Minister apparently so embarrassed to be signing after denying the UK a referendum that he did so in a back room, not in the presentation.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Leaving the EU makes no difference to the echr they're entirely different entities I believe, you like myself need to aquaint yourself with some actual facts before reaching a conclusion

---------- Post added at 01:48 ---------- Previous post was at 01:46 ----------

To be fair to Arthur just this once decent hard reliable non biased facts are hard to come by

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think that is what the biggest problem is there isn't enough information as to what actually goes in the EU unless you are pretty clued up on politics.

This is what scares people especially the younger generation. Not having a clue as to what goes on in the EU with pro EU politicians saying it will be bad for the UK to leave and those saying no we need to leave we don't need the EU.

I'm hoping this campaign will enlighten us everything from both sides. I do Agree though that June this year seems close to vote and more time should be given to campaign

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

i just watched Cameron on the Andrew marr show ,he has a very low opinion of our capabilities as a nation ,and i also think its been a very long time since he has been acquainted with the truth -he is all gloom doom smoke and mirrors ,and has still achieved nothing with his negotiations .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Given the migration crisis, the vote was always going to be sooner rather than later. Things are going to get far worse before they get better (if indeed they ever do) and therein lies the reasoning for having the vote as soon as reasonably possible I'd have thought.

What I'd like to know is how both the EU migrants currently living/working in the UK and the UK nationals living/working in the EU will be treated if we were to leave. I'm sure there are all sorts of complications like that to be considered and we're going to be asked to vote before they're sorted out.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

..but you can read basic stuff that gives you some idea not only where the money goes but also what we do and don't get out of the EU.

In simple terms though it's not all about money we pay in, there's money we get paid out, services, rights and a whole lot of other benefits (non social) that makes the whole in/out question extremely complicated.

Reading posts in this thread it's amazing how many people are only looking at facts that support their in/out aspirations instead of looking at the whole picture. Mind you the politicians supporting the in/out camps are just as complicit :rofl:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Thing with a lot of these 'what happens if' questions is that the people best placed to give a concrete answer, i.e the Government and Civil Service, are backing Stay and are unlikely going to want to help ease the concerns of those voting to Leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If we come out then those already here legally will probably be migrated to a permanent residency visa so as long as they stay and don't spend 5+ years outside of the UK (rough guess) then they'll be able to work.

It will though mean that undesirables will be able to be removed a lot easier as such visas can be cancelled unlike the EU rights they have now.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Has been specified then?