Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Maybe, I like the idea of France because they have good credibility (as far as I am aware) on both sides.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I cant see this ever ending tbh. Just come accross the following article. Why does it have to be the children that suffer ? Thats what annoys me the most.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5454204.ece

So innocent children anywere in the world who have nothing to do with the conflict who's parents may have even moved with them because of these types of conflicts which they want nothing to do with are at risk.

To me it shows that there is never likely going to be a solution to this conflict.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Israel try to avoid Civilian causalities, shows a lot about Hamas that they would deliberately target children..

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Sorry mate, far too naive :)

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Please explain why?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Israel do not target children, or civilians. Admittedly they are not too concerned with accidental deaths in order to kill their target but, if they can, they do attempt to avoid it. If anything as a PR exercise to avoid international outcry at their actions.

I do not believe they have ever had a policy, or even hinted at a policy, to kill children. That is just evil and sick, by anyone standards. That is if it was what we meant.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

In the interest of balance in links posted

http://frontierindia.net/israeli-pho...-human-shields

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

they bomb mosques

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

See link above for what would be Israel's response.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Some of us have been trying to outline that strategy for days m8. You cannot educate those who will not listen. Rest assured, the web will be red hot with peeps trying to find something to diss it.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Israel have had no problem in the past taking out a member of Hamas in a crowded environement, say a mosque or a market place or a building, knowing full well that there will be children there. They say these deaths as acceptable casualties on their war on Hamas. Its all very well saying Hamas deliberatly stay in highly populated areas and use civilians as human shields but can someone please explain to me where they are supposed to go. Gaza is their home. Do people here actually appreciate how densely populated Gaza is?

As for freedom fighters, Hamas have been fighting a nation that was built as a result of wiping out thousands of thousands of palestinians off their land, by force and terror. They are fighting a nation who on exiting Gaza blew up the airport and the port, and bulldozing 100s of houses. They are fighting a nation who has sieged Gaza, restricting movement of ordinary cicilians, preventing them from travelling and getting work. They are fighting a nation that has contributed in what is described by the UN as a human catastrophe.

I dont remember supporters of Nelson Mandela being described as terrorists when they were burning tyres around the necks of supporters of the old White South Africa.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

As far as I'm aware the ANC never came anywhere close to committing the atrocities that Hamas have committed.
Of course certain elements on the more extreme wing of the ANC did do some evil things, but the difference there was that Mandela or the ANC leadership would condemn such behaviour...hardly on a par with a terrorist organization who not so long ago were throwing members of Fatah to their deaths off of buildings in Gaza.
I'll also add that imo Israel also have carried out some dubious behaviour to say the least, as you say targeted assassinations of Hamas leaders in built up areas with little concern for civilian casualties.
In finishing I'd add both sides have blood on their hands, but to claim that Hamas are freedom fighters like the ANC is absolutely incorrect.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

It's nice to know the Israeli army are using Phosphorus bombs against people in the Gaza Strip. Phosphorus bombs are Illegal under the Geneva convention if used as a weapon - must be used as a 'battlefield smokescreen' - and causes horrendous burns on impact.

But apparently it's alright to scatter it indiscriminantly over heavily populated areas in Gaza. I'm starting to hate the Israelis with a passion.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...009/01/127.jpg

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Those deaths are acceptable sadly, it's even recognised under international law, on the other hand presumably a lot of Israeli civilians are also legitimate targets because most are military reservists, and no I don't think people do appreciate how densely populated Gaza is, more people in one place there than anywhere else in the world.

Actually I do, I even remember Maggie Thatcher standing up and saying they were so, the US had the ANC on their terrorist watch list to

---------- Post added at 07:03 ---------- Previous post was at 07:00 ----------

Why is it then that they wouldn't allow critically ill cancer patients out of the country for treatment that would have saved their lives? Why is it the New York Times reported that Israeli soldiers routinely shoot Palestinian children for sport?


Even patients in need of medical treatment unavailable in Gaza, are often denied passage out of Gaza. Scores of people have died in the past year when they could have been saved if only they had been allowed to travel.

Karima Abu Dalal, a 34-year-old mother of five young children, died on 25 November. She suffered from Hodgkin’s lymphoma, a cancer of the lymph glands that is curable in more than 90 per cent of cases. She was denied access to the treatment she desperately needed as Israel refused her a permit to travel to the hospital in Nablus in the West Bank in November 2007.

