Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Perhaps that's a question we should also ask the hoteliers?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Update

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

If that's true then it's totally out of order.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Context?
Was it 'you are a terrorist and a murderer' or 'you could be a terrorist and a murderer hidden under those garments' or 'there are people who dress the way you are, that are terrorists and murderers' etc, etc, etc.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Mr and Mrs Vogelenzang deny using threatening, abusive or insulting words which were religiously aggravated.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Indeed, there is no point in trying fathom what was actually said and how it was said, unless you were actually there.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Yet certain people are doing just that, it's case of 'wilfully to misunderstand'(I love the phrase from Jane Austen).

I find it highly unlikely that they would refer to someone actually being a terrorist and a murderer.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Nice to see you keeping an open mind on this ;)

You may wish to contact the defence team, to offer your assistance. :D

---------- Post added at 14:48 ---------- Previous post was at 14:47 ----------

May I ask why you think that? Are you a close personal friend, and know them so well?

Or is it just something you would like to believe, as it supports your proposition, without any evidence to support that proposition.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Like that evidence? 'If' being the operative word.

Is it so difficult to understand that most people would not call somebody 'a terrorist and a murderer'.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Most people wouldn't. This court case is to determine if someone did..

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

That's the testimony of the woman who made the complaint. How reliable it is as 'evidence' will be tested in due course, under cross-examination and, I assume, by the presentation of other, independent witnesses.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

And why would any of those options justify them saying it?

---------- Post added at 17:46 ---------- Previous post was at 17:34 ----------

I would have thought that the prosecution would have reviewed the statements of the victim and those of any witnesses. If the prosecution witnesses did not agree with her account, I wouldn't have thought there would be much point in continuing with the prosecution.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

BBC update

btw, the Christian Institute, who are funding the defendants' lawyers, were prominent outside the Liverpool Magistrates' Court, wearing t-shirts and carrying banners displaying the words "Free Speech". They didn't seem to support free speech when they protested and tried to take legal action against "Jerry Springer, the Opera". In fact, Colin Hart, the Director of the Christian Institute, said Oh, the irony......

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

From what I've read about this case I'm getting the impression they could well be guilty.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Guilty or not Russ you can bet your last pound that this couple will be portrayed as "hard done by" and "down-trodden" in the Mail and Sun when the trial finishes.
And that the muslim women will be portrayed as some English hating, Burka wearing enemy within.:rolleyes:

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Does seem that it's not so much that they defended their faith but rather that they attacked someone else's.

Christianity preaches tolerance and the application of religious principles in daily life.In this instance the tolerance was clearly not applied.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Not that the "Christian" Institute really gives a damn about that.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Actually they do but I feel their motives and methods are (putting it politely) highly misguided and questionable.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I didn't think anyone thought that the religious arm of the British Nazi Party was that interested in "tolerance."

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

She is English, and a recent convert to Islam. In fact, she describes herself as a 'regular Warrington girl that likes the Beatles'. Mr. Vogelenzang on the other hand is a bloody foreigner...

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

But that won't matter a fig to the Daily Heil and its readership.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

OK that's a pretty impressive leap of questionable logic, I'd love to hear more should the topic ever come up.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...de/8404212.stm

Apparently the case against the couple has now been dismissed.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

nice one :)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

What a waste of time and money that was.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

A storm in a teacup that should never have gone to Court in the first place.

"OOOOOO your Honour some nasty people called me names" :rolleyes:

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

well of course it has .it should never have got to court ....

---------- Post added at 16:12 ---------- Previous post was at 16:06 ----------

your so right because the daily mail readership is not racist and back mr Vogelenzangs rights as a citizen .

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Of course they do, He is a White Christian. If this story was the other way around, a Christian accusing a Muslim, then they would be piling on the anti-muslim bile and so would people on this forum.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Good :)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I couldn't agree more Gary. I wonder whet the final bill will be to the taxpayer.... :td:

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

what people ?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Ooh, look, I'm a prophet. Peace be upon me. :cool:

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

But..but...I thought this country was bending over backwards to accommodate Muslims?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

well today its bending over backwards to accommodate the truth .

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Now there's a novelty for you. :)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

but the counter claim was anti christian

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

What counter-claim?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I don't think calling Jesus a minor prophet is the same as calling someone a terrorist because they are a Muslim. That is their religious belief, whereas Muslim bashing is not a Christian belief. (not that they did that, it would now seem).

