Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

I've always said split it into 3 (or 4 as you say, or 5 if you & Turkey want to include Kurdistan). Sunnis and Shiites have been warring for 1,300 years so I think it will be a long while before they can live together peacefully, if ever. The Kurds, I don't know much about, by my intrepretation of them is they just sit by and watch the other two destroy each other.

If my knowlege of Iraq is correct, A big circle was drawn around all these completely incompatible tribes (by Britain/League Of Nations?) and said "We'll call it Iraq". The first step to sorting it is reversing that. If you have two kids who really won't play nicely together, what is the point of endlessly pushing them?

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LOL! Did Gavin edit that (it says 'last edited by Gavin' on SLM's post)? I am guessing SLM meant shiites (with double i)...

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Yep I meant Shiites, altho some of those present at the execution could have been appropriately described as Shiites with only the one I.

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

So I stand corrected I am wrong, any time now all these different muslim factions are going to pat one another on the back and get on with sorting out the little problems of sanitation, food, water, poor treatment of women and crime in their countries instead of wanting to kill one another.

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

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Wonder what his punishment will be? :erm:

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Oy! Leave the Baltics out of it! :D

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He may have a point... I've seen what you are like running around with guns in COD2 for the clan :scratch: ;)

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Again, I for one am glad he`s dead and gone to Hell.
The world and the people have their revenge on a mass murderer who killed approximately 300,000 people.
I , personally, think that he got sent off very lightly, Mod edit (Gavin): hateful comments removed
Nobody in this country of ours today,has the right to protect ourselves or our families without the threat of prosecution and that really hurts me badly. This once great country of ours has become Mod edit (Gavin): hateful comments removed
What the **** is that all about then?**** the subjects who work hard and pay their taxes.!:(
Sorry, gone off topic.......
Anyway, back to you guys debating if Saddam`s death was undignified or unjust.:confused:

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It might be off topic but as far as i am concerned it true. :tu:

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Well, lets look at Saudi.
Rather good sanitation, plenty of food, lots of water thanks to Israeli desalination technology (incidently, most of the decalination technology in the middle east is Israeli), women are educated and many go to university, don't have to cover their faces, moving towards giving them the vote as soon as they sort out the logistical problems, crime is relatively low, as a 5 year old, I felt totally safe wandering around the shopping complexes on my own.
Not particularly interested in attacking any other countries either.

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Yes, but what have the Romans ever done for us? ;-)

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The aqueduct?

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:LOL:

all explained HERE

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We are all individuals!!!!

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I'm not

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OK, apart from the aqueduct, good sanitation, plenty of food, lots of water thanks to Israeli desalination technology, women being educated and not having to cover their faces, giving them the vote and relatively low crime ...what have the Romans ever done for us?

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splitter!!!

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:confused: :( Oh God! Please let this turn into a post about" The Life Of Brian" !:D :tu:
Far more entertaining than debating the well deserved death of a ****ing Murderer!

---------- Post added at 21:30 ---------- Previous post was at 21:29 ----------



[Admin Edit(Mick):- Part of Post questioning a team decision removed. Under no circumstances, should any member question a team member's actions publicly. All issues regarding a post being edited by a team member, should be directed to the team member in question, via private message ONLY].

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Increased oil production to bring prices down?

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See PM.

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Sorry, I apologise to you all, I got a bit carried away last night:confused:
Obviously, i`m not allowed to say my views on things that i feel are wrong, either in the world or in my own country.
I`m sorry if anyone was offended, Gavin i apologise to you also for questioning your decision, rightly or wrongly.
budwieser.:( :angel:

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Not true, actually - in Syria, to take an example at random, there's a largely Sunni country governed by Shias. There's more than one sort of Shia, too, as well as more than one sort of Sunni. In Iraq, the Mahdi Army (the ones who got the Saddam-lynching contract) are actually quite sympathetic to the non-Baathist, non-al-Qaeda Sunnis, who share a common hatred of the American occupation. A bit of nuance and understanding helps here, I find - not all Sunnis are extremists and not all Shia are Khomeneist fundies, either.

Slightly wrong. You have the right to defend yourself and your property using reasonable force, which is defined very broadly (for instance, it's not the actual threat that matters legally, but your instantaneous perception of the threat, even if that turns out to be wrong). Don't believe the tabloid rubbish, get the facts. What you aren't allowed to do, and correct me if this is what you're advocating, is premeditated assault or murder. A threat of prosecution in those cases would be in order, I suggest.

No, no no. You have a perfect right to talk uninformed rot, and swear on a forum where the community agrees that this isn't acceptable language, but don't complain if you get pulled up for it. Or don't you believe in accepting the consequences of your actions?

