Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Sorry to return to the capping issue but this really does bug me.

I find it quite amusing how the internet connectivity business has evolved and history continues to repeat itself.

First we had standard PAYG dialup for home users. Initially this usually comprised dialing a POP on a local'ish number and larger ISP's had POP's throughout the country. Heavy users racked up serious bills (I had a number of 600 pound quarterly BT bills back in the early 90's). This continued for a number of years and slowly we moved to ISP's offering single dialup numbers to a national audience and all users could access these numbers at local call rates. Eventually along came all you can eat dialup which was a god send to heavy users. But heaven forbid some users decided to eat all they could and the telco's screamed 'ouch our profits' and started issuing cease and desist orders (not that BT ever showed a loss and made how many million per second?). This coincided with the advent of broadband and the predominant telco's simply stated heavy users need broadband which is an always on all you can eat solution. So heavy users go to broadband and now we find ourselves back at 'ouch our profits' lets return to limited/PAYG solutions.

Whilst NTL have to be commended for upping the bandwidth they are going to offer their customers I cannot commend them for introducing hard cap's into the equation. This is a real step backwards for net users and will, as more traditional services such as TV and PSTN telephones become IP bound, become an expensive option for users.

What I'd really like to see from NTL is some detail on how they are going to handle overages? What costs are users going to incur per GB over the cap. Or on hitting the cap will users simply loose connectivity or get some form of reduced/slower service? At present NTL have not explained the detail of their plans and seem to be hoping that the glory of offering the fastest home user net connects will mask the restricted nature of the new services.

On a side note is business broadband from NTL bound by the current usage guidelines and will business services become capped next year?

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I'm convinced that the 'cap' for each tier will be based on the price point, not the tier of service.

i.e.

£17.99 will be a 5GB per month deal, whether you have 300Kb or 1000Kb.

£24.99 will be a 30GB per month deal, whether you have 750Kb or 2000Kb

- etc

- this could also enable a 'turbo' capability, whereby downloads of significant updates can be done at top speed for the tier, other stuff like email at the lower...

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Same here.. :)

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Umm no I'm not kidding in the slightest, I'm stating the facts. As I said I was talking about averages. You are above average in your use - you are maxing your line out for 4 hours a day, which would give a contention ratio of 6:1. If you for a second think that ntl provide that contention ratio as a matter of course for £18 a month you're deluding yourself.

I can think of someone I know of who manages to download your monthly usage in a week.

As I've stated repeatedly before, this is a standard fact of life with the vast majority of mass-market ISPs, 5% of users are responsible for 60-70% of utilisation, and the only reason prices are as they are is that this 5% are subsidised to varying degrees by the other 95%.

Again not trying to turn this into a cap thread, just stating the facts as they are. Without the mass of light users who are the vast majority, the service would cost a fortune or be horribly oversubscribed.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Sorry but I can't let those comments pass without a response. While your figures are I believe accurate re 5% of users etc etc (which is true for a lot of things in life) by your logic we should next year see price reductions as those 5% become capped. Yeh right. We'll see BBand profits increase, the directors get a nice six figure bonus and the shareholders get an extra few cents dividend while the users gain a restricted service.

No doubt some will argue that users are going to gain extra speed. Well what do you know that's gonna cost NTL almost zip ongoing as the cap for most users will be the same (if not less) than current so bandwidth costs to NTL will lessen. I'll be able to use up my allowance in half the time. Whoppy doo.

BBand is profitable now. All ISP's are doing by introducing caps + PAYG overages is ensuring they can wring more profit out of the system. They know they will only upset 5% of their user base but set themselves up for increased profits over time as usage levels increase. I very much doubt we will ever see caps increase, instead PAYG will be the way to go as thats where the profit is.

Perhaps I'm being cynical but time will tell.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

No fine.

I actually disagree with you. The users who gain the extra speed will probably realise they can do more with their connection than they have been and will begin to make use of it more for the activities that before just took too long.

What it will I hope do is give everyone a fair chance to get what they are paying for, and inspire those who were previously reluctant or unable to do bandwidth intensive tasks to begin to watch that 750k streaming movie trailer, use newsgroups and download music and video.

The savings from the 5% will fund the extra benefits for the 95%. In my opinion this is a good thing.

Until the capacity ntl have is unmetered, it's tricky to do a model of unmetered access to customers, especially with the huge disparity in usage between heavy and light, without an equivalent disparity in how much they are paying.

Also this allows innovations such as the big speed increases, allows better planning of future upgrades, and most of all allows prices to be competitive, without having to worry how much extra needs to be provisioned for those who have a mission to download the entire Internet Movie Database.

I would love a capped but higher speed package, sadly not going to happen at the moment. But I want to do things FAST. These upgrades will for the majority take some of the wait out of using the internet and inspire new uses. You can please some people all of the time, all some of the time, never all all of the time.

Those who are hammering the service certainly aren't profitable. Where do you draw the line? Every company has the right to be able to charge and provision their services at a level which is profitable, and at the same time keeps as many customers as happy possible - which is exactly what in my opinion this achieves.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Is this a capping thread or a thread about increased BB options from NTL?

Because if it's the former we are in danger of another merge. ;)

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Seeing as we are mentioning contention ratios anybody noticed that 40GB a month on 3MBit does not equal a 20:1 contention ratio which NTL are mean't to offer? (going off the way Ignition has quoted contention rations)

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Speed of service is not going to benefit that many people. The problem with more speed at the client end of the equation is that content providers cannot and do not have the capacity to send the content that fast. For the general Joe Bloggs the difference between 1Mbit and 3Mbit will be unseen.

As to more users watching streaming video etc. That's not going to be viable and/or sustainable without said users incurring overage charges. User certainly won't be better off! NTL will.

Whilst I agree NTL is a company not a charity I see the entire Internet provisioning in this country returning to a late 90's PAYG system now that critical mass has been reached and users sucked on board by the promise of all you can eat solutions.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Another well thought out NTL alternative BB product (Not)

A Tv advert for NTL competition, Showing a family gathering round their networked computers suddenly greeted with a messege from NTL saying they have run out of allocated usage because.... Billy downloaded paid for content from M$ XbL, John was watching internet Tv, Sue was making voIP to her friends, dad was downloading M$ Sp2 & security patch upgrades & mum video conferencing to family in the USA etc.

Signup to NTL BB today

dont forget to read the small print because with NTL BB that faster the connection the more restrictions you will endure.

I wonder when the NTL BB T&C's are going tobe sneakly amended hehehe...

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

That's exactly the point that people seem to miss when they complain about the speeds going up but not the caps. For those people whose aim in life isn't to download the maximum possible about of data, being able to go see a movie trailer NOW rather than half an hour after you decided you wanted to see it is nice.

Weeb

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

If the 5GB allowance is just a guide line, and not strictly inforced, I'll go onto 1MB. But when they DO inforce it (if they ever will do) then I'll go to the 2MB.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

But surely there's got to be something in between being sat there watching the clock for every second that ticks by and having light users subsidise those who leech day and night?

Weeb

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I'm with Weeb on this one :tu: I very seldom want to look at this sort of thing or to download much.However when I do I don't see why I have to wait extra time because someone else is constantly maxing out their connection.I deserve consideration too because I too am paying for my BB.Why should I be be dismissed as a light user?

