Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Other than the anarchists actually saying that they have a presence there and inviting people over to join them :shrug:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

You're being deliberately obtuse (and you know you are)

No one is disagreeing that they are not there, However, please demonstrate evidence of the following:-

French police convinced direct action taken by migrants trying to storm Channel Tunnel is coordinated by anarchists or far-Left activists


Correct, there is none...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I'm sorry. I was simply arguing about them being there. I didn't realise you were arguing about them helping/organizing the migrants actions. Looking back at the thread, it's my bad. :dunce:
You're quite right, no evidence for the latter (yet). Time will tell :)

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Some evidence :)

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Yes, about them assisting in entrance exams. I still can't see anything about them storming the tunnel

(Ps on my phone so may have missed it)!

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

To be fair I wasn't denying that, that was mentioned in the article I linked too.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33861290

And it's only going to get worse unless something is done to stop the flow of economic migrants.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I think they're coming from Syria.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Some will be yes, how many, who knows? The point is not where they're coming from but the numbers are such that they swamping local services and resentment is building. Clearly the numbers in Calais are tiny compared to places like Italy and Greece but it's only a matter of time before they increase as the build-up elsewhere in Europe is released. By waiting for this to happen we are simply storing up more problems and giving the impression that is you try hard enough for long enough you'll get in which simply encourages more people to risk their lives trying the same thing. There's no simple solution but more aid needs to be diverted to problem areas to help those refugees from Syria and the like who can't help themselves.

IMHO tough action will soon or later be required in order deal with inevitable social unrest and to stem the flow of migrants. Avoiding this issue will simply make matters worse and the outcome more difficult.

---------- Post added at 13:39 ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 ----------

This beggars belief:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-33908493

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

With migrants taking upto 3/4 of the new jobs here that will also cause a rise in resentment

:dozey:

Deport the bugger.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Obviously there may be a handful of ones from other countries.

Also they all arrive from Turkey because they travel up though it. However doesn't mean they're from Turkey.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The trouble is migrants can claim to be from anywhere and concoct any story they like about their reasons for leaving. There are millions of displaced Syrians and others from around the globe who want to go elsewhere and wouldn't want to return home if they could find a better life in Europe. Given that being deemed an economic migrant will tend to preclude someone from being granted asylum who on Earth is going to travel all that way and admit that's what they are? Economic migrants aside, if the numbers of genuine refugees continues to increase then we're going to have a similar problem with them, albeit for different and understandable reasons.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I don't know enough about it to be honest. For example how many people are economic migrants using the cover of asylum? Is that a serious problem or doesn't it occur much? It's probably hard to measure for obvious reasons.

This is a good article on the roots they're taking and where they tend up: http://www.economist.com/blogs/econo...ist-explains-6

This too: http://www.economist.com/news/briefi...88-those-peril

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

6 "middle eastern looking" blokes taken away in 'cuffs from a house near us. The second time in a few months.

But this time they also took away the "single mother asylum seeker" that is supposed to be alone in the 3 bedroom house with her 3 kids.

Their direct neighbour reported "strange men" coming and going at odd hours for months.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

It's a European issue that needs a proper European solution. But as usual everybody is playing it off each other.

We think we've got an issue with a few 10's or hundreds getting through the Chunnel or from backs of wagons. Kos, and I was there last year before this all kicked off, are getting thousands turning up.

All European nations need to set up a task force of naval vessels and reception centres, like Australia did. It's the only way short term.

Long term, sort out Syria, Libya, Somalia etc.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33907741

'English mafia' engaged in trafficking migrants:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33909698

Well it's not exactly a surprise that ******* criminals from this side of the water might be profiting from this misery. Still, I'd quite like to know who these 'English Mafia' are.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33982018

This'll be interesting...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

and this man wants to be mayor

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/polit...-a2871701.html

I really thought I couldn't think him more of an idiot after his appearance on Mastermind, I was wrong

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

We cannot reward illegal attempts to gain access to the UK. We need to break the people trafficking networks and send these people back to where they came from if economic migrants and welcome them if genuine refugees.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

"English" as in based in England.
From 2000, BEFORE Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya
Not exactly a new problem.

From 2014.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Yes, I got the 'English' bit thanks. No Scots, Irish, Welsh amongst them then, not to mention all the other nationals who choose to live in the UK (not just England) then?

I'd still rather like to know who they are and whether they have any particular links to the migrants they're assisting or whether they're just **** exploiting a situation.

I was listing to a Hungarian journalist earlier who's spent a lot of time travelling with and interviewing migrants travelling via Serbia and elsewhere. He commented on how there are social media networks set up to help migrants exploit the system and advise them on where to go etc. Now of course this sort of thing is to be expected and is understandable but I do think we need to get to grips with the fact that this is being orchestrated on various levels and the days of small numbers of migrants taking their chances with no idea where they're heading are well and truly over.

