Re: smoking and the pub
 

Here are some more frightening statistics. Worryingly though are the facts about teenagers. By allowing smoking in pubs we are hardly sending out preventative messages to our teenagers....We need to get serious about stopping smoking and stopping the habit being formed.

Off the top of my head there are something like 1000 admissions everyday to hospitals in the UK due to smoking related diseases.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I don't think any smoker would be happy, or celebrate, if there was a rise in young people taking up smoking

Re: smoking and the pub
 

These stats only go to back up my previous point about making smoking more and more unattractive sometimes has the opposite effect, especially when in a rebelling mood, i.e many teenagers. Think of the times trying to sneak a quick ciggie at school without being caught for instance.

Another very salient point. While in Europe and the USA the tobacco comapnies are finding it harder and harder to ply their trade, they don't just disappear. Rather they move to developing areas of the world where perhaps the effects are not so widely publicised or the health infrastructures not in place to advise and support. So a perceived benefit here may be having a detrimental effect elsewhere.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

http://www.ash.org.uk/html/factsheets/html/fact03.html

Here are some facts about teens and smoking. You would have hoped that the situation would have improved over the past twenty years or so. It's not changed much though sadly.....

450 children in Great Britain start smoking EVERY DAY.....

Re: smoking and the pub
 

http://www.thesite.org/drinkanddrugs...assive/smoking</H2>

http://www.alcoholconcern.org.uk/servlets/doc/848

Now at first glance the numbers of alcohol-related violent incidents are undeniably higher than the numbers of deaths caused by passive smoking. Alcohol is clearly a problem too. But I think it difficult to compare a violent incident with a terminal illness/death. People who are violent when drunk can often be violent when sobre. Alcohol aggravates violence and whilst this needs to be addressed, it cannot and will not be addressed as easily as the problems of passive smoking.

These figures, although scary, do not detract from the imminent dangers of smoking.

To discuss this further a thread on the dangers of alcohol might be a good idea.
__________________

Yeah! I spoke about this earlier on - I think it makes me one of the more vehement anti-smokers.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I think this arises from the duplicity of the messages that teens are hearing. On one hand they hear adults say you must not smoke you are under 16, it's bad for you. On the other hand they see adults go into pubs, get drunk and smoke their heads off. That makes it attractive.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Maybe not, but I think the ostriches at F.O.R.E.S.T. might well quote such a statistic in order to suggest that a blanket smoking ban would be ineffective.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Excellent point. Kids want to grow up quick, and look mature and cool, and to rebel and that's what often leads to smoking.

The further along this discussion goes, the more I am beginning to hope for a total ban on smoking!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I have to be honest and say that I've always found ex-smokers to be the worst non-smokers around (and don't worry, this isn't a specific attack on you, clairie :) ).

I've always failed to understand how people who did smoke can then be so against smoking, just because they managed / had the willpower to stop. I think it's pretty much been proved that tobacco is ana addictive substance and, as such, it's difficult to just stop. Therefore, to my mind, ex-smokers should appreciate more than anything why people still do smoke.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Indeed. My mother is an exsmoker, and don't I know about it... My dad has never smoked, and although he doesn't like my habit at all, he doesn't **** and moan about smoke in pubs etc like mother does.....

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Nugget............resist........ :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

This is a very good point. I sometimes ponder this myself. But as I said earlier, I am not sure I ever was 100% addicted because I wasn't always a habitual smoker. Furthermore, having reaped the benefits myself of quitting, I never understand why a lot of people don't even want to quit, let alone are unable to do so. I believe also that the smell becomes a lot more repulsive when you quit smoking, because you know you have been putting that stuff in your body. So you want to get as far away from it as possible.

I read an excellent analogy for smoking once in a book on how to give up. It said imagine if you have a spot on your face that won't go away, so your friend lends you some ointment. You use it, and the spot vanishes, but a few days later, another one appears. You use the ointment again, and again it disappears. But later two more appear, then three, and soon your whole face is covered. Every time you use the ointment and they disappear, but come back again worse every time. You realise of course that the ointment is causing the spots, but as it is also the remedy, you don't want to stop using it.