Right lets get off the capping and back to the point of the thread.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Why are we moaning about something that has not even happened yet??

I doubt that any of this is actually definate and things may yet change.

I for one consider myself to be an extremely heavy user and will use my connection for what I beleive it was intended for......Streaming huge amounts of data and great speeds.
There is hardly a point on having a 3MB connection and then imposing a cap on top of it so it cannot be fully used. Indeed the only reason I will go for the 3MB service is simply becuase of the higher cap. I believe that that they should have there fastest connection at an uncapped level but maybe up the price a little. I'm not talking £50 or anything stupid like that but maybe £40 or £42.

If other countries can have these sorts of speeds.....and WAY above AND have them uncapped or at the very lease capped WAY higher than ours then why can we not??

The other thing to remember is that ADSL will fight back next year aswell and if they introduce higher speeds they are going to have to produce something pretty special to compete with the prices NTL have set out so far.

Their weapon could may well be an Uncapped service. Just look around at the moment and you will find at least 3-4 who offer 2MB with an uncapped service for less than £40.
Hopefully if this cap is to strict for me and many others here thsn these options will offer an alternative to this capped service.
Unfortunately my rickety old phoneline and it's 512 capacity at present means I may have to make the best of this offer by NTL.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Capping is very much on topic, the speed increase and capping are inextricably linked. ntl are giving with one hand and taking with the other, and seemingly fooling a lot of people with their sleight of hand in the process.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Are they lowering the caps?

Weeb

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I think you can safely assume that it will be enforced, certainly not when they are first introduced, but as time progresses. I expect them to be enforced by the end of 2005.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Maybe but there is already a lot of long threads on the site about capping about three pages of them. :rolleyes:

Why not go find one of those and hijack that one?

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Well if they aren't enforced then they are a bit pointless as limits. I think there is an issue of a sensible way of doing it though. Nobody wants the byte gestapo turning up on their doorstep because they happened to go over the limit by a few kiB one day.

Weeb

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Indeed lets get back on topic. Is there any kind of vague plan as to when we might see the speed hikes?

Weeb

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

As a complete BB novice who downloads a few songs a month but reads web pages for a couple of hours a day how many GB usage am I looking at?

Anyone give me an idea of what these mean :-


300K 1MB †“ £17.99. (5GB* usage) + £5 for unlimited usage
750K 2MB †“ £24.99. (30GB* usage) + £7.50 for unlimited usage
1.5MB 3MB †“ £37.99. (40GB* usage) + £10 for unlimited usage

Does 5GB cover looking at the web everyday of the month and a few downloads.

Someone explain what each 5GB, 30GB & 40GB means....thanks very much

Also do I need to consider these for xbox live?

Cheers

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

It's good to finally see some people against the cap. About time!

Just like the lower band Broadband users were unable to make full use of their service, because it wasn't actually fast enough to view the content on BroadbandPlus, we're gonna come to the point where 3mb users can't use their connection to view the data it's supposedly built for, ie. internet TV, Internet radio, downloading game demo's (some of which are becoming almost as big as the games themselves), Movie Rentals (coming soon), and anything else a 3mb could really take advantage of!

The maths say that a 1mb user will be able to use their connection flat out for 23 mins a day, to stay within the 5GB limit per month. I've seen it argued on here that the faster speeds will encourage people to try things they've not tried before, going from 300k to 1mb, but once they DO try these things, they'll soon realise just how small 5GB is! And, as a result they'll have to upgrade to the 2mb service to continue using all these new and wonderful internet services (which i'm sure is what Ntl had in mind). Note: the 2mb service could be used for 69 mins flat out at full speed per day, to stay in line with the 30GB cap, which is probably about the average use for a low user.

2mb will become the low speed service for people wishing to use the service for more than browsing and emails. And with a 30GB cap it isn't a bad service. It'll be good competition against other services (apart from AOL and any other uncapped services).

But the real problem i have is with the 3mb service, it's supposedly the new frontier, the highest speed in the UK, taking Ntl to the forefront of ISP's. As such it should then be in line with technology, recent and immediate future.
Ntl also mention networking and an internet service for all the family to enjoy.

Taking an average family of 2 parents and 2 kids, that gives you 4 people using the connection. With possibly an average of 2 pc's connected in that family. 40GB a month cap on the 3mb service equates to roughly 58mins flat out full speed useage per day. That's for at least 4 email accounts, 4 sets of different tastes downloading movies, music, software, games, patches etc.
It gives you 2 adults that might want to download pornographic material from subscribed services, where some of the movie clips can be as large as 300mb. When movie rentals go online that'll be even bigger files being downloaded. Not sure how that's gonna work but even if the movies are only in divx that's 700mb per movie, if they're in full DVD format then that's 3-4gb per movie, not including extra's discs.

Then there's all the internet chatting, whether it be text chat, Voice chat and even Video chats (which use up a fair amount of bandwidth). Sending and recieving photo's, and possibly home movie clips.
Internet TV.
Internet Radio.
Internet Gaming.

Suddenly 40GB doesn't seem that high.
It amounts to 58mins of flat out full speed useage per day, to stay within the 40GB limit per month. If this movie rental service uses full DVD format, that amounts to about 8-10 DVD's a month. 2-2.5 per week. Which allows for NO other use throughout the month.

I think Ntl have really missed the boat on this one. If only 5% of users use up most of the bandwidth, instead of introducing a 3mb service, they should have offered 1mb low useage, with 5GB cap. 1mb medium useage, with 20GB cap (still higher than BT). And for High users a 1mb line with either uncapped service or something like 100GB. Many people have stated they're prepared to pay extra for an uncapped service.

If when these new services begin, AOL are still an uncapped service, their advertising will play on it even more, and i can see a LOT of people moving over to ADSL. The only thing to hold them back is the fact that Ntl have a 3mb line, but without the ability to use it to it's full capacity, it's merely a number and means nothing more.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I think we can decide if a thread is being hijacked or not. ;)

This topic is about the new speeds and the limitations that come with them. I do not consider the thread to be hijacked as long as the discussion is relevant to the new tiers and not about capping in general.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I think the caps will be enforced, why else mention them with the announcement ?
The current service only mentions caps in the small print.

I *would* be looking forward to 3mb speed, but the cap is way too small, and just adds a worry whilst surfing, towards the end of the month it may become impossible to view anything because you used up all your bandwidth earlier.

I dropped Broadband Plus because it took me way over the 1 gig limit when I was enjoying it along with my other web uses, as I've mentioned previously on here - I belong to Fileplanet and IGN, and frequently download game demo's and hi res videos, they post loads every day, 3mb speed would be ideal to get them, but then after about 10 days thats the 40 gig limit gone, and thats without any other downloads, service packs patches or Napster downloads etc, NTL need to wake up to the age they now live in, if they have to cap then make it sensible, especially on the top tier package, 5 gig a day at least is needed these days on high speed connections.

I host websites and run several dedicated server's, I pay around £60 a month for 1,000 gig (yes a *thousand* gig) of monthly bandwidth, and have done for a year or so, NTL own their own network, how can they propose to overcharge their own customers so much for bandwidth.

It doesn't add up.

