Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Thing is you have to keep in mind that in this case there was no response from the woman at all. DL know that they would loose, without a shadow of a doubt, if the accused turned up. Even worse (for them), it would prove the had no case against anyone and set a president for the use of IP addresses and their claim that the person paying for the service is responsible for everything that happens on it.

No, what is shows is that they have discovered an excellent scam. A letter costs, what, £1 to print and send to someone. It could potentially generate £600+ in return. No real evidence or court hearing required.

I have had three letters now, from three different companies. Refuted them all. Not heard anything more from any of them, except DL who currently owe me over £300 in costs.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

What?

They haven't paid up for the small claims you claimed you WON from them?

Shocking.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Yes please do.

From my laymans understanding of the second paragraph, they are suing you becasue you have at some time connected to a bit torrent on which it is possible to obtain there clients software.:shocked:

So basically will all P2P users please pay us £600 please? :dunce:

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

That is correct. They are currently trying to appeal it by claiming they were not given enough time to prepare, which is why they did not turn up to the hearing. They tried to get another hearing for next month when they knew I would be away, but it has been postponed until June now.

Not quite. They don't actually know if you were connected to any torrent or tracker. All they have is an IP address, which identifies nothing.

When your car is caught speeding by a speed camera, they send you a notice asking you who was driving at the time. They have no way of knowing who it was, but the law does require you to make a reasonable effort to work out who it was. It doesn't matter who owns the car, only who was actually driving it at the time.

Civil law for copyright infringement has no such requirement. It is up to DL to prove that you personally did it, which they simply cannot. There is no technological way of doing it, short of hacking into your webcam :)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

It is not true that they will not take you to court if you have representation. This happened to my friend who lost at court in his application to set aside a default judgement. He also responded to their letters and was in telephone communication with them throughout.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

The problem here is nobody believes you. What you keep posting flies in the face of all the other evidence to the contrary. There has not been one single reported court case that DL have won and considering the publicity surrounding their actions, such as scaring pensioners in to thinking they've downloaded Shaving Private Ryan or whatever, you'd think DL would be eager to publicise a case that has actually gone in their favour.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Yes, to be fair and I agree with Russ, if such a thing had happened, it would have been all over the Internet.

Most readers here are actually waiting for this to happen, and its likely that it won't if there is any hint that a person is being legally represented, especially if that representation has experience in Internet Protocol (IP) technology.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Further to what Russ and Toto have said, and for the moment assuming what you say is true, these circumstances are somewhat different because DL already have a judgement in their favour - a default judgement, because your 'friend' didn't turn up at court for whatever reason.

DL are *not* going to waste time and money chasing a case through court they know they cannot win. They *will* go to court to defend a judgement they have already won. Otherwise they are simply walking away from possibly thousands of pounds that is already theirs for the collecting.

And in any case, M'Lud is always likely to take a dim view of someone who's appealing against a judgement he previously made to the best of his ability considering the defendant couldn't be bothered to turn up, meaning that DL stands a reasonable chance of hanging on to the cash they have won.

The experiences of your 'friend' do not automatically transfer onto all the dozens of other cases out there, which have not yet gone to Court. DL has no guarantee of success in any of these cases.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

It would be interesting to know how much DL receive of this 16K.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Indeed.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Well, under UK law as I understand it, you can only claim the amount of money you lost, plus legal fees. Let's for a moment assume they can prove you uploaded a file to them (which of course they can't, but for the sake of this exercise let's assume), then they might be able to claim the up to the retail price of the game/video in question. Of course, they would have a hard time arguing even that, since there is no evidence that you uploaded to anyone but them and of course uploading to them does not translate into a lost sale.

In fact, uploading to anyone does not automatically translate to a lost sale, even if there were some magical way to prove that happened.

They have absolutely no case, not a leg to stand on, nothing. It's just a scam, designed to scare innocent people with little technical knowledge into paying them hundreds of pounds.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

To be proved sir.........and innocent?