Saddam? Shows how much the Americans and British have lost the Iraq War, to me. I've seen the future and it puts the mental into fundamentalist. Anyone talking about 'stabilising the democratically elected government' and 'backing the Iraqi forces in their struggle against the insurgency' during the next 12 months should have 'liar' shouted at them.

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/20...59318228411422

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Not that I agree with the Death penality as I certainly do not! Nor do I agree with the actions of filming Saddam.

But I am puzzled why people care about Saddams dignity? He was sentenced to death by hanging, in front of people, what else did people expect? Also why lose sleep over it? Its not as if he had any dignity to lose

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If the people who are supposed to be the good guys act like the bad guys, how can anyone tell the difference?

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I am glad it was filmed, gave me a chance to see what the 'New Iraq' is like, not much different to the old Iraq by the look of it and btw I don't think people are as much bothered by the dignity of Saddams death, its the fact he came out of it looking better (:erm: if thats possible) than his executioners.

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Who said there are any good guys?

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Did he?
How?

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Well thats the Death penality for you. It was the Iraqi court who sentenced him however, and its their justice. We have to leave them to their devices really.

Also, The big difference between old iraq and this one. Between Saddam and the executioners is that Saddam actually commited a real crime and it was him who commited it.

No killing people for the crime for disagreeing or not being liked by Saddam.

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The fact that you have to ask that question is worrying.........

Aren't the good guys the ones who believe in democracy, freedom of speech, truth and the American/European/British way, equality of opportunity, helping others without regard to themselves, etc, etc.

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The Mahdi Army of Moqtada al-Sadr are the good guys? They do ecologically friendly ethnic cleansing using lead-free bullets or something?

Anyone see the rumour that Sadr himself has got the noose? Since Saddam had his dad murdered, this seems only fair. Dubya, on the other hand, has Saddam's pistol, but his dad was famously not murdered by Saddam. Funny how those two religious madmen share so much, really.

Funny how the head of the avowedly secular Ba'ath Party came over all religious at the end, eh? Wonder who that was aimed at?

What isn't funny is all the Kurds who will not see Saddam in court for his crimes against them. The message was that the Shia are in charge, the Shia get the justice, the Shia carry out the sentence and everyone else can, well, go hang. Personally I'd have let him rot in prison, drag him out once a year, try and convict him of another crime, give him another hundred years or so and shove him back in the cooler. No martyrdom, no idiotic dancing executioners, no fuss, perhaps even a chance of justice.

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"Slightly wrong. You have the right to defend yourself and your property using reasonable force, which is defined very broadly (for instance, it's not the actual threat that matters legally, but your instantaneous perception of the threat, even if that turns out to be wrong). Don't believe the tabloid rubbish, get the facts. What you aren't allowed to do, and correct me if this is what you're advocating, is premeditated assault or murder. A threat of prosecution in those cases would be in order, I suggest."

Totally wrong mate! What i` am saying is what i would do basically if you or anyone else came into my house to rob it or cause harm to me or my family, or, caused harm or grief to a member of my family. No premeditation mentioned there is there? You take your chance and you suffer the consequences. Isn`t it the same thing that Law in this country is based upon?
As for the swearing, i have apologised for that so don`t try and get me on one , ok?
I also have a right to talk" uninformed Rot" the same as you have mate.:erm: :D

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I think we are better than Saddam at least :erm: I think we sometimes try to hard to find moral ambiguity in the actions of people like Saddam (Bush = No 1 terrorist for example)

Weither you agree with the Hanging of Saddam or not (I dont). I do not think it blurs any line of good or bad between us and saddam.

---------- Post added at 20:35 ---------- Previous post was at 20:34 ----------

You are off-topic. But you can defend yourself, whats the problem?

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I believe once we leave the new to their own devices, they will turn out to be no better than the old.

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Damien, don't get me wrong - I think Saddam was an evil tyrant, but if the people we replace him with act in the way they have, how does that reflect on the UK and the US.

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I am not sure but it would not reflect well if we blocked the Iraqi Justice system when we are trying to let them self-govern and increase the crediblity of the Iraqi government.

It was important that this trail especially suffered as little interference from outside Iraqi, I do not agree with the death penality but I dont think we should have stopped them.

Also with Saddam, its hardly a great loss

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Was he the one praying, or one of the hecklers, was he the one hooded, the whole execution looked more like a lynching than a state execution, even down to the fact the gallows were to small, how can Iraqi's respect their new laws when the first time they witness it they see that sham, it would of been better for the government if they had just released him to the mob, so they could extract the revenge and if the government are happy with the way it went why are they holding investigations and enquiry's

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Were they the ones giving him a relatively quick death, or were they the ones beating him to death, or shooting him in the back of the head infront of his family before dropping him in a mass grave, or were they the ones ordering gassing of hundreds, or were they the ones dropping people into wood chippers?