Just my view.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Wrong. The average broadband user on a platform wide basis of an ADSL company whose lowest bandwidth package is 512k is 6GB/month. This is not a mass-market ISP, but one more associated with 'power users'.

I regard myself as a power user. I have 20:1 2Mbit Office ADSL. With the contention ratio and bandwidth available to me my share is 30GB/month. My average use is around the 20GB mark, combining upstream and downstream.

Wouldn't call 2Mbit low speed. Will be the equivalent of the current 750k service, the midrange product.

Sorry. My problem is that you are only looking from your point of view where you don't care how quickly you get things you just want to download as much as possible. Most people just want a faster internet experience, that's always on. Fact is although you come up with all these uses for 3Mbit that an average family will use, although I completely disagree that any average family will use the net in that manner they would be the exception rather than the rule, the vast vast majority want 100GB+ a month for P2P / illicit FTP / binary newsgroups. I would highly expect that as these new applications become more common likewise costs of bandwidth will also drop and capping can be done at higher levels for similar prices.

Now, my question is how much do you want to pay for this service? Would you be happy paying say £1.95 per GB, which is roughly what PAYG ADSL rates at their very cheapest are?

If people want to use their connections as if they have most of it to themselves they need to start looking at market prices of leased lines, transit bandwidth and the like.

The fact is ideally users would be charged for what they used, this saves someone paying £38 a month for a bit of remote administration, fast emails and browsing and the occasional update, while just down the road someone else is paying that self-same £38 a month to download 400GB a month of DVDR images, costing the ISP way way over the £38 they are paying.

Regarding your comment about a mass migration to ADSL. Frankly I don't think that any ISP could care less if their top 5% of users go to another ISP, then that ISP begins to struggle to cope with the new traffic so they cap, their heavy users move on until they get stuck on an ISP with insane contention, **** poor performance, but no caps so they can pull the DVDRs down at say 56k modem speeds. But hey, it's unlimited, and the vast majority of people obviously don't care how fast it is so long as they can pull as much as they want, right? :confused:

By the way this isn't just an 'ntl' or UK debate:

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/news,56419
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/rema...6052~mode=flat
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/rema...9044~mode=flat
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/rema...7614~mode=flat
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/rema...7637~mode=flat

Need I go on?

The packages have been laid out. They are on their way as described. Either deal with them, or vote with your wallet, simple as. Threatening the idea of the top 5% of users going to a different ISP isn't going to change any minds.

EDIT: I must emphasise again these are my opinions only.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Adds up perfectly to be honest sir. Taking data from a datacentre straight onto an already built transit line is easy and cheap. Taking it from various sites around the country, operating, maintaining those networks, paying staff to look after them etc has to be paid for. Any bandwidth charges have to take into account the fix charges regardless of usage, along with the costs of moving each GB from a customer's premises through a hybrid fibre / copper network to a uBR then the backhaul from there out to the internet.

EDIT: That price is exceptionally low by the way, last time I did any serious bandwidth shopping I was quoted £40 per Mbit/s a month, 95th percentile rate. Who is that with?

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

There are a few members on here talking about how unfair the usage allowances will be on the new speeds. They talk about all the things that you can do with your connection that keeps it maxed out 24/7. We all know that you can do all these things but realistically who would want or need to? They want higher and higher speeds at lower and lower cost but forget that the two do not equate. Yes, it would be fairly easy for NTL to give everyone 28Mb down and 2Mb up with no cap and all for £25 per month, but would it be usable? Customer service lines would be choked with customers saying they were getting lower speeds than dialup.

What NTL, or any other ISP, have to do is to provide packages that suit the needs of the vast majority of customers and at a price that those customers are willing to pay. There will always be some who are not satisfied with this and want something faster and the ability to take more than their fair share of it. Would these customers be prepared to pay the true cost of having an unlimited service?

I cannot see how anyone can be offered twice the speed for the same price and complain about it. Twice the speed means that a two hour download may only take an hour and then leave them free to do something else. It doesn't mean that they have to find another similar sized download to fill the other hour.

It may be a good thing for all those who are complaining about the unfairness of what NTL are giving them to look around for the ISP of their dreams who they think will give them all they desire.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

My interpretation is that Unlimited means no restrictions or having to monitor your usage but to NTL it means something completely different.

NTL should come up with a fair competitive price that customers can afford without mean restrictions/limits.

IMO I think the vast majority of NTL customers that use the internet daily would be prepared to pay a decent fair price for a fast BB tier that will be tailored to their usage/addiction.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Because I imagine a lot of people will think that it will be strictly enforced, and try and keep below them. Its an easy way to try and make some of the people who use a lot of bandwidth think about using less I suppose.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Exceeding your allocated daily limit after 23 minutes though? I thought NTL wanted to stop people using their connections 24 hours a day, not 24 minutes a day ?

Weeb

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I see no mention in these new tiers of unlimited, quite the opposite the restrictions seem quite clear.

Your opinion is wrong. Most users use their internet regularly, generally for low bandwidth applications. I don't think it's fair or that these users would be particularly overjoyed at subsiding heavier users.

I agree about a fair price for a fast tier tailored to usage though, how does £200+ for 3Mbit unlimited sound? Probably a fair price in context of the costs involved.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Anyone that says that they can use their daily allowance up in 23 minutes is talking out of the back of their head. Yes, theoretically you may be able to do so if not many of the other customers on your UBR were trying to do likewise, but get real, what do you actually do that would eat it up so fast, each and every day?

If the only choices you had were 5Mb download, 2Mb download or 1Mb download, all for the same price and all with the same upload and all wth a 1 gig per day allowance, which would you choose, and why?

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

NTL customers are already subsiding heavy users on the present tiers, & i havent seen daily posts on this forum with regards to complaints that heavy users are hindering NTL BB customers.

I also said affordable.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

[QUOTE=Ignition]Wrong. The average broadband user on a platform wide basis of an ADSL company whose lowest bandwidth package is 512k is 6GB/month. This is not a mass-market ISP, but one more associated with 'power users'.[\QUOTE]

I was making the point that if people start using the internet more, and for more bandwidth hogging services, due to the extra speed they will now have, the 5GB will soon get stretched. It was someone else who suggested it might take place, i merely used that example.

In your opinion what makes a 'power user'? How many hours a day do you spend on the internet? How often do you watch Internet TV, listen to Internet Radio, are you subscribed to any Music download services, film download services, do you play online games a lot? etc.

From what many people are saying the 1mb teir will not be a viable low speed service due to the low cap. So in my opinion 2mb will become the low teir, in many peoples minds.

I totally disagree. My average useage for the past few months has been about 35GB (including upstream). I have in the past used a lot more, but i just don't use the internet as much as i did. We're both guilty of the same thing, i'm looking at it from my perspective, and you're looking at it from yours. You want more speed, i like the idea of more speed, but can't justify it in light of the low caps. It always becomes an argument about P2P and illicit software/movies etc, but there are many legitimate uses of bandwidth that can take up just as much GB's.

