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-   -   Britain outside the EU (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33709659)

Sephiroth 12-02-2023 17:25
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Well, that's brought out a few people with blocked noses, some pretending not to understand the fundamentals of British culture.


---------- Post added at 16:25 ---------- Previous post was at 16:01 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36145772)
I don't think I'm "thick" as you put it. The question I ask is the essential one here as it sets the context from which the complainant (you) is defining their world view.

You are equating "not adopting British culture" as just doing anything you object to. These people, from a myriad of countries, have their own cultural identities, literature, democracy, sense of humour, sense of history and tolerance, all of which are perfectly possible to be melded into ours. I think what you mean by "British culture" is some artificial Anglo-Saxon construct where "whiteness", being Christian, etc. is the (false) measure of conformity.

Remember that we invaded the lands where the majority of the people you object to come from, we subjugated them, stole their wealth and imposed our "British culture" on them. It is poetic karma that the position is now reversed.

Another thing to remember is the "British culture ... that has been built up over the centuries" is a direct result of waves of immigration, each, in turn, imposing its own cultural identity on the resident population.
Quote:
You are equating "not adopting British culture" as just doing anything you object to. These people, from a myriad of countries, have their own cultural identities, literature, democracy, sense of humour, sense of history and tolerance, all of which are perfectly possible to be melded into ours. I think what you mean by "British culture" is some artificial Anglo-Saxon construct where "whiteness", being Christian, etc. is the (false) measure of conformity.

Wrong. Chinese: Yes. Indian: Yes. EU: Yes. Oz/NZ/Canada: Yes. And thereafter it becomes murky.

On your "whiteness" point, you prove how far your head is poked inmto the sand. Diversity officers and policies ensure that it's not good nes to be white these days - after hundreds of years of Britain and the evolution of British culture.


Remember that we invaded the lands where the majority of the people you object to come from, we subjugated them, stole their wealth and imposed our "British culture" on them. It is poetic karma that the position is now reversed.


More tripe. Every culture has done that - pillaging, stealing, enslaving etc. Why is it just Britain that is the villain? We left those countries with infrastructure, administration and justice systems. Now they are. in many cases, corrupt, intolerant, crime ridden - which is nothing to do with us and entirely down to their own cultures.

Another thing to remember is the "British culture ... that has been built up over the centuries" is a direct result of waves of immigration, each, in turn, imposing its own cultural identity on the resident population.


British culture has indeed been influenced to a degree by immigration. Let's go through it: Jews escaping from pogroms - a benign influence but not largely adopted in cultural terms at large. Indians - most of them are here because when Africa turfed them out and India wouldn't accept them, we opened our doors and they have made their successful mark here.. But they haven't influenced British culture. Ditto the Chinese who are a very distinct culture that does not interact with British culture. Somalis - these immigrants bring knife culture to the UK and mix that with with their religion. Pakistanis also have no business being here and, to the best of my knowledge, the no-go areas or the areas they dominate are completely incongruent with British culture. Albanians - they have no business being here and there's no doubt about what they get up to.

Hugh 12-02-2023 17:40
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...rothers-league

Quote:
As far back as 1902, Cosmo Lang, bishop of Stepney, east London, accused immigrants of “swamping whole areas once populated by English people”.
Quote:
The Eastern Post and City Chronicle enthusiastically reported BBL activities and demanded that the government end this “foreign flood which has submerged our native population of East London”.
Quote:
So who were these feared immigrants? Mainly pauperised east European Jews fleeing economic discrimination, religious persecution and, from 1881, pogroms enacted by the mob but encouraged by the tsarist Russian authorities.
Quote:
Another wrote: “It made my blood boil” to see “swarthy, dirty foreigners attempting to put down our right to free speech.” A “Disgusted East Londoner” complained that many houses locally were “occupied by foreigners who, with their children, speak nothing but Yiddish”. He anticipated a time “when we English people dare not hold a meeting of our own”.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose…

Sephiroth 12-02-2023 17:59
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36145800)
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...rothers-league









Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose…
Far from it. Compatible culture, mate.

Hugh 12-02-2023 18:06
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36145802)
Far from it. Compatible culture, mate.
The information posted shows that, at the time, this was not seen to be the case…

The rhetoric at the time almost exactly mirrors what you are posting in this thread…

Sephiroth 12-02-2023 19:33
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36145808)
The information posted shows that, at the time, this was not seen to be the case…

The rhetoric at the time almost exactly mirrors what you are posting in this thread…
... and then there's the out-turn. Nothing of those times actually involved a culture that would have imperilled British Culture. It was the same with the East African Indians.