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Where did you get that from? Not even the complainant claimed that they said that.:rolleyes:

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

But it wasn't Anti-Christian was it? They were accused of religiously aggravated threatening behaviour. The fact that they are Christian is neither here nor there. Unless you'd like to claim that threatening other people is part of religious liberties.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/8401685.stm



---------- Post added at 19:58 ---------- Previous post was at 19:57 ----------

Anyway let's keep this hypothetical since they have been cleared ;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

It is, if you're a Muslim.

Where does anybody(including the complainant) say that they threatened her?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Explaining his reasons for dismissal, Judge Clancy said Mrs Tazi's claim that she was verbally attacked for up to an hour had not been backed up by the other witnesses.

is that the same as lied her head off ???

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Bolleaux...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...ffset=0&page=1

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

And what is the dictionary definition of 'asked'?
Anyway, it seems that it was the complainant who asked the question.:rolleyes:

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

The asking of the question suggests grounds of which to suspect they might be. Unless you come from the Glenn Beck school of debate, in which you think by framing a insult as a question you are not actually accusing anyone.

Are you a member of the national front by any chance? Not saying you are, Just asking the question. Nothing wrong with asking questions.

---------- Post added at 20:18 ---------- Previous post was at 20:17 ----------

You asked where anyone, including her, claimed that was said. You have been provided evidence that the claimant did indeed claim they called her a terrorists.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Evidence?

That's just it, he didn't ask the question(implied or otherwise), she did:mad:.
'will you tell me' states that he didn't ask the question or make a statement of that sort directed at her.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

That's what he claims. And given the lack of independent confirmation, we just don't know who is and who is not telling the truth. Chances are, we'll never find out.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

You asked where she claimed it, not if it was true. It was also the accused who claim she was the one who asked the question. The truth is we don't know who said what just that the claimant and no evidence of anything.

That is what you asked.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Did she say that he actually said it directly or is it that she imagined that he made out that it was what he thought.:rolleyes: The statement by the accused(who won the case) fits the latter.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Which shows that we don't know who said what.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I think there are far more important things to worry about and spend taxpayers money on to be frank.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

the counter claim was the muslim woman denouced the bible and said stuff about Jesus I believe

exactly they didnt do it but maybe the muslim woman was the one causing trouble?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Ah. Fair enough. I thought you meant to say that the case itself was anti-christian.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

We don't know. I don't see why people are suddenly taking their claims as true. This case did not find her gulity of religious inflammation but the defendents not gulity.

By the way, I was saying that I would not consider calling Jesus a Minor Prophet as an attack. That genuinely is a belief Muslims hold. It is not a personal attack on a Christian. The equivalent would be for a Christian to tell a Muslim that Jesus was the Son of God, it is a Christian belief.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

It all boils down to that invisible friend in the sky :)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I only said maybe afterall there is plenty of conjecture in this thread so what if I add a little extra lol

As for the Jesus bit it does show that there was some kind of religious based conversation going on.Now me as a christian sees my views mocked regularly. You only have to look in this forum to see that quite often. I will discuss my views and will pull up those who I feel insulting but thats all I do. Trust me ive faced prejudice and have been threatened with violence because of my faith. Just look at views posted about Jehovahs Witnesses and you will see my point.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Not quite - a more direct equivalent would be for a Christian to tell a Muslim that Mohammed was a tribal warlord who never had any revelations from God. ;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

:tu:

there definitely is a double standard as you have proven here. It appears to be ok to mock Christianity I know ive had it implied to me that I am of a lesser intelligence because of my faith but if a poor Muslim has his faith denounced then its not acceptable

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Jesus being a minor prophet is a aspect of Islam is it not, it is not mockery of Christianity. It is simply a belief. I do not believe in God and therefore do not believe Jesus was the son of god and did not perform miracles. This is not me mocking Christianity either.

---------- Post added at 12:24 ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 ----------

It is not acceptable to mock or insult anyone. I find it hard to accept this kind of protest on this forum because while Christians do get their faith mocked Muslims get it even more. There seems to be a constant stream of anti-Muslim posts on this forum.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

None of which actually mock their faith, extremists within their faith and cultural aspects yes but actual belief in God no, Zingle is right imo the only religion where people can get away with saying it's all fairy tales and make believe is Christianity.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Generally speaking, Christianity is also the only religion that most people have been subjected to (e.g. at school). I dare say that people mocking Christianity is a direct result of people trying to get them into that religion.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Calling them all terrorists or otherwise being suspect of all of them as a whole is a common theme. We don't call all Catholics pedos because of the actions of a very small minority of their priests because we correctly understand the difference between a small subset of people who happen to be catholic and the Catholic community as a whole. Yet it when it comes to Muslims that understanding doesn't seem to be present. Any Muslim story on this forum will bring the people who enjoy sticking to boot into Muslims from whichever cave they inhabit.