In a medical report accompanying her permit request an Israeli cancer specialist had written: `This is a young woman who will die in the absence of treatment and with treatment her chances of recovery are excellent` (underlined in the original).

The Israeli authorities nonetheless refused to let her leave Gaza and the Israeli High Court of Justice refused to intervene. Earlier this year, she eventually managed to leave Gaza to Egypt as an exceptional case, but by then her condition had deteriorated irreparably and she returned to Gaza to be with her family. Subsequent requests for her to travel to Israel to receive at least palliative care to relieve her pain were in vain.

http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=30394

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

To be honest one man's freedom fighter will be a terrorist in another's eyes.

Some former freedom fighters have done some pretty awful things but because they 'won' those do become 'collateral damage' on the way to 'freedom'.

Perceptions can change very conveniently at times...:scratch:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Well what is the alternative for Israel? Hamas store there weapons In highly populated areas so they should be left alone? Maybe the ground offensive is better in this respect so they do not need to bomb houses.

Hamas don't just use public places, they like to use ones like Mosques and hospitals because of the sensitive nature of the target.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Do we have any proof that Hamas stockpile arms in mosques or hospitals? To me it seems like Israel is saying everyone in Gaza is a justifiable target.

Going on from previous posts about Terrorists versus Freedom Fighters, one has to remember that Israels actions, coupled with the inaction of the rest of the world, originally gave birth to these groups. Israel used terror tactics and aggression to drive out muslim arabs from their own land and then settling on the land themselves. Anyone who things that this was a peaceful transition or the arabs agreed to this with open arms would need their heads examining.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Ok, Everyone always states that the Arabs were pushed out. They were, but it's not as simple as some suggest. At the time before Israel there were already a significant amount of Jews in the region and something had to be done. There was no 'country' as such, there was the British mandate of Palestine.

The UN proposed they share the land: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Partition_Plan

It was rejected. The Arabs started to attack Jewish targets and eventually the war occurred and the Palestinians were forced out and barred entry to the Arab counties that claimed to care about them, Jordon even decided to annex a part of the land. Now obviously Israel have done a lot of bad then and since. However the idea that the Israelis forced them all out is unfair, there was a fair proposition on the table to share the land and it was the Arabs, not the Jews, who rejected it.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008...hepalestinians

All very well saying what do you expect Israel to do when being shelled with rockets. Here is an example of how Israeli soldiers have been treating Palestinians as recently as last year.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

looks like Blair has finaly chipped in, must taking a break from the lecture circuit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7813067.stm

So everthing will be sorted out now :rolleyes:

JJ

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Unless he imposes conditions on Israel to remove their blockade of Gaza as part of a new ceasefire deal then I do not see anything he says making a difference.

---------- Post added at 11:07 ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 ----------

All very well discussing falied peace talks in recent years and blaming it all on the Palestinians/Hamas/PLO but let's not forget how the Israeli's originally took over Arab land.

http://countrystudies.us/israel/23.htm

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Agree,

Imposing another ceasefire will solve nothing unless fundimatal problems on both sides are addressed. Weapons being smuggled into Gaza etc and living conditions in Gaza.

JJ

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

With all due respect sir, our grandfathers went to war against a regime that built its power and legitimacy on lies very much like that. Please don't insult their memory by demanding proof that you're wrong.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

It can be argued that Hamas are at war with a regime that has built its legitamacy on the forced expulsion of arabs from their land and has done very little to address it in the face of world opinion.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

And people wonder why the Palestinian people stand up against Israel? The Israeli army are nothing but ****, the leaders of the Israeli army have not heard of the Geneva convention banning them from using certain weapons against the Palastinian people.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

And exactly how does that statement answer my suggestion that it might be inappropriate to claim that Zionists are in charge of the Western media? Surely you're capable of making your point without ripping mine out of its context? This thread has enough wilful misunderstanding as it is ...

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Chris I didn't mean to imply that in my response or to ripping yours out of context.

I am just trying to point out that everyone (well a significant majority) seems to be pointing the blame of this war at Hamas's feet and it can be pretty easy to feel that the media is controlled by pro Israelis.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I think we know that the Arabs were unhappy as they were unhappy with the British/UN proposed split of land in Palestine in 1947 and the Declaration of Independence by Israel in 1948.

For the last 60 years the displaced Palestinians and their allies have waged war on Israel in a vain attempt to reclaim land which they believe is theirs.