I'm not totally convinced that that is the case for all they have contacted.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

In the vast majority of cases, those who they have contacted are innocent. They may be liable for a breach of copyright, but that's a civil matter - guilt or innocence doesn't come into the equation unless outright, large-scale piracy can be proved. That's then a criminal matter. But DL aren't launching criminal prosecutions, they're chasing people through the civil courts.

</pedant> :D

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Well, look at it this way, every single person who did not pay up and challenged them was not sued. If they had a case, they would make it.

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. DL have not managed to prove a single person's guilt. Therefore, everyone so far accused is innocent.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Nope, in a civil case innocent till proven guilty is not on the cards purely as it's one entity against another...both can't be innocent can they???

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

As stated in post 414.

There is no guilt or innocence in a civil court. You are either held liable, or not liable. If you're liable, you pay money to the other party in order to discharge that liability.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I was just trying to put it in language a layman would understand. As I have said many times, it is not a criminal court, it is a purely civil matter.

What I meant was you are not considered to have committed copyright infringement and to owe anyone reparations for said infringement, until the court decides otherwise. The exact legal position is that anyone can claim someone else owes them a debt, but if the other party disagrees then the debt is unenforceable until decided upon in a civil court.

If you believe otherwise, then know that you have infringed on my copyright you now owe me the sum of $1,000,000,000 to be paid immediately ;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Sorry wouldn't work as the site is copyright of the owner not the poster who by the T&C's gives away rights to the post ;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I'd be very, very careful about trying to claim you own the copyright on forum posts. Consider that if someone posted something defamatory, or even illegal, you are claiming to own that material and as such could be held accountable for it.

For that reason most website operators, especially those who accept user created content, do not claim ownership of posts made. They sometimes include an unlimited license to re-distribute/sell/use content (see the recent Facebook TOC scandal), but they are always careful to maintain their "common carrier" status - i.e. they are not liable for anything posted on their site, just like BT are not liable for abusive phone calls made on their network.

I'd suggest getting your Terms and Conditions checked out professionally. There are quite a few problematic and contradictory sections. You also need to change the registration page because the current version uses a text box which I can edit, and I always delete everything in such text boxes as a matter of course ;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

The T+C are fine - I have made a slight change to some of out of date information. The T+C clearly states who is liable and responsible for what they post.

And there is no edit box on the registration pages - Nothing can be added or changed?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

You definitely can edit it:

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2...leforum.th.png

I'll reiterate my previous comment too - you cannot both claim ownership of posts while at the same time denying responsibility for it. It doesn't matter what the T&Cs say, they can't override the law.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Reiterating a point doesnt make it correct.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

No need to be like that, I'm only trying to help. Although IANAL I have studied law at university level.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Which type of law, and to which level at University (1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th year)? Only reason I ask is that I know someone who did a bit of commercial law in the first year of her course, so I wouldn't ask her for advice on criminal law? ;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

TBH if there's an issue with the site it should be discussed in the 'Website' section, and not here - it would be nice if we could get back on topic now :)

Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Hey guys was wondering if any of you had an update on this story. Are people still getting letters out there and has anyone been forced to pay their fine or been threatened with any other kind of action?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Well DL have not paid their fine yet, but I'm hopeful that they eventually will :)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

How long before you can force the issue?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I have a little update. After few months they sent another letter. very brief stating :

We refer to previous correspondence regarding infringement of our client's copyright in work ...

We are currently awaiting instructions from our client in relation to the various points you have raised in your last letter. Once we have our cleint's instruction we shall revert back to you.

In the meantime, we expressly reserve all our client's rights.


I believe there's no point to write back to them right? The letter is from 13/03/09. I sent mine like 3-4 months ago.. That was quick:D

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

No need to write back, but keep that letter safe in case you need to refer to it.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

It depends how long it takes the Small Claims Court to sort things out. I think there is still a backlog from all the bank charge claims.