What do you do? Stop using the ointment and put up with a really spot face for a while until it goes for good, or keep on using it and just accept that your skin will keep on getting worse, and that you will only ever have short sharp bouts of relief...

It is my experience that denial often goes hand in hand with smoking. I myself was probably in denial about what smoking was doing to me when I used to smoke, and often smokers don't like to talk about smoking because they do not want to face the thought of what they know they have to do: quit. That's entirely down to them of course. But it makes the concerned friend or family member look like a 'moaner' when actually they really want to look out for their loved one.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It is interesting that the focus is on pubs; the legislation, when its finally enacted (which it will be) will ban smoking in all enclosed public spaces, not just pubs.

Parents choose their parenting style. I wouldn't smoke in front of my kids, but others would. Not something I'd approve of certainly, but in their own home.... Public spaces are different.

And yes people, I do inhale, but I did not have sexual relations with that woman! ;) :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Was that because you were waaaaaaay below her standards?

;) :p:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The problem with statistics is that they only show what the publisher wants them to show.

There is a difference between 114,000 people in the UK are killed by smoking each year and 114,000 smokers die in the UK each year. They may die of illnesses that could have been a result of them smoking or the same illness could have been caused by many other factors. They are automatically put in the "death caused by smoking" group simply because they are smokers. They could just as well have died from the same illness if they had never smoked a cigarette in their life or been anywhere where they encounted passive smoke.

Deaths from passive smoking are even harder to be correctly diagnosed. They die prematurely from an illness that could have been smoking related but could just as easily be nothing to do with smoking. A non-smoking barman dies from lung cancer so it must be because of the effects of passive smoking. Why must it?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Oh, how I wish I could date a woman who had standards. Any standards. :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It's a good point. But smoking has been being investigated for such a long time now, I think we have to give the experts a bit of credit. What benefit would be gained from making smoking out to be more dangerous to be than it actually is, especially when as has been mentioned, so much tax is spent on cigarettes in the UK. Perhaps the statistics that best illustrate the risks of smoking would be the numbers of smokers who develop certain illnesses compared to the non-smokers.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I've got standards.

You just have to have a pulse... ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

That's andy stuffed then :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I meant a woman with an extensive collection of flags. (cue Nug rude-ities re flagpoles!)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Dunno what you mean :angel:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ha! Can't think of one eh?! :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

do you expect him to do pennants? ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well, if I used some of the gags that I've got for that one, I'd definitely find myself facing a ban ... errr

Re: smoking and the pub
 

and that would turn you into a cry baby bunting, no doubt ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Wow, the Nug has been out-nugged!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well, what andy does in his own home is entirely his business - however, it does beg the question of what he's inhaling :naughty: :PP:
__________________

DAMMIT! I've been hoist by my own petard :p:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Salbutamol. What else?
__________________



Ah, too little, too late. How sad :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

sorry, will stop now. :)

looking back, I have to agree that ex smokers tend to be more evangelical than people who have never smoked. It is something I have tried hard not to do, since giving up.

Regarding this new legislation, my personal view is that the establishment should be able to choose what it will allow on the premises, but if smoking is allowed they should have to conform to some kind of standard regarding ventilation & warning notices.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

That's because ex-smokers have far more experience of the downsides of smoking, we've had the chest infections, stinking clothes, watched our money go up in flames, listened to endless whining from non-smokers and put ourselves through at least a couple of months of hell by stopping smoking, I'd say we've more of a right to bitch than someone who's never smoked.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You've no right to bitch BECAUSE you smoked.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

:LOL: I said I had tried hard, not that I succeeded :D

- it was a very scarey chest infection that finally convinced me, but it is the other things, like the smell and the amount of dust & general filth, that I notice more than anything, has improved. To an extent the improvement in my lungs has almost been taken for granted :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Not true, you can buy alcohol from the age of 16 if you by a meal,basket of chips in some pubs.

A child from the age of 5 (five!) can drink alcohol at home with their parents consent.