If America had not provided support to Israel our TV screens probably would have been filled with images of Israelis being massacred because sadly solutions to this problem have nearly always been undertaken in military terms.

The only Palestinians affected would have been those living or born in the area designated as Israel in 1948. By now, with old age, disease, famine, accidents, war, emigration etc many of the original Palestinians and some of their descendants would be either dead or living elsewhere. So how is it that the conflict continues?

It continues because Palestinians want a homeland and their allies in the countries surrounding Israel are determined that they should have one.It might seem ironic but for some Palestinians born there, Gaza IS their homeland as it is their place of birth.

It is possible for the Palestinians have a decent homeland but they need to give Israel the peace and security they seek.The attacks over the last 60 years have caused Israel to take dramatic and often ruthless steps.They have finally agreed to a Palestinian homeland ( not one that the Palestinians like) and have sealed it off to prevent weapons being smuggled in and suicide bombers coming out.

Gaza is not a justifiable target but the militants firing rockets into Israel are.There is no easy solution but for non-militants it would probably be best ( though by no means simple) to move temporarily out of areas within rocket range of Israel until it is safe to return. In that way, they can avoid being at the sites of the mobile rocket launchers when the Israelis return fire.

As for the weapons being stockpiled in hospitals & mosques, it's probably an open question. Another intriguing question is how is it that a blockaded country seemingly has an unending supply of missiles when logic dictates that they should probably have run out by now? This would seem to suggest that the blockade is not as effective as one is led to believe.

It is quite disheartening, saddening and sickening to see nightly reports on TV of the deaths and destruction in Gaza. One can only hope it all ends soon.

The UN could have intervened by replacing the Israeli troops with a UN peacekeeping force but none of the countries supplying the soldiers want their troops killed ( because of a political backlash by the public in their own countries)and this will happen if Hamas keep firing rockets into Israel. As a result all they can do is appeal for a ceasefire, which both sides are not prepared to heed and so the killing goes on.

The future of the Palestinians is literally in their own hands as they are the ones making the decisions about this conflict.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

This war and all the other wars have been caused by Israel no one else, it's about time the people of the world stood up and took notice and realised what Israel is doing to it's neighbours.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The sorts of scenes going on in Gaza remind me of the actions of WWII Nazis - razing homes, villages and even whole towns in response to the actions of partisans. More than anyone else I'd have thought the Jewish people would see the awful irony of Israel's current policy.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Could you expand upon that claim, with specific reference to each of the Arab/Israeli wars that have occurred since 1947?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Oh dear, comparing Jewish solidiers to Nazis in WWII. You have done the unspeakable. I hope you are wearing your flak jacket.

In all honesty, I'm glad someone other than the usual suspect has come up with that statement. It's heartneing to see that this type of statement is just not confined to those whom everyone believes to be anti israeli or anti semetic.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Blaming one side or the other for all the world's woes is pointless. For the resoultion of this conflict Israel must alter it's policy rather than copying, many times over, the behaviour of those who seek to kill innocent men, women and children.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

There are plenty of people in this thread and in the world out there who are prepared to see the grievances and the misdeeds on both sides of this conflict.

The problem with the 'usual suspects' is that they're as blinkered about Hamas' shortcomings as certain other people are about Israel's.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

If I can butt in, I would say that most of the wars since 1947 that have invloved Israel would not have happened if they had not forced palestinians/arabs of their own land by forceful/terror methods, and stolen land of them.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Both sides are to blame, and the current type support from other countries does not help. Some of Americas help while turning a blind eye to the consequces is wrong as is the the supply of weapons into Gaza.

I do find it strange that a country with no money and subject to a complete blockade can keep on firing rocket after rocket.

Would not the money and effort require to aquire these weapons be better spent on food and medical aid.

By the way the same goes for all the weapons supplied by America.

JJ

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I'm certainly comparing some of their actions with some of what happened in WWII. The Govt. of Israel and its generals are responsible for this action and I've heard quite a number of Jewish people making the same analogy over recent days. It must be much harder for them than it is for me to be so critical of their own people.

I don't condemn Israel for responding to a threat but their actions are wholly disproportionate and likely only to make matters far worse.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I think if you go back through military history you'll find that the same tactics are used by both the forces of good and the forces of evil.

The sad truth is that in any military conflict, either side will do what it has to in order to kill off the enemy. Many despicable acts are carried out during military conflicts.

Another ironic truth is that when all the fighting is over the combatants still have to sit down round a table and agree conditions for peace.