Of course we are not yet seeing the huge numbers here but as they are processed and allowed to leave places like Greece, so they will head off to their destinations of choice which will include the UK via Calais. Not only that, but if/when the processing is speeded up, more will be tempted to follow knowing that their journey will be that little bit easier.

This is a European problem and indeed a global issue but if the likes of the EU can't get to grips with it I'd rather like our government to do so sooner rather than later because this is going to mushroom out of control if some order isn't imposed.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The thing is what do we do with all these people who are homeless mostly due to ISIS.

Nobody wants them and I'm sure given the choice they wouldn't be wanting the UK as a whole if they had their own countries back.

The EU needs to look at the bigger picture they need to stop these countries from taking over over countries.

We are no longer in the dark ages where the likes of the Romans ruled the lands taking over countries. The EU is all for picking on countries like Greece but not dealing with the likes of ISIS.

There seems to be a blind eye to all this it wouldn't surprise me if the EU are in talks with the leaders of ISIS and so forth and some deal has been struck in some way because if they really wanted to deal with it like the USA did with saddam and so forth they would

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I am still of the opinion that if your country is under attack and you are able-bodied, you should stay in your country and fight for it.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I'm guessing that's because the majority of migrants stay in England? Illegal immigration is unlikely to be much of a problem to us Celts so we tend to keep out of it.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Illegal immigration is clearly a problem for some people and a money spinner for others and it certainly isn't something exclusive to one nation or another. IMHO amongst all those 'English' people smugglers, there'll be a variety of people doing it for a variety of reasons - some purely for money and some who'll be trying to assist people from their own communities. I'd wager that a good many migrants who've come through Calais wind up across the UK although the majority are bound to be in England.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Well the new master 'plan' seems to involve flying some of those holed up in Calais back home so that their asylum claims can be processed there. There was I thinking that these people were all escaping certain torture or death back home. Maybe things aren't so bad back there after all then or we'll allow people who've abused the system (by failing to claim asylum elsewhere) to go back home and then come back officially in spite of the facts. This is nonsense isn't it? Which economic migrant is going to go back home knowing that being an economic migrant isn't grounds for asylum? Which genuine refugee from murder/torture/rape or whatever is going to go back home to fill in some papers and wait for the wheels to slowly turn?... :rolleyes:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Macedonia declares state of emergency to cope with migrant surge.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34014353

This is going to get seriously nasty sooner or later. The absence of a credible plan to tackle this problem is alarming.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34016448

Seems to me that Germany is now facing the reality of its policy - offering asylum to so many people merely encourages more to follow and eventually sympathies change, opinions harden and something gives. Do we want their problem? Would that be a good idea? Closing the borders will trap large numbers of migrants wherever they are and lead to massive social unrest in those places as desperate people come into conflict with local people/authorities as has clearly been seen in Hungary, Greece, Macedonia, Italy, France and elsewhere.

For me this whole thing has been an entirely foreseeable mess and the lack of any serious commitment to tackle it has well and truly let the genie out of the bottle. Those in power have consistently dodged the difficult questions and we now have masses of desperate people stuck in Europe with no intention of going anywhere else. We might as well forget and asylum process because from where I'm sitting I can't see any of these people ever returning home and I reckon they'll quite understandably be wanting to bring families over at some point too. So let's tell it like it is eh instead of deluding ourselves that this is some sort of temporary issue and that once the dust has settled, millions of people who have become used to life in the west will suddenly want to go back to a land of chaos and ruins.

What are the super rich gulf states doing to help the Syrians I wonder? How many asylum seekers and migrants are they taking? As usual they sit back and let others do the tough work whilst they count their oil dollars and plan their latest spending trips to London. It seems to me that a great deal more pressure has to be applied to the likes of Saudi Arabia to get involved and do something about a crisis which is far closer to them than it is us.

Like so much that is wrong with the EU, theory doesn't work well in practice. Porous open borders have contributed greatly to these problems and the inability of such a large club to take decisive action on anything except the shape of our bananas has allowed this situation to get out of control. Whereas Australia has effectively solved the same problem (albeit on a smaller scale) our EU 'leaders' have compounded it and are still chatting over chilled Chablis and gourmet blinis about what to do whilst the trickle has turned into a flow and now a flood...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Germany and france are the big cheeses in the e.u.If they want to let them stay let them into germany and france only.Other countries should not be forced to take them in if their people do not want to.Something as important as this should maybe go to a referendum.let the people decide and not these bozos in brussels.The s##t has hit the fan now and they are caught like rabbits in the headlight.They never thought this swarm would take place.This problem will not subside.Once you let them in just watch the mass migration heading towards europe.It will make the migration of the wildebeest a pale imitation.:mad:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

At least the wildebeest migration is temporary and they go back.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Quite and what the grand EU pontificators fail to accept and/or acknowledge is that a) separating economic migrants from genuine refugees is very difficult and b) that large numbers of mainly young men who've finally gained entry to the EU and then been deemed economic migrants maybe years down the line aren't going to just pitch up at the airport and get on flights back home.

