Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

There is a simple answer for ya ;). Anything unexplainable by religion was planted by Satan to make us think he does not exist after all that was his greatest feat ;) :D

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Got his number? :D

But I'd have thought that in the interests of fairness and objectivity (and to demonstrate that you don't have.....*cue sinister music*...an agenda) you'd make that amendment to reflect the true status quo?

It sure looks that way!

No idea - I'm not a scientist :D

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Yes, and in the interest of fairness and objectivity, it would be wrong of me to misquote someone, wouldn't you agree?
He can be contacted at 9 Chickweed Lane, C/O Brooke McEldowney.

I thought I made it clear I am aware of many beliefs on how to enter heaven, for most of them "just being human" is indeed the only entrance requirements.

You have to be a scientist to understand your own beliefs? :confused:

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

No, but he seems to think that the fact that people do those things 'clarifies' the entrance requirements. I'm not sure what else he means by that, seeing as he doesn't appear to be considering Jesus at the same time.

Are we way off topic yet? :p:

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Yes it would. But you could point out where he's not quite got it right?

Biblical heaven? I don't know of any beliefs which states that just by being human is the entry requirement.

No - I don't have a view on it, I've never considered it.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Well, he doesn't have much space to say his piece, that was actually quite a lot for him.
Russ has on many occasions only mentioned one of the "rules" to be a christian, yet that does not mean he is claiming that just following that one "rule" makes you a christian is he?


Very, bad CF team members ;)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Our very own Russ. An Agnostic :spin: :)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

In yer dreams :D

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Afraid its against forum policy for me to do that, I've just tried.
Guess you'll just have to stick to using some intelligence.


I've no idea what all the beliefs you know of on how to enter heaven.


So you believe that humans don't evolve, animals do, neandethals are related to humans so they too would have to be decendants of Adam but you've never wondered why you believed this?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Would you like me to amend your sig for you?

I'm not convinced neanderthals are an offshoot of humans. Related of course but I don't agree they are close enough to subject to the same laws. I'd be more inclined to believe God created them and gave them their natural lifespan, a short term version of apes so to speak.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

If I trusted you, I'd have no problem with that, but I don't, so I'd rather you kept your hands to yourself.
Besides, applying your intelligence to the quote shouldn't be an issue should it?

If they're related, they must have a common ancester.
If the ancester of humans is Adam, then he too must be the ancester of neandethals.

I have to agree with regards to neandethals being an offshoot of humans, although I don't believe evolutionist think they're an offshoot either, more, as I said above in relation to the belief you shared with us, they had a common ancester. (your belief that you shared with us being that they are related)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

All I'm proposing to do is put 'Some' at the start and refer it it as the 'amended' Meditation. The problem with it at the moment is people might think it's correct.

Again, that's going on human rules. You know fully well that I believe God's creation are subject to his rules, not ours.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

That's nice Russ, but still would rather you don't go near it.
It's a direct quote, modifying it would be putting words into someone else's mouth, and you've mentioned that you never like doing that or having it done to you.

I know mistakes can be made (and by that I mean honest mistakes and accidents) when modifying people's account details, it happens all over the net every day.

It would also mean going through everyone's sigs and modifying them all, which I doubt anyone would thank you for, nor would I expect you to do that, not even for some of the obvious online petition sigs that I've seen.

So an animal can be related to a human (and we're not talking about the Maine way here!), but not have any biological links?
Could you explain what you base that belief on?

I thought it was your god's rule that an animal can only give birth do another animal of the same species?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I'm not saying I think neanderthals are animals!

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Ah that helps :)
Could you please give us the Russ B explaination of the origin of neandethals?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

There isn't one - as I've said before I've never spent much time worrying about it, and neither should I need to!

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I wonder if my feeling of religious people not questioning things because god is a satisfactory answer to them is similar to your feeling of non-religious people not accepting god as a satisfactory answer?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

So If neanderthals are not animals but look like humans then that means they must be humans or that humans are descendant from them. After all that would seem to be the only sane solution one could come to.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Whether or not that's true, my position is that as long as one person's view doesn't encroach on another's then live and let live - without the petty insults, digs and attempts to change the others' way of thinking. However there is plenty I don't question, simply because I see no need to and don't want to waste my time.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Yes, remember that :)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I think I can safely say I agree with you on this. Every living creature has the same life force(I have no problems calling it a soul).

