Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

No Scotland means no Great Britain, so I suppose it could be the United Kingdom of England* and Northern Ireland.





*[The Kingdom of England included Wales ;)]

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Compared to 100% with us :)

A lot of people were put off getting prescriptions due to the price and not knowing if they qualified for not paying for them. When they became free more people had their meds, more people got better. Job done!

Fixed that for you :)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Welsh 'toffs' getting free prescriptions must make the poor in Wales feel a lot better. ;)

I Prefer the English version where those who can easily afford to pay do and the rest don't.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Fractional United Kingdom. They'd have to take inspiration from Hyacinth Bucket on the pronunciation of the abbreviation though :p

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I think UK should be renamed 'England with Knobs on'. :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

We should call ourselves Scotland and demand that the old Scotland change their name.

Or keep the UK but use it to refer to the Union + Scotland just to confuse Americans even further about the difference between the UK, Great Britain, the British Isles and so on.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

My Dad is Scottish, my Mum is English. I have large families both north and south of the border. I don't hate the English, I love them. I was born in Falkirk but hold a British passport. This debate is crazy :)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

:tu:

Well only some 'contributors' to the debate are crazy to be fair... :)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You're aware that prescriptions in Wales are free regardless of financial situation right?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Let's not stray too far from el topic, eh?;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

So, the latest developments in the whole separatist fantasy.

BP's boss warns of 'uncertainties' because of the referendum:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26028481

Sainsbury's boss points out that groceries will get more expensive, if English supermarkets stop subsidising the higher costs of distribution in Scotland:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b8f05d3c-8...#axzz2sNd5w9DQ (registration required to view the FT, I'll find a better link as the story spreads).

As referendum day looms, the facts are coming home to roost. We have a successful, well-integrated and efficient union. It may not be perfect, but it works, and it works well. The alternative will be a costly mess.

The only sane vote is 'NO'.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Deary me Chris,you just don't have a clue,do you!!!
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Nothing like a well-reasoned rebuttal, supported by evidence... :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

But what about the points he raised? Rather than give a "I'm right, you're wrong" response can you offer anything to counter them?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Jeez,I had hardly typed out a reply tae Chris (cable forum mod) when two more mods jump in like a shot,are you both off your rocker.:)
Anyway,I have given my reasons,what I will say is this,I posted on Twitter to an number of followers that the 'Dirty Tricks' mob would be out in force over the next few months,any neutral looking in on this debate would clearly see how frightened you are,you are but won't admit it,aren't you.
A 5% swing ing the polls will have Better Together in a complete panic,you all thought at the outset that it would be a formality but now you all have squeaky bums,get used tae it chaps,our day will come,mark my words.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Mods are allowed to have opinions too.

You could have saved yourself time and effort by simply replying "no".

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

sorry, I can't understand what you're saying.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I doubt he can either... :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I cannot wait for the referendum, especially if its a NO.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

"Jimi" - you're not "Tommy" the "Taxi driver" are you?

The scourge of phone ins the length and breadth of Britain?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Got to laugh at your debating style - anyone who disagrees with your views or your approach in discussions is a member of the 'dirty tricks' brigade.

So we are 'frightened' because we think it would be more interesting if you took part in a reasoned discussion, rather than your usual diatribes, ad hominem attacks, and circular reasoning?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

No comprende Senor.;)

---------- Post added at 22:50 ---------- Previous post was at 22:47 ----------

I cannot wait for the referendum,especially when it will be YES.
:D

---------- Post added at 22:51 ---------- Previous post was at 22:50 ----------

A thoroughly nice bloke is Tommy,catch his show anytime after midnight.

---------- Post added at 22:57 ---------- Previous post was at 22:51 ----------

Calm down now Hugh,you are getting rather hot under the collar,I'm as entitled tae my views the same as everyone else on CF.
As for reasoned discussion,why is Cameron so scared of having a debate with Alex Salmond,eh,I'll tell you why,because Salmond would tie him in knots.
Nicola Sturgeon has already shown up the BT mob 3 times on TV,Cameron isn't daft,he knows he'd come off second best.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Back to the Ad Hominem attack, I see - 'hot under the collar'...

You are entitled to your views - however, when challenged on your views, you react negatively and with diatribes, rather than reasoned discussion.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Personally I don't give a hoot about what happens, however you are the only person I have come across from Scotland who wants to break away, so I fully expect Scotland to carry on as it is today, So what are you going to do when you lose Jimi and realise you are in a minority?

Btw the use of tae rather than to makes it difficult to take you seriously.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Dirty tricks brigade??

Sorry but those were facts from businesses as reported on the news.

The only dirty tricks here are those being flung out by Salmond and the SNP.

---------- Post added at 08:55 ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 ----------

He seems to think that one word makes him sound Scottish.:rolleyes:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Meanwhile on planet Earth...

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I'm honestly quite nervous about the vote. With all the nonsense surrounding it i think a lot of people aren't taking it seriously enough. If the vote ends up yes then Salmond and his cronies could well end up completely breaking everything. What happens then? Does he or his successor beg to be let back into the UK? I doubt they would take us back lol.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Kabaal, what are we breaking extactly?? other than removing ourselves from a union drawn up hundreds of years ago i.e. in bibilcal times.