---------- Post added at 15:58 ---------- Previous post was at 15:50 ----------

I'd just ignore it, don't waste any time with them.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

The Register has this as an update about this fiasco.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03...lyons_apology/

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Shame the guy had to waste 150 pounds on a lawyer.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

They get you one way or another.

As Lionel Hutz said 'could you imagine a world without lawyers'?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I got another letter form Davenport.

They want me to provide some information about my router, manufacturer, model, how many letters and digits is used to protect my network etc.

then as I suggested in my letter written to them, they asked me to give them full names of people that lived with me at the time of this alleged infrigement. and if i know who could get access to my network - did i authorize that person and give full details of that person.

But on the other hand how could I know that person if someone theoretically could gain access to my network without me knowing it right?

Should I write back and give them all needed information, at least about router and hardware stuff?


edit:

that's their words:

"You state that you have a secured wireless network and/or have an internet connection which is shared with a number of individuals at your property.

In order to enable us to assess what you say as a matter of evidence, we would ask that you please provide the following information applicable at the time of the infregement (and anyh relevant changes made subsequently)"

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I think I'd send them a two word response TBH - they're asking you to give information that could potentially incriminate someone else, guilt is up to them to prove.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

So what you're saying is just to write "c'ya in court?"

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Well, I'm not qualified to give legal advice, but I'd have been tempted not to even bother responding in the first place (or, if I did respond, it would have been two words long and I might have been tempted to enclose something nasty in the envelope with it!).

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Very interesting.

I would contact Which? magazine at whichcomputingnews@which.co.uk specifically Emma Mash about this as they are clearly fishing for information from you in a manner which I'm not quite sure they're allowed to (or it is ethical to do). This could be another thing to report them to the SRA for.

Briefly the CDPA 1988 requires for you personally have infringed copyright, or to have authorised another person to do so. Davenport Lyons do not have evidence that you have done this - in fact they even go to great lengths to state that they are not saying you did it, or have it on your hard drive, just that your connection was used to do it. Thus, their case under the CDPA 1988 vanishes in a puff of smoke.

Although the standard of evidence in a civil case is just balance of probabilities, the fact remains that you say you did not do it and they have no evidence it was you at all. It is not up to you to help them. They should have gathered the required evidence themselves.

Any form of wireless encryption can be broken, with various degrees of triviality. They are clearly fishing for other people to write to, and to asses whether your story rings true (e.g if you had a low security WEP password at the time). They really should have made up their minds on this BEFORE they sent the first letter and I'm not sure if you're obliged to give them the information. They've dug their own hole and now they have to lie in it.

If I were you, I would visit your local CAB / Solicitors surgery. Michael Coyle at Lawdit has previously offered free telephone advice, which if he's still providing would be well worth it. Also - contact Which? ASAP.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I wrote to Which?.

Actually I forgot to mention that in my letter from November I asked them to provide me with evidence that they're accusing me of doing this AS a PARTICULAR PERSON and not as a account holder (cuz that's what they actually did - that's how they got my adress - because BT can provide only account holder's name - they don't know who's living with me at the moment). But being an account holder isn't a crime. Even in case of infregement by someone in the household, cuz still you can't prove who exactly was it. I don't remember where I've read it but accont holder can not be held responsible for actions of people in the network. Am I right?

There's one thing I don't understand from that letter (forgive me, I'm foreigner so I'm still having some problems with that kind of language);

".... explain what inquiries you have made since receiving our letter of claim as to whether your internet connection was used to infringe our client's copyright..."

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

They are phishing for information here. You should not provide it. You are under no legal obligation to. If they want to build a case it is up to them to do the investigation, not you.

I would write back to them stating that you are unwilling to provide the information they have requested, and repeat your request to see any evidence they might have. You might also want to include an invoice for say 100 pounds, to cover your time and costs.

---------- Post added at 04:24 ---------- Previous post was at 04:19 ----------

Tell them that you are still waiting to see any evidence they have so that you can investigate further. Be clear that if they want you to investigate, they will be charged at £100 per hour for your time. Ask them to agree to this in writing if they wish you to investigate.

