Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

They really could be doing with a bit of fact checking there.

For example, Blair Peach was killed after being assaulted, allegedly by a policeman, at an anti nazi league march, not an "anti vietnam" march.

It rather demeans the whole thrust of their coverage that they can't get historical facts and references right.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I havnt read all 400 post's, dont really intend to either. But from what I have seen, heard been told the students are miffed at having to pay "UP TO" £9k a year in tuition fees, and that this will see them in debt after uni. But if they earn less than £21k they dont have to pay it back and then there is a sliding scale for repayments as their wages increase above that.

So what is the problem? I dont get it.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

A bad boy telled the stoodents pomizez that he wouldn't never ever - swears to godz - put up the prices of them learnin' an stuff. He telled them this 4 2 get them to vote him into Buckingham Palaces to rool the werld and when they did and he did he went and gone and changed his mind to a liar.

That is "the problem" per se. ;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

its all explained in posts 1- 401- enjoy;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Clear as mud, I take it uni wasn't on your list of things to do before you got old, especially with spelling like that ;) Or was that a C&P of a txt from a 2 yr old? :p:

---------- Post added at 19:23 ---------- Previous post was at 19:08 ----------

I have trouble making sense out of sound bites and tid bits of information ;) Oh and arguments between members, makes for a messy thread.


But I still dont get it.
If I was getting ready to go to uni and that I would have to pay more for my education I would make sure that my time at uni was well spent learning my chosen courses, striving to do my best, making sure that I made every effort to get a good job. Not ****ing it up the wall and shagging everything that had a heartbeat or moved.
Obviously these students want a free ride where expenses are concerned and are bitching for the sake of bitching.
I suppose next, that when they leave uni they will want 10 yrs without paying any stamp or tax!

So I still dont get it.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

the increase stars in 2012.
3 years in uni that takes it to 2015.
so what will be the average salary in 2015 ?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Yes Al, that's fine if that was (hypothetically) what you wanted to do.

Stereotyping the students as you have done serves no purpose other than to show you are approaching the discussion from an already jaundiced perspective.

Unfortunately not all student behaviours, and indeed needs, are so easily compartmentalised.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

about £25,000
http://career-advice.monster.co.uk/s...s/article.aspx

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Whilst I wouldnt want to stereotype students the vast majority, nay all but one of the ones I have known over the years have tended to live their university lives as beer drinking, women\men chasing, slovenly, lazy, arrogant oiks. They are nice people but used that time just let it all go.
If that makes my perspective jaded then so be it. But it is an opinion that is just a relevant and the next persons.

My stepson will be going to uni to study law in 2012 & he was there at the first student rally\riot.
Even though we have discussed the funding\fees issue I still dont see what the problem is. Forget the lib-dem pledge & what other parties has said what they will do, in a time of austerity how do we as a nation find the money to fund universities.
In the states parents save from the time they have a child for when he or she goes onto further education, the government only helps the poorest. So why should I and others pay for those that want to go to uni without them paying the full cost back.
The fees @ £3200 a year at the moment and the rest is subsidised by the gov.
So when the fees go up in 2012 we as tax payers will no longer be subsidising them as much, therefore more money will be availiable for issues more in need of funding.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Err...is the answer "because we don't live in the states"?

You have evidenced that you understand fully what the argument is.

Suggesting that people simply "Forget the lib-dem pledge" and get on with it is a bit disingenuous given that it played a very major part in their election results.

I will happily contribute toward your stepsons university as I'm sure you will - whether through times of austerity or not.

I would, however remind you of those words of one of the great English statesmen Nick Clegg who said, rather famously, "We want to abolish tuition fees. We think they're wrong. At a time the economy is submerged in debt, more debt is not the answer to debt".

Seems he was a bit economical with the truth on at least two counts there.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

£25k :confused: laughable... well for me anyway.

Looking at those tables and figures either they are wrong or I'm in the wrong job.
Skilled worker, 23 years in the trade, CNC operator\programmer & after OT & Bonus I may gross 24K.