It's a shame that they could not do that in the beginning as thousands of lives would be saved and much misery would be avoided.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Or if the Arabs had not rejected the UN plan and start attacks on the Jewish population back in the 1940s

Not that it excuses Israeli actions since.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

it can just as easily be said that all the wars have been caused by the Arab league's refusal to agree to the UN mandated solution to a 2 state solution.

How far back do we take this! Do I get to claim reparations for the viking invasion into the UK.

It's been said before the past is the past the only way to solve this is to look forward. I think this was proved during the resolution of the IRA conflict

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

You are right. Israel and the Palestinians DO need to focus on the future but bear in mind the IRA conflict was resolved by putting the weapons away & talking out differences and coming up with non-violent solutions.

I, for one, certainly hope that this dispute is not going on in another 60 years.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

It was also achieved by us not resorting to the sorts of tactics that Israel does.

when we did use those tactics it backfired on us.

Internment was such a case.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Both sides have to agree to resolve differences by peaceful means but it still means that weapons have to be taken out of the equation.

There has to be be acceptance, respect and tolerance between the two parties but that will take years to build.

However, it is not impossible and it is a worthwhile aim.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Hamas is a terrorist organisation. These people have no interest in helping the civilian population with food or medicine. Their interest is to further their cause by whatever means, including sacrificing women & children, targeting Israel, & now in desperation, suicide bombers.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Good find, as it seems very even-handed.

page 15 of the same website points out -
"The other major transformation in Palestinian Arab society during the Mandate concerned the issue of land ownership. During the years of Ottoman rule, the question of private property rights was never fully articulated. The tenuous nature of private property rights enabled the Zionist movement to acquire large tracts of land that had been Arab owned. The sale of land to Jewish settlers, which occurred even during the most intense phases of the Palestinian Revolt, reflected the lack of national cohesion and institutional structure that might have enabled the Palestinian Arabs to withstand the lure of quick profits. Instead, when increased Jewish land purchases caused property prices to spiral, both the Arab landowning class and absentee landlords, many of whom resided outside Palestine, were quick to sell for unprecedented profits. In the 1930s, when Palestine was beset by a severe economic depression, large numbers of Arab peasants, unable to pay either their Arab landlords or taxes to the government, sold their land. The British did not intervene in the land purchases mainly because they needed the influx of Jewish capital to pay for Jewish social services and to maintain the Jewish economy."

Page 17 is also quite interesting (imho).

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Reports coming in that up to 40 people have been killed as a result of tank fire on a UN run school in Gaza.

"Doctors said all the dead were either people sheltering in the school or residents of Jabalya refugee camp, in the north of the Gaza Strip."

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...50548920090106

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Dammit, but history will insist on not being all black-and-white, won't it ... :D

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

You know the tunnels brought in vital food and medicine as well as weapons and they have a big interest in helping the people of Gaza, how do you think they got into government in the first place? You had Fatah helping themselves to millions in aid, driving around in limos whilst Hamas fed people and educated their kids, I know who I'd vote for as well tbh

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

That's extremely sad and so unnecessary.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

But no doubt the Israelis will say that it was a Hamas hiding place or weapons stock pile so its not their fault.

Where are the people of Gaza supposed to take refuge if every building in Gaza is a legitimate target? I hope the people in Israel sleep well at night when they see even the limited pictures of kids dying that we get to see here.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The israeli's to me seem to me have always thought they had the right to kill 1000 palestinians to one israeli :confused: its like its there god given right after the nazi attrocities to attack a group of people like an eye for an eye i swear it makes me fume , i just get the attitude when i see israeli politicians smirking when they try to justify the killing of innocent palistinians that none of its our fault, were allowed to kill them because hitler and the nazis went for us. for no good reason to me it seems like they have completely lost the plot or maybe this is the plot jesus if america is supplying them with the most upto date weaponry what chance of we got apart from basic get em anyway we can. Sorry how it comes across thats the way i see it watching the news reports :mad:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

That is moronic, not once do they say they are allowed to kill people because of the Holocaust. There line is they have the right to defend themselves.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

It may be moronic but its just the impression i get watching them defend there actions it makes my blood boil :mad: but what are you supposed to do when they seem to have a god given right so it seems by the lord god almighty "usa" to kill as many palastinians as you want it doesnt matter were the bosses" surely i'm not the only one to feel like there allowed to kill as many of them as they like they are muslims e.g terrorists surely.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Well they perceive their right as being able to defend themselves and they do not seem to care who gets in the way. Also, the terrorists are Hamas and thats who Israel are after.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Personally I know a lot of people who are of the opinion that Israel use the experiences of the Holocaust not as justification to what they do to the Palestinians, but as some form of 'guarantee' in that no one will say anything to them because of what they suffered in the Holocaust.