We have all the ingredients necessary to move forward with this like, we did in the 70's when we DID vote for indenpendance, but again due to a "technicality" it was not fullfilled.

p.s. to answer your question, no I don't thknk we would be aloud back in. We made our bed and we have to sleep in that...I can accept that responsbility

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Biblical times were 2000 years ago.

Do you really think Scotland could sustain its own economy?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

:D Sorry, I should have said we joined a union in a generation which is completly socially and techinically outdated compared to today's era and standards.

Yeah, I do believe this...I really cannot see why not.

Other than indivduals, orgainsations and companies, who have power and wealth to loose and may cost them hundreds of millions ££ of restructuring.

Do you think we live in a society focussed and fueled on personal gain?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Even though various business leaders and company chairmen have cast serious doubts? These people have no real reason to lie or mislead.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Its a fair point of which I would find difficult to argue with you.

However, one of there sole responbilities as head of these companies its to protect profits and assests and maximise cashflow where possible which off would be at risk with independance.

Due to the current infructure of the world and way it works/turns over this now, I think its difficult even for anyone to say whats going to happen.

It makes things worse that we may not even keep the pound. Again I say why can we not?

Its more like kids in a sweet shop fighting over which they want rather than sharing and being equal. ( on the pound debate anyway)

Edit...one way of looking at possibly, is BP make more cash when UK is together, a split form the UK would reduce profits. I know if I owned a multimillion company that was at risk of losing money due to the vote, I would doing anything in the intrests of my company.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I thought the BoE Governor explained the pound situation quite well - how can the Scots have independent taxation and the same currency as the rest of the UK?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-25930075

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Erm no, Scotland did not vote for independence in the 1970s. There was a devolution referendum, which was defeated. The "technicality" was a quorum, which is a totally uncontroversial device in decisions involving constitutional change. IMO there should have been one in 1997 as well, although I believe Scotland would have met it. Wales certainly wouldn't and as a result the Assembly came into existence with the active support of fewer than 25% of Welsh voters.

I believe there should have been a quorum for this year's referendum as well. It can in no way be said to be the settled will of the Scottish people to effect permanent, radical constitutional change unless a majority of adults - all of them, not just the turnout - are sufficiently motivated to go out and vote for it.

Permanent and major constitutional changes should be demonstrated by more than 50% +1 of whichever voters turn out on the day. If the result is 49-51 for the union, the separatists will keep agitating forever and a day until they get what they want, arguing that opinions might have changed, but if it goes 51-49 the other way, the destruction of the modern British state will be permanent.

It's all very well you being happy with the consequences but our children have to live in the land we are at risk of birthing this year and we have a responsibility to them.

Cameron has been a pragmatist in allowing the seps to have their referendum, with votes for teens and no quorum, because he knew there was a risk that Salmond the ever-reckless would simply go ahead anyway and plan to try to fight for his result through the courts if necessary. But there is a real risk now, if the result is close, whichever way it falls, of long lasting social damage.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

So you want independence and you want to keep the pound and that will no doubt be another thing where Scotland dictates and gets what it wants in the eye's of the SNP no doubt expecting to have some control over the pound as well. Personally if the majority of Scots want to go it alone then cya good luck and start your own things in all regards not this ridiculous picking and choosing the best bits that Alex Salmond believes everyone is just going to do. I'm not an economist but even I can see the snp's sums don't add up and his expectations are completely unrealistic regarding the political side as well.

If you do vote to leave and when it all goes terribly wrong you shouldn't be allowed back into the union unless we vote to allow Scotland back in your not just messing about with something small and you keep whatever debt you run up.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You do know we have houndreds of polish builders waiting in the sides lines to put Hadrians wall back up as soon as you leave :LOL:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The sad thing is, far too many Guess voters simply don't understand that Fat Aleck is in no position to guarantee there won't be border controls in the long term. The Schengen agreement is just one of several inconvenient pieces of the European project that he would need to negotiate his way out of and it is quite clear that Spain intends to make an example of Scotland in the event of separation. They will do so in order to show their restive provinces that breaking away from Madrid and then expecting life to carry on as before, except with extra sweeties, is just a pipe dream.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Now you see Salmond's Tartan Twits don't want to confront mere 'technicalities' such as that. Far better to promise the earth then worry about delivering after the people have been conned and blame the resulting mess on everyone else. I fail to see why anyone in their right mind would vote for this but if sufficient people do then so be it. I'll be happy either way because the result will either end Salmond's nonsense for good or wipe out Labour's unfair electoral advantage. I'm not sure which will please me most. :)



I heard Martyh has already volunteered... :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Yeah, Chris your right, it wasn’t vote an independence – I put my hand up on this one.
But what does this tell you, that nearly 2.5 million Scot’s came out, the majorty voted for a referendum. But because 40% didn’t vote that it was swept under the carpet. What does this mean?? in a decomcratic society that we’ve created that even the majoirty don’t have a voice weather 37% voted or 7% percent.