The only thing that elevates us in the animal kingdom(we are animals after all) is our intelligence.

But I do believe that our superior intelligence is because of evolution, which is obviously where we disagree.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

And opposing thumbs.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Admittedly I tend to get very passionate about this topic, so regrettably I end up making statements(sometimes personal) that only end up harming my purpose in the first place.


But my frustrations are usually born out of a lack of answers from the religious community, but mostly by an unwillingness of religion to review new evidence as it arrives and possibly adapt their view of God(I seriously doubt that if God exists then any one person knows him inside out - so why not be willing to learn more and concede where initial thinking may have been flawed?)


It's Friday and all is well. Spread the love(but not in a Jesus way). :D

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Current thinking is that neanderthals were just as advanced as humans at that point.

---------- Post added at 12:55 ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 ----------

.......thats what ID proponents do all the time.........see Chris's posts about it being ridiculous that the eye evolved spontaneously (so it must have been designed)....when no one is suggesting that it did evolve spontaneously......

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

The eye, the flagella bacteria, all explained convincingly from an evolutionary aspect.


If the whole creationist argument against evolution is based around the eye and the flagella, then it only shows how flimsy and desperate the whole argument really is.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

In fairness, it is quite common in Science for debates to center around a few examples that (appear to) illustrate the point being made particularly well.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

possibly true but they don't illustrate the point particularly well at all.....:D

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Absolutely, and it's fine to criticise it for that. Not for choosing examples per se though. That happens all the time.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

But the argument just tends to be "We think it's it's too complex to have happened by chance, so it must be down to a creator, so god exists". No evidence is ever provided to support the claim.


What kind of argument is that?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

.......to teach our kids about......

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

One you can't question nor expect a straight answer.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

The problem is I find a lot of religions misrepresent evolution. They pretend the theory says it happened 'by chance, like magic' which isnt true. Its made it look stupid that it could have happened. When its simply a process of elimination.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

The eye and the flagella are supposed to be evidence of items that are too complex to have arisen from evolution (by example, as not everything would be considered too complex). As it is, the evidence doesn't stand up, which is rather unfortunate for them as it leaves the theory unsubstantiated. If the evidence would stand up it would be problematic for the Evolution theory.

Obvously, there is no evidence that a creator exists, that is the implication/speculation. Also, I don't believe they say (out loud), that the creator is (the Christian) God.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Because if they did it would prevent ID being forced into schools in the US because it would be teaching a religious belief.
That is the whole purpose behind ID, not to further science, not to further knowledge, but to force the creation beliefs of certain christians upon children without getting caught doing it.

---------- Post added at 13:55 ---------- Previous post was at 13:53 ----------

Opposable Russ, our thumbs are opposable :D /pedant

Or are you saying you're against thumbs in general, which would be kinda cool :D
Although a little bit strange...:erm:

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I know that is the motive behind it, but that's not very relevant in debunking the theory.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Thing is, both the flagella and the eye have been shown to have design flaws(assuming for the moment that they were designed). The flagella has been shown to be a highly inefficient 'motor' and the eye(without recalling the exact biological/scientific details - maybe someone can remind me) is by no means perfect either.

So are we to expect that a being like god who defies the laws of physics and is perfect in every way, designed 2 items that are fundamentally flawed?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Don't get me wrong. I think that ID is a load of tosh which shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children as it's unscientific and an attempt to teach religion to impresisionable young minds through the back door. My point however, was that, when criticising it, please criticise it for the right reasons (as you did above). Not just for using examples as you appeared to do in your earlier post, as that, in itself, is a perfectly valid strategy.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Fair enough. :)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Chimps have been known to kill for fun as have killer whales

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Exactly, suggesting that humans are simply animals, not something special (unless you count the crossword puzzles)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