1andrew1 12-02-2023 23:59
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Meanwhile back to the topic of Britain outside the EU. This is an interesting development.

Quote:
Revealed: secret cross-party summit held to confront failings of Brexit

An extraordinary cross-party summit bringing together leading leavers and remainers – including Michael Gove and senior members of Keir Starmer’s shadow cabinet – has been held in high secrecy to address the failings of Brexit and how to remedy them in the national interest, the Observer can reveal.

The two-day gathering of some of the country’s most senior Labour and Tory politicians from both sides of the Brexit debate, together with diplomats, defence experts and the heads of some of the biggest businesses and banks, was held at the historic Ditchley Park retreat in Oxfordshire on Thursday afternoon and evening, and on Friday.

The highly unusual cross-party nature of the gathering of Brexit opponents – and the seniority of those who agreed to attend – reflects a growing acceptance among politicians in the two main parties, as well as business leaders and civil servants, that Brexit in its current form is damaging the UK economy and reducing its strategic influence in the world.

Concern is growing at the top of the Labour party that it poses a real threat to the success of any future Labour government unless problems such as increased trade friction can be addressed.

The Office for Budget Responsibility has predicted that, over the 15 years from 2016, Brexit will reduce the UK’s GDP per capita by 4%.

In effect calling for a cross-party consensus on Brexit, the summit papers referred to the need to move on from “the current mix of antagonism and nostalgia to excitement about what the future could bring for the UK and for Europe”. They also said that finding solutions was all the more urgent because of “global unrest, supply chain fragility and inflation”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...droidApp_Other

Sephiroth 13-02-2023 00:05
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
If true, good. Make Brexit work.

TheDaddy 13-02-2023 01:57
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36145837)
If true, good. Make Brexit work.
It's not going to work, aside from some tidying up around the peripheries this is it, suck it up, it's what we voted for

1andrew1 13-02-2023 18:58
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
More intrigue!
Quote:
Sunak was unaware of Gove attendance at Brexit discussion, No 10 says

Spokesperson stops short of criticising minister, while Tory source dismisses David Frost ‘plot’ claim as ‘pathetic’

Rishi Sunak was unaware of Michael Gove’s attendance at a private meeting of prominent former leave and remain campaigners to discuss Brexit, No 10 has said.

Sunak’s spokesperson suggested the prime minister had first become aware of Gove’s attendance at the two-day summit when he read about it in the Observer.

Government sources said there was some irritation that there was no warning about Gove’s attendance, because of the delicate party management involved during talks on the Northern Irish protocol. One said there were “eyebrows raised” in No 10, but said it was unlikely Sunak would raise it personally with the cabinet minister.

One senior Conservative party source who attended the summit dismissed Frost’s portrayal of the conference as a “secret plot” to “unravel” Brexit as “rather pathetic”.

“It is an overreach and a misunderstanding of what the conference was about, which was about the future of UK and EU relations, which is a perfectly sensible subject to discuss,” the attender said.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...t-unravel-deal

ianch99 13-02-2023 23:42
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36145889)
Rats in a sack ..

Hugh 14-02-2023 21:56
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
From the Telegraph

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www....ock-comes-end/

Quote:
A new Brexit deal is expected to be announced in the next fortnight after the UK watered down its hardline resistance to European judges ruling on issues in Northern Ireland.

Sources close to the talks have indicated to The Telegraph that an agreement to end the row over the Northern Ireland Protocol is set to be revealed within two weeks.

Rishi Sunak, the Prime Minister, is due to speak to some European leaders later this week, with next week initially pencilled in by UK negotiators as the date for announcement.

The broad shape of the deal has now become clear, according to two sources from the European Union and two in the UK, with final sign-off still to come from Number 10.

Under the plan, goods travelling from the mainland UK destined only for Northern Ireland will not face physical customs checks thanks to a new system of “red” and “green” lanes.

One of the most sensitive areas of agreement, about the exact role of the European Court of Justice (ECJ) in Northern Ireland, is likely to be presented differently by the EU and UK.

Sources in Brussels believe the agreement will show that the ECJ will be the ultimate arbiter of disputes about EU law that emerge from Northern Ireland.

UK sources close to the deal are insisting that the vast majority of legal clashes about trade in Northern Ireland will not involve the ECJ, playing up the role of the province's own judges.

But the UK Government is no longer insisting that the ECJ must not be the ultimate arbiter on EU law issues in Northern Ireland. That had been the UK position under Liz Truss and for much of Boris Johnson's premiership.