These people are not morons, in fact many are highly educated. The fact that they are now thinking this way, to me demonstrates how far Israel has gone in its aggression and oppression of the Palestinians for people to start feeling this way.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Well, if I were in one of the Israeli towns and subjected to constant rocket attacks I would be pretty irate that my will to defend myself would invoke such mean-spirited remarks.

They don't need to use the Holocaust as justification for a invasion of Gaza. Hamas, the elected government of Gaza, have been firing rockets into Israel for years. They put up a blockade and this was considered oppression, and now they have overacted and they need to be stopped. However, they have the right to exist and defend themselves.

I am at a loss at what you think Israel should do other than sit there and take the rockets, any relitation would be considered unfair?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Those people need to visit a genuine concentration camp. Have a look round Dachau, or Auschwitz & you will see exactly what the Nazis did, not only to jews, but many others too.

Once they have visited, I guarantee they will never compare this conflict with the holocaust.

Any treatment comparable with the holocaust is completely abhorrent to the Jews.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Here is a graph showing the number of attacks:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ate_2008V4.jpg

In November there were a total of 1212 rocket attacks and 1290 mortar attacks on Israel. (This was still in a time of a ceasefire...). How is a country meant to act when a elected government of another fires 2,500 weapons at them.

Again, I disagree strongly with Israel's actions in the past week, but this was provoked.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7814054.stm

And yet at midday on BBC News a live TV interview with one of the staff there said it was only 3 people who were returning from the toilet block?

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

A ceasefire during which Israel blockaded Gaza, prevented it's people from travelling and working outside Gaza, contributed to over 70% of the people of Gaza living on aid and handouts etc etc etc. Tell me, have the people of Gaza ever been free? Israel might have upheld the ceasefire by not firing their rockets, but what they did is slowly kill and destroy more people than those rockets ever did.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

That was an earlier attack on a different school

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The blockade was the result of Hamas rocket attacks! Look at the number of rockets, they have been going up for ages. The best time for Gaza was at a period of low rocket attacks, when Israel pulled out of Gaza. There is a consequence to your actions and Gaza is suffering those as a result of their own government's actions.

Israel has been shown more than willing to deal with Gaza and reduce tensions as their 2005 pullout showed, so long Gaza responds in kind. They are, unfortunately, also willing to deal out a horrific amount of suffering if they don't. :(

There will be no peace until Hamas are out of power in Gaza.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Er, no. It's certainly not been unheard of for settlers, military types and those further on the right in the past in conversation about military campaigns to mention the Jewish Holocaust. Infact depending on who you talk to it might have come up quite commonly. It's far, far less common thesedays but I have heard settlers talking in such terms since Oslo.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Please post the link where you heard or saw this info. I have only heard of 1 UN controlled school being hit. First reports from the UN controller said 3 dead, then 20 dead. Subsequent reports from the Palestinians say its 40.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

1. "GAZA (Reuters) - Israeli tank shells killed at least 40 Palestinians on Tuesday at a U.N. school where civilians had taken shelter, medical officials said, in carnage likely to boost international calls for a halt to Israel's Gaza offensive."

2. "In a separate attack earlier in the day, three Palestinians were killed in an airstrike on another school run by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency."

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...5053R720090106

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Hamas did not sign up to another cease fire because Israel made no concessions in regards to reducing the blockade and allowing the people of Gaza to be free. Can you please explain how forcing citizens to live in utter poverty and to restrict their movements, to allow for one of the worst catastrophes to build up over a period of time, in a time when rocket attacks have stopped (i.e during a ceasefire) is going to give anyone an incentive to carry on with it.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I am guessing Israel did not trust Hamas, what with the fact they kept attack Israel during the cease fire and before the blockade. A lasting cease fire needs to both assure no more rocket attacks (2,500 is stupid) and no more blockade.