You say if these services become more common that the prices will drop and capping will be done at a higher level. P2P is already very common, the numbers of people using the various P2P methods are sky high, the UK included. Yet we're seeing companies run the opposite way, choosing to take advantage of it and charge more for it. Was it you who said if the 5% of people overusing the service were to be capped, then the companies would lower their prices? If not I apoligize, but it's a very naive mindset. ISP's rely on high users, and people that will pay for the faster speeds. Ntl will use the 3mb teir as a selling point, they can boast the fastest speeds, knowing full well that not many of their customers (in comparison with those on lower teirs) could make use of the speed. Most of the people (in my opinion) who would want and make use of a 3mb service will be those who overrun the guidelines now on the 1.5 connection.

I'd be very interested in finding out just how many people thinking of getting 3mb will use it just to download the odd file, at a faster speed, and how many will be getting it so they can download a lot of files, and do it faster. I'd have thought most would be in the latter category. And that those people are valuable to Ntl, as if they leave and very few people subscribe to the 3mb teir, they won't have the funding or the drive to look towards 4mb, 5mb and 10mb for the future.

Considering Ntl have their own backbone and provide all the bandwidth themselves i'm sure they could do a much better deal than that. Don't you think? ;)

It's those people paying £38 for not much use that keeps Ntl earning money. The 5% of people overusing the service cost nowhere near as much sa the money Ntl are making by charging low use customers £38, £25 and £18 a month so they can send a few emails and tallk to granny simpson across the water. I agree with your argument, you shouldn't be paying £38 for a bit of occasional browsing, emails and the odd security update. In an ideal world there would be two seperate teir systems. A speed system and a bandwidth allowance system:
Teir system 1:
1mb = £9.99 a month (5GB cap).
2mb = £14.99 a month (20GB cap)
3mb = £24.99 a month (30GB cap).

Teir system 2:
1mb = £17.99 a month (20GB cap).
2mb = £24.99 a month (50GB cap).
3mb = £37.99 a month (100GB cap).

Or something similar. That way people could choose which is more important to them, speed or cap. Or, possibly they could come up with a decent pricing system for extra GB's on top of your cap. In the same way that some mobile phone providers offer Text bolt on's etc. Maybe £1.49 for 1GB, £6.49 for 5GB, £9.99 for 10GB, £15.99 for 20GB, etc.

I disagree, as i pointed out above, companies rely on the people who overuse the service, as they are the ones prepared to pay for the newer, faster speeds, so they can get MORE downloads, and keep the ISP driving towards still faster speeds. It's how Ntl advertised broadband in the first place, UNLIMITED service. It's an interesting point you make about the quality of the service, Ntl's quality has been disgraceful! Email servers that work when they want to, Newsgroups that hardly EVER work, outages at least once a month in most area's. AOL are uncapped, and i've not heard of many problems with them.

Btw, another point about contention etc. Most people who use P2P and the likes, tend to do most of their downloading at night, when the service isn't being used as much, it'll be interesting to see how the new 3mb speed will affect daytime useage, when the people who just want to download their updates faster, are doing so at the same time as peak service, when people on all the other teirs are downloading too. Compared to the 5% of users that download lots of files overnight, when most people on the other teirs aren't using their bandwidth. :D

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Not sure whether this has occured to NTL but all these customers they lose to ADSL due to these caps, who are being encouraged to "vote with their wallets" won't just be disconnection their broadband, they will be taking their TV and telephone custom elsewhere. There are plenty of alternatives and at cheaper prices. Personally the only reason I am with NTL is for the unlimited broadband. I will regularly go over that 30gb month cap. Once NTL kick me off my TV and telephone package will be cancelled. I'm not going to continue to pay £40+ a month for a sub-standard service when I can be with Sky for less, with a better service.

I would prefer 512k and no restrictions, to do what I want when I want, than 2mbit for a couple of weeks usage.

NTL needs to remember how lucrative their TV service is, losing customers due to restrictions on their broadband service is far from wise. But they are a company and their decisions are down to their shareholders, not their loyal customers.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Are you suggesting that the the connection quality will be so poor it will be impossible to sustain a download at that speed?

I probably don't use that much, but a 170MB limit a day is going to make me think twice about doing an apt-get upgrade and having it say it wants to download 40MB of stuff.

Maybe you should go read some of my other posts?

Weeb

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Some people seem to think that there are only two types of users, the granny who does a little browsing and sends a few emails and the power user who uses every high bandwidth product possible 24/7. The truth is that every user has a requirement that can be anywhere between the two extremes.

Anyone that can say that it is the really heavy downloader that is important to ISPs should remember that it is only the light users who make it possible for the heavy users to have their service at the price they do. If all there was were heavy users then I dread to think what price you would have to pay.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Ev1Servers
http://www.ev1servers.net/english/value_series.asp

Very reliable, had several servers with them for a couple of years.

I appreciate that NTL have other overheads, but these days to cap bandwidth is pretty poor, it may be what several isp's do, but I suspect that is only because they can, not because they must :(

It used to be that only poor quality bandwidth was low priced (Cogent/Williams etc) but now even premium bandwidth such as Level3 and AboveNet are almost as cheap.

cheers

Ian

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

EXACTLY my point. I'm not a granny who sends one email a month, and I'm not a "power user" that hammers the thing 24/7. Which package am I "supposed" to be on? Is the intention that the (new) 1Mb service is supposed to be for super-light users only? If so I doubt they'd be willing to pay £18 a month for the privilege and will keep on using modem (is there going to be a new 150k service in there with some pitifully minute download limit for that market). Or will I be expected to cough up extra cash because I (hypothetically) use 6GB a month ?

Weeb

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I play Planetside, download TV series if I miss them, music from time to time, remote administration, 2 PCs running, so browsing, email, also newsgroups (binary and text)

EDIT: Bandwidth: /Current Downstream: 245.37kb/s º Current Upstream: 5.73kb/s\

Not really, I doubt many 300k users use it for big downloads, its' attractions are that it's always on on a price point close to that of freecall dialup.

Nope, I'm looking at it from the point of view of at what point a company can make money and afford to innovate while keeping as many customers as possible happy. Based on what I know about the UK and international internet industry these limits are a reasonable compromise, and more generous than current competition in the low price higher speed market.

Check out Wanadoo, they've added hundreds of thousands of users on the back of low cost high speed capped services. This is why I'm saying your viewpoint is that of a minority, the facts say the majority like this kind of service.

35% of ALL internet usage is Bittorrent. Bittorrent is responsible for 55% of all P2P. ISPs are having strain placed on their networks by P2P, as they pay a metered charge to their bandwidth providers, and P2P by nature tends to use non-peered connections. Check the links I gave to see how other providers are being forced to act to keep their prices to reasonable and provide good QoS.

Agreed to an extent on the first point. Entirely disagree on the second point. If the top tier is unprofitable where's the incentive or as you put it the funding to raise speeds so that you can lose more money each month on data transfer?

Level3, Sprint, Cogentco, Cable and Wireless.net and all the other transit providers would disagree that ntl provide all the bandwidth themselves, someone has to take your data to other countries and they expect to be paid for the use of their networks.

I wouldn't bet on the 5% not costing that much. Interesting you use the word 'overusing' there. That 5% are a big margin muncher.

So long as you don't mind paying premium rate for tech support, supplying your own modem, paying for engineer calls if that kit goes wrong, need I go on? There's a hell of a lot more to the costs to provide the service than just bandwidth!