I'm having a hard time understanding how Saddam can come across better than people who simply taunted him before hanging him.

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Not even half as badly as it reflects on the Iraqis, surely.

The execution was very much an Iraqi affair. The crux of it, the death warrant, was signed by a democratically-elected Iraqi al-Malaki.

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Er, we did interfere. Rather a lot. Saddam, up until just before he swung, was in US military custody at a US base, not Iraqi custody (for good reasons, if Shias had been holding him, he'd be on the end of a rope in minutes, ditto for Kurds, if Sunnis, he'd have been sprung sooner or later). The court was set up outside the Iraqi court system (it's a 'special tribunal'). Prosecution lawyers and witnesses were given protection by US-led forces, the defence wasn't, resulting in three murders and finally US advisors were installed to advise the judges, who of course got replaced a few times by direct political appointment from the Iraqi government that depends on us for its survival and included at least one who was directly connected to Saddam's victims, which would disqualify him in a proper legal system. It wouldn't have been any more of a kangaroo court if Skippy had been doing the shorthand.

Fair trial? Nope. Iraqi court? Nope. Justice? Nope. Anyone would think that we had something in our past connections to Hussein we wanted to keep out of the public eye.

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He didn't come across better than them - unfortunately, they didn't come across much better than him, by not allowing him to finish his prayer, and executing him on the first day of Eid.

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His embracing of religion was simply to get anti-western support from neighbouring countries.
No muslim would have a koran written in human blood for starters.
I don't recal anything in the koran saying punishments can't be given out on certain days either.

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I suspect that secretly the entire Middle East are quite happy that Saddam is dead.However they will use the manner of his death in any way they can to smack the collective western democracies , irrespective of whether it was an entirely Iraqi affair or not.:(

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Whether he embraced religion in fear of dying or to ge anti western support is your opinion as you have no evidence of what his motives were for doing so. Only he will know himself. You are right in what you say about the lack of dignity saddam offered his captives and the inhuman manner in which they were killed. He was also pretty unislamic in the manner in which he ruled his country.

However he was killed in the month of Hajj which is one of the holiest months in the Islamic calender. Forget about him being killed before the day of Eid ul Adha, the 9 days leading up to this day are extremely religious and virtuous. There are certain things we as muslims are forbidden from doing in these days and traditionally in many islamic countries its a month when prisoners are pardoned and forgiven (not saying that this should have happened to sadam). Additionally for one muslim to prevent another from taking his shadah (Oath to Allah) at time of his death is one of the worst things that can be done.

Like Ive said before Im not looking for excuses for Saddam, and I totally agree that if hanging is the punishemnet imposed for his crimes then thats fair enough. From a muslim perspective and from talking to many muslims personally (who are all anti saddam) although Saddam deserved to die, it his his captives that lost dignity and credibility in this whole execution process. I think its hard for non muslims to easily see why many muslims feel this way. I would say, judging by the reaction from the other Islamic states in the middle east, most would share these sentiments.

As for what BBKIing posted earlier about american - allied influence he is spot on. Anyone that says that this was Iraqi justice without external influence is, in my opinion, pretty niave. I also agree that executing him for the death of 148 shiites has the added bonus that it prevents disclosure of embarrasing information in further trials in regards with everything else he was accused of doing.

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Are all prisoners pardoned during that month?
Its tradition, but is it religious law?
What does the koran tell you about blood?
How can someone have a koran written in human blood and be a muslim?

Which of his charges would have resulted in the shortest trial?
Killing 148 shiites, or the gassing of hundreds of kurds, or the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of shiites?
If he had been tried and found guilty of the other crimes, would his sentance be any different?
Was there any benefit to Iraq in allowing him to continue ranting in the dock for the length of the other trials?
How much money would have been wasted?
How many lives would it have cost with assasinations?
Have you actually asked yourself those questions or is it simpler just to blame Bush?

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

whoa hang on a minute.... Have i blamed bush? Have i said saddam did not deserve to die? The issue that was being discussd is dignity and perception of those that executed Saddam (i.e the govt) at the time of the execution and for its timing. From what I can see, and from muslims I speak to (who all agree that saddam was an evil man who deserved to die) that this could have been handled a lot better. Everyone Ive spoken to as said that the manner in which he wass killed is pretty unIslamic and with very little dignity. Remember this is not about saying well Saddam was worse, he didnt deserve it, its about a new govt showing to the world that they are better than Saddam.