While your explanation of the “quorum” may be true but certainlly doesn’t make it right. It aint my problem that voters don’t turn up. I would still expect my vote to count and to mean something. If people don’t turn up to vote, that aint my problem.

Chris, I am 26 years old now. I have lived with decsions my mother, father, etc… made decades ago growing up in a society fueled by personal gain and motive, taking full advatage of the days of propersity. I am fully aware of how important this is for our kids.

I don’t and we don’t owe Cameron any thanks Chris lol. The fact that Scotland did not vote for a torrie/lib dem coliation should be noted. We pay our way like everyone else. If we want to change something it should be reasonably considered without having to be grateful or asking please.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

"Scotland" did not vote for anything - neither did "England". This is just another nationalist fantasy. It was a UK general election, with about 650 constituencies, each of which returned an MP. There are regional variations all over the UK in general elections but the fact that we are a modern, liberal democracy means that we accept the government even if we didn't vote for it, for the duration of its term. Most Scottish voters are sophisticated enough to understand this, and cast different votes for Westminster and Holyrood.

By a similar token, when the referendum results are announced region by region, and Shetland votes a resounding 'no', would you be content with the argument that "Shetland didn't vote for this"?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Sorry Hugh, I may just be me, but I can't see where it says that. The jist of it, is that an agreement has to made up for it to happen. But again, by the looks of things, some people are unable to play ball.

Again can someone explain why a shared currency would not work?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You're asking the wrong question.

It can be made to work, even if it is badly designed - spend a few minutes pondering the Eurozone. That shared currency is being kept afloat at the cost of billions of Euros the taxpayers of Germany haven't yet realised they are unable ever to get back, and at the cost of terrifying levels of unemployment that have destroyed the Greek economy for a generation.

Where the Euro project went wrong was at the very outset, when the federalist founders thought they could implement monetary union while leaving fiscal union for some later date. They knew that fiscal union would be required, in fact desirable in its own right, at some future point, but didn't push for it because the political will for it wasn't there. They didn't foresee the financial shock that has almost ripped the currency union apart (and may yet do so).

Sharing a currency is not simply a matter of agreeing to use the same tokens when purchasing goods. A modern currency is a government's principal means of economic control. Its value is determined by the strength of its economy and the trustworthiness of its government. The Euro blew up because different countries, with different tax and spending policies, caused imbalances in the system. In short, lots of Euros ended up in Germany and there were next to none left in Greece. The Euro became too expensive for Greeks to be able to afford it. With its own currency, Greece could have simply printed loads more of it, devaluing the currency and making imports horribly expensive but at least keeping the domestic economy afloat.

So, to return to the point at hand: a common Sterling zone *could* work, if

1. The lessons of the Euro were heeded, resulting in
2. A common fiscal policy for rUK and Scotland, resulting in
3. None of John Swinney's extravagant promises about competitive tax rates being possible, because
4. A successful common currency zone (see: US Dollar) relies on a central governing body which can move money around the system from where there is too much, to where there is not enough, which
5. Requires the common consent of *all* involved.

Let's be absolutely clear about this, a state that does not control its own economy is not independent in any meaningful sense. The GuessNP want to *break* the currency union of the UK and then re-forge one that will of necessity be more complex because it will be managed by politicians sitting in 2 different parliaments and 2 different governments, rather than in one place as is now the case.

And, finally, the great big elephant in the room: a fiscal union with a foreign state would lead to a loss of sovereignty for the people of the rUK and the rUK government being forced to guarantee the Scottish banking system against failure. Having just had their faces slapped with a Yes vote, how likely would the voters of Enlgand, Wales and Northern Ireland be to agree to underwrite the Scottish banking system and to allow the Scottish government to influence rUK tax policy?

Not very, I submit, is the answer to that question.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Sounds like some Scots only want a little bit of independence. If Scotland wants to go its own way and believes it can, let it do so on its own merits and with its own currency which will be valued and rise/fall along with interest rates according to economic fundamentals in Scotland not the UK or anywhere else. Scotland cherry picking what it wants from the rest of the UK isn't really being independent at all. Salmond's got it all sussed according to some so why worry about Sterling - surely it'll all be right when he's running the show and can plaster his image on the banknotes... ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Aren't taxes set at state level in America? I know Sales Tax is....

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

There are oodles of Federal taxes in the US. The Union would collapse if there weren't; it's the only reason a state like California can remain in an effective currency union with Iowa. Federal taxation and spending allows fiscal transfer from the places where the money is made to the places where it isn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxatio..._United_States

See also: http://www.economist.com/blogs/daily...s-fiscal-union for a brief but informative piece on the sheer scale of fiscal transfer between rich and poor parts of the USA.

The fact that the successful US Dollar zone relies on a TAX-RAISING GOVERNMENT OF THE UNION should not be overlooked.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Ta :tu:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Yeah, I would be content as I would repspect there vote. But at the end of the day, if the majoirty vote was yes/no (putting voter turnout to the side this now)...I would respect this.