My point is Hamas and Israel are equally to blame for the suffering in Gaza, and I don't like seeing Hamas role in all of this deminised for the sake of making Isreal seem worse.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Do you have a link as to how many rocket attacks were made during the ceasefire? The graph you linked to shows rocket/mortar attacks upto november 2008.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Thanks for that, the first attack, for some reason, was not reported on the news.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

November 2008 was during the cease fire? The cease fire was from summer to 23rd of December? (when Hamas went into overdrive and Israel went crazy)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_2008#October

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

What Im trying to say is that the graph is for rocket attacks upto november 2008. Not necessarily during November 2008. As far as I am aware Hamas upheld the ceasefire. Israel say that they (Hamas) used that time to build up their stockpiles.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Timeline leading up to Israel's first air strikes, Hamas were really stepping up there rocket attacks:

---------- Post added at 17:13 ---------- Previous post was at 17:11 ----------

They didn't uphold it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...l_in_2008#July

List of rocket attacks since July (around the time of the cease fire).

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Actually they did, there are other groups in Gaza you know, in fact from your link

Following yesterday's rocket attack by Aksa Martyrs Brigade a spokesman for the Hamas government, Taher al-Nunu, called Fatah's actions "unpatriotic". He said Hamas was considering the possibility of taking action against those perpetrating the attacks against Israel. Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh called Friday on Palestinian factions to adhere to the Gaza Strip lull agreement with Israel.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

At least some from that link were by Hamas..

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Damien, from the wiki link regarding the timeline of rocket attacks :-

June 27, 2008 Early on Friday, two mortar shells were fired at Israel from the northern Gaza Strip. One landed near Kibbutz Kfar Aza in the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council, and the second one hit an open area. There were no reports of injuries or damage in the latest violation of the fragile ceasefire. Following yesterday's rocket attack by Aksa Martyrs Brigade a spokesman for the Hamas government, Taher al-Nunu, called Fatah's actions "unpatriotic". He said Hamas was considering the possibility of taking action against those perpetrating the attacks against Israel. Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh called Friday on Palestinian factions to adhere to the Gaza Strip lull agreement with Israel. "The factions and the people accepted the lull in order to secure two interests – an end to aggression and the lifting of the siege. Therefore, we hope that everyone honors this national agreement", he said following Friday prayers.[57]
Hamas were not linked directly to any rocket atttacks up until November the 6th. They infact told militants to uphold the truce.

November 6th Israel attacks a 250 meter tunnel going from Gaza and under its border. The tunnel is to designed to capture additional Israeli soldiers and hold them hostage. Six Gaza fighters are killed and four Israeli special forces wounded. Hamas responds by firing 30 Qassam rockets at Israel. The truce agreed to five months ago is starting to founder.[73] Between October 29th and November 6th 48 rockets and 21 mortars were fired from Gaza into Israel.[74] Then, between November 5th and November 12th, 22 rockets and 9 mortars were fired into Israel.[75]
Here Hamas responded to what seems like an Israeli intrusion.

December 19th The cease fire agreement ends. During the six month cease fire 329 rockets and mortar shells were fired. For the six months prior to the truce 2278 rockets and mortars were fired into Israel.[87]
So in the 6months only 10& of rockets were fired into Israel compared to the previous 6 months , of which the first to be claimed by Hamas were in November (following Israeli soldiers killing 6 Gaza fighters)

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Irrespective of who fired first, Hamas & Israel have an issue with each other. It is, or was, only a matter of time before something kicked off. Now it has. Its the people who are suffering, Israel will not settle for anything less than the demise of Hamas.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Makes you think which side are the terrorists doesnt it :mad: i know were my feelings lie

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

And it's the anger (on all sides) that keeps the conflict going (imho).

Everyone keeps harking back to "they did this, but they did that" - they should remember and learn from these events, and try not to repeat them, but not use them for justification for more and more escalation, because it will just get worse for all involved.

I really can't see reason being given a chance, but hope to be proved wrong.

Update - latest from BBC, on newspage reporting the 30 dead at the UN-run school.
"The BBC's Laura Trevelyan in New York says the contours of an agreement are taking shape - international monitors along the Egypt-Gaza border to stop Hamas smuggling weapons and firing rockets at Israel, and the creation of a humanitarian corridor in southern Gaza to ensure that aid goes to the Palestinians.
The question now is whether Hamas will accept such a deal and if a call for a ceasefire will be heeded by Israel, our correspondent says"

Here's hoping, for all concerned.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

