Cable Forum - Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Let me just add a little extra info to clarify matters. The Layer 7 Switch performing the Deep Packet Inspection looks for a cookie, whether you have a cookie or not, it forwards the packets to the webwise system, which will then attempt to set a cookie. If it is unable to set a webwise cookie it assumes it is blocked and blacklists the IP for about 6 minutes if I remember correctly (I would need to check on the time the IP stays blacklisted).

But regardless of whether a cookie is present or not, the first point in the system (the DPI switch) is going to forward everything to webwise and if webwise is blocked, that means you can't go anywhere.

Alexander Hanff[/QUOTE]

Well I've been monitoring BT for over 12 months, although I didn't know it was Phorm behind it I knew the BT Service was doing strange things!

"How many infinite loops can the Webwise system itself take if it does not find a cookie which it may be depending on?", is also maybe a question to ask. This however depends on the way the router system is set up!

But I'll leave it there & wait to see by trial & error, if they do a consistent test instead of random network testing.

AlexanderHanff

28-05-2008 18:06

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SelfProtection (Post 34561709)

"How many infinite loops can the Webwise system itself take if it does not find a cookie which it may be depending on?"

Not a question that I am aware has been asked yet. But according to Kent it will "only" effect about 1% of users (a figure we believe was just plucked out of thin air).

Alexander Hanff

popper

28-05-2008 18:08

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Mick ,stick Alexanders parody, or someone write a few new news reports and pass them to Mick, the CF News page is there to pass the news, the good writers here should take advantage of that fact.

its strange that this thread is the fully informed Phorm DPI thread to read ,but we dont get any news stories written up and placed on the CF news page (other than the few from Mick and Alexander),and breaking here given all the newest data we have gets put in the thread.

anything put on the CableForum news page gets taken up almost instantly on the world wires, so it makes sense to put them there first...?

AlexanderHanff

28-05-2008 18:10

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

I will write a news story tonight when family stuff has been dealt with.

Alexander Hanff

mark777

28-05-2008 18:14

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 34561698)

"There are no further updates at this stage - we are still investigating the technology, however we have not made a decision on deployment at this stage."

Perhaps in the lull before the storm, we should do something to help them to come to a decision?

Did anyone ever hear anything back from Richard Branson for example?

I'm going to have a rummage around back in the thread and bring forward the various contact details that were found, into one post. We could have another go. When the pressure has been increased on VM, it did seem to eventually provoke a reaction.

davews

28-05-2008 18:20

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Jones (Post 34561514)

I'm normally against things like viral marketing email campaigns (I don't mean real virus you understand) but I'm tempted in this situation. We've all got address books with contacts' btinternet, talktalk and VM addresses in them - could we do some viral email anti-phorm marketing? (doing it responsibly using Bcc field to safeguard privacy of data).

The email would need to have a short snappy title - a short explanatory teaser paragraph, a series of key page links like inphormation.org (I suggest it DOESN'T send people to forums - forums scare your average user! I know how hard it is to promote forum use to "ordinary" people!) - and a short list (like Kursks list but shorter and made simpler) of things that people can do really easily with minimum effort, all involving a short email to send to someon and an encouragement for them to send a similar mail to anyone they have in their address book with a BT/VM/TalkTalk address (using Bcc for round robins)

BT Retail email addresses are either ATbtinternet.com or ATbtopenworld.com

What are the ones for TalkTalk and VM?

Remember - here you can say and do what you like subject to a few "not being rude" rules. The mission over at BT is more to try and "catch" uninphormed customers and get their attention. And that ain't easy!

If all the BT customers using C/F (but with access to BT Beta forums) would like to PM me, I'd be interested in discussing strategy.

The problem is that you cannot reach all, or anywhere near all, bt customers by mailing to @btinternet addresses. Many (like me) use a domain address in emails and you have no way of knowing who they are with. Perhaps if you are just trying to reach the non computer savy it would work, which are the sort of people who wouldn't have domains.

But I am not really in favour with this idea either. In this day of spam it would be fairly hard to make it not look like spam (though the click on anything brigade might still read it...). The choice of words would need to be very clearly worked out, and of course they would have to be sent blind carbon copy (BCC) so as to keep addresses invisible.

Personally my address book is fairly lightly populated as I don't add all and sundry to it. It is also largely made up of fairly technical people, as that is how I use the internet, and many of those have domains. I did consider posting to mailing lists I subscribe to but in most of those off topic postings are frowned on. So it has been no more than a quick mention, which got no response.

If it gets front page coverage in the Sun and lead story in the BBC news then people will notice. But I can't see that really happening.

Dephormation

28-05-2008 18:23

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by popper (Post 34561652)

perhaps a few VERY cleverly worded FOI requests to the ICO asking for full discloser of all documents past regarding this "close contact" including its operational procedures they will take and all other ICO plans to track this most important review covering not just BT but potentially 70% plus of the whole UK BB installed base and every single person using that connection.