You simply can't expect such people who've struggled so hard to get here not to fight exceptionally hard to stay and in sufficient numbers they'd be well able to create a substantial amount of disorder in resisting any attempts to remove them. Aside from any disorder just how many legal actions and appeals would result and how many would be deemed by the ECHR or whoever to have established grounds for remaining in the EU despite their illegal origins. This has already been going on for years - it's not exactly unknown.

IMHO anyone who seeks to give the impression that the economic migrants can/will be removed is at best naïve and worst thoroughly disingenuous. They know full well that millions of people will be allowed to remain in the EU in one way or another and many will be economic migrants who had no right to do so. The only thing in question is how big the problem will be allowed to get before effective action is taken.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

This whole question hinges on the seperation of the economic migrants, people who can live at home but want more money, etc, and so leave home to find it and refugees who are escaping war and risk where they live.

The right wing agenda is to blur this distinction and so just say no to anyone wanting to come to the UK. The right wing media also seeks to create a sense of hysteria with regards to this subject so as to validate any policies that may arise to reduce the migrant/refugee intake.

We are more than happy to demand Europe to allow our UK citizens to emigrate to France, Spain, etc. but would be indigant if the reverse happened. Imagine the Daily Mail headlines if the South of England had 400,000 non-English speaking Spanish residents :)

I hear a lot of complaining about how many "migrants" there are, how it is all the EU's fault, how the UK, the 4th richest country in the world, can't help these people, etc but what I don't hear is any constructive discussion on how to start solving the cause of the problem.

Regarding the refugee point, let me ask this question: if you and your family were at risk of being shot, bombed, beheaded, etc where you currently lived, what would you do?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34049512

Let's see then, by making it easier for migrants to come to the EU from all aroun d the world, this wouldn't in any way encourage even more to come here? :spin:

I'm not sure these people understand that there are countless millions of people who'd love to come here for a better life and we can't let them all come just because they want to. So having let 1 million come, 2 million, 3 million, 4 million, 10 million... what do we say the remaining millions and how do we then stop them coming?

What's happening here is that migrants are increasingly resorting to and being allowed to effectively blackmail the EU into accepting them. Those in Calais are a classic example, they'd rather risk their lives and cause all sorts of problems trying to get into the UK when there is nothing preventing them claiming asylum in France if they feel they have a case for so doing.

Imagine the world cup final gates suddenly being made a free event and people encouraged to just turn up - the host city would be deluged wih fans. Imagine then the gates opened up to the countless thousands of desperately keen fans. Would they form an orderly queue and stop trying to enter when the stadium became full or would they just keep on flooding in regardless of the danger to themselves and everyone else?

Whatever anyone thinks about the need to help genuine refugees and how we deal economic migrants we cannot help them all and the more we dither and create the impression that we will, the more they will come and add to the problem. To imagine anything else is naïve and to imagine that host communities are going to happily accept the effects of millions of migrants adding to their woes is as ridiculous as it is dangerous.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

the vast majority of the brits who live abroad are either rich,retired or crooks.very few I imagine are claiming benefits from the host country.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Neither are the vast majority of Brit expats breaking the law, flouting the rules, forcing their way into trucks, trains, tunnels etc. etc etc.

What I would do may well be exactly the same but I certainly would not expect the host communities I was forcing myself upon to smile and just suck it up ad infinitum. How many times would you let a desperate homeless person in the UK accost you for money without changing your route or calling the police? What would you do if that homeless person threatened to throw themselves under a bus if you refused to help them or the one you helped yesterday brought his mates along for help the next day and the day after? We can have as much sympathy for these people as we like but we cannot help them all and the more we try to help the more there will be. It's not pleasant but it's a fact and you would no more share or turn over your home to desperate migrants than I would so how far does your sympathy go and how are you going to prevent it from being abused if you just open the doors to everyone who might want to come in?

In spite of all the sympathy some folks like to profess they have when referring to countless thousands of migrants being allowed into the EU, if even something as trivial (relatively) as their journey to work was delayed every day (as has been the case with the tunnel lately) it wouldn't take too long for all that sympathy to turn to anger.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34061532

CNN currently showing footage of the growing problem in Hungary where record numbers of migrants are trying to force their way into the country from Serbia. Zoltan Kovacs, a Hungarian government spokesman said that people from over 67 countries are coming into Hungary (141,000) and the vast majority of them are not entitled to refugee status. About 30% originate from Syria. The EU's system for handling and dispersing refugees cannot cope with the numbers and there's a huge problem with what to do about economic migrants.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The biggest problem here is not the amount of migration. Its the traffickers that should be found and stopped.

It was said recently, that there are BRITISH traffickers organising things. And sadly when they do reach the UK, which they will. Its us that will pick up the tab.

What this country has to do is employ Border agents, and check every lorry coming into the country. And the channel tunnel has to be double checked.

It will get worse.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Pick up what tab ?