This seems to be a massive stumbling block on both sides, not just in Israel and Palestine but here as well, and I'd imagine anywhere this almost intractable nightmare is discussed.
After forty years of atrocities on both sides it becomes almost a pointless argument trying to constantly paint the other side as the aggressor, and yourself as the victim, what matters now is the future, next week, next month and next year.
From a Palestinian point of view they could really pile the pressure on Israel by going along with their commitments to the existing "road-map" to the letter, if they were to do this America would have to be more even handed and put pressure on Israel to follow suit.
It seems to me that Abu Mazen has cottoned on to this, if only he could get the leaders of Hamas to follow suit...because even Hamas must realise that they can't win a military victory which ends in the dissolution of Israel.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7817926.stm

For all those who condemned Hamas for using human shields, and said that the Israeli army was doing all it can to protect civilians and not target them on purpose.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

If that is verified as true then such action is indeed shocking and should be condemned. On discovery, civilians should be extracted by the Israelis to a place of safety away from the front lines.

The problem is that verification of abuse will be difficult as Israel controls access to the war zone.

The only way to get Israel out of Gaza is to call a ceasefire, get medics into the zone to deal with the injured, dead and displaced and then to get media into the area to record the actions there so evidence is gathered of what has taken place as only independent confirmation carries any credibility.

The rockets from Hezbollah in Lebanon are not helpful and are only prolonging the Israeli occupation of Gaza.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

That information was coming from the Red Cross.

As for Hezbollah involvement I direct you to :

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Not content with murdering children in Gaza, the Israeli army targeted UN facilities even though provided with the coordinates of their facilities. This has resulted in the UN feeling it cannot carry out its humanitarian role as Israeli soldiers are firing on them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7818577.stm

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

As someone who with a heavy heart has understood Israel's need to act, this is indefensible, as mentioned above the UN gave the IDF satellite co-ordinates to both of these schools.
The IDF were well aware both of these schools were being used by civilians as a "safe place", the response of course was "we took fire from there", given that that is true, small arms fire, what sort of army fires tank rounds into a building that is known to contain woman and children?
This doesn't excuse any coward from Hamas, what sort of "man" uses a building containing woman and children to fire on an enemy whom he "knows" will fire back?
Like conflicts from the year dot, the longer the fighting goes on the more each side loses its humanity.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

These wholly reprehensible and inhuman actions by the Israelis will serve only to add to the hatred and the conflict. Over the years, I've tended to have sympathy with Israel. In common with a rapidly increasing number of people, I believe, I now feel that sympathy has been misplaced and actually abused by the Israelis in the sense that it allowed them to carry on successfully portraying themselves as the restrained victims of this conflict whilst actually inspiring them to acts of increasingly indiscriminate aggression. This being the case, I can't imagine the scale and scope of the hatred these evil acts will inspire amongst Israel's enemies and those innocents who've suffered directly at their hands. There isn't a Jew anywhere who's safer as a result of what's going on - quite the reverse in fact!

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Thanks for that. I was wrong about Hezbollah. Must admit though I find it intriguing that so many various groups seem to have such easy access to rockets and other military hardware and are able to launch said rockets without interference from the local authorities of the country in which they are launched.

As for Gaza, I don't see the Israelis halting their advance nor do I see any effective action from the rest of the world. As long as rockets are being fired into Israel, the Israelis will continue with their campaign.If Hamas intend to continue doing this, non-Militant Palestinians should head to the Egyptian border to avoid retaliatory fire from the Israelis. I know that it will mean leaving their homes but it is better to do that in preference to being killed. No-one, civilian or military, is safe on a battlefield. Better to leave those who want to fight to get on with it and let those who want peace to leave the battlefield safely.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

It seems like this isn't going to end any time soon.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/world/ar...&in_page_id=64

I do find it strange that 'ceasefire' talks have not involved Hamas. However its unlclear from other news reports whether Hamas have infact rejected any plans.

One thing is clear, the US abstained from the vote, which would make people think that they do support the action.


If whats said below, from the above metro link, is true - and I have no reason to believe it's not true based on what I have been reading over the past few days, then this is another example of Israel's brutality and acts of terror against civilians. I have yet to hear any western government strongly condemming theses specific acts.

Earlier in this thread people have posted opinions comparing Gaza to concentration camps only to be strongly rebuked on the grounds that its nothing like Auswitch. However one has to remember that there are various types of concentration camps, and I don't think we were comparing Gaza to the camps run by Hitler. Some might say living in Gaza could be worse, so would say not.