---------- Post added at 20:57 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------

Maybe it is disingenuous, but we need to remember that the pledge was made before anyone other than Labour had a look at the books. Its all fine saying one thing but when faced with overwhelming odds sometimes you need to change your mind. Especially when we are up to our eyebrows in crap.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

When the next voting part comes in, l would suggest All Liberal Dem don't stand as they will lose there seats, Like all parties they are a bunch of liars - who would you trust.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

As was discussed earlier in the thread, tuition fees after the increase will be considerably higher than what the majority of the US students pay. It will also be 3-4 times higher than most of Western Europe (Netherlands: ~€1700 per year; Germany €500 per semester).

Do you think it's a good idea that the government puts a premium on education at a time when manufacturing in the UK is in decline and the economy is increasingly dependent on an educated workforce?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

As I stated in my first post in this thread I haven't & wont be reading the first 401 post's. But if you want you can summarise them for me ;)

---------- Post added at 21:57 ---------- Previous post was at 21:55 ----------

We are not the rest of Western Europe, back at ya ;) :p:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

what i can see is that all students from outside the uk.
will register to go to scottish universities as it will be cheaper :)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Educated workforce all working at Maccy D's getting their 5* over the double arch.

And in answer to your question emphatically YES!

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

No, we are not the rest of Western Europe, or the USA. What we are (or rather will be) is the country with the least subsidised and therefore most expensive Higher Education in the industrialized world. I don't think that puts us at a competitive advantage economically when manufacturing is in decline.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Which is subsidised by the UK ;) because Scotland (no offence to the Scottish) wouldn't be able to sustain its own economy without outside help.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

wonder if that is the plan
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...ers-leap-third

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I work in manufacturing and fully understand how our economy is going in this sector.
But does that still mean that we can throw money at higher education? No, we need to draw a line, and IMO that is what's being done. Love it or hate it, it was passed by about 20 votes.
We cant be a country of graduates, for gods sake man who'll empty our bins.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

No. This is about the Tory pledge to cut immigration numbers. The only way they can do this realistically is to cut student visas. Early plans suggested banning pretty much all foreign (non-eu) students, but plans have now been downsized to non-degree level students.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

or putting up the price so most of them can't aford it.
as they won't be entitled for loans

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

As it stands. we are the only country that stopped 'throwing' money at HE. The future will tell whether that's wise or not.

No, and I never suggested that. I do think however that education will be key to the UK maintaining a competitive advantage. This move does very little towards that.

---------- Post added at 22:29 ---------- Previous post was at 22:24 ----------

Non-EU students are already paying considerably higher tuition fees. They subsidise EU students. The increase in tuition fees will have very little impact on the number of non-EU students coming to UK Universities. EU students would be mad to come here and pay four times their home fees.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

that was my point.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

If Scotland, Wales and Ireland are part of UNITED KINGDOM, then students should have the same education and if it is FREE, then it should be across the board, what happen to equal rights. whats fair for one, is fair for all.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Devolution.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

there's nothing united about this Kingdom any-more;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Oh dear. We may actually have British people doing vocational training for occupations like plumbing, decorating, becoming electricians and other skilled tradesman instead of doing random humanities degrees and having to import tradesman from Eastern Europe.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

What saddens me is that degrees are becoming a commodity being the only value placed on them.An indication of finance rather than an acquisition of knowledge.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

While I agree vocational training is needed, the infrastructure for implementing it does not exist, as far as I can see?

I think we need to drastically improve the interface between industry & education to the benefit of this country - so I agree that running Universities on a financial basis that relies on overseas students is farcical. (Please note that isn't intended to exclude overseas students, just that the emphasis needs changing)

In my opinion we need to involve employers much more in the education process - and if an Humanities degree is useless in that scenario, then so be it ...

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

The problem is that employers want the benefit of the skills, but don't want to contribute to paying for the courses (mostly).

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

The trouble is what employer wants wants to fork out thousands on someone who could leave straight away for someone else? And I dare forcing someone to work within a company for a set period of time (like they do in the military) breaks some kind of human rights legistlation.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I don't see too much call for such a degree in the current shortage occupation list.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

true - but 'back in the day' the training levy scheme did seem to work - a standard levy on all companies above a certain workforce complement - retrievable by providing accredited training ..