Already in hand ;)

I sent it by snail mail (the ICO having answered not one single online query or email I've sent to them concerning Phorm).

But don't let that stop you. The more ICO's lack of action is exposed the better.

The Information Commissioner is Richard Thomas (until June 2009, when I sincerely hope someone else will take the job instead).

Hard to believe it is the same Richard Thomas who gave this interview.

Richard Thomas,
The Information Commissioner's Office,
Wycliffe House,
Water Lane,
Wilmslow,
Cheshire,
SK9 5AF

Pete

SMHarman

28-05-2008 18:42

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark777 (Post 34561212)

@ Portly_Giraffe

How about "Internet Tapping", although I think "Data Pimping" is the accepted form, but perhaps not in polite circles?

As Kent holds nearly 2 million shares, he lost nearly Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£3 million in that 10 minutes! He should pick his investments more wisely.

Come on, admit it, were you never tempted to flick chewed up bits of paper at the back of his neck?:D

Net Tap, like wire tap but for the Net, everyone understands what a wire tap is and that you need to get authorisation for one so can link to similar assumptions for a Net Tap, except that no, your ISP is allowing someone to Net Tap your entire internet experience.

---------- Post added at 13:42 ---------- Previous post was at 13:34 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by NTLVictim (Post 34561457)

Is it the "Shorters" that do that?:dunce:

I was about to say they need to locate delivery stock to short but it is a LSE AIM stock so no locate required.

icsys

28-05-2008 18:43

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by davews (Post 34561727)

If it gets front page coverage in the Sun and lead story in the BBC news then people will notice. But I can't see that really happening.

Perhaps if the daily tabloids get enough e-mails regarding the phorm-storm they might just consider it worth some ink and column space
The Sun The Star The Mirror The Express The Telegraph
The Daily Mail has covered some of the Phorm story already.

Even if some of them are considering the OIX, if they get enough negative e-mails they may follow The Guardian and decide it's not worth it.
Just a thought?

SMHarman

28-05-2008 18:48

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff (Post 34561716)

Not a question that I am aware has been asked yet. But according to Kent it will "only" effect about 1% of users (a figure we believe was just plucked out of thin air).

Alexander Hanff

The 1% that opt out as 99% will be opting in by default, la la la la, la la la la, Ertugrul world, thats Ertugrul world....

AlexanderHanff

28-05-2008 18:52

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMHarman (Post 34561741)

The 1% that opt out as 99% will be opting in by default, la la la la, la la la la, Ertugrul world, thats Ertugrul world....

Yeah that is why we believe the figure was plucked out of thin air on the spot, because I and others certainly don't believe that 99% of 70% of the Broadband market are going to be happy with opting in to this technology.

Maybe, if we use historical data on advertising click throughs, he will get 10% of 1% of 70%

If he is lucky he might even make it to 1% of 70%

But 99%? I have a hat and will eat it...

Alexander Hanff

bonzoe

28-05-2008 18:55

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff (Post 34561666)

But regardless of whether a cookie is present or not, the first point in the system (the DPI switch) is going to forward everything to webwise and if webwise is blocked, that means you can't go anywhere.

Alexander Hanff

The technicalities of this are beyond me, but if there is a problem with the webwise domain (not blocked at firewall level) does this mean that all surfing will cease?

Is the webwise domain on the ISP premises or off site, can the link go down?

AlexanderHanff

28-05-2008 18:58

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

http://www.mobileshop.com/blog/edito...-european-law/

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 18:58 ---------- Previous post was at 18:56 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by bonzoe (Post 34561750)

If the webwise system falls over or dns falls over, yes the entire system breaks and you can't access the web. This is one of the issues Dr Clayton discussed when talking about attacks which poison the DNS servers.

Alexander Hanff

bonzoe

28-05-2008 18:59

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff (Post 34561752)

[url]

If the webwise system falls over or dns falls over, yes the entire system breaks and you can't access the web. This is one of the issues Dr Clayton discussed when talking about attacks which poison the DNS servers.

Alexander Hanff

Nasty.

Another good reason for ISPs to stay clear.

serial

28-05-2008 19:03

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Over on BadPhorm a while back user HowardR posted from his BT source that they would win because:

"An argument -- any argument -- is won when a simple question elicits a simple answer, not when a mass of technicalities covering past, present and future are all dredged up. Either the answer is so good, the debate ends there and then, or it's so poor, the questioner's position is strengthened to the point of being uncontestable."

So I decided to try to make a page, simple for the layman, yet still accurate. I came up with:

http://www.DoNotTrustWebwise.org/

Thanks to Madslug for all the help and also Deph Pete.

The wording probably needs to be made simpler so any help/comments/opinions are very welcome.

It would be helpful to keep them in the thread here:
http://badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugins/f....php?6158.last

Or PM me or comment here etc.

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