Once more, state that you do not share the file, and that you did not authorise anyone else to share it, and that they have still not provided any evidence or identified any individual who may have infringed their client's copyright.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

This is pretty disgusting. I'm actually quite horrified at this.

Davenport Lyons' clients should really do their own investigation, seeing as they are the forensic experts. DL have no place in becoming some kind of police force and asking you to do their clients' work for them. Furthermore, this is showing exactly how weak their method of IP fishing is.

Note, that in the past when asked for more evidence off Davenport Lyons, they have merely replied "we feel we have given you enough evidence" which it is worth considering writing in reply. Cook1984 has hit the nail on the head, It should be enough that you have denied you have done it and you have not authorised anyone else to do it. Davenport Lyons do not even accuse you - just your connection.

If you like, you could invite them over to your house to shout at your phone socket until £500 drops out. It would achieve the same thing.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

It might be worth forwarding copies of all the letters to the Solicitors Regulation Authority too. They are currently investigating Davenport Lyons and I'm sure they would be very interested in this.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I wrote back to Davenport. gonna send it out tomorrow.

nobody from Which? replied...

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I received an identical letter asking for information on make, model and serial No. of router used and what enquiries I'd made to find out who did infringe the copyright.

Stupid me, thought they were maybe going to see sense and drop the accusation.

I wrote to Which and they did reply. They contacted DL in February about this.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Here's my story so far..

Got letter last November informing me my ip address was caught downloading at 9.01am one day last May downloading and uploading a music album by Scooter over bittorrent.

It didnt surprise me as I run a PC repair shop and have many customers PC's connected to my network at any point in time. Many riddled with hijackers and other virus based software.

I contacted Lawdit solicitors and gave them my mitigation that as an PC repair business it may have been one of my customers PC's that continued downloading / uploading when it was connected to my network at the start of business (9am). I was advised that this would not be going to court and for a fee of £50 plus VAT they would write to Davenport Lyons on my behalf.

Heard nothing for three months then Lawdit sent me a letter from DL stating that they did not say I had deliberately downloaded / uploaded the file but were proceeding with the case on the grounds that my IP address was enough to secure a victory.

Another £50 to lawdit secured a final letter to DL from Lawdit telling them they would defend my case vigorously.

Today they received a reply stating that if payment was not forthcoming with 14 days the will start proceedings against me. Lawdit said it would cost me £3000 for my defence and if I loose DL's costs could amount to around £15000.

My Dilemma:
I can not afford to pay for a defence (lawdit said no to a 'No win No fee').
I could defend myself (badly)
Or i could just pay up.

But I have a real problem with paying their demanded £505 as this will be seen as an admission. Therefore I can no longer allow it to happen again which means that I con not allow any of my customers PC's to be connected to my network in fear of some torrent download software running behind a hijacked (loacked) PC.

So therefore DL will have effectively put me out of business as i will no longer to be able to ply my trade.

I am going to email Lawdit and ask them if I pay can we do DL for taking my business away.

Any advice would be welcome

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

More advice will be forth coming I am sure, in the mean time have a look through the thread, this particular issue has been touched on in depth and if IIRC it bodes well for you.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Phew! I thought I had problems. I can't afford the £500 DL want therefore I can't afford a solicitor.

I have seen so many times the Lawdit solicitor was helping for free but when I contacted them they wanted £70 to write a letter which should put a stop to it all. Ha! I'm wondering now if they aren't on a money making scam of there own.

The matter still hasn't been resolved for me but I think I might have made the right decision not to use Lawdit but wrote to: my MP, Watchdog and Which.

Good luck with it, I think you'll need it:(

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Davenport Lyons take great care to not accuse you of anything. Just your connection. They do not have evidence of you doing anything, which is required to bring a case of copyright infringement.

They merely state they will hold you responsible for your connection being used at time point X for distributing file y.

This is legal gibberish.