I'm not sure where it all dissolved into the YTS schemes, etc, but the old 'City & Guilds' system, HNC, etc which included 'day release' used to work - why did the funding change to cause these successful schemes to founder?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

My own is happy to pay for courses and training I do outside of work so long as they are at least vaguely relevant to my position.

A major issue is how the employer can ensure they get a return on their investment, would they be able to ensure a condition of the sponsorship is a set period of service with the company with a percentage of the costs falling to the employee should they leave before this or be fired for some reason?

---------- Post added at 23:41 ---------- Previous post was at 23:36 ----------

That actually sounds great gazfan, I think this is kinda what the coalition's plans towards vocational training are trying to accomplish though I'd need to check that.

Education seems to have become a bit of a one size fits all with as many as possible funnelled to University and those who don't go sent to the tills and shelf filling in the supermarket.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

My school had 3 tiers, those working towards Oxbridge, those working to get into a decent 'red brick' & those seeking vocational training.

The 'vocational' people did stuff like technical drawing & practical woodwork/metalwork that the 'academic' people didn't - they left at age 16 & got an apprenticeship.

The 'red brick' people did two more years, did A levels & applied to 'ordinary' universities.

The 'Oxbridge' people did their O' Levels a year early, their A levels a year early & used the extra year to do the special papers & entrance exams for Oxford or Cambridge.

I was initially in the 'fast stream' 'Oxbridge' lot, & got good O' Levels at age 15, but then preferred adolescence to academia & failed to pass any A levels.

- I was subsequently lucky to get grant aid to do an OND & then an HND, but that was quite a few years later ...

Amidst the rambling I hope I've indicated there were always several choices available to me, none of which involved taking out a loan.

imo employers should pay for training - not students ?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Have you any proof of this?

---------- Post added at 02:07 ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 ----------

Arthur, I do appreciate that you are quite "mad" but you need to understand that Ireland (the clue is in the name) is not "part of (the) UNITED KINGDOM".

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11977634

The six blokes pictured look like they'd be more comfortable on a football terrace than in a lecture theatre.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

There is a cracking video on liveleak of a 'student' chucking a petrol bomb at the police.

His mates then spirit him away when they realise he might get his photo taken. Can't link to it here as there is some naughty language in it but Inspector Gadget has a copy on his site.

He has a clear run up to chuck the flaming bottle at the Police lines. In any other country in the world he'd be looking at the wrong end of a baton round at the bare minimum.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I see no reason why baton rounds should not be used, plus we should use water cannon as a quick soaking on a winters day will soon cool them down.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

TBF, and to the student's credit. I think they tried to stop him as soon as he was spotted.

The video is unique as it simultaneously vidicates the police who claim there was violence before kettling and the students who claim they were infiltrated by extremists groups. At the end when he is pulled away by his mates one of them does appear to have one of those arabic headbands on that you see terrorists in execution videos wearing.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

The checklist for a students days peaceful protesting doesn't tend to go:

Food, water, phone, money, petrol, flares, paint, snooker balls. :erm:

I've no doubt that a majority of the protestors were not involved in the violence, I've been hearing stories of a large number of foreigners involved in the main chunk of disorder but there were plenty of home grown halfwits only too prepared to join in.

In my mind though the students have only themselves to blame. By refusing to condemn the violence and putting the blame onto the Police for the escalation of violence over the course of the protests they are setting things up for more and more disorder.
Also by allowing themselves to be infiltrated by hooligans and anarchists they've allowed their message to be drowned out.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Exactly. I find it pretty amusing that so many English people have said us Celtics can "$%*& off" back to our own countries but when those in England are losing out, suddenly it's all about the "UNITED Kindom".