Alcohol has an allowance guideline, not a safe level.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

On what grounds do you make that claim? I was younger and more stupid, and therefore I smoked. Now I realise the error my my ways, have given up, and become anti-smoking.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

TBH, I thinks it's a little unfair to infer that smokers are 'more stupid' than non-smokers.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'm not saying they are. I am saying that was the reason I smoked - because I was young and stupid. I didn't think through the consequences of my actions.

I am not inferring smokers are more stupid than non-smokers in general.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yes evangalism is something to be wary of.I was a lot like that when I lost 6 stones and made my sister cry trying to persuade her to lose weight...What a b*tch I was... :(

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Hardly changes the point I was making though, does it? Let's not be pedantic. :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Having said that, you're probably right ;)

IMO, a lot of people give up smoking because of peer pressure - I started when I was at college, but it was mostly because everyone else smoked. Unfortunately, I then found that it's rather a hard habit to break (see, I obviously should have listened to more Chicago when I was a kid :D ).

As for the actual 'ban', I have to admit that I don't see why a total ban should be necessary - as has been said quite a few times, it should, in my opinion, be down to the landlord of the pub / club / whatever.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'd stop all this "ban" talk if I were you.. the Team have itchy fingers and burning ears ;) :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ah yes, but the burning ears are because the smokers have all of the lighters ;) :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Thin b*tch though :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Say's who? You? The poor oppressed one that deliberately risks other people's health? I reserve my right to bitch whenever I see fit (much as you seem to have done)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Girls! Put those handbags down. Can't we agree you're both b*tches? ;) :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

To be completely fair I do agree with what you say Bifta in that an ex-smoker does have a right to complain about smoking, and even perhaps has more insight than a non-smoker, but I would say that most smokers do not deliberately harm other people with their smoke, more that carelessness and lack of consideration often leads to the harm of others as a side-effect.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I know I am. An uber one at that ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You're not that bad really....:angel:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yes she is ;)

:D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ssshhh! Don't tell everyone! ;) :kiss:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I sense a poll coming on.... :angel:

Anyone ever work out what it is about smoking which makes many people act as if they're against a 'choice' solution whereas in many other aspects of life they're happy to go along with a more democratic approach?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well I have no problem with your choice to smoke, it's the choice that others aren't currently given not to inhale your smoke in public - not private - places. Heck, puff away like a Vatican chimney come Pope time, but don't pass on your carcinogens to others. I'll make it more emotive now - fink of da little, wee children. How can they get comfortably blitzed on WKds in that fug of yours? ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Kids? If I can guarantee that it would mean there wasn't a crowd of 16 year olds at the bar when I wanted a pint, I'd happily never look at a ciggy again :)

EDIT: Well, I say happily - I'd probably still grumble about the good old days when you could smoke anywhere you wanted ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'm assuming that's generic, seeing as not a single cigarette has ever passed these lips :)

</smug>

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It's niccotine withdrawal or even the threat of withdrawal that is the problem, as it is one of the most instantly addictive substances known.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Have you been smoking through your nose again Russ?

:D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ahh sh'up iw.

Actually I can imagine the replies had I gone with my initial choice of wording which subtituted 'cigarette' for 'fag' :spin:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

LOL.... The only person on here who would know is Neil!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

So can I, and I'm gutted that you didn't :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It's difficult to talk about smoking without at least one Bill Hicks quote:

"Obnoxious , self-righteous, whining little ****s. My biggest fear is that if I quit smoking, I'll become one of you...Don't take that wrong. I have something to tell you non-smokers that I know for a fact that you don't know, and I feel it's my duty to pass on information at all times. Ready?.......Non-smokers die every day...Enjoy your evening. See, I know that you entertain this eternal life fantasy because you've chosen not to smoke, but let me be the 1st to POP that bubble and bring you hurtling back to reality....You're dead too." ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Most people seem to have managed it on here.....