If this were the possible basis of a court case, then ISPs, internet cafes and wireless hotspots would be in extremely hot water and would be getting dragged to court left right and centre.

They aren't.

This whole campaign is an intimidation tactic, which an awful lot of people fall for. They don't need to lay out any money on a court case - plenty of people pay up the £500 to make it very profitable indeed.

Also, if they had such super duper evidence, then in their history of nearly 3 years doing this they would have taken someone who isn't imaginary (or rather who doesn't ignore their letters completely) to court and won by now.

I know several people who have had the third letter and are being represented by Lawdit. They are simply practising justice by mailshot again. Even if you do end up in court it seems you have a more than adequate case.

Relax.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Probably not what you want to hear, but you really shouldn't have those PCs networked if you suspect that they're 'riddled with hijackers and other virus based software'.

You're increasing the risk to the machines of other customers, you're allowing that software to continue to contact the Internet and do whatever it was designed to do, and you're opening yourself up to all sorts of possible issues (this one with Davenport Lyons being only the tip of the iceberg).

Onc a machine is suspected of being compromised in that way it's got no place on a network with any other machines.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I can't believe anyone has responded let alone paid money to these people!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I am now on my 3rd letter from Davenport Lyons, everytime I respond they come back with more questions. I have repeatedly stated my innocence, given examples of how this could have happened and asked them to provide some proper evidence against the person they "know" commited the offence. They have never responded to any of my questions, just asked more of their own. This time I have had the request for router info/passwords etc and they are asking me to implicate a third party! Do i actually need to provide this information? Is that not an invasion of privacy?

At the moment I feel that this is going to go on forever, how can I get rid of these people. I have genuinly done nothing wrong and feel I am being persecuted, why should I have to pay Lawdit or anyone else to defend my innocence?

Does anyone know of a genuine legal statement that I can respond with to get them off my back. There are lots of useful posts on here and it has been a great support but it is difficult to decide which advice I should follow as not sure if all posts are accurate and there is lots of conflicting advice, for example I would definately not ignore the letter as I don't wish to end up with a default judgement!!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I'm in exactly the same position. No-one in our house did this and I feel the same way about paying for help with something I didn't do.

I wish I knew of something to make it all stop. I've gone through all the forums I can find trying to find real help.

I've sent a letter back with the router details but wouldn't give any password and as for making enquiries - I can imagine the reaction if I questioned neighbours about it, no-one is going to admit it anyway.

Maybe they are just trying to wear us down until we give in and pay.

When you reach 59 years old with no criminal record, not even a speading ticket, the thought of going to court is scary but I, for one, will not give in.

Good luck with it squidge.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

We are not giving in either, but are worried about the implications these accusations of criminal activity will have on us, My hubby works for the health service and any sniff of a record and he'll be out of a job. I have just e-mailed Which as they have been looking into the matter, hopefully they can give me some pointers. If they do I will pass them on.

The problem we have is how can we prove our innocence when we havn't a clue as to how these things work, we don't know anything about downloading/uploading all we can do is repeat what others tell us.

Good luck

P.S Has anyone out there stopped receiving letters or been told their cas has been dropped?

---------- Post added at 13:38 ---------- Previous post was at 13:35 ----------

Just noticed you've already written to which minimum sorry!!!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

They have absolutely no right to the information they are asking of you. They are simply fishing for information that they hope might make their case stronger. You do not have to respond to their questions. I wouldn't expect them to respond to yours either.

That said, do not just ignore this as you don't want a default judgement if they do decide to go to court.

Others have successfully written to DL in a way that has made them go away. I believe there are examples in this thread. I appreciate it's quite long now but I think you really ought to read it all as you may get useful pointers from it.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Which did write to DL on my behalf and I thought the last letter was a result of that but found out here that others have the same letter.

Chris, how would you know when DL have stopped? They leave months between letters and I can't imagine them writing to say they made a mistake and will drop the matter.