I'm no rabid Welsh nationalist but if you make your bed, you lie in it.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

You can tell it's 2012 in a couple of years, you and I agreeing has to be one of the omens of the impending apocalyspe :D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Mmm, bizarre Nibiru gravitation causes Ignition/Russ love-in ... that's a conspiracy too far, I think. ;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Aw come on Carl it's not all bad, we've both become quite agreeable in our old age :D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Is this what you saw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=InjVpoguqVk

Because that is some of what was a longer rant from the group you see in the video. Other snippets missing from that was the threat that there will be more of there "good natured but radical protesting" to come.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Strange - the last time someone took the Police to court for kettling, they (the plaintiff) lost; must be a new definition of illegal I hadn't come across before.....

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I think it was except Solomon's nonsensical rant was just before. At the start of the video you can see the cameras panning away from her.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Water cannons ftw!

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Especially in this weather :D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

why plastic bullets because they have an impressive record ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_bullet


look in the notes and reference's section bottom of page [6] victims of plastic and rubber bullets .

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I know first hand what a plastic bullet can do, I have fired a few in anger ;)

My point was that kettling is far less of an evil than the three alternatives i stated above

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I've just watched this on sky and according to Tamsin Ormond,Charlotte Gerada and Bruce Kent ,kettling is the cause of the violence (ROFL) ,if think being kept in one area is bad then god only knows what the rsponse will be if water cannons and plastic bullits are used

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

God, you sound dangerous and unstable :D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Trust me i was and those who know me say i still am. :)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Well he might not know what the Cenotaph is but he sure knows what the inside of a Police cell looks like.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-Cenotaph.html

Hmmm, latex gloves on. I'm sure that was just in case he got cold and not to avoid fingerprints :rolleyes:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2010/12/65.jpg

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

You do realise that there are people who are not going to believe your source.:rolleyes:

To help them out, the same story in the Guardian, BBC news.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

You can imagine the lame excuse he will come out with " Honest your honour i had latex gloves on in case i had to carry out first aid and the stone was not mine as you can see i did not have hold of it"

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

those gloves dont seem to have any finger ends to them and that stone looks photoshoped to me - i'm not defending him it just looks iffy .

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

That's good photoshopping, They even did his eye's so he is looking at the stone. :D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

It does look a bit suspect. I'm sure one of the photo-bods on here can confirm if it's genuine or not.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

where would you get a lump of sandstone like that in the middle of london ...unless you've been pulling buildings apart

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Presumably, it'll be easy to find in a photo lab?

Seriously: It may be genuine, but with the sand effect it looks like it came from a professional/commercial photo shoot?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Aaron Porter seems to be adjusting to real world politics quite nicely. I heard him interviewed on LBC today and, from what I heard, his tone was a lot more moderate than it was on Question Time a couple of days ago. I wonder if he's realised that the students have lost a lot of public support because of what's happened and is consequently changing tack and moderating his tone in order to assuage the anger of the long suffering taxpayer who foots the bill for all this nonsense....

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

The switched on togs would have known who he was and that is why there is a glut of pics of this idiot.

They don't get paid for pics of nobodys, well not usually.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Looks genuine to me.

The way he's looking at it, the way the light it hitting it.

There may be no ends in "some" of the fingers on the glove, anyone who's worn latex gloves to do messy DIY jobs around the house will know that the ends wear out and tear quite easily, holding and throwing a lump of rough sandstone, would easily do the trick.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Whether the picture is real or not is immaterial, it doesn't escape the fact he was seen parading and goading the Police on some news footage, but worse of all, swinging on a Flag (causing it to tear) hanging from the Cenotaph and completely disrespect our War Dead Heroes, I'd say that is a lot worse than throwing a rock and causing some criminal damage.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Very good photoshopping. In fact I'd go so far as to say the amount of work required to make it that good would make it impractical for them to have produced the picture in a couple of days. Unless they had the facilities of a good post production/special effects house, which would be a little expensive just to implicate one student, whoever he is.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Looking at the apparent trajectory of the rock, it appears as though he throwing it behind him. If it is an unadulterated photograph, it is entirely possible it was contrived, perhaps at the behest of the photographer, pandering to an over-privileged fop, who really had no idea what he was protesting against.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I disagree. Nobody is denying that it was him who was dangling from the flag on the cenotaph (least of all Charlie Gilmour himself who has admitted to it). What's potentially at issue here is whether the Daily Fail are going out of their way to further implicate him in looting and violence towards the police.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

So when he tried to start a fire at the doors to the treasury as per this photo he did not know what he was doing with the lighter.:rolleyes:



---------- Post added at 11:50 ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 ----------

A picture paints a thousand words and the same pictures are in the Daily Express.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I'm sure his lawyer will claim he was trying to read what's on the paper and was using the lighter for illumination. :erm:

He does seem to be getting deeper and deeper in the excrement as days go by. From swinging on the flag, to looting topshop, to chucking rocks and now arson.