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I didn't because I wasn't aware of his 'work'. I am now though! :rofl: Brilliant. That's one to be memorised. :tu:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It's percieved attitudes like that of Hicks (I want so I'll have) which builds up resentment - in any case yes I know non-smokers die every day but if someone around me is engaging in some activity which encourages it then.....I'm likely to feel slightly different then :angel:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Hey! It's not fair you've got the late, great Bill Hicks on your side. Mind you. you've got Leary too ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I thought it was time to roll out the big guns ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Wot about the fat ones? That'll be Ken Clarke :p:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

My lips are sealed. :disturbd:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Don't forget;

Humphrey Bogart
Walt Disney
Sammy Davis Jr.
Clark Gable
Carl Wilson

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But, if you KNOW that you could be damaging your friends health by (for example) smoking in front of them in the pub yet you continue to do it, that's more than just carelessness or a lack of consideration, that's a deliberate "I don't give a toss about your health" attitude

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well, that's backfired then. ;) .

Last ditched attempt Hicks quote:
"I smoke. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your ****in' mouth."

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'll only shut my "****in mouth" when I can do nothing about whatever it is which affecting my health.

Sounds like a charming bloke, this Hicks.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Hicks was brilliant. Foul-mouthed, in yer face, opinionated brilliance.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yeah...that'll win reasoned debates won't it....

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well, I'm actually in the ban public smoking lobby, but I loved Bill Hicks. And his act was highly politicised and effective in a preaching to the converted kind of way.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'm sure there are better ways to gain the respect of those who oppose you.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Lighten up Russ. He was a comic. The act needs to be seen rather than read IMO as well.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It's just if he's held in such apparent high esteem by non-smokers for just being offensive, I really don't see the appeal.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

No, noooo. Please listen or watch some of Hick's performances. He was more than simply offensive. There was a savage truth and intelligence to much of what he was saying, which revealed many of the world's contradictions, and incidentally still resonate today. In the words of John Cleese he was, "savage, brilliant, funny, tremendously intelligent", and for me sadly missed :( . To fully appreciate, his work needs to be viewed in the context of his performance.

EDIT: But of course, like everything he was not to everyones taste.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Hmmm, I'll bet.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I thought that was crack cocaine ?
Mind you, with the price of ciggys what they are it will soon be cheaper to become a crackhead and have social workers calling round to make sure you have enough methadone and spliff for the weekend, all for free on the NHS.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Will a taxi be deemed to be a public place?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Most taxis are non-smoking anyway, or they are where I live.
I do know what you're saying, and as I am sure you can see from the rest of my posts I am on your side! I just mean I think it's more of a case of 'It won't happen to me, or those I am with, or at least it probably won't and I am willing to take that risk for myself, and on behalf of others' with smokers, than 'I want to hurt people'.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Just to even things up a bit for the non-smokers out there, here's another Bill Hicks quote... "Here is my final point. About drugs, about alcohol, about pornography and smoking and everything else. What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I f*ck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?"

Trouble is that smoking in public does harm other human beings :(

FWIW, I think the decision should be up to the landlord/owner. I don't like the Government making decisions about what I can and can not do - I like having the freedom to make my own choices. However, I would like to see the sort of ventilation units that you get in the smoking areas at airports nowadays.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Nowt like an open mind, and that was....... (boom-boom!) :D

Slack is right though, you need to see before you judge. Hicks was a genius. (liked to kill people with his fags though - boom-boom!)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

And Bill Hicks certainly wasn't scared of airing his thoughts on religion either ;)

Oops, this thread is being dragged kicking and screaming off topic

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It's actually picked up since it did. ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4387700.stm

Seems we are going to have to wait a while for the total ban, but it would well happen.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Donning my cynical hat, does it not seem somewhat strange that a large number of MP's belong to "private members" clubs ?
Pull the ladder up Jack, we're OK.

Or should that read "Pass the Port and large Havana Cecil, we've done our duty and voted for the government"

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Told ya banning smoking was the thin end of the wedge.*


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4389598.stm


* ok, I didn't

Re: smoking and the pub
 

So now because of the stupidly reckless amongst us that over indulge with booze at every opportunity, those of us who behave around alcohol are to be penalised...Oh goody it's for the public good. :rolleyes:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ban the deadly drug!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Oh the hypocrisy, the hypocrisy: http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/pol...icle323342.ece

Just read a couple of articles in today's IoS that are relevant to this discussion.
Firstly, David Hockney suggests that, "we have become so scared of dying that we are forgetting to how to live". Wise words indeed.