If ntl's costs are per GB similar to those BT have just to take traffic from ADSL exchanges and deliver them to ISPs (NOT including external bandwidth) those costs are a non-starter, unprofitable by default.

Good idea! Perhaps in the future this will be looked at!

Point re: driving forward addressed above. Newsgroups from what I've seen of them are being very well behaved. Outages once a month? Due to the size of the network outages are inevitable. To say everyone has an outage once a month is pretty unfair. AOL use BT's network for most of their ADSL service. As a comparison how many problems have you seen with the ntl operated virgin.net? If ntl are this atrocious how come despite only covering about 35% of the country they are the 2nd biggest retail ISP?

Doesn't really make much odds when people are piling up loads of stuff to download in a queue. Those really hammering their service are just as likely to be doing it in peak time, when there are at the PC queueing stuff up. I doubt that many are up in the middle of the night just to queue up. Also uploading is rarely done just overnight. Can think of at least 2 people I know who are respectively uploading 24x7 on emule to improve their credits and seeding torrents 24x7. 1 person using 1/15th-ish of an upstream that should hold 250+ people. On 3Mbit they can munch 1/10th of a downstream expected to hold several hundred happily.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

So I was either one of the 1% on an overcapacity UBR or there were other fundamental problems beyond just overcapacity that led me to finally chuck in the towel ;)

All this major investment didn't see to do a think for my unreliable connection. In fact when they started mucking about it got worse!! :(

Still, I'm sure I would have been better off with waiting for 3Mbps and have a cheap super fast connection... that is useless because the connection is unreliable.

;)

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Interesting point. Bear in mind that that one 1.5 Meg user uses the same bandwidth as 5 300K users. Which do you think is more profitable for NTL? 1x£37.9 9 or 5x£17.9 9?

Even taking in to account costs of service provision, I would say it's the 300K users who are more profitable. IIRC most NTL users are on the lower bandwidth as well.
You don't know many AOL users then... NTL do have problems, but they are not as bad as you have made out. Well, maybe the email servers are.

In my experience, people are not considerate enough to do that..

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Can some one tell me if that is what NTL said, if so I'll pay the extra £5 for unlimited bandwidth.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Other issues in your case sir, all fixed and all good last time I checked.

You have a PM.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

It isn't. 1Mbit unlimited for £22.99 a month? Not likely.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

A good few people on here would disagree. Some people just couldn't afford to get a higher speed, now they'll be forced to either upgrade to 2mb or look elsewhere, as the cap just isn't good enough for them.

On lower teirs i can understand how a lot of people wouldn't mind, if they're just getting emails etc. My real argument is with the higher teirs, 3mb mainly.

In an earlier post you stated that if these services became more common then the charges would drop, now you're saying they're a stain on the system and costing companies too much money. :rolleyes:

I still think they make much more money from the underusers than they lose with the overusers. And in return the overusers keep them ahead of the competition, wanting the fastest speeds possible, and paying enough to keep it viable, so they can use it in advertising, that they are the fastest provider in the UK.

So long as you don't mind paying premium rate for tech support, supplying your own modem, paying for engineer calls if that kit goes wrong, need I go on? There's a hell of a lot more to the costs to provide the service than just bandwidth!

Getting through to Tech Support would be nice, maybe with a premium service they'd HAVE to answer calls faster. :D But points taken.

I'm still having problems with a lot of newsgroups, i don't use them much myself, mainly because i'm put off by them not working very often. I have problems with email at least once a week, sometimes it's only for a few mins, sometimes it can be all day, sometimes it's a lot more than once a week, and judging by the posts on this forum it's not just me suffering from it.

They're one of the biggest because they aren't just an internet company. They bundle TV, Phone and Internet together. Most people prefer to simplify things by buying all 3 products from the same provider. The only reason i haven't moved to another provider when going through problems with Ntl was it would mean taking my phone to BT. So i stuck with it in hope that they'd sort it out. It's better now, but far from acceptable at times. A lot of people on this board didn't wait as long as me, as can be seen in countless posts.

It makes more sense to do your downloading at night, it doesn't get in the way of what you're doing through the day, browsing, emails etc, and also more people are on the foreign networks at night, so you get more people to share from.
THe thing is though, if that were the case, where the 5% of people overusing the service were crippling it, why have Ntl taken the speeds up so high? Whereas before most people on ntl were downloading at 30k/sec, standard, they'll be able to download at 124k/sec now. They've just put 4 times the strain on the network at any given time. When people were on the 1mb service as the highest teir, it was argued that they were at fault for slowing down other peoples service, downloading at 124k/sec constantly. Now the network is going to be flooded with people using at LEAST 124k/sec, while browsing etc. Is there less people on each UBR now to allow for that, or will people just suffer slow speeds? :confused:

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Darn it. I don't want to pay £25 a month just for the extra bandwidth, and the 2MB speed, as I don't need it. I would pay £23 for 1MB and 30-40GB bandwidth per month though.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I didn't say they were more profitable. They help by taking the highest speed, and giving them the need for a faster speed in the first place, so they can boast of having the fastest connection in the UK.

I actually know quite a few people on AOL, and they are mostly very happy with the service. Being uncapped just makes it even sweeter.

And the Ntl service IS as bad as i think. It has been getting better, but it's by no means good enough yet. I've never had a single problem of speed, i always get my full bandwidth, on whichever connection i've been on. Even when i was downloading 24/7. But i've always had problems with email, newsgroups, complete loss of service for hours and days at a time, waiting for Tech Support to answer the phone, finding someone in Tech Support who actually knew anything (there are some that are fantastic help, all welsh in my experience, but a lot that don't know what they're talking about, instead following keyword based instructions on a screen.), etc. :Yikes:

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Sorry, like everything else pretty much you get what you pay for.

No, you were talking about people streaming DVDs, etc. I don't really think that P2P is everyone's idea of a great new service, especially as no-one makes any money out of it. When there's money to be made service providers will step up to the plate. At the momet giving the majority of your network's bandwidth away so that people can down / upload for the most part copyrighted material for free is a big revenue maker....

The point that you are missing is that the overusers AREN'T the ones paying enough to keep it 'viable' it's all the people who pay over the odds to offset these people that make it viable! Market forces inspire changes like this.

For everyone on this board with issues there are literally hundreds of thousands of happy bunnies. If it were any other way ntl would be out of business.


Less people on a uBR, loads of network upgrades, and the network won't be flooded with people pulling that rate all the time. Most people's traffic is bursty, and the usage allowances act as a disincentive to people who may want to download full pelt all the time. 1 person downloading at 180k/s 90% of the time is far worse than several people downloading at 360k/s 5% of the time...

Think we can safely agree to disagree though on this. I accept your points even though I disagree with most of them, and have as much as possible supplied evidence to that effect.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Personally I think that I am in Happy Valley.

Over the years my telecoms bill has remained virtually the same, if you take inflation into account it has actually reduced considerably.

My first acoustic coupler (300/75 Baud) + voice call charges used to cost me what I am paying for Phone and 1.5 MB BB today.


In the past when speeds increased you had to buy a new modem to take advantage of them, initially these were incredibly expensive, this cost had to be added to your overall telecoms costs.

It seems to me that you could complain about the price of houses, food, clothes, booze, cars, petrol and virtually every other commodity, but surely not telecoms, be fair.

In todayââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s telecom world we are spoiled rotten.

:hugs: [img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

and there speaks the voice of reason :tu:

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

NTL claim to have 1m broadband customers, and also that 5% of them use too much bandwidth. Let's say those 5% left NTL and went to another unlimited ISP. That's 50,000 lost customers. These people won't change their downloading habits. Let's say all these people are spending at least £50 a month for their broadband and TV and they take their custom elsewhere, that is a loss of £30m a year. Is NTL really losing more than that in bandwidth costs?

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I presume they must be as NTL will already have done the math before they decided to upset 5% of their customers.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Just to point out, what is being spent on other services isn't pure profit, assuming this is the case it'd be measured against how much profit is being made on the services, not on how much is being taken in total.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

As any businessman knows, it's better to have the money coming in than not. I do not believe those 50k customers are costing NTL more than what they make out of them.

Why are people not given an unlimited option? Instead they are being forced elsewhere. It's not the quality of service that will keep these people with NTL after they've been kicked off their broadband.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Bluntly an unlimited option is unsustainable given these prices, however much bandwidth is given a percentage of users literally use all of it. There are users who, on 1.5Mbit, are downloading over 400GB a month. On 1Mbit they were doing close to 300.

Give these guys 3Mbit, which I'd remind you is about 1/10th of an entire EuroDOCSIS downstream normally good for hundreds of users, they'll be pulling over 800GB.

From a datacentre I would pay £120 a month for such bandwidth; include the various costs of traversing the ntl network as well as the transit cost and you are looking at hundreds of pounds a month for this.

Do you consider it acceptable for a single user to force upgrades costing tens of thousands prematurely, cost hundreds a month to a provider, and for what, the £50 or so a month where most people would draw the line as absolute maximum they would pay?

You hear about 'resegmentation'. This process involves numerous man-hours, five figures in parts and equipment as well. Full downstreams require this sort of upgrade. The end result being that costs go up for everyone.

Would you rather people pay more money for less speed, or that the majority are catered for with fast products that suit their needs, rather than trying to look after them and a small minority who impact on costs.

Look at Telewest's packages. The 750k is £24.99, 1.5Mbit £34.99, 3Mbit £49.99. NTL's packages will be 1Mbit @ £17.99, 2Mbit @ £24.99, 3Mbit @ £37.99.

Then tell me that allowing unlimited usage doesn't impact both on the quality of service that can be offered, and on the prices that have to be charged to maintain the quality that UK users have become accustomed to, and demand.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I personally could <edit> not <edit> give two hoots about increased speed. 1.5MBit is more than ample for my needs. What I do care about is limiting the amount I can use my connect which is what capping will do. If NTL where to offer an all you can eat 512/256Kbit connect at a reasonable monthly sum I'd most likely jump at it. As it stands now I'll probably move providers next year when the new caps come into play. I do not and will not return to 'clock watching' my usage.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Good luck finding one. With BT Wholesale moving to capacity-based carging, unless the ADSL ISPs adjust their business model to suit, they're not going to have a business.

There's no such thing as a free lunch, and the days of all-you-can-eat broadband are numbered.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

You make it sound like BT are the only back haul carrier? If and when all the back haul carriers join the PAYG party then and only then will we see the death of all you can eat.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

There are plenty of backhaul carriers, but most are not interested in the domestic market.

BT have edged themself into a nice position. They've made LLU too expensive for most ISPs, and they've made datastream pretty unreliable, by selling extremely highly contended virtual paths. The whole thing is run of an antequated SDH and often even PDH infrastructure.

Most tier-1 ISPs have been forced to opt for IPstream, and others are shifting that way too. Few tier-2's have the ability to get backhaul, possibly with the exception of wanadoo, who have energis. And I doubt the vISPs even care, as long as they make their quick buck...

Oh, and once it gets back to the ISP, they're certainly no all-you-can-eat for peering and transit anyway!!

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

No, BT aren't the only one. They are, however, the largest.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

errr so what have you been doing since one Friday afternoon a couple of years when the 'amended T&C' came into effect? (the original CAP, 1G over 3 consecutive in 14days).

One good thing about the deteriaration (sp) of this into 'Another Capping Thread' is the fast self 'outing' of the 5%, providing NTL with even more 'public domain' ammunition from 'its users' to verify (wrong word I know) any action that NTL may take IF and WHEN the new limits are written into the T&C and for any action they MAY take against 'offenders'.

The writing is on the wall and has been for the past few years, just another 'thing' you'll have learn to live with when it comes to t'internet, along with the raft of virii, scams and other associated crap that the majority of users now take daily into the stride of their 'online' experience.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

:clap: :clap: :clap: and sent a rep for this post

it is true the unlimited downloads is running out of time just like unlimited dial up ran out of time same thing brought down both over use.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

There's a little difference between 40gb and 800gb though. It's not a budget tier being offered, this is almost £40 a month. Give a realistic cap, people aren't paying for 3mbit to check their email and maybe download a couple of mp3s every month.

Anyone that's used genuine high speed internet will tell you that once you've gone above 1mbit you see no difference in downloading webpages. NTL is offering a gimmick pure and simple. Back to this much used car analogy, not only are we being limited in the speed we can drive, we are now being limited on how far we can drive our car each month. Fine some people only need a car to drive 5 miles into work, some people drive long distances. Offer capped services, but give people the option to download a sensible amount. Are you saying people are going to pay an extra £13 a month for the priveledge of an extra 10gb? On a high speed, high end 3gb connection, costing almost £40 a month, quite frankly 40gb takes the ****.

Fair numbers would be....

Low Tier: whatever, it doesn't matter it's for people that need little bandwidth, 5gb is fine.

Mid Tier: 50gb. This is FAIR. It is a reasonable amount.

High Tier: Remember these people pay A LOT compared to other countries (most of which need to use the bandwidth of the UK to get to USA) give them 100gb. It's why they're paying so much for net access. Most of the users in this category can get 2mbit DSL with unlimited bandwidth for £40 (location permitting)

All I'm saying is most people can accept the need for caps, but make them realistic for the money people are paying.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Where have your figures for these "acceptable" caps come from? Out of the air? That's what it appears to be.

Any caps will be based on an ISPs costs for provision of access, backhaul, and their profit margins.

That is the only realistic value of capping, the one that lets the ISP provide the service it intends. You might want to take a look at some other places, like australia for instance. Then decide again if those caps are "realistic" for people's money...

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Umm 'our' bandwidth is certainly not the same thing as all these other countries, it's not 'our' bandwidth, it's fibre runs that happen to go past the UK, not 'our' bandwidth.

There are a lot of reasons why net access is so expensive here, lack of Government assistance, cable not being the #1 way to watch TV, being an Island and having to use submarine fibre to get to most places to name just 3.

So, why is 3Mbit a high tier here when it's a lower tier elsewhere, why in Canada, so close to the states do operators offer 5 and 10Mbit down with a measly 30GB/month? Why there are contentions way higher than the ~25:1 that's normal here workable?

What you consider a 'fair' amount is vastly above average. IMHO no-one on a home connection should really be using 100GB without paying a massive premium to coincide with the amount of data they are using.

Pay your money, take your choice. If you dislike the packages offered take any other option there may be.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Yeah we can all use extremes, I'll use Japan and sweden as mine.