Maybe he'll get his degree paid for after all as he's completing it from inside one of her Majesties fine hotels. :)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Clearly Photoshopped or contrived.

---------- Post added at 12:58 ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 ----------

Right.

If that's the case he's an idiot. Have the standards at Oxbridge dropped that much?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I have no idea what you are on about, the two are separate. How does him trying to set fire to a wooden door, prove that he knew why he was there?

---------- Post added at 13:17 ---------- Previous post was at 13:15 ----------

There is certainly no denying that.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Remember, long-lens photography distorts perspective - it makes objects look much closer together than they really are. The rock is unlikely to be as close to his head as it appears, so it is entirely reasonable for it to appear to be lit differently to the student.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

You have no idea what I am on about? why is that because it does not fit in with your contrived argument over the rock, that is him lighting a fire deliberately which is at least a public order offence.

Get real and accept other peoples arguments and the pictures of him doing the act and running away with a furled up banner.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

No I don't. Why are you so angry? All I did was comment on the impression the picture made on me and of my perspective of his lack of understanding of the issues, after listening to his excuses on the news broadcasts. Meaning, I believed him to have just gone along for the ride, because it may have sounded like a jolly good jape. You then post about him setting fire to a door and for some reason you wrote, "as per this photo he did not know what he was doing with the lighter." I am pretty sure he knew what he was doing with the lighter, but I very much doubt he really knew why. I really don't understand your issue with that.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

To be fair, it is the Socialist Worker* newspaper, so perhaps he was just trying to save people the pain of accidently picking it up and reading it.....;)




*oxymoron

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Not angry at all just pointing out that young Mr Gilmore is not really that innocent.;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I never suggested that he was, just that he was playing to the cameras a bit. This over-privileged idiot does not deserve any sympathy at all.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Correct but what he does deserve is a sort sharp shock, A short stay in one of her majesty's hotels will do the trick.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

An act of supreme benevolence then...... :D

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Just been on Sky news right now that the Met may consider using Water Cannons at future demos.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

This would have been a bad move on these demonstrations.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

:clap:

Excellent, That will deal with the little hooligans and put there fires out as well. They did say they did not want kettling any more :LOL:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

There seems to be some confusion in the reporting - on the Sky News site, it is stated that she said

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

I hope they also hand out soap.....;)

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

So, the use of water cannon is illegal and would need a full change in the law to allow it to be deployed. Hardly up to the Metropolitan Police Service then.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Then they should get the law changed ASAP.

---------- Post added at 18:19 ---------- Previous post was at 18:17 ----------

But would they know what its for :LOL:

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Aah yes, change the law to stop people protesting about laws being changed. That'll go down well. What about when it's something you want to protest about?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Protesting should always remain a democratic right.

Violent and criminal and generally thuggish behaviour associated with the protesting is what needs to be tackled here.

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

And how is a water cannon going to do that?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

And you are asking me this because?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

Like this?

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

There is protesting then there is this. Note there is bad language in this so turn down the sound before watching if you are easily offended.

Also note this was BEFORE the kettling started.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ead_1292023263

So what do you think they should do to try and stop the hooligans doing what is in this video. ????? or do you think these people are correct and everyone else is wrong http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InjVp...layer_embedded

Re: Students Rioting in London.
 

If it's used in Northern Ireland then as per the Raoul Moat X-Rep taser debacle i would imagine that it is down to the individual force to justify.

If it were 100% illegal then why did the met up till a few years ago have a couple in storage?