If they claim asylum they get a very limited amount until they're claim is processed/decided

If they don't claim asylum then the only thing I can think of is nhs treatment

So it's probably more expensive to go the route you suggest

But then, it's not about the money is it Arthur ? You little englander you

---------- Post added at 23:14 ---------- Previous post was at 23:09 ----------

Source that shows the majority of migrants legally or illegally here are breaking the law ? Or is this yet again further verbal diarrhoea?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

"British" as in living in Britain.
From 2000, BEFORE Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya
Not exactly a new problem.

From 2014.
From various official government sources.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Annual net migration hits record high at 330,000.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-politics-live

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

According to what I just heard on Sky news, 3 years ago Hungary saw c. 4-5,000 migrants PA crossing its borders. The figure has for some time now increased to c 2,500 migrants per day which equates to an annualised figure of over 900,000 pa.

If, as the Hungarian Govt. states, 30% of these are Syrians (and therefore understandably at the top of the list for refugee status) that leaves 600,000 who aren't and most of these fall into the economic migrant category. I don't think some people are fully cognisant of the numbers involved, the rate at which the problem is growing and the fact that the hundreds of thousands backed up in places like Turkey, Italy, Greece, Hungary, Serbia etc. are eventually going to wind up elsewhere in the EU. The plight of the Syrians is not only masking the migrant problem but because the system is being swamped it's become an inducement for others to try to get in before it's too late. Not only that but the message is clearly being sent out by migrants (via social media etc.) who've succeeded to others as to where to go, what to say and how best to avoid detection and registration etc.
Look at the footage on TV and the overwhelming majority of those involved are fit young men, not families, children, the aged or the vulnerable and if we're going to care so much about their needs as economic migrants what are we doing about the plight of the really vulnerable who aren't young and fit and are trapped in desperation? If this is all about compassion where's their share?

---------- Post added at 10:39 ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 ----------

That being the official figure which will almost certainly be an underestimate.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

At the newly-reduced rates they get slightly more than jobseekers allowance, but get free accomodation, gas, electricity and water. So far better off than a jobseeker.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

:tu:

Or a homeless 'vet' who's living on the streets in the UK and begging to survive or a guy who's been kicked out of the family home following a split and is living in a car. Not so much sympathy or support for them eh?

If we're going to hand out shelter and support (however modest) to people who're illegal economic migrants (and I believe we shouldn't), I'd prefer it if we dealt with the needs of our own desperate, hungry, homeless people first but hey they're not in the news and who's speaking up for them? Maybe they need to gang up en masse, head down to London and threaten to jump in the Thames in order to get some help.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Separate figures, published by the OECD, show that almost 1.3million Britons with university-level education are living abroad, more than any other developed economy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ent-drain.html

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Yes its probably substantially much more then that.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Indeed. It's very unfortunate. They are now contributing to those economies rather than the one which educated them.

If you could explain the relevance of emigration of highly skilled Britons to unskilled economic immigrants to the UK that'd be great.

You seem to be trying to set up a straw man involving little Englanders and dislike of all immigrants. Even UKIP don't oppose all migration. They just want a points based system and work permits, which seems quite reasonable.

Canada is hardly famed for xenophobia. Try migrating there if you're unskilled. Try getting a permit to work there if there are Canadians who could do the job.

We have businesses screaming about a lack of skills despite record migration figures. Clearly the migration we are getting is not what our economy needs.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

... and growing.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Lets just get a few of your assumptions corrected here.

1) Im not trying to setup any straw men whatsoever.

2) Im not against a reasonable migration policy using a points based system. but i firmly believe we need to be more accomodating to those that potentially are coming from war torn/human rights breaches areas of the world. I'm a firm believer in innocent until proven guilty and i think there are those on this thread who without saying out loud would portray all of those at calais as an economic migrant.

3) If 1.3m Brits with a university degree left to go to another country to my mind there can only be one reason, that of economics

4) If 1.3m Brits with a university degree left and can make a contribution to another country, how many low paid workers tried to move.


So, what's the difference between a British person moving abroad for reasons of self improvement and that of someone trying to get here from Calais? Surely the only difference is that of the route/method taken.

Also, there is no actual crime of illegal immigration. it's what a person does when they get here that constitutes the offence.

PS if Britain is dying out for skilled workers, why dont we just stop people emigrating?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Precisely.

I have no idea how many low paid workers tried to move although would suggest that trying to move is irrelevant. I would speculate not that many given that we're in a relatively good place for job availability and many other places likewise in a good place aren't in the habit of importing unskilled labour en masse.

There are an awful lot of things in this world where the outcome is the same but the route/method make a lot of difference.

Actually yes, there is.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/i...tion/#entering

I imagine this is because we aren't a fascist state. At least, not yet.

This is subject to change of course.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Apologies, you're right, I should of made myself clearer... No offence is commited by them entering British soil, it's the fail to claim that then causes the no leave offence.


To the bolded part, why then are 1.3m migrating?

How exactly does the route/method make a difference? It's a means to an ends. The end objective is the same.