The fact is I will leave NTL if these caps are imposed at such low levels. People on here are the bandwidth police so won't care that much what I do, maybe NTL shareholders will, but I'm certainly not alone in this. I'd be happy paying £22 for unlimited 512k ADSL at Nildram.

In all honesty I'm not bothered who supplies my internet access, come the new year NTL will no longer offer the service I require. I've been with them 5 years and have been happy with the service they've provided, but it seems now is the time to move on.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Thats pretty well sums it up for me, if i'm going to have ridiculously low caps imposed [i have one connection shared with my lads pc] then i'm off to whoever [ie Nildram]wont penalise me.
I dont mind paying, thats not the issue as theres no proviso for those that go above, thats what i find antiquated.
Someones already countered with the "all isps will soon be capped" bit, but there will be a market, and someones going to capitalise, and i see AOL are still bragging about no download quotas.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

For starters, the old services are staying, for existing customers.

Nildram being IPStream won't want you doing that sort of rate, and will soon find a fair-use clause to get rid of you or charge you, when BT force them into capacity-based charging.

And the caps are not low, they're pretty damn good actually. Japan and sweden have a totally different system of backhaul.

Face it, 50 or 100gig/month is not domestic use in the current climate. You're either using it for business purposes, or illegal uses. And don't tell me you can download 100gig/month of linux ISOs, that's b0110cks, and you know it.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

3 words to all detracors

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I'm not going to tell you anything about what my pc is used for. Quite frankly it's none of your business. I do not download excessively (IN MY OPINION), but 30gb is not enough for my needs. Furthermore there has been no confirmation that the old tiers will continue, and even if they do whether they will include the new caps.

Other ISPs provide a service that suits me, I have no brand loyalty to NTL, I owe them nothing to stay with them. It is no skin off my nose if I leave them, and I'm sure nobody on here cares if I stay or go. The service is changing and it does not suit my needs. There really is no arguement about how my usage habits should change as they will not, just because an ISP decides we should stop using the internet for things that have become daily life.

NTL can do what they like with their services, but people will leave. Maybe the future is back to 56k, maybe my fridge will never be connected to the internet incase it orders 1 too many cans of coke and sends me over my usage limit, but I will cross those hurdles when there is no other option. People in a modern world rely on the internet, if ISPs can't keep up people will move over to companies that can. There are plenty of ISPs that can offer a service people are happy with.

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Dont forget that NTL have used illegal uses in their promotional material in the past to intice people to use their service, anyone remeber that advert which stated that you could get spiderman the movie before it was released on video which someone posted to these forums.

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I've been ignoring it completely! I did not sign up to a restricted service and I will not adhere to such. If my usage was excessive enough to be causing local problems then I would fully expect a letter from NTL. That hasn't occured but that may be in part because I do all I can to limit the impact of my usage on other users. DL's take place over night not during peak periods. I use flashget for all HTTP and FTP DL's and have it scheduled such that any files I select during the course of a day are queued and DL'd to a schedule. Yes I probably am one of the 5% of heavy users that is causing so much grief and strife for other NTL customers (or so NTL would like people to beleive) but how DLing after midnight can cause so much strife is beyond me.

Which actually raises a number of interesting points about the caps. Whose going to be hit by usage charges when they get spammed to death, mail bombed or the latest Windows vunerability lands dozens of customers machines open to spammers relaying via them. Should bring some very interesting threads to these forums in the future, eg my broadband bill is X hundred pound but I haven't used my machine sort of threads :) In fact it could prove a very cost effective way of causing people that you dislike serious grief to the wallet. Sign em up to a few dozen porn mailing lists. Within days their email address would be known to half the porn industry :)

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Let's get a few things clear:

We live in the UK not Sweden or Japan.

Nobody is forcing anyone to remain a NTL customer.

The majority of members on here think that the new deal from NTL is a fantastic deal.

Anyone with an ounce of common sense can see the way that broadband charging is moving in the UK and it isn't to an unlimited "all you can eat" system.

Yes, there are companies fighting for market share that are offering unlimited use at the moment, but how long will this last? If all the bandwidth hoggers move to these then it won't be long before they are forced to take action and enforce restrictions. The only alternative for them is to let unlimited downloads slow their network to a crawl.

Technology will advance and customers will require more bandwidth in the future but the same technological advances will allow ISPs to provide this extra bandwidth.

All the moaning and complaining in the world will not alter the arithmetic which dictates how much ISPs have to charge to make a profit and what speed and bandwidth allowance they can provide for that charge.

If you think that some ADSL ISPs offer a faster service and / or unlimited bandwidth allowance and will continue to do so in the future then back up your convictions, give them your custom and buy as many shares in the company as you can. You must be on a winner according to your logic.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Since several people have mentioned it, I have added the vote option for staying as you are.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I intend to wait and see. In fact one of my earlier posts was aimed at trying to gain additional info regarding what the Bandwidth Police will have in their arsenal. The current details from NTL are sketchy at best regarding the cap and how it's going to be implemented but I beleive this is a planned move on NTL's part. They don't want to emphasize the restricted nature of their new offerings. Instead they want to get some mileage out of being the fastest mainstream operator before they confirm their plans for the cap. I cannot blame them for this as it's sound marketing but it does lead to speculative threads such as this one because users aren't presented with all the facts.

As to still being with NTL. I have so far had no contact from them regarding my usage. If and when I do get a cease and desist letter thats when I'll initiate a move to an alternate ISP. I have played a wait and see policy so far and will continue to do so until NTL make it such that I cannot use my connection in the manner that I choose (and I won't get drawn on wether what I choose is right or wrong as everyone's view on that differs).

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

True
Again true.
As has already been said "You cannot please all of the people all of the time":)
But does that not worry people? I've used the net for years and have payed serious sums for my usage. I don't want to return to that. Do you?
But will they? or will they simply bolster their profits?
But broadband is not making a loss know so these changes aren't to return to a profitable operation but simply suck more profit out of an already profitable solution.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Thanks. My vote has been cast :)

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As you have stated, you have continually gone about your current 1 gig a day cap and NTL have NOT written to you. Has it occured that maybe they are using the current cap purely as a fixed figure above which they can say "that's excessive downloading". What I mean is that when I joined BB (back in around 2000), the AUP did say something about not downloading excessive amounts, but did not specify what "excessive" was.

Now, as far as I can tell, NTL have been using the cap this way, as a limit above which they can advise people who are causing problems in their local areas to reduce their downloading.

Assuming NTL have been doing this, who is to say they won't do the same in future? You seem to assume NTL will suddenly cut off or reprimand any customer who goes over the limit.

If they do, fine, complain. Until NTL do that (and I don't think they will), there is nothing to complain about.

Bear in mind that the average spam seems to be around the 50-100K (and that's being generous) mark, exactly how much spam is someone going to need to get to use up even 5 Gig a month?