Your questions about the Koran are all valid. The point I'm making is that in Islam, and not just Islam, you are not excluded from turning (back) to your religion jsut because youve been a bad - evil - terrible muslim up until then. The final punsihemnt or pardon in the hereafter is in the hand of God. Yes I am of the opinion that a lot of saddams crimes were overlooked by the allies and the US govt because its better the devil you know then the one you dont, but Im not disputing that saddam did not deserve to die.

As for this being done by an Iraqi govt/iraqi justice, you come across as an intelligent man Xaccers. Do you belive that the americans - allies in no way influenced the trial and the outcome and timing of the execution?

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To be brutally honest, I don't care whether they did or didn't.
There is no doubt in my mind that Saddam committed dispicable acts which resulted in him being hanged.
I can see no benefit in having kept him alive longer to answer further charges which had the high likelyhood of being found guilty of and resulting in another death sentence.
You can only die once, so what would be the point in sentencing him multiple times?
The only people to benefit from a trial which would bring in representatives of America and Britain, are those poeple who get some sick pleasure from pointing a finger and going nyah nyah, while the international image of the UK and USA was damaged further.
Reagan is dead, so what would be the point in bringing in and cross examining members of the current administration other than to score cheap political points?

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Xaccers, notwithstanding the question of Saddam facing further trials, do you think that performing the execution on the day it happened was reasonable, considering 97% of the Iraqi population are Muslim? Also, in your opinion, was there anything morally wrong with executing him before he had finished his prayers?

I appreciate that Saddam was responsible for the deaths of many people during religious periods, and that these victims undoubtedly didn't have the occaision to say prayers before meeting their makers, but I'm interested in knowing your thoughts on the execution not on the murders Saddam was convicted for.

ps - anyone else seen the cover of this week's Private Eye?

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As I said, its a tradition in some muslim countries to not do it during this period, is that a tradition in Iraq? I doubt it.
To be honest, I don't remember a period in my 5 years in Saudi when chop square was shut down.
As for being hung before he finished his prayers, perhaps you're asking the wrong person ;)
If there is a deity such as Allah, are words really needed for that deity to understand?
Remember, those who performed the execution did so knowing better than any of us over here what Saddam did to the Iraqi people, and if they don't think he deserved any longer, so be it.

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

There are many from his administration who are very much alive and who were involved directly in the supply of the weapons which were used against the Kurds (who are entitled to justice) contrary to trade embargo restrictions unilaterally in place at the time of the Iraq Iran war. Are we suggesting that they should not be called because Regan's dead? I don't think "cheap political points" holds much muster when compared to "truth", one of the tenets of true justice.

I would assume that Saddam's proposed defence, not necessarily calling on anyone from the current Bush administration bar Rumsfeld, now conveniently not part of that administration, would have intended proving the hypocracy of several of the coalition partners in their attempts at Pontious Pilate type moral grandstanding.

What Saddam was hung for was probably the least of the atrocities he was responsible for and the most convenient for the purposes of a quick sentencing and execution. He should have faced trial for the gassings, torture and mass murders to afford the victims of his brutality the peace of mind of his being convicted and true justice having been served whereas now his sentence has been cheapened and undermined by the flawed rush, for whatever reason, to hang him and afford a small minority of his victims "closure".

As BBKing has said, it's all rather convenient, not to mention predictable.

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

This one?:confused:

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

No, that's from the previous issue... this one has Dubya writing a letter. Looks like it's not on their site yet.

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

It's up.....try that link again :D

btw......Libya is building a statue of Saddam.....link

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Perhaps the Iraqi government disagree with you, Xaccers?
Linky1
"The Iraqi constitution prohibits executions during religious holidays."
Section 290 of Iraq's Law on Criminal Proceedings (1971). The section provides:

The death penalty cannot be carried out on official holidays and special festivals connected with the religion of the condemned person.

The Iraqi government disagree with you, Xaccers ;) (from the same article as below)
"Iraqi national security adviser Mowaffaq al-Rubaie has told the BBC that lessons have been learned and future executions will be handled differently. "We will take care of all the loopholes of what happened during Saddam's execution and we will leave no stone unturned to pursue those who have spoiled the victory of the Iraqi people in executing Saddam Hussein," he said."