New language stressing that the ECJ will only be used as a court of last resort is expected in a joint EU-UK statement when the deal is announced, according to multiple UK and EU sources.

There is also a belief among UK government figures familiar with negotiations that the deal would mean Downing Street effectively drops the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, which is still going through Parliament

1andrew1 14-02-2023 22:15
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36145987)
That's good news.

Sephiroth 14-02-2023 22:34
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36145991)
That's good news.
Yes. That's on the basis that we are where we are. We should have simply dropped out of the EU - but we would have had no competent government to develop from there. Damn.

1andrew1 15-02-2023 00:35
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36145994)
Yes. That's on the basis that we are where we are. We should have simply dropped out of the EU - but we would have had no competent government to develop from there. Damn.
Unlike the competent governments we have subsequently had. :D

Hugh 19-02-2023 11:19
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64693922

Quote:
Boris Johnson has urged Rishi Sunak not to abandon legislation he introduced on how Northern Ireland's post-Brexit trade will work in the long-term.

The Northern Ireland Protocol Bill was set in motion when Mr Johnson was PM, but Mr Sunak has been meeting EU leaders to agree a new deal.

Since 2021, certain trade checks cover some goods crossing the Irish Sea.

A source close to Mr Johnson said the former PM thought it would be a "great mistake" to move away from his plan.
So Johnson doesn’t want the current PM to change something (the NI Protocol Bill) that Johnson proposed, which was proposed by Johnson to change something that Johnson had originally proposed and got through Parliament (the NI Protocol as part of the Withdrawal Agreement).

1andrew1 19-02-2023 11:27
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36146291)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64693922

So Johnson doesn’t want the current PM to change something (the NI Protocol Bill) that Johnson proposed, which was proposed by Johnson to change something that Johnson had originally proposed and got through Parliament (the NI Protocol as part of the Withdrawal Agreement).
Yup. :D

Johnson comes across as being jealous of Sunak being PM.

I suspect he is just trying to make things difficult for Sunak; I don't think Johnson has any strong political views on the matter.

Hugh 19-02-2023 11:31
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36146292)
Yup. :D

Johnson comes across as being jealous of Sunak being PM.

I suspect he is just trying to make things difficult for Sunak; I don't think Johnson has any strong political views on the matter.
As someone on Twitter put it

Quote:
Boris Johnson is the least reliable character in British politics, but you could set your watch by his self interest.
h/t @KeithAdamTaylor

richard-john56 19-02-2023 15:58
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Boris Johnson is the least reliable character in British politics, but you could set your watch by his SELF-DESTRUCTION.

1andrew1 20-02-2023 15:06
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Grow up and compromise on Brexit, hardline Tory MPs warned

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak is facing a backlash from “ultras” in his own party and unionists as he battles to win support for a compromise on the Northern Ireland Protocol.

But as MPs returned to Westminster after half term recess, moderate Conservatives urged “ideologues” not to threaten the deal.

Sir Bob Neill, chairman of the Commons justice committee, said: “What we need is pragmatism not dogmatism.

“It’s ridiculous to take purist points when you have got serious issues about people’s businesses, livelihoods and security. People have to grow up and compromise.”

With the UK facing recession this year and Bank of England chief Jonathan Haskel warning last week that Britain has suffered a loss of business investment since the 2016 referendum worth £29bn, the former minister Stephen Hammond added: “The PM is in process of finalising a deal that will serve the whole of the UK’s interests.

“A small group of ideologues must not threaten a deal which is in the interests of NI businesses and people.”
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsl...d25f96c27089e5

TheDaddy 20-02-2023 15:14
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36146393)
Maybe the deal should be put before a referendum, lets see if they're ideologues or if they're acting on behalf of the people because I don't think this deal is what we voted for

Sephiroth 20-02-2023 15:16
Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You all know that I'm a strong believer in our sovereignty over the EU.

Given the NI is in the EU Single Market, worrying about the ECJ writ running on a lorry travelling between Belfast and Dublin is what the DUP case boils down to.

It's perverse that Boris signed the NI Protocol and now insists that the NI Protocol Bill must remain in Parliament!


Hugh 20-02-2023 17:51
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Perhaps, and let me just put it out there as a remote possibility, he was lying…

I know, I know, given his past record for absolute fidelity in what he says and does, it’s extremely unlikely, but it is within the realms of probability…

ianch99 21-02-2023 11:43
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Remember when the Leave cartel showcased stars of "Big Business" to declare how wonderful leaving the EU is and how the UK will prosper alone?