There is far too much to read it all and a lot is youngsters full of bravado.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Having never had a letter from them, I don't know how you would tell when they have 'stopped'. I suspect you may never get a 'we will now leave you alone' letter. Perhaps the best you can hope for is for them to quietly drop it. I think you're winning so long as a court summons doesn't land on your mat. And the evidence from those who have been through that process is that those who have shown themselves willing to defend the issue, don't end up in court.

---------- Post added at 14:02 ---------- Previous post was at 14:00 ----------

Incidentally, there may well be too many posts full of hot air in this thread, but you can narrow things down a bit. Have a scan though until you find someone talking sense, then click their name to the left of their post and choose 'find more posts by' from the drop-down list that will appear.

Then scan down the results page and pick out their posts in this thread.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

If I ever get a letter from these crooks I'm going straight to a solicitor as I would with any such letter and meet them in court...If it ever got that far.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

For anyone that's being bothered by these vultures, I'd suggest firstly reading this thread and then popping down your local Citizens Advice Bureau or sending them an email

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/getadvice.htm

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Thanks Chris, I've got to page 17 and getting fed up. I'll try 'find more post by'

---------- Post added at 14:36 ---------- Previous post was at 14:34 ----------

Apparently Citizens advice advised one of there own volunteers, who was in tears as she hadn't done it, to just pay up!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Doesn't shock me actually, some CAB's are fantastic, others sadly leave a lot to be desired I'd still give them a go though.

This members advice was useful IIRC try searching the thread for his posts

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Okay, everyone needs to calm down I think.

Firstly, don't worry, there is absolutely no way you will get a criminal record. Copyright infringement is not a criminal offence, only a civil one which does not give you a criminal record.

Secondly, you will not have to pay Davenport Lyons anything. There is nothing they can do. They are just trying to scare you. If they could win, they would simply sue you rather than demanding money.

I know they can be relentless sometimes, but you just have to be firm with them. In your letter, as well as making it clear you did not infringe the copyright in question, state that you will not conduct an investigation on their behalf and that further legal correspondence will be billed at the rate of £100 per hour. If they write to you again, enclose an invoice for that amount and a copy of your first letter (don't waste time writing a new one). You do not have to respond to their questions, just repeat your statement that your did not do it.

---------- Post added at 15:01 ---------- Previous post was at 14:54 ----------

Okay, everyone needs to calm down I think.

Firstly, don't worry, there is absolutely no way you will get a criminal record. Copyright infringement is not a criminal offence, only a civil one which does not give you a criminal record.

Secondly, you will not have to pay Davenport Lyons anything. There is nothing they can do. They are just trying to scare you. If they could win, they would simply sue you rather than demanding money.

I know they can be relentless sometimes, but you just have to be firm with them. In your letter, as well as making it clear you did not infringe the copyright in question, state that you will not conduct an investigation on their behalf and that further legal correspondence will be billed at the rate of £100 per hour. If they write to you again, enclose an invoice for that amount and a copy of your first letter (don't waste time writing a new one). You do not have to respond to their questions, just repeat your statement that your did not do it.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

On reading some other forums i am becoming increasingly worried that this is never going to go away. Even when Lawdit have written to DL on behalf of some of the accused, they have still not backed down, standing by their argument that an IP address is enough and that they will obtain a court order to go to the ISP and obtain more information.

I am going to write back today and tell them the truth in that I can't provide info about my router etc as I no longer have the same ISP or equipment....not even the same computer. God knows what they will come up with next, some people on the other forums have been corresponding for up to 2 years!!!

I'll give DL one thing....there bloomin persistant. Incidently my letters seem to come through quite quickly, I have had 3 since end of Jan, some people are waiting months between letters....not sure if this is of any significance.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Welcome to the world of law.

As cook 1984 said, this is not a criminal matter, you will never get a criminal record from this business.

Davenport Lyons have certainly displayed quite a flurry of activity recently. This isn't that unusual behaviour. It's probably either to get everything in before the SRA complaint is completed, or to unsettle you.