Oh, and Dubya disagrees with you too......
Linky
"US President George W Bush has said he wished the execution of ex-Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein had been more dignified "

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

I think the Egyptians aren't too happy either.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/6233951.stm

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Lybia plans to erect a statue for Saddam...

http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/...051238,00.html

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

But do we care about "these peopletm" or "these countriestm" ? :rolleyes:


tmescapee post #380

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Good job he wasn't executed on a religious holiday then wasn't it? :)

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

:rofl: Eygpt know all about barbarism due to their absolutely appalling human rights record. Mubarak should know a thing or two about dictatorships too. Pity he doesn't know the phrase about the pot calling the kettle black.

I don't think anyone has said why the execution happened when it did, so I will. It happened during a very holy time for Muslims, when the insurgency and general mayhem would be at its relative quietest. It was taken as a national security action, rather than a judicial one. It made a lot of sense in regard to saving lives and quelling unrest, but people were going to complain regardless what happened.

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Well in all fairness the 9 days preceding the day of Eid Ul Adha are extremely important to Muslims worldwide, and the manner in which we are supposed to conduct ourselves over these days are even more so important than the rest of the year. There are quite a few people making the mistake that its ok because he was killed before dawn on the day of Eid Ul Adha, but infact its just as bad that he was killed in the day preceding it.

I think you need to be a muslim (or to have a deeper understanding of Islam) to truly understand and maybe appreciate the insensitivity of the timing and manner in which he was killed.

---------- Post added at 14:21 ---------- Previous post was at 14:19 ----------

Could we see the link or are you on the Iraqi Security Advisory Panel?

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

when I was in Egypt last year sometimes people wanted to talk politics - secretly reading English newspapers for a different perspective on the world.

I think it's scary how despite increased tourism - in Egypt women are still 2nd class citizens; be they locals or tourists. Actually now I think about it, I think I saw maybe a handful of women the whole week and I don't even think they were Egyptian? Most people we met were male. Also scary how some hotels see fit to have armed gunmen /police on the doorstep. They searched people randomly coming and going of our hotel; I dread to think what happens after you get taken aside for any reason... reminds me, I must dig out an Arabic phrasebook!

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Lets invade them as well to get rid of Mubarak. On second thought, let's not, there's no oil under those pyramids is there?

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Sorry to bring facts into this thread, but -
BBClink1
"Saddam Hussein, a Sunni Muslim, was sentenced to death"

USAtodayLink1
"The executions were carried out at the beginning of Eid-Al-Adha, an Islamic religious holiday marking the climax of the annual Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca. Eid begins today for Sunnis and tomorrow for Shias."

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

No need to be sarcastic... It was in the media when it was ordered that he would be executed during, when the execution was rushed through, all the experts were giving their verdicts.

If that's not good enough for you, I am still entitled to an opinion on why something happened, even if I am a mod, you know.

---------- Post added at 14:47 ---------- Previous post was at 14:44 ----------

Egypt's regime is one about 12 that needs to be toppled, if the UN ever actually cared about enforcing human rights.

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

China might be a bit of a handful, though.;)

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Isn't regime change against international law?

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

My response has nothing to do with you being a mod so I do not know why that has been bought into the discussion.

I asked you where you got your facts from as it was unclear from your post whether you are refering to your personal opinion or to an actual news item. I do not recall hearing that being said in any of the stories I saw on the news, having said that I am not saying you are lying or that it didnt happen. The manner in which you posted indicated that this was fact, not opinion, and thus it would be reasonable for me to question this, without you posting any evidence.

---------- Post added at 14:57 ---------- Previous post was at 14:53 ----------

I thought it was, but I think the presence of oil or other natural resources trumps International Law.

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

So is abusing human rights...

Fair enough :tu: My apologies...

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

[quote=Gavin;34191925]So is abusing human rights...

...snip...quote]

Let's not get on to Guantanamo Bay, please.... :D

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Excellent idea - let's get the US Army to do it. Oh, hang on, they're a bit busy. Oh, and Egypt is an ally of the US (their torture chambers are very useful, these days) and indeed of Israel. Slight lack of real world thinking there, I think, Gavin.

I note Libya are all upset at Saddam biting the big one. That's Libya under the good Colonel Ghaddafi, who's our mate, who sells us oil and gave up his WMD, and is a dictator who used to support terrorism.

If we're going to overthrow all these dictators, we're going to have to depose the leadership of the US first, I think, since they seem to be allied with most of them (throw in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan if you want).

What I think is totally unfair is blaming the UN here. It can't do anything its members won't do, after all, and it's key members (i.e., us, the US, France, Russia and China) don't want to overthrow their friends, pet torturers and business partners. Sadly, blaming the UN is a kneejerk reaction in those quarters that get their news from the American loony right.

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Anyway, I didn't think regime change was illegal, its just the UN never wanted to sponser it.

We have an ICC, we have international criminals, it should be difficult for the two to meet.