But this is where the draw back is Chris and the fundamental flaw of the "system" is Scotland cannot implement/influence policy decision making in Westminster becuase of the under re-presentation of the Scottish MP's. The same goes for NI, Wales, etc.. I realise we got devo, but sorry, it doesn't satasfy my need and nor would I expect it to satasfy the scottish parliaments needs.

We have 50 or so mp's in westminster out of a representation of 600 for the UK. How can SNP, Salmond or anyone for the fact change things for the better good.

P.s. I didn't want to quote your response to the pound question because of the size, but I acknowledge and respect your answer to my question. It certainly gave me a lesson :)

Its certainlly gave me a different way of looking at it. Yeah the euro is a complete mess and yes I have to agree there are risks on a unpredictable nature of sharing the currency with different polices on each side of the border in play.

I have said before Chris, I don't think leaving the UK is the answer, but uncertainlly over the currency aint going to stop me from voting yes. But this did not explain why Scotland cannot go alone and make a good one out of it.

I quote from DC -

“Supporters of independence will always cite examples of small, independent and thriving economies, such as Switzerland and Norway. It would be wrong to suggest that Scotland could not be another such successful, independent country” - David Cameron (April 2007)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Mr Wad, the question we must answer in September has never been *could* we. It is, *should* we.

What sort of Scotland do you want? If you want true independence, a la Norway or Switzerland, then you close your border, print your own money and set your own taxes. This is not what the SNP is promising to negotiate in the event of a Yes vote.

If you want everything to continue pretty much as it is now, except without interference from Westminster, which is what the SNP is promising, then you are believing a lie. For the border to be open, and the currency to be unchanged, Scotland would be leaving many of the powers that rightly belong to an independent government, in the hands of a foreign neighbour. You think Westminster doesn't reflect Scotland because it only has 50 Scottish MPs? How about when it has zero Scottish MPs, but Scotland's fiscal policy is still being set there?

The GuessNP is selling a pig in a poke. The only deal on offer isn't independence, it's a hamstrung union in which Scots have vastly less influence over a government that will continue to rule over their economy.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

".....how likely would the voters of Enlgand, Wales and Northern Ireland be to agree to underwrite the Scottish banking system and to allow the Scottish government to influence rUK tax policy?"

I don't recall the electorate being asked to agree to underwrite the British banking system.

It seems it's not always the case that the electorate are consulted on such matters. Surely Scotland could have a pound or currency pegged to the UK pound rate? The Falklands do it and they, Wales and NI all print their own banknotes which are pegged to the pound. Here in NI we can transact at point of sale in Euros or pounds sterling, Northern, Ulster, Bank of Ireland and First Trust notes (to name but a few). Whilst I'm not an economist I don't see why it would be such a stretch for Scotland to do likewise.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Meantime, big business has finally decided it's time to stand up and be counted. Better Together is quoting the boss of a major investment bank specialising in the energy sector thusly:



---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:44 ----------

Banks in Wales do not print their own banknotes.

And notes printed in Scotland are not 'pegged' to the pound because they are not a distinct currency. Every single one of them is backed by a deposit of identical value, held at the Bank of England on behalf of the Scottish banks. A Scottish banknote is simply a promissory note, a substitute for the real thing. I believe this to be the case for notes issued in NI also.

Your comment about underwriting the British banking system rather misses the point. Regardless of your feelings about reckless bankers, what occurred in 2008 was a rescue of the British banking system, by the British government, using taxes raised in Britain.

In a future currency union, constituted to avoid the debacle currently destroying southern Europe, there is a risk of the Scottish banking system, being rescued by the English/Welsh/NI Government, using taxes raised in England/Wales/NI. Politically, the use of English/Welsh/NI taxes being used to rescue the economy of a foreign neighbour, is a wholly different proposition to the notion of using that money to rescue the State's own economy. It is likely, in my view, that calls for a referendum on this issue in rUK would be very loud and quite possibly irresistible.

You are of course correct, you can fully or partially substitute your own currency, either by pegging or by simply using the foreign country outright. It works well enough for tiny economies like the Falklands, Gibraltar, British Virgin Islands (US$) and a few others. However it comes with one massive risk, a risk which given recent history any sane person should consider simply too great. A fiscal authority without its own currency cannot be lender of last resort to its own banking system. Had RBS blown up in an independent Scotland running a substitute currency ... goodnight Vienna.

Incidentally, you can transact in Pounds, Euros, Dollars or lumps of Wensleydale cheese, anywhere in the UK, just so long as the buyer and seller agree on the rate of exchange. Agreement being the operative word. It gets a little more complex at government level, however.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Apologies. As I said, I'm not an economist however banks in Wales did at one stage print their own banknotes if I recall correctly.

I don't believe I did "miss" a point. It's a fact that the electorate of the UK were not asked to vote on the saving of the banking system.

The UK openly loaned seveal billions to Ireland in recent years to shore up their economy so loans and underwriting where there are national interests / assets are concerned are not entirely unheard of.

Clearly you have a far greater grasp of the fiscal side of things than I could wish to have but from a laypersons point of view when it comes to banking and matters of sovereignty things are never as clear cut as you or I would like them to be. To that end, and based on the recklessness of the bankers in recent years, I don't rule anything out when it comes to finances & independence.