As have (or so I believe) cats.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Blessed are the cheese makers.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

:tu:

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I reluctantly resurrect this thread, I found these videos very interesting, mainly as it shows a muslim making a sound, reasoned point, not something u see often in mainstream media.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkZm2CxbdI0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmMlY...elated&search=

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

And its happened as predicted way back in April, you see what i mean, you give in once and thats it...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1770

Hope your all happy. :tu:

And before you all go jumping down my throat i suggest you read what i wrote - starting at post 52 before your start to comment.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Didn't we have a thread about that a month or so ago?
I'm pretty sure it related to coursework rather than discussions in lessons. Instead of the holocaust, other historical events were chosen.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34280327-post34.html

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Kind off, i started that argument based on a belief that if you let one "theory" get in the door then what's to stop other equally daft ones getting a foot in too.

Then this happens, proving my point.

But i see there were separate arguments in other threads about the same thing now.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Well, our government don't think creationism should be taught as a science. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/25/id_not_science/

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Whoohoo! :clap:

One less group of nuts to worry about - gives me faith that even though this country is screwed up were not as screwed up as the yanks!

Well done the UK! :D

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I'm absolutely positive that I have already explained that ID is being taught in schools but as a RS/RE subject already...the government haven't changed stance on this at all.They are merely reiterating because someone set up a petition at the government site trying to get them to reconsider.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Faith? How odd.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

why?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

The word "Faith" is not the sole preserve of those that happen to put theirs into a deity that may or may not exist.

I have faith in my friends and my family but have no faith whatsoever in an all powerful supernatural being.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Actually the reason why this is posted is that the government have made it clear that ID or creationism is in their eyes "not science".

Until now that definition has not been made clear.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal? really a Meme
 

its interesting that noones mentioned the 'meme' yet, that explains a lot about faith and many other human idea's.

http://www.memecentral.com/
"Welcome to Meme Central, the center of the world of memetics.

Memes are contagious ideas, all competing for a share of our mind in a kind of Darwinian selection.

As memes evolve, they become better and better at distracting and diverting us from whatever we'd really like to be doing with our lives.

They are a kind of Drug of the Mind. Confused? Blame it on memes."...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
"Meme
According to memetic theory, a meme (IPA: /me:me/, IPA: /me:m/ or IPA: /mi:m/) � a unit of cultural information, cultural evolution or diffusion � propagates from one mind to another analogously to the way in which a gene propagates from one organism to another as a unit of genetic information and of biological evolution.

Multiple memes may propagate as cooperative groups called memeplexes (meme complexes).

Biologist and evolutionary theorist Richard Dawkins coined the term meme in 1976.[1] He gave as examples tunes, catch-phrases, beliefs, clothing fashions, ways of making pots, and the technology of building arches.

Meme theorists contend that memes evolve by natural selection similarly to Charles Darwin's theory of biological evolution through the processes of variation, mutation, competition, and inheritance influencing an organism's reproductive success.

So with memes, some ideas will propagate less successfully and become extinct, while others will survive, spread, and, for better or for worse, mutate. Memeticists argue that the memes most beneficial to their hosts will not necessarily survive; rather, those memes that replicate the most effectively spread best, which allows for the possibility that successful memes may prove detrimental to their hosts.

The idea of memes has proved a successful meme in its own right, gaining a degree of penetration into popular culture rare for an abstract scientific theory."...

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

From 'The Fallacy of Memetics':
Read the full essay at http://tinyurl.com/3bb25a. It starts about halfway down the page, which is published by the Hypermedia Research Centre at the University of Westminster.

Whilst the essay does no favours to my own faith position, it does point out the bizarre situation arch-memeticist Richard Dawkind finds himself in, spending a lifetime propounding atheism over faith, before coming up with a theory which is, in fact, a statement of faith.

I query the use of the word 'faith' in Blue's post because I am curious where he, and others, draw the line. When is faith appropriate, and when is it not? Is it appropriate for Dawkins to push a theory that is, when you get down to it, 'merely' a statement of faith?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I always took memes to be like fads, you know, like "Wicked" spreading across the globe just as "Bad" and "Cool" did before, or with fashion.