It would be lovely if the UN would issue arrest warrants for (certainly the heads of) the regimes that chronically and severely abuse human rights (there are at least 12, including as FW pointed out, China), and try them for their crimes against humanity. Never see it happening.

Dictactors are sick people who assume power and abuse human rights to feed their psychosis. They also do it because they know noone will stop them. How many dictators in the 20th or 21st century have faced any kind of justice? Hitler was diposed but never faced justice. Pol Pot? Idi Amin? Kim Jong Ill? And the regimes like China? Saudi Arabia?

We live in this horrible, hypocritical age of human rights and justice, where countries like Syria whose human rights record is so bad we can deport people to, are allowed on the UN security council to be in a position to enforce how other countries are supposed to act.

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Not while the international court isn't globally recognised you wont at any rate

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Unfortunately, International Politics = Countries self-interest

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

I am not going to argue this with you when you just rely on your old standbys of deriding and insulting other members, extreme anti-American rhetoric and liberal use of sarcasm and straw men in lieu of any real useful discussion.

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

I hear you...International politics and co-operation are a joke at times.:rolleyes:

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Two interesting letters in todays Telegraph

The first seems to imply that we in the West are (once again) being condescending and imperialistic by tutting over how Arabs executed one of their own in their own country. The second offers a reason for the unseemly haste......

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

We can't have a go at Libya, now they are on the OK list for defence technology again.

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

But then shouldn't it also imply we were being "condescending and imperialistic" by invading it if the first place? :confused:

And isn't Michael Lewis, the letter's author, being "condescending and imperialistic" by stating that he understands the how the Iraqi and Middle Eastern cultures think, by stating himself "it is unreasonable to expect that the Shia would not dance for joy at the death of Saddam."

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Civilians killed by accident?
I take it that the government know the area before an attack is launched?
They would know it is populated by a high percentage of innocent civilians, just as, as bill pointed out about warrington, the ira knew the area.
" Indiscriminate bombing " you call this an emotive phrase, when I look up the meaning of the word " Indiscriminate " here is what I get:


" not showing careful thought or planning, especially so that harm results "

To twist my opinion to be some " anti troop " comment is out of order.
My whole point is against this government, they cannot say they do not condone execution on humanitarian grounds, yet allow bombings of areas highly populated by innocent civilains, what are they trying to say? are they saying that it is not right in a humanitarian " improving people's lives and reducing suffering " way to not agree to execution? but it is ok to do the other? and this is why I am saying it is hypocritic.
I dont need a lecture from you or anyone about conflict, I am so sorry that my opinions do not " tally " with the stereotypical profile held in peoples heads.
Tell me how you differentiate between what the IRA were doing, the suffering they were causing, and what this government is now doing, tell me how we can take the moral higher ground?
Having served in the forces the troops have my utmost respect, sadly that does not carry forward to our leaders.
I would love to be proved wrong if the place is at peace next year, I mean, sadam has now been removed from power, which was the mandate for our troops going over there, so they should all be home soon thankfully.

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Its a culture difference, no matter what party replaces Saddam the culture in these middle east countries will never be the same as western europe.

We may never agree the rights and wrongs of their actions, but we can be sure their culture will never change just to please the west. It seesm easy to judge using our own standards, but their culture, standards, morale standards, human rights treatment and fanatical religious following will never change.

To expect them to change is as unlikely as it would be to expectr us to change to their standards.

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Possibly. (leaving aside the need to remove a dictator)

I don't think so. I think he is demonstrating some understanding of their mindset.

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

arcamalpha, I wasn't trying to twist your comment into an anti-troop statement - if it came out that way, it wasn't meant to. No one is trying to lecture you, they just have a different opinion to you (the joy of a democratic society).

The statements are only "hypocritical" if you believe that "acts of war" are in the same category as "state execution", and the UN disagrees with you.

Once again, you appear to be comparing the IRA actions (who set out deliberately to bomb civilians) with those of our troops (who when returning fire or attacking enemy strongpoints, accidently cause civilian casualties and deaths). And you also equate "state execution" with "acts of war", which if you were in the forces, is a very strange equation to make. I think you will find there is a huge difference in deliberately targeting civilians and "collateral damage" in a war crimes tribunal (though not unfortunately to those killed or injured).

Do you actually believe our troops would take part in "indiscriminate bombing"? I find this deeply offensive, having been in the RAF (Comms/SigInt), having being posted to Germany, Cyprus, NI, Masirah, HK, etc, and worked alongside 2 Para, 2nd Royal Anglians, IntCorp, Royal Signals, and others.