A lot of people seem to make the assumption that every person in places such as Calais are unskilled and potentially low paid employees despite well publicised news reports highlighting highly skilled people such as Dr's etc. that are there.

We as a nation are as guilty of economic migration as those that currently live in squalor. The only difference as we have already agreed is the route taken. Whilst we do it on commercial airlines they asphyxiate in the back of HGV's drown as boats capsize.

My biggest annoyance seems to be the attitude taken (not just on here) that lets let every other country deal with it so long as it doesn't affect us.

People need to realise that this is a an issue that requires a different thought process to lead to resolution. The current stance of stamping feet whilst putting fingers in hears and shouting 'La la la I can't hear you' isn't going to work.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34073534

Wonder what the true figures are.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

No. These people must claim asylum at the border. If they do not and pass the UK border they are breaking the law.

If these people were to obtain entry to the UK, for example in the back of a truck, the moment that truck has been allowed through by an immigration officer if they haven't claimed asylum they have broken the law as they are in the UK 'without leave'.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/77/section/24

Entering the UK = crossing the border. Not claiming asylum at the border but getting across it without approval from an immigration officer is an offence.

---------- Post added at 17:36 ---------- Previous post was at 17:29 ----------

No. Generally we apply to the government of the country in question for permission to migrate. We obtain work permits, perhaps permanent residency.

There's an awful lot of difference between that and arriving at the border, trying to circumvent our lawful processes by claiming asylum.

Any economic migrant who tries to claim asylum as a way of circumventing the appropriate processes should be returned to their point of origin immediately.

If these people want to migrate to the UK for economic reasons they should be applying for visas. If they can pay people smugglers to try and get them into the UK they can pay visa processing charges.

Exactly the same goes for any British who attempt to circumvent the rules of a potential host nation. It's disrespectful to those whose legitimate claims to refuge they are copying, it's disrespectful to those legitimately applying for economic migration and it's disrespectful to the host nation to start off a relationship with it by flouting its laws.

If you think we should reward this illegal behaviour that's entirely your prerogative. I personally believe a zero-tolerance approach to people smuggling would be a good start alongside a pan-European plan to utterly reject abuse of the asylum system while doing everything within our power to fulfil our humanitarian obligations to those in need.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

EU president says Calais migrant crisis is BRITAIN'S problem - not the EU's

EU boss Jean-Claude Juncker today took a thinly-veilled sideswipe at Britain and France saying the Calais migrant chaos was all their fault and NOTHING to do with the European Union.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/601...TAIN-S-problem

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Does that idiot think this problem has nothing to do with the EU's much bigger migrant problem? All that's happening in Calais is, currently, a much smaller scale version of what's happening in Italy, Greece, Hungary and other EU countries. Trickle down. Does Juncker believe that's not the case and it's their fault too? :rolleyes:

IMHO open borders is one of the main reasons for this crisis and what best characterises the Eurocrats is a complete refusal to accept responsibility for any negative consequences arising from their utter fixation with a single European state. Until they're forced to accept reality and start dealing with the problems at source there will be ever more migrants and ever more tragic deaths. Germany will not continue to soak up vast numbers of migrants (whether genuine refugees or illegals) and nobody else wants a similar problem so what's Juncker going to do about that?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34083337

There's been lots of talk about getting tough with people smugglers and traffickers, well I hope that those proved responsible for this receive the harshest possible punishments.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Attachment 26294

Welcome to the future of the European union.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Vietnamese!.That's some journey.:confused:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Interesting that the group was all male. Odd for refugees; you'd have thought there'd be women and children there too.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Vietnamese are often behind wacky baccy production in europe, brought in by gangs.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Given the huge number of truck movements crossing the channel, I reckon those apprehended in this manner represent the tip of an iceberg the scale of which we can only guess. By dodging this issue for many years, all we've done in Europe is allowed it to get out of control and the results are now clear for all to see with tragic results on both sides.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34110406

The definition of chaos.

So Germany has already accepted hundreds of thousands of migrants this year and the result is that more migrants are heading to Germany and they're now struggling to cope. What a complete surprise! :rolleyes:

To those still in denial about the scale of this problem, tell that to the Germans (Europe's largest economy & the world's 4th largest) who're now asking for more help to distribute the migrants around Europe. Quite understandably they want other countries to share the burden yet so far as I can see all that results in is more migrants being encouraged to make the journey with the huge problems that creates in places like Turkey, Hungary, Greece, Italy....

Anyway it's great that there's going to be an 'emergency' EU meeting about all this. Pity it's going to take 2 weeks to sort out but then what do we expect within the EU? Events in Europe in recent years have shown up the Schengen agreement to be just as outdated and open to abuse as the asylum rules are. Who'd have thought eh? :shrug: It's so much more important for tourists to endure checks at borders and it's not as though this problem has been going on for years and turned a blind eye to in any way is it...