---------- Post added at 12:56 ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 ----------

Maybe it's because the of ignorance of Islam. I would still bet most people think Allah is 'the Muslim God' whereas people have a better understand of some basics of the Christian faith in the UK

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Possibly, but the main thing is that for many this understanding has been forced upon them. Against their will. I've never been forced to take part in any Muslim religious activities. I wish I could say the same thing about Christianity.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

None of which addresses the point, Christianity is the only faith that is openly and freely derided.

---------- Post added at 13:29 ---------- Previous post was at 13:26 ----------

Funny both my children go to a non faith school and neither have taken part in any religious activities other than learning about them and visiting a Mosque, ever consider that your parents choice of school may have played a part in your forced attendence of said religious activities?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

And Muslims are one of the only faiths whose members are constantly subjectto attacks on them personally (calling them terrorists etc) because of their faith. Hardly seems much difference.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Oh yes. Absolutely. As it happened, the only Grammar School in town was a Christian one, so choice was rather limited.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

OK some Muslims in this country preach hatred...Fact

There have been atrocities in the country caused by Muslims...Fact

Some Muslims protest whilst preaching said hatred at processions for our soldiers...Fact

I have no doubt there are active Al Queda members/supporters in this country...Conjecture

IMO knowing the above goes on is a fair enough reason to be cautious. I do not hate Muslims but I do know some of them can not be trusted . Its got nothing to do with who they believe its more to do with what some of them believe in IE Jihad

---------- Post added at 13:34 ---------- Previous post was at 13:31 ----------

Yes there is racial tension in some areas of the country but some people are getting so sick and fed up with how this country has changed due to immigration and political correctness that they have just had enough

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Really you dont see the difference between calling some one names and openly deriding their beliefs? I know which is worse and anyone here from any religion will tell you the same.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Not really. It's worse than 'calling someone names'. Constant Press Stories about how they are banning Christmas for Muslims, and so on.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

If the reason people mock Christianity is because of having it forced on them in the past then maybe they should reserve their mocking for those who try to convert them.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

The problem is that it is institutionalised. It's very hard to escape it. That's not to say that I think it's OK to mock people's beliefs (I don't, and I don't generally mock other people's beliefs), but I'd say that it's a very fair bet that if Christianity gets mocked more than other religions, that is a direct result of the fact that it's the dominant religion, and people are getting it forced on them, often from a young age.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

and Islamic families do not force Islam on their young then? thats a rhetorical question as it goes cuz of course we know they do. Its also a lot more prejudiced toward sex than christianity

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Zing: that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that more people in the UK will have had Christianity forced on them (be it though their parents, school, door knockers or otherwise) than any other religion. From that perspective, it's not surprising that Christianity gets mocked more.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I'll never deny the fact it's the "dominant" faith but for example people mock it on CF yet none of the Christians on here have ever tried converting any members or forced it on anyone here. If people want to slag it off and mock due to past experiences then fine that's their right but why aim it at those who do not affect them in any way?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I dont think you are correct.

Perhaps more people will have their religious views expressed to them but that is not forced is it? My daughter is taught about all religions at school so by your definition the majority of children will have Islam Buddah Hindu Christianity etc "forced upon them"

I think by proportion children of Islamic families are more likely to be "forced" into religion than those born into christian familes who a large proportion of do not see the insides of a church at all

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Oh, I agree, and I think you'll find it hard to find a post of mine mocking someone's religious beliefs. Having said that: perhaps it's an indication of how miffed people get at having beliefs forced on them.

---------- Post added at 15:54 ---------- Previous post was at 15:49 ----------

There's a difference between learning about and forced. I don't object to religious education, but other than that I think religion has no place in the school. And you're probably right that proportionally, more children have Islam forced on them, but that was not the point I was making. More people will come into contact with Christianity when they have no desire to do so.

Incidentally, I've never had a Muslism door knocker :)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I think you are completely wrong in this regard Zing....