According to UK law, they have 6 years from the date of the alleged infringement to take you to court. It is astonishingly unlikely that they will admit they are in any way wrong, preferring instead to let the 6 years lapse without comment.

It is also astonishingly unlikely they will take you to court if you have already replied and denied. Davenport Lyons take great care never to accuse you of doing anything - they have no proof of that. Their only evidence is an IP address which only identifies your connection. They state, with grand words and much lawyerly hand waving that they will hold you responsible for the infringement.

There is no legal method for them to do this (which doesn't stop them from trying). Unfortunately, you cannot take an internet connection to court. Try shouting at your phone socket to see if £500 comes out. I'm willing to bet it won't.

Look at it this way: If it were the case that the person providing the connection could be held liable for infringement (which they did not authorise), every ISP in the country would have been out of business a long time ago.

Relax. They have sent out letters stating "we are preparing court papers as we speak" to people. That was in 2007. Nothing has happened.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

LOL Thank you. I shall make a note on the papers of the six years rule and try to forget it :)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

If you don't feel like sending them invoices for you time, the best thing to do might be to just ignore their next letter and see what happens.

If they don't send you anything further, you win, and if they do you have lost nothing. Rest assured that they will never, ever take you to court as that is absolutely the last thing they want.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Sorry, have to step in here, there IS a risk they will take you to court if they have a sniff of a judgement. It may be a small risk however, but it shouldn't be ignored.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I don't see the point of trying to be clever with DL - they are a lot cleverer than I am. I will answer all letters from them repeating the fact that I didn't do it and don't know who did. I have nothing to hide.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Hmmm..Neither did I but the Inland Revenue still took me for a Grand. 20 years ago a Grand was worth considerably more than it is today. It is almost impossible to prove a negative. At least to the Taxman.

Low life **** the lot of them, DL included.

I would sooner be dead than to prey on my fellow man to make my living.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

No, there isn't.

They only take people to court if they never respond. Not responding to one letter will not make them risk it. Court cases cost money, and if they ever lost one they would be screwed. They only do it in cases where they are 99.9% sure the person will not turn up so they can get a default judgement.

If I thought I could somehow make them take me to court the next time they try to extort money from me, I would do it instantly. I would love nothing more than to see them in a courtroom.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Cook1984 have you actually had letters and ignored them. I would love to hear from someone who has had the case dropped.

As I said I will reply to them but not pay and if I go to court, so be it.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Min, Cook1984 is listed in the poll results at the top of this page as having 'received a letter and called their bluff'. He's one of the people in this thread whose posts are really worth reading and paying attention to, IMO.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Thanks for trying to help everyone. Received another letter today and everything is fine now :)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Explanation please? Just that after getting so much help you've gotta at least tell the rest of the people with letters wht's worked and what's not ;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Yeah, come on - you can't leave us in suspense! What did it say?

If you're prepared to scan the letter (obviously with any personal information masked) and post a picture of it here, I know other users of this forum would find it very, very helpful. :)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Sorry, can't scan the letter.

I repeated at all times that I nor anyone in my household had done the downloading or uploading as that is true.

I remained polite at all times.

I contacted my MP, Watchdog and Which. Which wrote to DL on my behalf.

I answered all letters with any information I could.

I told them I no longer used a wireless connection because of someone else piggybacking and have gone back to cable. I don't need wireless as I am the only person using a computer in our house

The letter I've received today states that due to the evidence I have provided (there wasn't any) they have decided not to proceed. Then I got a lecture from them about securing my connection.

Hope that helps

---------- Post added at 16:09 ---------- Previous post was at 16:06 ----------

Just an after thought - anyone who has the letter asking for router details and an explanation as to how it could have happened should reply with the information and they might get a nice surprise too :)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Excellent, minimum. Really pleased for you. :)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

i have recieved three letters from them, have contact which, trading standars and they have said to ignore them as its obiously a scam. it obviously isnt. i cant find a single case where they have actually taken anyone to court.