IMHO the level of denial, ineptitude and political dithering displayed by the EU in respect of this issue is both staggering and alarming.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I don't think one person on this thread who has denied that there is an issue or the scale of the issue. The disagreements are based on those who want to 'shut up shop' and those that want to show a little more compassion to our fellow man.

Lets not forget, we need to hold ourselves accountable for a good percentage of this, due to our actions in certain countries (Libya, Syria, Iraq to name but three)

PS it's Schengen II the original was quite a while ago IIRC

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34113471

Not to worry, though, the Eurocrats are having an emergency meeting in 2 weeks time...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://10news.dk/?p=1701

They may be fleeing for their lives or wanting to make a better life for themselves but many of these people from muslim countries will be very religious, do we really want those that agree with death for apostasy, Sharia law and forcing their wives and daughters to obey them in the west.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

i certainly don't we have enough of our own idiots to contend with

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Being more than a little cold when they elected to head to Germany there was a good case for describing them as economic migrants.

Refugees are fleeing from somewhere, not fleeing to somewhere. These people have gone through multiple 'safe' countries before reaching Europe, ignoring the trip across the Schengen area to Germany.

The UK is not a part of Schengen, the UK does not have an obligation to take refugees from France or anywhere else in the EU. The UK provides more humanitarian aid than any other nation in the EU, and has taken millions of economic migrants from Europe in the past decade already.

Feel free to self-flagellate over all this if you want. None of the actions in the Middle-East were done in my name, I had no power to influence them, and have no interest in supporting bad policy to try and atone for bad policy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...t-borders.html

---------- Post added at 11:18 ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 ----------

Tad late for that. Seen the results of social attitudes surveys of British Muslims?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Just been listening to a Hungarian MEP interviewed on Radio 5 and quite predictably the authorities there are seeing a dramatic increase in fake Syrian ID papers, passports etc. Now why would that be I wonder? Possibly because the authorities have sent out a clear message that Syrians will be accepted as genuine refuges? Of course there'll be entirely genuine Syrians who can't prove that's what they are so how is anyone supposed to determine the truth? Apparently the authorities in Vienna have requested the Hungarians to stop allowing migrants through. Not much sign of 'sharing the problem' there then...

He also confirmed the presence of a great many people from places like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Serbia and Albania who are nothing more than economic migrants and rightly pointed out that there needs to be a programme for ensuring their return to their places of origin in order that the genuine refugees can be properly dealt with.

Yvette Cooper seems to believe that the UK could easily take and support a few thousand refugees and she could be right. However, if she feels so strongly about that what did she do about dealing with the UK's very own homeless and destitute when her party were in power? It's not as though Labour eradicated that sort of appalling deprivation in their own back yard is it...

Meantime:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34128263

The thing is, once you've allowed a whole lot of desperate people so far they don't take kindly to being told they can go no further and I can understand that. They've already made their minds up about where they want to go and are unlikely to accept anything else. Therein lies another problem, we seem to be allowing the migrants to determine the action the EU takes rather than the other way around. Don't be too surprised therefore that many of them will choose to resume their journeys to Germany, Sweden, the UK or wherever in spite of where they may be offered 'sanctuary'. Short of putting them in secure compounds there's currently no way to stop these people going where they want and if that's Germany, no amount of words from Merkel about burden sharing, is going to stop them. That's what's been happening in Calais for years and maybe she needs to focus on that.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

It really does give those of a more xenophobic bent copious amounts of ammunition.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

On this subject Cameron is quite right:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34130067

Europe is facing a deluge of migrants and it's only going to get bigger unless we a) get tougher on illegals, traffickers etc. and b) spend more of our foreign aid assisting the countless refugees stuck in places like Jordan. We seem to have so much of a problem deciding what to spend the ring fenced budged on that we wind up handing it over to other people to do it for us. Whys isn't this money being spent alleviating the problems in places like Turkey and Jordan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...sing-time.html

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

As citizens of this country, those actions were taken in our names regardless of if we agreed with them or not. I challenge you to state categorically that the actions we have taken in some of these countries have not had a direct impact in the flow of migrants to the EU

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34115570

Well why bother having plans eh? :rolleyes:

It was as foreseeable as Greece's economic woes yet nobody wanted to hear anything which might show up the EU for what it has become.

Well now the reality is starting to focus a few of the 'great minds' who led us down this route without a plan. Now the Germans and Swedes are realising that being so generous to refugees has created a tidal wave they cannot stop and they want others to relieve them of the problem their own policies created. What they failed to take on board is that we're not dealing with a finite number of refugees from one or two troubled countries we're now dealing with people from all over Africa and as far afield as Asia who believe that if they come here they will be allowed to stay. There are countless millions of such people and yet we have no plan for dealing with them as and when they decide that life's better here than there.

Chaos without a plan...

I'll be interested to see how Merkel decides to a) remove the economic migrants that Germany has already admitted and b) prevent yet more from turning up on their borders demanding their right to a better life.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Why would I say something that clearly isn't true?