EDIT:

Just researched the Welsh banknote history and I see you are right. They were a very limited promissory note run back in the 60's. Cheers.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

That's odd because I know of just one person up here who is voting for BT.
It may take a wee while for folk down in England tae get over the break up,one thing that's for sure,many folk (I may have posted this before) may seek pastures new in the years ahead due tae the weather situation,the North Pole is melting incredibly fast,so people have a choice,stay put or move tae Scotland where they will be welcomed,they might even like it.


[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Next up; The British Isles and how it will look after the zombie apocalypse.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...psff8d2b8f.jpg

---------- Post added at 19:17 ---------- Previous post was at 19:13 ----------


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...ps99576f39.jpg

---------- Post added at 19:28 ---------- Previous post was at 19:17 ----------

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott...ferendum,_1979

I wonder if they will twist the vote tae suit the money men in London.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It will not even appear on my radar - I don't care either way, although it will be funny watching it all go pear shaped if you get your way.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Thats funny as there are clearly more people here who will vote No than Yes. Same goes for all the people I know in Glasgow. Yes votes are few and far between.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

No problem. A number of English banks also issued notes, IIRC their right to do so lapsed if they closed down or were taken over - I need to do a bit more reading, it's an interesting part of our history. I believe the Scottish banks all still retain the right for, basically, political reasons.

The UK loan to Ireland amounted to £3.2 billion and, while it was offered bilaterally, it was a modest part of a larger international package of finance amounting to more than £50 billion.

The UK's bailout of its own banking system amounted, at its peak, to (wait for it ...) £1.1 trillion. £850 billion of that was thrown at RBS, a *Scottish* headquartered bank.

The Nats can say what they like about the healthy GDP of an independent Scotland, it simply would not have the cash, in absolute terms, to pay that sort of assistance to its own banking sector. With its own currency, it would have to print a fortune, devalue massively and wreck its international credit rating. Within a Sterling area, it would be down to rUK to ride to the rescue in order to protect Sterling for the sake of England, Wales and NI.

The UK's assistance to Ireland was, simply, a mere drop in the ocean and politically, and economically, it was perfectly defensible. The sorts of sums thrown at the Scottish part of the UK economy are, on the other hand, an entirely different matter and, IMO, just barely defensible so long as the money has been deployed within the domestic economy, to save the domestic economy. But to rescue a country that chose to alienate itself from rUK, opting to go its own way, but then needing that degree of rUK taxpayer help in time of need? That way lies serious trouble.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Wrong Stephen,the unionists will vote tae stay together.
BTW,as an aside,I'm on a forum called celticminded.com,I'm assuming you've heard of it before,as well as run of the mill Celtic websites such as KDS,The Huddle board,and TwistnTurns,they all voted heavily in favour of YES,as do Jambos Kickback,(where's there's an excellent debate on Independence) and the Hibs message boards,my cousin is a Rangers fan and on Follow Follow,they obviously want the BT,I'm sure you,as a Celtic fan,would back me up on these stats as I'm pretty certain you will have been on one or two forums,right?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

So if there is a yes vote in September. How will Scotland be able to keep the sterling pound?

Seen as all Scottish notes are not legal tender anywhere! All Scottish issued notes have to be backed up by English notes held by the issuing bank.

So if allowed will these banks still have to hold English notes in their vaults, as the Scottish notes are really just worthless IOUs.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

OK you're pretty sure the vote will turn out as a 'yes', we can all see that.

But hypothetically speaking, just imagine for a moment it turns out as a 'no'. What will you do then?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I sometimes visit KDS but only for the football threads. Personally I am BT because it makes more sense and the Yes team's white paper had so many holes in it, it was like swiss cheese.

There is nae need tae type 'tae' that doesnae make ya sound Scottish. Just looks pure daft like, ken?:angel:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It seems I have been wildly optimistic about SepScotland's ability to bail out RBS, even if it had full control of its own currency. The RBS balance sheet turns out to be 10 times larger than Scotland's GDP. No amount of money printing or international loans could cover that.

Not that I make a habit of quoting Vince Cable as gospel, but according to Jeremiah, Scotland would have to accept the need of its own currency, the cost of postage would go up and RBS would decline to take the risk of operating under Scottish control and shift its HQ to London, which would in turn blow a massive hole in a certain J. Swinney's tax assumptions.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...nce-Cable.html

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

And here is the full article, rather than just the bit quoted in the Yes Website....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/p...the-Union.html

Context is all.... ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

http://www.bettertogether.net/blog/e...urrency-claims

FACTS about the UK £....

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Isn't it amazing how many folk have got their knickers in a twist because of the word 'tae' eh.:D
Och awrite then,whit a will dae is use the word 'no',is everywan happy noo.;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Great article

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...ON-HEFFER.html

Not so great article but interesting never the less

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile...5828dce3d0899a

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Its okay,we'll just charge you for entering Scotland,as long as you all learn to (((arrrrrgghhh)})
behave when you enter our beautiful country.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Chris,

Chris you right on money with the question (pardon the pun). But I believe the journey this now is understanding if we could leave and do it on our own without blowing the country up. Pretty much the concencus of your arguments that I have seen so far in this thread is that will happen if we leave. Anyways,

Britain may have been one of the great rulers over the past couple hundred years Chris, but when coming to rule the neighbour to the north, its a very controversial matter. More so over the last few decades for very obvious reason's.