---------- Post added at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was at 20:26 ----------

its very fustrating as they are obviously persistant (in my case) as they have sent three letters! they threaten to issue court procedings if i dont pay within 14 days. im obviously not going to pay but it is rather worrying!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Please don't ignore the letters. Write back telling them what they want to know and you might be alright. I have a feeling they will take someone to court but it is more likely to be the ones who ignore them.

It is such a relief to get the final letter.

Does your last letter say reply or pay, mine did.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

all three letters said they want me to pay, i phoned them today to state that i wasnt goimg to pay. how did you manage to stop them sending you the letters?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Luck.

I've not noticed any particular pattern between those who have had their case dropped and those who just keep bouncing back and forth.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

thanks. will let you know if i recieve any more letters. a solicitor told me to look out for the court papers as they have to send these before the court date, but in the next breath he said that you wont recieve any!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

If you didn't do it, just stick it out and reply saying so. That is all I did. Try not to worry too much. The only other people I've heard of them dropping the case for have been high profile so I may be the first of many, after all there has been a lot of attention given to this by the media.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

They have taken at least 1 person to court and won

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7568642.stm

Your right though, she didn't turn up to defend herself, meaning the court had little choice but to find against her, something they surprisingly chose not to advertise when falsely claiming they had won a 'landmark' victory, oh and they also lied about how much they won as well!

Annoyingly these shysters are making a real killing now, they have sent out thousands of letters

Of course, this probably means that Evil Angel is only getting $50 (or maybe even less) per "settlement" leaving somewhere in the range of $700 (depends on the exchange rate) for Davenport Lyons and DigiProtect to split. For doing what? Getting some IP addresses and sending out auto-generated form letters. Nice margins, but sort of proves that these settlements have nothing to do with compensating the content creator.

There was a government petition, unfortunately it wasn't very well advertised and only a couple of hundred people signed it

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/InfComISPDatProt/

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Bit of a misnomer to call that "winning". You can't really win anything when there wasn't a competition in the first place. ;)

As you correctly said - it was a default judgement. Nothing meaningful about it whatsoever.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I'd call a fine in the thousands meaningful.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

It wasn't a fine. You don't get fined as a result of being sued over copyright infringement. The person who ignored all DL's letters, and ignored the court papers, and failed to turn up in court, was therefore not present to argue against DL's claim for thousands in damages and costs. The judge had no alternative but to award what DL was asking for. Damages and costs, not a fine.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

OK, its not a fine, its a default judgement.

Moving on......

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

No, not moving on, thanks. You're missing the point. Davenport Lyons are relying on people misunderstanding the situation to get them to cough up. Calling the outcome of a court hearing a 'fine' when it isn't any such thing only serves to make it all sound that much more scary. Fines are what you get when you're found guilty of an offence in a criminal court. That is not the process that's being discussed here.

Don't do DL's job for them.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I'm not doing their job for them, nor do I wish too. I just worry about some punters coming here, thinking that not responding to a letter from D/L will mean the problem will go away.....it clearly didn't for that poor woman.

There's plenty of sound advice in this thread......one of which I got awarded post of the month for some time back.

I just want to bring a small amount of balance here, in the hope that those who are innocent of such claims, get the outcome they deserve, nothing more.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Wish I knew that before I sent my letter. I wrote that I did get an advice from lawyer and he told me that I have no obligation to give them any details they asked for.

Still waiting what they're gonna do now..

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Yes, but we were talking about court appearances, not fixed penalties. ;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

They took my friend to court and he got a massive fine. Lawdit were representing in court and lost because DL managed to convince the Judge he acted unreasonably. Lawdit's advice at the end of the case was to change address quickly so they can't catch him or declare bankruptcy!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Ah, your "mystery" friend that you can't provide any links or evidence about.....

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Care to tell us what court that was in so we can check it out?














Didn't think so....

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Would you look at that - the story has changed again!
:D

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Remind us, who is it you work for? :dozey:

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

No. They didn't. And 'he' didn't.