Faith in another human being is totally different to faith in to all intents and purposes an imaginary being.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Interesting idea, but as a definition that's a long way short of the theory Dawkins is developing for memes.

How so?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

TBR had 'faith' in Britain/the British. As in 'trusted them to do the sensible thing'. Quite different from a religious faith. For starters, it's an empirical fact that Britain exists.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I trust God to do the 'sensible' thing. How is it different?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

So faith in an entity is only vakid if 'we' all agree it exists?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

How so?

Have you seen the deity you worship yourself?
Are you able to show him unquestionably to others?
Or is your deity an idea in your head shared with many others who have similar ideas in their heads?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Erm, the main thing about your faith is believing God exists isn't it? That's rather different from trusting someone to do the right thing.

---------- Post added at 15:15 ---------- Previous post was at 15:14 ----------

Depends what you mean with valid. It's different is all I'm saying.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Why are you asking me?! The outline popper posted from Wikipedia shows that memetics is a much deeper 'theory' than what you posted as your understanding of it.

I have no intention of defending memetics, I simply observe that based on the Wikipedia entry, there seems to be a lot more to it than you apparently thought.

I'm not certain how these questions are relevant to what I asked you.

Could you please explain to me, if you have faith in someone to do something, why you have that faith in them?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

maybe it was JEHOVAH who instigated evolution , ever considered that ? intelligent design is the new buzzword.... the bible was written at a time when people would not have understood this so adam and eve was an easier idea to digest. Im not sure myself but its something to think about :angel:

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

So what did YOU mean by ''for starters we all agree Britain exists''?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Actually, I edited my post to say it's an empirical fact. Surely, it is not too hard to grasp that having faith that an empirically/objectively observable entity behaves in a certain manner is a different matter than believing in the existence of a supernatural omnipotent being that cannot be objectively observed?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Well in a way the story of Creation can still be true.If you think along the terms that time means nothing to a Deity and that a God's day may be measured in terms of millions of years.

Well that was how I viewed it when I was younger and still believed in a God. :)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

But if it is empirically measured and observed and documented, is it faith?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Hold on a minute.

This whole "faith" thing started becaused Chris T made an 'off the cuff' remark

Implying that it is odd that the Raja (and therefore anyone) who did not have "faith" in a religious context should be able to use the word faith.

So before Russ gets on his high horse

It was in fact Chris T that was initially discounting "non-believers" use of the word.

I for one do not believe there is any difference in the use of the word faith for people or supernatural beings.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Well going by that wiki article, to me it seems I'm on the right track. A meme is an idea that can evolve, expand, and cease to exist etc.
I can see how religion can be seen as a meme, it's an idea, it fits with other likeminded people, so expands. Other religions come along, they fit better or are forced to fit, and the old religion gets forgotten, the death of a meme, and in it's place is the new one, which propergates and mutates as it goes.
Isn't that what happens with religion? A religion "fits" with someone, so they adopt it, and propergate it to their children etc, over time, due to the affect of other memes, for instance homosexuality and divorce being considered acceptable, it changes.


Faith in a human being is based on your actual experience of them, what you know there reaction to similar situations have been, not what you've been told their reaction would be.
For instance, if I were invovled in an accident, left with a broken leg and a complete stranger, if he said he was going to get help, I'd have hope he would, but I wouldn't have faith that he would.

---------- Post added at 15:35 ---------- Previous post was at 15:34 ----------

Yes, of course it is.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

There is no difference. Faith in anyone, or anything. Is the hope, the belief, the desire, the will and the trust that they will deliver, live up to and achieve our expectations of them.

Well that's how I would understand it.

This empirical nonsense is irrelavent

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

But we are talking about faith in an empirically observed entity's behaviour versus faith in the existence of a non-empirically observed entity... It's like saying 'I believe the mail man will be on time Tomorrow' versus 'I believe in the Tooth-fairy' Both are beliefs, but of a totally different order.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

You're making a lot of assumptions. I don't see anyone claiming exclusive use of the word 'faith', only a request for clarification on people's meaning of it. Is it wrong for us to use the same questioning back at those who usually question our beliefs?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Do you only have faith in the deity you worship Russ, or do you have faith in other things?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Not at all, it's called debate.