I was asking (imho) a valid question - if insurgents are firing from a building, and there are civilians are in that, or nearby, buildings, are you saying it is indiscriminate to attack that building? If so, what would you suggest - as you say, you have served in the forces, so surely you have some opinion on tactics? (what were your last three, btw?).

---------- Post added at 10:19 ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 ----------

As has been stated many times in this thread - best get our uniforms on, then, there are still a lot of dictators waiting to be removed; I wonder why this one was chosen?

Or perhaps just his opinion, which he is entitled to, but does not necessarily make him an expert.

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

If you dont find it indiscriminate for our government to order the bombing of targets that could result in civilian casualties then that is your right, as you say about a democratic society ;)
So, if it is not indiscriminate, what is it?
What other word can you find to describe it?
My whole point, is that the government cannot have it both ways, they cannot claim that they are against execution on humanitarian grounds, then they order mass bombings of areas populated by civilians.
I prefer to leave the tactics to the experts, they are paid a lot more than I ever was, but the tactics are obviously not working are they?
As I have said, it is not a go at the troops over there.
Again you seem obsessed in wanting to know my last three?
I have always been of the opinion that the ones who " gob off " about their history are the ones best treated with a pinch of salt.
I have given my opinion, I dont lose sleep over whether its agreed with, as you say its a democratic society ;)
ATB.

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

I think the biggest problem is reaching an uderstanding if the areas are indeed populated by "innocent" civilians, or civilians who support the bad guys and are in effect offering themsleves as human shields.

How often have military buildings been bombed and we hear them claim it was a hospital, and how many times have they placed a target next to a hospital for their own reasons. These terrorists use all methods they can against our troops. For them killing troops is far more important than some innocent lives, I'm afraid they set the rules and we play by them how many innocent lives in their own countries have these terrorists killed!

There will always we bad decisions, and decisions that cost innocent lives to get the baddies. As I said before, I guess it will all result in one set of baddies being replaced by another set.

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Supposed consideration for the lives of innocent civilians in the current war in Iraq where bombs, missiles and artillery are concerned, is a nonsensical argument and one which is clearly debunked by conflict history.

Furthermore it is a notion which is theatre / demographic dependant.

For example, there have been several mentions of the IRA in this thread - up until the current "war on terror" the biggest solitary threat to british security and, some may say, strategic global interests.

Never, in it's entire history, did the British army carpet bomb or use missiles or tanks againt the IRA in West Belfast or South Armagh (two of their strongholds from which the bulk of their operations were either planned or carried out). No one sanctioned the bombing of Leeds or Bradford in the wake of the 7/7 bombings.

These two instances alone show that the lives of innocent civilians in Iraq are far less valued than the lives of innocent civilians in Britain. That is not to say that British soldiers wantonly target civilians with their munitions. However, you don't need to be Einsten to determine the potential for collateral damage and, as such, rationales such as some proffered here are deeply flawed. The aforementioned munitions are designed to inflict maximum damage, be that collateral or structural.

The face and practicalities of war have changed dramatically in the last 20 years to one of "distance conflict" whereby the ordinary soldier / pilot is as far removed from the conflict in which he / she is engaged as is practically possible whilst his / her usefulness / specialism is still of value to the core conflict.

The days of minimum civilian casualties resulting from military / paramilitary conflict are long over - that is a given.

It's also why democracy through war is a lot more palatable when it's being exercised several thousand miles away and not on our own doorsteps (the internet and 24hr tv broadcasts notwithstanding).

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Correct me if I am wrong but is it British soldiers that are doing the bombing and shelling of civilian area's, I have always understood that we have very different 'rules of engagement' to those of our allies

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Understood and I quite agree, however I seem to remember reading a report that said coalition forces were responsible for over 30% of civilian deaths out there, a pretty shocking figure considering how many people are being murdered each day by terrorists

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Did anyone see this one?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/6232859.stm

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Of course that's a valid point, unless of course the reason why West Belfast, South Armagh, or Leeds weren't carpet bombed was because there were alternative tactics available, such as police raids on houses, now there's a thought.
Similarly, raids on houses have taken place in Iraq, correct?
It's not all carpet bombings is it?
In fact, carpet bombings in comparison with house raids with troops is a rare thing wouldn't you say?
There are thousands of times more house raids by soldiers than there are carpet bombings right?

Not forgetting that the IRA did take steps to have areas cleared of civilians in many bombings by alerting the authorities.
That's one major difference between the insurgents and the IRA.

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

If my memory serves me correct, I thought the IRA generally made a phone call before the bomb went off in a building?

I think the big difference was the IRA were nasty terrosrists without a doubt, but they did all they could not to kill one of their own side. These terrorists in Iraq are not so worried, because life is seen as cheaper than in the west.