Chris you believe the union works very well. Well sorry I completely disagree with you on this.

We sell off our public utility's for a quick buck, hugely expand an inflated banking sector,crush a major world player in manufacturing, create an over inflated benefits system which totally lost focus of its original purpose, continue to pay bankers major bonuses, continue to do nothing about tax evaders, bbc scandals (public arm and big UK promtor), fund the royals, accept and influenced by a specific religion, sell off public assets (including council housing) and create an over inflated, heavily saturated private rent sector where again personal gain and profits prevail. The list goes on and on and on Chris. Where all the effective regulation, of which we also pay for out the public purse doesn't cut it.

Yeah, we can all say "yeah, but they can get everything right". Well I believe getting the basics and fundamentals right first and putting the power to the people first. Sadly that ain't the the case.

Why am I saying all this, because we can do nought about it. Salmond looks over the north sea, and see this money going south and dreams of what it could do for Scotland. Is that such a bad thing??...I mean really? AS knows the oil is running out and wouldn't be on the campaign trail if Scot had no oil.

You may not accept it, but I accept that oil is the lifeline of the current economic status of most advanced countries in this world and will go mental when the oil stops. But until that day, its major financial boost and incentive.

I need to give credit where due in regards to your argument about the pound , but I think it will take more than whether it is the £ or not, to make or break Scotland is it decides to leave. I may be wrong, but Im sure the irish pound did fine until they joined the euro.

Close the border, why? I mean like AS said, we would be your friendly neighbour to the north. I mean is that not good enough?

Like another poster said, Im not an economist, and I have to rely on sources of info for that...

Other than losing sight of AS fundamental reasons for doing it, I will ask you though Chris, what would happen to the rest of the UK's wealth if Scotland left. You seem to have a very big insight on how bad it will be for Scotland, I am very interested to hear your views on the flip side.

All the talk I have heard so far is Scotland will emplode and the rest of the UK will will be fine and have to ride to Scotland's rescue. I mean really, do you believe anyone to accept that, weather anyone has a detailed economic financial reason which to me is all banker talk covering their rear ends. (not to imply that you are a banker or that).

Who do we we standing up now?, the govn. of the bank of England?...who may see less money coming in and have to deal with problems that he cannot even comprehend. What the head of the BP?...who has to worry about AS raising the rent on the fields.

You know Chris, if your right, and we leave and mess it up, I will come back here and give you your due, I am man enough to do that, but its going to take more than the better together campaign weak arguments to convince Scots to stay. Labour were wiped out in Scotland in the last election for a very good reason and are still shocked .

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Nice one,er,you do know the Daily Fail is a laughing stock of a rag.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/tab...nal-newspapers

---------- Post added at 21:31 ---------- Previous post was at 21:26 ----------

...You know Chris, if your right, and we leave and mess it up, I will come back here and give you your due, I am man enough to do that, but its going to take more than the better together campaign weak arguments to convince Scots to stay. Labour were wiped out in Scotland in the last election for a very good reason and are still shocked .
Wad_2002; Today at 21:23.

================================================== ==========
Likewise.
*

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

lol Scotland's heavily subsidised style. I think this guy lives in coo coo land. I have never read such anti scottish dribble in my life. I take it this is being drip fed down south, rather than the truth and why we should stay and work things out for the greater. of everyone involved.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I don't want you to stay.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

How far do you take this, in a future Scottish government how well would Shetland and Orkney be represented if they vote for a different party to the rest of Scotland.

Do they get independence as they will not be able to influence policy at all.

J

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

lol just to clarify, I was referring to the author of the article was in coo coo land.

Hope we can still be good neighbour's too the north should we leave :)

---------- Post added at 21:51 ---------- Previous post was at 21:47 ----------


Sorry, I might be missing your point. But to answer, arnt they already part of scotland?...Just as Aberdeen were to vote a different party, they would have to lump it.

Pretty much we do the now?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Well, prospective English, Welsh, and NornIron students are looking forward to equity with Scottish and EU students, and getting their fees paid by the Scottish tax-payer....

http://www.studyinscotland.org/how-t...ding-and-fees/

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

But lack of representation of Scotland in the UK government is a reason for independence, why would it be different for Shetland and Orkney?

If they have to lump it why can't Scotland as a whole lump it then?

J

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Now i understand WHY you want a yes vote, you want more money spent on bridge repairs so you don't need to come out from under yours as much :tu:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Seems to me you don't need to know what Chris or anyone else thinks about this. He's answered your questions cogently and you still have more questions than answers yet you'll still vote 'Yes' by the sound of it. That's your prerogative, of course, but you and those like you will be the ones who have to live with the outcome and that's the price you'll pay for Salmond's 'freedom'.