Doesn't change my opinion of how we should be managing this. The weak response thusfar has been a disaster and turned a flow into a torrent.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-eu-34128087

Doesn't look like the Czechs are going to sharing the burden then. Wonder if Merkel will threaten them...

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I NEVER thought that l would ever say this. But, l agree with what David Cameron has said in the news today.

However, what each country SHOULD be doing is, try harder where these traffickers are and where they are.

We are only a few country, in the middle of a giant ocean. But it does not help when the clergy get involved and say that we should take more people in.

He should go to Calais, and see the people trying to get into the UK - they are not going anywhere else apart from the UK.
If people are in France, Germany wherever, then in up to that country to look after them

If we start taking in more and more people, when it end. They don't look after there own people

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Maybe the clergy could open up the churches to them as they are mostly empty except for a sunday when i do not suppose the muslims would want to attend the christian service.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Most of the sorts of church buildings you're thinking of would be quite unsuitable. Fret not, however, Christians have been at the forefront of this sort of thing for quite some time. See YMCA, amongst many others.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34142512

Seems like he's taking a leaf out of the Mayor of Calais' book then. Germany welcomes them (probably not for much longer) so they're responsible for the deluge...

It's ironic that the UK is often told it's our fault that migrants want to come here so much (e.g. generous benefits, big black economy, no requirement to carry ID etc.) and that we need to be tougher but then, when it suits the French, Germans, or whoever, we're told we should accept more of them... :spin:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Very good news.

Fulfilling some of our humanitarian obligations and simultaneously minimising economic migrants coming to the UK by abusing the Syrian crisis.

Also gives the message that we will come to those in need, rather than them paying people traffickers.

I don't think anyone can have many complaints about this. We can cope with 10,000 refugees. A far better approach than those our continental European neighbours appear to want to take.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

What l believe each country. should be trying to find out who these traffickers are.
In fact that poor father who lost his family, actually said that he paid money to traffickers who left them stranded on the boat

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

They were being trafficked from Turkey I believe, is turkey not safe for refugees anymore?

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Cameron has blinked.Man of straw.One day of media pressure.Pathetic.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

he talks a good fight but never comes out of his corner to start round one ,he just chucks the towel in .

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I am waiting before I make that decision about his actions.

The liberal and Left brigade are also making a lot of noise about opening the borders and letting them all in. A picture of a dying 3 year old was a huge gift for the liberal press.

It looks like Cameron has given in to the pressure will take a 'number' from the camps near the Syrian border, these are more likely to be genuine asylum seekers than those in France and Hungary.

What I am waiting for is what his actions will be after we takes these asylum seekers. I am hoping he will then give a firm message that we have done our bit and then increase security and deal with any illegal entries into our country in a swift manner.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

This really is only the start of a huge problem. For those who manage to get to where they want to be it's great and many of them deserve our help and support but for there's millions left behind, the vast majority of whom will have reasons for wanting to come to the EU which are entirely understandable but don't amount to refugee status.

What's needed is a serious plan to cope with refugees closer to home and some of our generous aid budget should be allocated to doing that. What's also needed is a credible system to define and separate refugees from economic migrants in order to stem the flow of the latter.

The deaths of men, women and children won't stop because the EU takes a 1,000, a 100,000 or 1,000,000 Syrians because the world is full of poor, desperate people and they too will feel they have a right to come here too. They'll see what's going on, they'll see large numbers of people getting through and they too will decide to take their chances. Unless we do something about that they will come in ever increasing numbers. and we have to have a plan for dealing with them. That is undeniable and I have yet to hear the likes of Merkel and Junker explain what they propose we do. They haven't because they've got no idea what to do and that just about sums up the EU for me.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...-way-life.html

Read this.i know the daily mail is not everbodys cup of tea but max hastings is a respected historian.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I listened to the father recounting his story of what happened (R4 yesterday) and it raised a couple of questions in my mind:
He said that his wife and children (suddenly?) died whilst on the boat.......what of?
He said that the captain of the boat saw the huge waves and "jumped overboard"......why would he do that? It makes no sense for someone who is relatively safe on a boat to jump overboard into the water :confused:
The other question I have is that a poor boy is washed up on a beach from a boat somewhere in the Med and the father is immediately on hand. That's an amazing coincidence. How the hell did they find him so quickly? :confused:

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I want to know who's going to manage the quotas and how they're intending to keep people who want to go to Germany or the UK, for example, within in the likes of Lithuania, Hungary, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Croatia, Bulgaria, Estonia, Slovenia and Romania. Without the will and the ability to keep those people where they're sent, by force if necessary, any quota system is complete nonsense or am I missing something?

It seems to me the proof of what I'm saying is evident in Hungary and Calais right now - those people are safe, could claim asylum etc. but want to go somewhere else so much that they're prepared to risk their lives even when they're already in the EU.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I'd allow a little for translation error; the report I saw certainly didn't suggest the wife and children were already dead before they went into the water.