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

As you say - don't lose sleep.

ps I didn't gob off about my history, I just stated it to show I had some - You don't even appear to know what your "last three" are ;) .

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Yes, you're entirely right. There were alternative tactics available then in Northern Ireland as there are now in Iraq. That these strategic house raids are regularly carried out in Iraq is not in dispute, nor is the fact that house to house searches cause less collateral damage than carpet bombing.

Factually the house raids in Iraq far outweigh the number of carpet bombing incidents. However, the significantly lower number of carpet bombing incidents have claimed many more innocent civilian lives than house raids.

The fact is that carpet bombing, heavy artilliery, missile and mortar fire has taken place in Iraq in densley populated areas and killed civilians (even when the option of house to house was available). As I stated earlier this is a part of the changing face of "distance conflict", due in no small part to the fact that the French realized very early in their military campaigns that dead soldiers do not win wars.

My argument is that anyone who thinks that the use of such munitions can in some way be controlled to minimize civilian casualties in these circumstances is barking up the wrong tree. I have witnessed the after effects of this type of ordnance and worse (see flechettes) in Beirut and other theatres and, even when deployed by the most professional of soldiers, there is no way to legislate for potential civilian casualties if the environment is a predominantly civilian populated area.

I'm not saying the current tactics in Iraq are right or wrong (either way they don't seem to be working) but simply that if the ends justifying the means involves the use of indiscriminate (beyond targetting) fragmentational ordnance in civilian areas then it is entirely 100% likely that innocent civilians will be killed. No amount of "careful targetting" will prevent the fact - so quite why anyone would seek to say they are trying to minimize civilian deaths and casualties whilst using ordnance designed specifically to fragment is beyond me.

Civilians will die - even with the best will in the world that is unavoidable. Once a war starts no amount of hand wringing, conscience cleansing or well intentioned soundbites regarding "careful deployment" will change that fact.

Military commanders attempt to expunge their consciences and the consciences of their suborbdinates by using the argument that they are trying to prevent civilian losses. The best way to prevent such a magnitude of civilian losses is not to use certain ordnance - but this takes us into the realm of "house to house, street by street" and the potential for military losses on a far greater scale. It comes down to economics of personnel. If you can kill the baddies with minimum losses to yourself then you do it - fact (and indeed objective) of war.

Based on what the military know to be factual regarding the design and deployment capabilities of certain ordnance there is no logical reason for them to excuse or to seek to excuse the deaths of civilians once that ordnance has been utilized in a conflict situation. That is a fact of life.

On Northern Ireland.

Had the British army / establishment sought to carpet bomb selective parts of Belfast or South Armagh citing their losses and the embedded terrorists and their support infrastructure in those areas they would have been quite justified (based on current military losses in Iraq vis a vis the figures for military losses in any three year period in Northern Ireland) in doing so.

There would have been no reasonable argument against the the use of carpet bombing / artilliery use / mortars or missiles to affect the suppression of insurgents / terrorists in Northern Ireland (or Bradford for that matter) beyond the fact that it was morally and democratically unjustifiable in the eyes of an otherwise civilized society. That, and a preference for counter insurgency, infiltration and effective intelligence gathering (not really available options in Iraq), is why it was never used as an option. The result? A thirty year war.

This brings me back to my point of exercising democracy on our own doorsteps. The notion of carpet bombing, the use of heavy artilliery, rockets, tanks and mortars in civilian populated areas is entirely acceptable to the civilian population of Britain and America in certain conflict situations - as long as it isn't happening on their own street or area.

Fragmentational ordnance may be dirty, morally objectionable and a very real threat to civilians but that is how they were designed and they work. That is the reality of war.

I realize this is all off topic (apparently some bloke got hung) and apologize for the length of the above. If anyone would like to discuss these things in detail perhaps we should start a new thread or move to pm or email to exchange views?

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

All of what you are insinuating is probably true but the fact remains that he did need deposing....



No one said he is an expert, least of all him. He is merely possibly showing an understanding of the Arab mind...

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Does your fingers hurt after a post like that. :)

Re: Update: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Who said YOU did gob off about your history? I said SOME.
What is so important about a number? it proves nothing as you would know ;)
Lets just say I signed up in 1978, think you can work it out from that!

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Ten years ago today since his lynching...

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

Bloody hell.....that's gone by quickly

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Hasn't it, tbh one of the reasons I posted it was it just doesn't seem that long ago

Re: Saddam Hussein Executed
 

I find the older i get the faster times passes bit depressing as you have less time left you need it to go slower not faster lol.