Anyway the Vatican certainly agree that it's one 'big concentration camp'

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/world/ar...&in_page_id=64


And it seems the Israeli's don't like this critcism, insinuating that anyone who has this view has been subjected to Hamas propaganda.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

It's only a pity the Vatican wasn't a little more enthusiastic about identifying and condemning concentration camps during the war when it might have made some difference.

The deliberately inflammatory language being used here is pointless. It's not going to make the Israelis stop because they believe those who use such language are subject to Hamas propaganda. There is no sense in which Gaza is a concentration camp.

Someone on Today this morning likened it to the Seige of Berlin, and that indeed is far more accurate. But then that comparison doesn't offer so many potential emotive headlines, so perhaps it's not surprising that nobody is opting for more considered comment along those lines.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Israel's leaders have clearly fallen victim to the notion that if you lie, mislead and delude yourself often enough you start to believe your own lies. The bigger danger here is that their lies, misrepesentations and blanket dismissal of all criticism will cause them to drive themselves into a corner in which anything could happen!!! The US has to get to grips with this problem NOW!

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Yes, but they're not going to do that by abstaining in the Security Council, as they did last night, which Israel is liable to take as tacit approval to continue. Unless, of course, that abstention is part of an absolutely mahoosive deal they have done on the quiet to get Israel to behave.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The US needs to add to its global image problem like Brown needs to add to the National Debt. I'd like to think the lights are on and someone's at home in the Whitehouse but can't see it sadly.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

We'd all like to think that, but after eight years, seriously, what's the point in such self-delusion? :disturbd:

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

I agree that the conflict will continue until both sides are prepared to put down weapons.

Hamas were probably not involved in ceasefire talks since the evidence is that they still want to carry on firing rockets into Israel and the Israelis will ignore ceasefire attempts until they stop doing that.

It's hard to view Gaza as a concentration camp since, as far as I know, none of the occupants of Hitler's camps were able to launch rockets.There's no doubt that conditions there are harsh and getting worse day by day.The damage in terms of human lives and in terms of the state of the infrastructure in Gaza will mean that once this is all over..hopefully soon.. Gaza will be in a worse state than it was before.

I feel sorry for the non-Militants there who are essentially prisoners in their own country and innocent victims of an unnecessary war.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

You make a very good point. We are in a time where hatred against the US (and all its interests) can be cranked up to immensely high levels in parts of the Muslim world. Rather than making deals behind closed doors, if that is what they are doing - frankly I dont believe it is, they should be more vocal and visual in their actions. Unfortunately at this moment in time they are just showing a face of in-action and by there refusal to say anything, what many will see as continued support for the Israelis.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The US are doing nothing because they believe that the future of the Gaza Palestinians lies in their own hands.

If Hamas keep launching the rockets, before long there won't be many Palestinians left alive there anyway, so a Palestinian homeland won't be needed because there will be no native Palestinians to populate it.There will also be no Palestinians left alive to tell their side of the story.

I think the US will only say something once Hamas declare a "substantial" ceasefire and permanently cease firing rockets into Israel, but I think such an event is highly unlikely unless of course all the militants are killed, which is very sad and so unnecessary.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The problem is that Israel's leaders are so obviously self-deluded that you have to wonder if they'd even listen to the US - unless it pulled the plug entirely which it clearly isn't going to do. Obama's in between a rock and a hard place now. Expectations for his intervention will be sky high amongst many in that area (if only out of desperation) and if/when they aren't realised the repercussions for peace will be even worse.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

We could look at it in another way. Give them a homeland, one that's not blockaded, and where its people having not been living under recent conditions as imposed by the Israelis and see if they then fire rockets.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

:clap:

Yes - it's ironic that a people so desperate for their own homeland would so readily seek to deprive others of theirs!

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

Given that Hamas' founding charter commits them to destroy Israel and reclaim land owned by Arabs prior to 1947, I would have thought it unlikely that there would be an end to insurgency, even if there were a temporary end to rocket fire. And remember, Hamas is not the only player here, their activities are expedient to Iran's ambitions in the world. Iran will keep pulling the strings for as long as it's convenient to them.

Re: Scores die in Israeli air strikes
 

The reason Gaza is blockaded is because Israel fears the importation of weapons.

Having said that, the fact that weapons are being imported into Gaza shows that the blockade is ineffective.

Sadly, it also shows that rather than bring in materials to build and develop a peaceful Palestinian state, Hamas does import weapons and Israel has every right to be fearful.