Good luck with that, I hope it goes well for you and trust that all that new found SNP national pride will mean you won't be expecting your 'good neighbours' to bail you out if it all goes pear shaped. After all you'll be 'independent' then and wanting to stand alone, responsible for your own success or failure, and I don't suppose many of you newly independent Scots will be wanting to sacrifice any of your SNP created wealth bailing us out if your leaving the UK fatally holes the ship.

As they say on shopping TV - 'when it's gone it's gone' and if you have your way that will apply to Scotland.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

What do you mean 'our beautiful country'?

You're a Sassenach!

Since I was born and raised there, I think you might find I have more rights there than you...;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Why, is this not a debate? I respect Chris's and others input hence why i am interested on his views on the flip side?

Just for your info, I have never said I was voting yes, or meant to give that impression ,Im sure I posted back a while ago on his thread that breaking the union is not the answer for everyone. But Im not prepared to accept the current situ for the next 10 years or so.

Its clear that some folks have ill feelings, and Im happy to sit on the sidelines on this thread.

Just to answer your last point, I would hope that wouldn't happen to neither, but it we had to help, I would be all for it, mainly due to the history and all we have been through together. :)

Thanks for listening.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Sorry, I can't understand what your saying.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Beats me why Jimi has to sound like he's typing how he speaks I mean ffs, I was born in London, but I don't go round typing.

'Leave it ahhht', ere tweakle, I'm goin up the apples n pears'

Muppet.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

:rofl:

---------- Post added at 10:16 ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 ----------

It's very much the impression I got but I accept your explanation and there are certainly no bad feelings here - except to those who try to dress up stereotypes and nationalistic nonsense as debate and stir up trouble... ;)

Salmond wants to have his cake and eat it but that's not on. A truly independent Scotland can not have Sterling as its currency or pick and choose which bits of independence it wants. If Salmond's genie is let out of the bottle there will be no putting it back in and those considering what to do need to think about that reality before putting their 'x' on the ballot paper because it's going to affect them far more than the rest of us and there will be no going back.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

This is another nationalist fantasy my friend. Britain did not come north to rule. England and Scotland passed Acts of Union in their own legislatures, preserving the bodies of law in each territory but agreeing that in future, those laws would be legislated in one common parliament. This parliament was based in London, which was the fair and reasonable choice for all sorts of reasons. Since 1707 Scots have been over-represented, in terms of population share, at the very top of UK institutions. Economically and socially Scotland has thrived and its people have enjoyed access to the first division of world affairs in a way that would not have happened otherwise.

Every government, everywhere in the world, has to govern for the good of the whole. This means its decisions will always be better for some than others. However on balance the overall health of the nation is good for the whole nation. An independent Scottish government sitting in Edinburgh would operate on exactly the same principles. The people of Shetland, for example, might reasonably point out that Edinburgh is still a very, very long way in terms of distance and culture.

The idea that everything would have been completely different if only the government were in Edinburgh instead of Scotland is just another nationalist fantasy.

What the SNP is saying is, none of these things would have happened if we had been in charge. That claim is nonsense for many reasons, two big ones being:

1. What makes the SNP so sure they'd have been in charge? They're a political party like any other. They are subject to the voters like any other.
2. Scotland has plenty of voters with centre-right sentiments - otherwise it would be politically unique in the Western world, and it isn't. There is a serious Tory image problem north of the border which masks that sentiment, and independence would most likely result in the death of the Tories in Scotland, followed by the formation of a new centre-right party. In time, this party would get its hands on power in Edinburgh. It's inevitable. So don't be so quick to assume that independence is the final solution to evil Tories. In the long run a government in Edinburgh would have its fair share of governments from both the Left and the Right, same as everywhere else.

What this comes down to is the SNP's amateurish failure to tell the difference between a national constitution, and party politics. Independence is a constitutional issue, but they are selling it on a 'white paper' which is actually an SNP party manifesto. They simply cannot guarantee that party political promises (such as free childcare) can last more than a few years beyond independence because such issues cannot be written in to a constitution.

Alex Salmond wants to take oil revenue and create a sovereign wealth fund. Unfortunately, the state services that are currently paid for out of UK taxes are currently paid for, in part, out of that oil revenue. If Salmond takes oil revenue out of current spending, then in order to maintain spending on schools, hospitals and spare bedrooms for people claiming housing benefit, then he will have to find the money from somewhere else. He will find that money in the only other place it exists - your pocket. Independent Scotland, higher personal taxes. Your choice.

It did. But the SNP is not proposing a return to Pound Scots, it is proposing that IndeScotland continues to use Pound Sterling (GBP) via a formal currency union, which represents on the one hand, effectively surrendering Scottish independence as soon as it has been agreed, and on the other hand a significant political and economic risk for rUK.

Pound Scots means currency exchanges, and therefore fees, every time you do business with a company based in England. Paypal will make a fortune out of it, you certainly won't.

70% of Scotland's trade goes to other parts of the UK. Denominating those goods in Pound Scots adds currency costs that do not currently exist and puts Scotland on a footing with Ireland, France and wherever else in Europe. Once Scotland is just another country with a different currency, its current domestic advantage is gone.