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Hmm, 1% so far... :erm:

So I am not the only on that thinks that this is a good opportunity then.... :cool:

Runs for cover.... ;)

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Granted it would take a LOT of spam to use 5GB a month but it is theoretically possible (yes I know everything works in theory and we should all move there :) )

The other points are very valid though. Virus attacks which install backdoors etc. have been problems in the past. Even the probing from some of the viruses caused serious net problems and generated huge amounts of traffic. Again the probing would not be enough to cause cap overage in it's own right but at the same time the traffic would be attributed to a users monthly total. The users will still be picking up the tab for unsolicited traffic.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I too have paid very serious sums for my usage over the years. Nobody is suggesting that these days will return. What we have been used to in the last few years though is ISPs offering very cheap and quite often below cost internet connections in order to win market share. When broadband was first launched it was quite easy to offer unlimited services as there were not enough users to make an impact on usage. Reality must come into the market at some stage.

These are marketing decisions at the end of the day.

How do you know that broadband is not making a loss? Do you know how much ISPs in general and NTL in particular are spending on the network at the moment? If you look at the poll at the top of this thread you can work out the gain or loss in revenue that NTL will achieve if this sample is representative of the customer base as a whole. Without doing any sums you can see at a glance that it would lose revenue.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I work in the internet industry so I'm reasonably in the know. I've also spoken to highup NTL insiders who have stated the profitable nature of their broadband provisioning. That's one of the reasons this 'cap' bugs me so much.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I'm not sure what you're all talking about :erm: There's a vague "news" item on the front page that presents a lot of maybes and no hard facts, particularly prices. Someone PM when the details are released, then I will decide whether to move up, down or stay put. I'm not paying more than £20 a month though - these days I only use the Net between 18:00 and 00:00

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Don't use the old selective reading trick, it was quite clear I was making the point we don't live in Australia, by saying look at the other end of the spectrum. I know we live in UK and I know we work by a different model.

Nobody is saying they are.

People realise this, just because not everyone is the 'majority' doesn't mean our opinions become void. We live in a democracy you know.

It is a complete myth that heavy users slow down everyone else on the network. In the 3 years I have had broadband from NTL I have not once not been able to download at full speed. Maybe some areas are overloaded, but that is NTL's problem, not the customers in the areas with plenty of bandwidth to spare.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Maybe now would be a good time to start talking about anarchic community networks?? :D

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Perhaps but I have to say some are very selfish.. Just coz they have always had full speed some of us havent.

I know at times I can be heavy user but nothing in the three figures and those that dodownlaod hundreds of gigs a month are not paying the fair share for what they use of the network and perhaps they should pay per gig they download.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

It is a hard mathematical and physical fact that heavy users can slow other users down. Unless you are just playin with words when you say "everyone else on the network". You may have been lucky and always been able to download at full speed, but not everyone can claim this. Whether an area is overloaded or not is a matter of definition. Just because a customer cannot download at full speed all the time doesn't mean the area is overloaded. It is just contention taking its toll.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

It's hardly a play on words, you said the "network would slow to a crawl". I am yet to experience this, or know anyone else who has. Yet it comes up a lot in forums. Possibly a tactic used to get the lighter users to believe the heavier users are too blame for NTL's lacking network? Purely speculation, of course.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

If you read carefully the article that you quoted part of you will see that I said "Yes, there are companies fighting for market share that are offering unlimited use at the moment, but how long will this last? If all the bandwidth hoggers move to these then it won't be long before they are forced to take action and enforce restrictions. The only alternative for them is to let unlimited downloads slow their network to a crawl." Think about this for a moment. If all NTL users on a specific UBR were to move to the highest tier and tried to max their connections out, what do you think would happen and what do you think NTL should do?

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Lets not allow this to degenerate into a mud slinging match. Some users have suffered degradation of their connections. I was one of them. In my case though it wasn't related to other users but simply a misbehaving UBR.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I've expressed my opinion, if the cap is enforced, I will leave NTL. There's really nothing more to it, it's not a bad thing, but it will just be time to move on. Until all ISPs do go PAYG there's really nothing to worry about. The new tiers are good for some and bad for others. But there are alternatives, yes I would rather not have the hassle of signing up for a new ISP and buying a DSL modem, but if that's the way it has to be, that's the way it will be.

I really don't understand why corporations have a big fan bases, none of them are out to please customers, but to make money. Including the ones still offering unlimited access, they must have a business plan that works.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Probably the best idea is to wait and see how this works out, in particular what will happen if you exceed the "cap". If you then think that it is not for you the look around, find one that appears to be what you want and pay whatever it may cost for you to transfer.

Whilst corporations are out to make money, some of them realise that you can make more by pleasing customers. You do not have to be a fan of a company to recognise a good deal. ISPs that are still offering unlimited access may or may not be making any money but may be subsidising the service to gain market share. There is a limit to how long this can go on.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Jeez,

I was thinking, damn thats nice of NTL to do that. Then realized it's NTL here, there has to be a catch. I'd rather stick to what i have now and have no download limit, than upgrade and have a download limit. If i upgrade i'll only reach my download limit quicker :dozey:. This upgrade will be doing nothing for me personally. I hope they give us the choice of sticking with what we have at the moment and upgrading.

Have to laugh though,
1mbit - 5GB cap
2mbit - 30GB cap

If that happens there are going to be alot of ****ed customers. You can't have a 1mbit connection and have a download limit of 5GB. That's hillarious.

Ah well, can't wait for the official word !:Yikes:

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

I got NTL 512K access back in 2000. It was £19.99, then they increased the price to £24.99 and gave me 600K access. Nice !

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Those speeds and limits are the "official" word.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

Most families I know would prefer lower prices rather than higher speeds, they donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t do much surfing and they only send the odd E-mail, in actual fact they donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t really need Internet access at all if the truth is known, they probably only got it because they knew someone else with it. They donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t know about warez, mp3ââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s etc. in fact they donââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t really understand how to use the Internet or their computer. Going off the number of families I know like this I would assume that these are probably fairly typical users these days as Internet access moves into the mainstream.

Although this type of customer may appear good for business as far as IPâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s are concerned they are never going to be able to persuade them to move to a more expensive service, on the other hand, the more knowledgeable user may use more bandwidth but there is also a good chance that they can be persuaded to pay more for a higher tier service, now or in the future.


It would appear to me that NTL have attempted to cover all the bases with their newly proposed speeds and prices and I would expect them to receive lots of new customers once the flyers start dropping through the letterboxes, which is, after all, the whole point of the changes.


All the friends I have told about the forthcoming changes are green with envy so the NTL strategy is obviously spot on.


Putting things in perspective, the highest speed offered by NTL costs a mere £9 a week, what else could you buy for that money which would give you so much enjoyment? :scratch:

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It seems that the restrictions are to kerb heavy users that use their NTL BB service to download, they do not take into account/are not designed for Family use.

The restrictions are supposidly for the "avarage user"

If a Family of 4-5 people use the internet & use up all their allocated restricted download limit each month they are branded & fall into The heavy user catagory...

but wait NTL will surely have an answer for this...
yes...

NTL will probably send them an email suggesting that The Family change the way they use their NTL BB service & if they cannot do that strongly suggest The Family should move up a tier.. & what happens if they still exceed their usage.. well its possible that NTL will ask them for even more money ontop of their subscription if they dont pay then little Jimmy (even though his dad/mam paid extra money to a different company to legally download files) wont be able to use M$ XbL & download those extra game levels etc... till the month ends.

Re: [Now Official] More ntl speed changes
 

About 15 Thai hookers :disturbd: lol