I don't agree to that. The use of the word faith (based on my perception of it) is correct on both counts.

It is a question of managing your expectations based on personal view points. To a child the tooth fairy and Father Christmas are very real and their faith that they will receive presents is usually justified and rewarded. As you get older and find out the truth about Father Christmas you find out the truth and lose your faith - you don't expect anything.

Whereas the religious amongst us believe that Christ is the truth and therefore are wholly justified in having their faith.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Which is why I said 'both are beliefs' The amount of 'faith' (acceptance of a premise in the absence of objective observations) involved is rather different though...

Edit: Surely, I'm stating the bleedingly obvious here? :shrug:

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I seem to remember that word originally used was the Hebrew yom that has a number of meanings one being a period of time of no specific duration. The other bit that amuses me is people that say God made the world in seven days. What the Genesis has is that the world was made in six days, after all it has that he rested on the seventh so that cannot count.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Speak for yourself, I still believe in Father Christmas.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Not really. People's ideas about religion may shift one way and back again over time, but Christianity is underpinned by a written body of teaching that has not changed.

I agree with your definition of faith in a person (human being). However you are misunderstanding the concept of a Christian's faith in God. The focus of Christian faith is not in whether God exists, it is in God himself, his character, and his reaction to situations - much the same as you stated above with relation to human beings. It certainly begins with a step of faith over the issue of whether he even exists but once that is established in the life of a believer, he can move on to other issues that grow out of that without constantly revisiting that first question. A Christian no more starts each day reminding himself that there is such a thing as God any more than you remind yourself that your chair won't collapse when you sit down for breakfast.

So you say, but how?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I have faith in some things but not as powerfully as I have faith in Almighty God.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Chris: could you clarify why you thought it odd that TBR used the word faith?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

The transliteration is yowm, and it can be used to mean a period of time as well as a specific, 24-hour day. However in the context of Gen.1 it is used repeatedly in conjunction with the words for evening and morning. There is no doubt that the author's intent was to signal literal periods of 24-hour days.

Check out the nitty gritty here:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-b...&version=KJV#5

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

However it could be argued that much of the general public's attitude to science is little different to faith as you would use for religion. Whether pro or anti. The simplified versions of science that are taught in schools or passed on through the media are often portrayed as being more solid than they really are. To be accepted or not without evidence and precious little understanding.

It would be much harder to cover if they had to explain fully the limitations of particular theories, the gaps in knowledge and understanding, and the significant differences of ideas as to what is true together with the evidence. You do occasionally get that in the media but not that often and not that well. However if it were done in school together with the teaching of the philosophy of science and the scientific method then I think we would all be better off. You might even get more children interested in science.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Simply because Blue's previous contributions to this discussion suggested that he (and others) hold faith in pretty low regard. I thought it would be interesting to challenge it and see what people understand faith to be and what its place is.

And it seems to have developed into a very interesting discussion. :)

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Then how come there are so many sects?
How can Russ justify his statements that catholics are not christians if they use the same written body of teaching that has not changed?
When you say changed, at what point do you consider it unchanged?
The council of nicea?
After all, the written body of teaching was changed dramatically at that point, with many parts of the written body of teaching being discarded.

Hence the "to all intents and purposes imaginary"
You base your faith on your deity not on how you know it to react, but how you have been told by others it will react, so you faith is based not on what you know of the deity, but on what you know of those who have informed you, many of whom you have not met and cannot meet, as they lived approx 1,950 years ago.

How is it not?
Using the empirically measured and observed and documented data that shows my chair will not fall over if I sit on it properly, I have faith that when I sit down, it won't fall over.

---------- Post added at 16:17 ---------- Previous post was at 16:16 ----------

Is there any reason why the way you have faith in other things, such as a friend, would be any different to the way someone else would have faith in a friend?