Secondly, Oliver James says, "Fully three-quarters of people with some history of depression become depressed after they quit, compared with only 30 percent pf people with no such history. Overall, 80 per cent of smokers use it as a drug of solace to self-medicate emotional problems. This evidence has major implications for the debate about smoking in public places. Depressed people tend to agree with John-Paul Sartre that "hell is other people". They find socialising difficult, easily feel irritated and ashamed, worried that they appear ugly or stupid. To enjoy company, to ease thier negative, paranoid ideas, they really do need to smoke. By denying smokers the right to do so when socialising, the Government would be worsening the social isolation of the already isolated one-fifth of the population who are depressed smokers for no medical gain and purely puritanical reasons."
And, "The government, all of us need to understand a simple point: childhood maltreatment is the main cause of depression, which is the main cause of both smoking and drinking. Therapy, not moralising, is the solution."

Certainly worth thinking about in the seemingly emotive issue of smoking in public places.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Remember you saw it here first ! (post number 487)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Thing is, the brain is known to reduced production of its own antidepressants when it starts to get a regular supply of nicotine. It's therefore not surprising that people can suffer depression in numbers after quitting - the nicotine is gone, and the brain has given up on its own production so there's nothing to plug the gap.

The long-term aim of a policy like this is to reduce the number of people who take up smoking in the first place. If that happens, the number of people with brains deficient in natural antidepressant (someone tell me what its called!) would reduce.

And besides, if tobacco is recognised as a form of medication for dealing with depression ... given the choice, were I to find myself in the position of being clinically depressed, I would hope that my psychiatrist might prescribe me some medication with slightly less fatal side effects than tobacco. Somehow, were tobacco discovered tomorrow and put forward as a drug for treating depression, I couldn't see NICE recommending it being provided on the NHS. :erm:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Serotonin. I believe Brazil nuts are good for the head; so quitters, get down the nut counter (magnesium and zinc supps too)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Or get nuts before you go nuts ... I'll get me coat. :disturbd:

Further to the point I was making above, there are very good reasons why cannabis has not been legalised despite the obvious pain-killing benefits for peope with conditions like MS. It's because as well as the beneficial chemicals, it also contains some pretty unpleasant ones. Several studies are underway to try to isolate and replicate the beneficial chemicals and produce something your GP can prescribe without killing you.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Actually, I think you'll find that nicotine actually stimulates production of the pleasure hormones dopamine and serotonin, hence the anti-depressant effect. Remember the increased rate of depression in quitters was pronounced in individuals who already had a history of depression. Therefore James' assertion that we need to look at the causes of depression in the first place before causing further social isolation by banning smoking in public places, for me is a very pertinant point. I certainly don't think that he is suggesting that smoking should be prescribed as a form of medication but rather looking at the evidence of what is actually happening and suggesting one effect of the the Government's policy.

BTW you failed to comment on the Government's hypocrisy ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Which particular piece of Governmental hypocrisy is that? :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Apologies, I appreciate that there is so much, but in particular http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/pol...icle323342.ece :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Actually ... I think you'll find I'm not wrong about serotonin ... now I know what it's called, I've been Googling:

http://www.tgorski.com/Prevention/Pr...g%20020109.htm

The article is a discussion on smoking while pregnant, but paragraph H is relevant:



;)

__________________

I think it's outrageous. The problem is bigger than smoking though, the fact that the place is a Royal palace exempts it from a worrying amount of legislation. IIRC someone recently failed in an attempt to sue over a workplace accident there because it's exempt from health and safety legislation due to its status. This, in the 21st century, is just ridiculous.

Now where's that monarchy thread .... :D
__________________

Some more research on the serotonin-killing effects of smoking:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I stand corrected (and haven't the time to search for conflicting research ;)), although the dopamine effect is accurate, which only goes to demonstrate that the relationship between nicotine-depression is complex.
Smoking, as I have discussed, is an important way of coping with everyday life and social relationships, especially when suffering from depression. Therefore it is not something that we can easily gloss over with puritanical policies based on unsound evidence.