People who don't attend any church/chapel/temple will not by defination be religious, thus how can they imprint on their children their beliefs regarding any diety you choose to name....

Obversely, any family that regularly attends church/chapel/temple etc ofc take their children to their place of worship with them. This is exactly what happened to me.... When I started in primary school, my parents enrolled me in Sunday School for an hour before church every sunday. I was also enrolled in the Robins, then the Anchor Boys, then the Jnr Boys Bge and eventually the Snr BB. Ofc I could have stopped going to church, BB and bible class, but by the age of 14 I considered myself a confirmed christian. So I didn't stop attending church until I was in my late teens, and had seen enough of the world for my faith to be challenged, and over the years to fall away and for me to finally proclaim myself an Anti-Theist and Anti-Deist.

By and large, religion is perpetuated via the family and its involvement in their church. To say otherwise would be to fool yourself....

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

stick to Brass mate it lasts longer :)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I am christian but I do not assemble anywhere I also do not not preach to my daughter and trust me I am not a fool

daniel talking to someone about something is not forcing them to do anything. You can close the door or walk away I object to your use of the word force in this instance.

I as a christian am "forced" to listen to views of athiests in far greater numbers than christians on this board

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

"forced"

how do you force someone to read a post ?

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

same way as using daniels terminology people "force" christianity on the public. I do not feel "forced" but I was simply making my point about the use of the term forced

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Zing: I was forced at school to read the bible, sing psalms and attend religious services. It wasn't something you could walk away from, or be excused from. Some teachers would make you stay late for not bringing a bible to class. It was a degrading experience which I had to go through simply for having enough brains to go to grammar school. I am not alone in this.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

that does not happen now unless your Catholic. And that will be offset by Muslim children being forced to the Mosques

Your also a lot older and no longer a kid your experience is out of date

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

It may have been a victory for free speech, but why did breakfast insult of Muslim's faith case ever come to court?

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz0ZJ2gQbQE

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Yes, obviously I speak from personal experience, and this goes back a few years. However, that doesn't detract from the fact that a large section of the population has similar experiences. I'm not that old...

I've also never implied that Christians force their beliefs on others more than Muslims. Just that due to the fact that there are more Christians and Christian schools, a larger percentage of the population will have had these experiences with regard to Christianity. As a result, it comes as no surprise to me that more people like to poke fun at Christian beliefs.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Anyway my point was that complaining about Muslims and then getting angry at people who insult your faith seems kind of hypocritical. Religious tolerance should be extended to all faiths and not just the ones you subscribe too.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Oh I agree with that but its funny how society does not see that and there is an imbalance.

It is more likely that a Minority faith will get heard when they complain than someone from the majority faith in this country. After all this did end up in court and even if the accused were guilty of saying what they were accused it was still just an arguement

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

I do believe the only person found guilty of inciting racial hatred was a Muslim though.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

jolly good :)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Muslims believe Jesus is an important prophet in Islam - not minor. The principle difference is that we dont see him as the Son of God. Having said that we still respect Jesus extremely highly as most of the major prophets.

Anyway i better end the lesson before I'm accused of forcing Islam on someone lol.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Merry Christmas Ben and Sharon Vogelenzang :)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

A Merry Christmas to "EVERYONE"...well maybe not the bigoted stirrer Littlejohn.;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

we atheists don't see him as the son of god either;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

Well i have NEVER had an atheist at my door nor a Muslim but i do get the constant knocks on Sundays from the the other faiths. Generally i just slam the door in there face with some form of 4 letter word. Especially if they have bloody well woke me up.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

All these people who say they've had Christians 'bothering' them on their doorstep, in the last 7 years I've had none whatsoever.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

your not there target market though are you, already being a christian .

if you really want bothering get a sign that says no religious callers they cant resist it.
i live near the kingdom hall of jw they knock every Sunday but i forgive them;)

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

you can request to go on the JWs do not knock list. This should be respected well it was here anyway

---------- Post added at 14:53 ---------- Previous post was at 14:52 ----------


so can you


I accept that some people do not have faith in God or any other deity and I am sure you can respect that some people do. Now in the example of the JWs they knock the door because they believe its what Christ wanted afterall he did tell his disiples to become fishers of men and to expand the congregation . I respect them for at least trying same as I do the Mormons when they knock.

Re: Christians arrested for defending their beliefs
 

i have one it says doorstep callers are not welcome .