If he catches it in time, that question is also to Chris T

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I see where you're coming from, but I don't fully agree. One of the premises of 'good science' is that it should be replicable. And, in principle, people can. (Now where did I leave that particle accelerator).

Again, I kind of agree, but there simply is not enough time in the curriculum. Further education seems more suited to this.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

The difference however between Joe Public's faith in science and faith in religion, is that someone who does understand the science has done the work to show how their theories are satisfied with observation for instance, while with religion, it's based on hearsay and no direct unquestionable evidence.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Very difficult to say as I don't know how much faith that hypothetical person has or how it's measured.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Not talking about the amount of faith Russ, talking about why you have faith in someone, not the specifics.
For instance, do you have faith in someone because you've seen what they've done before, you know their opinions and values?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

There are a few reasons I suppose, ranging from past experiences to reputation to faith by association.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

iv not yet read the essay or for that matter looked up the relationships of HyperMedia Research so cant really comment to much there,but i do have a problem with this part at least
"Although social science may not appear as positivist as biology, at least many people working in this field have recognised the fundamental specificity of the human species.

Unlike other animals, we not only possess consciousness, but also are capable of acting collectively to change our own circumstances. "

perhaps im misunderstanding the context, but it seems they are trying to imply that humans are the only animals that can and do this, thats wrong...., and can be seen by anyone that cares to look at the other inhabitants of this world, not least..., the very apes we are said to come/evolved from, and show all the hopes/weaknesses and actions we possess, and many other creatures living here too.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Do you think other people have similar reasons for having faith in people they know, or do you think everyone has different reasons, ie not relying on past experiences or reputation?

Or to put it more simply, are you the only person to use past experiences of someone to have or not have faith in them?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Whats the question.in a nutshell please...

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

for me and i suspect many people, its a learned response, as in you have faith or trust that that person is reliable and has proven in the past they can be trusted to do as they say, and so you have faith in them.

hence the expression, trust has to be earned, so i supose faith has to be earned to, or is that a meme, as in, well they were proved to be reliable and put you on the right track or thought, so its reasonable to also link their thoughts/teachings to another truth/or NOT that faith exists!!!!, round and round we go...

---------- Post added at 17:26 ---------- Previous post was at 17:03 ----------

i think it would be only fair to include the word 'yet' in the 'omnipotent being that cannot be objectively observed', after all it might be the case one day they can finally observe these things....

---------- Post added at 17:39 ---------- Previous post was at 17:26 ----------

sure, infact more so, as now people can see this 'empirically measured and observed and documented' thing that backs up the learned faith...

---------- Post added at 17:55 ---------- Previous post was at 17:39 ----------

you dont need to be religious to beleave that jesus existed, infact i think many/most people do think he did, he was just another bloke that was hard done by, and had his own memes to deal with for his timeframe, he earned a few quid here and there working with wood,and perhaps later found he could make more money and fame in politics and arbitration etc..... its all relative, and in context of the times i supose.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

I have no idea, I don't spend much time wondering about how other people utilise faith - you'll have to ask them yourself. As you're aware faith is personal.

---------- Post added at 18:26 ---------- Previous post was at 18:22 ----------

Surely then it's no longer faith but 'proof'?

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

im suprised at that answer, after all the collective is suposedly better and so it would be in everyones interest to understand that collective thinking to get concensus and deeper understanding...
---------- Post added at 18:26 ---------- Previous post was at 18:22 ----------

no its not, its just an extension of faith, after all just look at all the people of faith, many people seem to have more faith in the book (whatever book that might be) than they do of their fellow humans.

even though many of these books are carbon dated and show they are infact a collection of works over many years/centurys ,not infact a one and only time original collective work of the founders that were there if you will...

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

But it's none of my business what other people believe in.

Re: Creationism vs Evolution, Equal?
 

Creationism = thinly-veiled religious education (largely specific to one religion, too, do you think Sikhs or Muslims really want to know every little detail about how God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and had a kip on the seventh?)

Evolution = common sense. Granted there's still some evolutionary gaps (the "missing link", for e.g.) but anybody in their right mind can see just how similar we are to apes, right down to a genetic level. That isn't just coincidence.