Beyond that, I suspect all this happened reasonably close to shore, and the smuggler piloting the boat always intended to jump ship and swim back to Turkey as soon as it was away. That would also explain how the father was back so quickly, and how his children washed up so soon. :(

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

David Cameron has a difficult balance to strike on this. Most of us don't want him to be a pushover in respect of EU countries demanding that we 'take our share' and hopefully he will be able to persuade them that they should be taking into account the number of migrants being accepted by countries over the last decade. I think we may top that list.

But he does need to take account of UK public opinion, which is changing rapidly. He does represent us, after all.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

The refugee issue is meant to come from WW2. How many refugees were there from the battle zones and where did they tend to go? They didn't go in large numbers to "safe" adjoining countries. They just went away from the immediate area. The whole of Syria etc is NOT a battle zone, therefore there are safe places even within Syria itself. Rarely is any country under fire throughout. How many are going to Lebanon which is right next door.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

WW2 was overwhelmingly fought on identifiable battlefronts between opposing, uniformed, disciplined armies. Syria is an asymmetric war and there are at least three or four major factions, many of them not in uniform, not in any way disciplined and, in the case of ISIS, rather fond of brutalising civilians. I would be very careful about trying to apply the situation in Europe in 1945 to Syria in 2015.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I was wondering about the possibility of translation error.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I note various local authorities are saying they're willing to step in and can accommodate refugees if that's decided. If that's the case why haven't they been equally willing to assist the homeless, destitute and desperate people they already have?

It strikes me that a lot of people are suddenly getting caught up in a wave of 'sympathy' and acting in a manner which isn't logical and is largely media induced. It won't be too long before there'll be people protesting that migrants have been found homes etc. whilst so many of our own people can't get them and are just as desperate.

I just hope that nobody is expecting large numbers of migrants to head back home if/when things settle down. That will be what our glorious leaders tell us but I think they'll be in the EU to stay.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

I doubt either side has the numbers to deal with that widespread a battle. The front lines are where any fighting is going to happen. Why not stay behind and outnumber ISIS?

It is a general principle that any conflict will not be happening throughout a whole country and there will be safe places to be somewhere in that country.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

So what is your definition of a refugee? Or are you thinking of migrants?Even the BBC seems to be referring to refugees as migrants..

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

So it takes a picture of a dead child to shame Cameron into taking action:

David Cameron: UK to accept 'thousands' more Syrian refugees

"World Leader"? I think not ..

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

No - it takes a picture of a dead child to shame the public into demanding action.

We live in an age of triangulation. Our senior politicians follow public opinion. They rarely attempt to lead it. Here in Scotland, Sturgeon has shown herself the worst of the lot, jumping, moist-eyed, right on the bandwagon of that public opinion and using it as yet another opportunity for her favourite pastime (it's called "bash the evil Toe-reyyys and hope nobody notices what a mess we're making")

We need to take a long, hard, collective look in the mirror, and stop pointing the finger. This has been going on for many months. It has led the news, on and off, for many months. We *all* knew what was happening. Yet only this week is my Facebook feed overloaded with hand-wringing petitions on Change.org.

We get the government we deserve.

Re: Unstoppable migration?
 

Migrants is a general term. I separate the economic migrants from those genuinely fleeing conflict whom I would refer to as refugees. In practice that isn't easy however because anyone can claim to be fleeing conflict, persecution etc. and plenty of economic migrants do exactly that. Some of them are refused asylum if/when they get around to claiming it, others successfully obtain asylum under false pretences. We have no idea exactly how many.

I also realise that the really vulnerable (i.e. those with little or no money) are the least able to get to places like Greece, Italy, Turkey and Hungary. Nobody seems to be worrying too much about their plight right now, how many little boys and girls are dying and not featured in the media? Therein lies the problem the EU faces and has ducked for quite some years now, despite the evidence before their eyes that things were steadily getting worse.

At some point we're going to have to come up with the means and the political will to separate genuine refugees from economic migrants. Furthermore we're going to need to accept that we can't take in everyone deserving of our help. That's not a nice thought but it's reality I'm afraid.

---------- Post added at 13:36 ---------- Previous post was at 13:02 ----------

It's called jumping on the bandwagon. Not that long ago it was ISIS murders which were the media was fixated upon, now it's migrants. People are still being burned, shot, buried alive, drowned, thrown off buildings, hanged, beheaded etc. but they're no longer newsworthy and nobody's raising petitions about their plight. Who raised a petition about the girl (and all those like her) who was murdered on camera and the subject of a recent thread here? Where were the politicians condemning that? Where was the national 'sympathy' we're currently seeing?

I reckon in the not too distant future most of those who've signed petitions and said how awful it all is will be more concerned about preparing for Christmas than the plight of migrants. Years ago it happened with the Biafran famine and it's been going on ever since. Outpourings such as this make people feel less guilty and it gives opportunistic politicians a stick to beat their opponents with until the next one comes along. Very few people will actually do something about the problem despite the fact that they could afford to give donations direct to those organisations currently dealing with this mess on the ground. Signing a petition's so much easier than signing a cheque...