And in reverse, goods coming to Scotland from rUK also become more expensive because of currency costs. And there are vastly more goods coming north than going south. This is a much bigger issue for Scotland than it is for rUK.

I don't think the border should be closed, not least because I live on the northern side of it. ;) However that is what being truly independent entails, if by independence you would point at Norway and Switzerland, as you did when you quoted David Cameron.

You have not heard me arguing that Scotland will implode. You have not heard Better Together arguing that either. You may have heard some nutter down the pub saying that, but then there are nutters on both sides and I think we can safely ignore them.

You have heard me, and BT, argue that on balance Scotland will be worse off, because loss of economies of scale will result in higher costs for groceries, higher costs for public services (resulting in higher taxes to pay for them), higher costs for students because Scotland will not be able to afford to pay fees for students from rUK, who would suddenly be entitled to them under EU law as citizens of a foreign member state.

You have also heard me, and BT, argue that the risks of Scotland facing an economic catastrophe are greater because the economic shocks of 2008 and since have shown just how badly things can go wrong, how much money is required to put them right, and what fiscal structures are required in order to administer the treatment.

I'm not sure what you mean about the Governor of the BoE seeing 'less money coming in'. I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick here and perhaps you need to go and do some reading up on what the Bank of England is for, and what it does.

As for the boss of BP worrying about Salmond taxing his business, well yes, and why shouldn't he? Tax regimes are important to businesses, especially to multinational businesses. Hostile tax regimes deter investment by such businesses. You may think that's not your problem if some fat cat business gets thumped by a proud Scottish left-wing government, but it will become your problem pretty darned quick if that tax regime results in BP, and others, going elsewhere. When the tax take falls, other taxes go up or public services get cut. It is inevitable.

There are a lot of people who voted for the SNP in 2011 for reasons other than their stance on independence. The SNP's showing in the Holyrood elections should not be taken as an indication of the referendum voting intentions of the Scottish electorate.

Scottish voters are canny and tactical. They realised that in many cases the only way to 'get the Labour out' was to vote for his SNP rival. Holyrood elections are fought under a system that is *broadly* proportional but it is still not perfect. The SNP may have just scraped an overall majority of seats but they did so on 45% of the vote - i.e. they didn't get the support of the majority of voters. That's not to take anything away from their achievement in 2011, but don't for a moment think that those results read across to a 'yes' vote this year.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Game, set and match methinks :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Or perhaps a bridge over troubled waters.(England).
Anyway,as Rabbie Burns said in his Parcel O'Rogues poem.....Bought and sold by English gold.
It's also incredible to think that centuries later we still have part of the Act of Union which forbids Catholics to become head of state,unbelievable.

http://www.angrypict.co.uk/union.html

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Seriously ?

So you'd have no problem with the Archbishop of Canterbury for example becoming the next Pope.

Also would it be OK for Shetland and Orkney to seek independence if a Yes vote is successful?

J

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The Monarch is head of the Church Of England.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The famous Jewish poet.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

No, no no....He promised LESS taxes remember? Less Taxes, more spending. Why didn't our Government think of that?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Bought with English gold, does that refer to bailing out the bankrupt Scots after their foreign empire building adventures.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I'm sure you are aware that he's English hence he's not relevant to us in Scotland.

---------- Post added at 13:38 ---------- Previous post was at 13:37 ----------

You are aware that Lowland Scots are classified as being sassenach,aren't you Hugh.

---------- Post added at 13:43 ---------- Previous post was at 13:38 ----------

I'm quite certain the now deceased witch was grateful for our black gold.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Make your mind up you seem to be getting confused. You complained that the head of STATE cannot be catholic. As the head of STATE is also the head of the Church of England then you would like to appoint some one of different faith to the head of a church, hence the responses, not sure what the nationality of the appointee has to do with it.

I take it your OK with a Catholic / Jew / Muslim being appointed the head of the Church of Scotland (or Moderator of the General Assembly as there is no mortal head of the church) then? That's effectively what you are asking for.

What about Shetland or Orkney?

J

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Your point was about whether Catholics could ascend the throne and the Queen will remain monarch in Scotland even if the yes campaign wins will she not?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

OK you're pretty sure the vote will turn out as a 'yes', we can all see that.

But hypothetically speaking, just imagine for a moment it turns out as a 'no'. What will you do then?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Then Alex Salmond pushes for Devo-Max whilst claiming it was his plan all along. The SNP cheerleaders praise him to the heavens for outwitting the dastardly English once again and we have to look at the smug one's face being extremely smug for years to come.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Absolutely spot on.

That is as concise a prediction as to what is going to happen as you could get.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

We'll get rid of Lizzie,a millstone around our necks,her and her cronies have been nothing but parasites,end of....
As for The Shetlands and Orkney,they will share our wealth,why not?
We will have another referendum in the next 20 years or so because no doubt about it,England will put all sorts of barriers against us before September 18th,I have no doubts about it at all.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

So you all feel like that about the Queen or just you?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

No, I mean what will you do?