Well, one of these luminaries, Jim Ratcliffe, the UK's richest person first moves to tax-free Monaco to save him £4bn in tax payments. He also said:

Quote:
After the referendum, he urged the government to adopt a tough approach to negotiations with the EU, saying: “We must listen, we must be unwaveringly polite and retain our charm. But there is no room for weakness or crumpling at 3am when the going gets tough and most points are won or lost.”

Ratcliffe said the EU needed access to the UK’s market as much as Britain needed access to the EU’s. “Never forget that we have a decent set of cards,” he said, adding: “Mercedes is not going to stop selling cars in the UK. And London is one of the two key financial centres, and that isn’t going to change.”
Guess what is now happening in the real, failed Brexit, world:

Sir Jim Ratcliffe confirms new vehicle to be made in France

Quote:
Billionaire Sir Jim Ratcliffe, a Leave campaigner in the run-up to the 2016 Brexit referendum, has confirmed a new 4x4 vehicle will be built in France.

It ends hopes his Grenadier off-roader, based on the original Land Rover, would be made at a new plant in Wales.

Those plans were put on hold in July while Mr Ratcliffe's Ineos Automotive negotiated buying Mercedes-Benz's Hambach site, in Moselle.

He said on Tuesday that Hambach offered a "unique opportunity".

Mr Ratcliffe, who built his fortune heading the chemicals company Ineos, added that Hambach was "a modern automotive manufacturing facility with a world-class workforce".

"Ineos Automotive set out a vision to build the world's best utilitarian 4x4, and at our new home in Hambach, we will do just that," he said.

When plans to build the vehicle at Bridgend, south Wales, were first announced, Mr Ratcliffe said it was "a significant expression of confidence in British manufacturing".

It was hoped the factory would create up to 500 jobs, producing about 25,000 Grenadiers a year, once fully up and running.

In a statement, Ineos Automotive said: "The site's location on the French-German border, only 200km from Stuttgart, gives excellent access to supply chains, automotive talent and target markets."

Daimler, the German company that owns Mercedes, said Ineos would take control of the factory in the coming weeks. No sale price was disclosed. The new vehicle will start being built at Hambach late next year.

"This acquisition marks our biggest milestone yet in the development of the Grenadier," Dirk Heilmann, chief executive of Ineos Automotive, said.

The decision is the second major blow for Bridgend, as the factory would have stood beside the now-closed Ford engine plant. Ford shut the plant in September after 40 years, with the loss of nearly 1,700 jobs.
A perfect example of the snake oil sold in 2016 .. you can still get the same snake oil sold today but it is only to be found in Poundland

1andrew1 21-02-2023 21:56
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Good analysis from Robert Peston on the decision that Sunak needs to make.
Quote:
Johnson’s Northern Ireland Protocol Bill may be what blows up Sunak’s attempt to reform the NI Protocol.

On the one hand, the EU won’t do a deal with him if he doesn’t scrap it. On the other, Johnson, Braverman and other Tory Brexiters are saying he must permanently keep it as a reserve power with which to pummel the EU. In the end Sunak will have to choose between the Johnson-led Tory faction that loathes him, but which he can ill-afford to provoke, and an EU that looked to him to be a welcome break from that anti-EU faction.

If he isn’t strong enough to choose, which conceivably he isn’t, these Protocol negotiations will go back into the slowest of all slow lanes, and there’ll be no resumption of devolved government in NI any time soon (and the UK’s trade relations with the EU will remain massively sub-optimal sine die).
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1627972209015750660

Hugh 23-02-2023 14:53
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www....ys-2023-02-23/

Quote:
Therese Coffey, minister for the environment, food and rural affairs, said Britons could eat more seasonally, although she was conscious consumers had become used to supermarkets ensuring year-round availability of almost all produce.

"It's important to make sure that we cherish the specialisms that we have in this country," she told parliament.

"A lot of people would be eating turnips right now, rather than thinking necessarily about ... lettuce and tomatoes," she said, referring to the root vegetable traditionally available in Britain at this time of year.

She said the shortages could last up to a month.

Chris 23-02-2023 14:58
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36146771)
But why post it in this thread?

TheDaddy 23-02-2023 15:20
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36146772)
But why post it in this thread?
I wonder :scratch:

Hugh 23-02-2023 15:40
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36146772)
But why post it in this thread?
Because our supply chain challenges since our change in status.

heero_yuy 23-02-2023 15:52
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
So nothing to do with unseasonable weather in Spain and (non-EU) Morocco impacting crops? :rolleyes:

Taf 23-02-2023 16:26
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Or ferries cancelled due to very bad weather?

Chris 23-02-2023 16:30
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36146786)
Because our supply chain challenges since our change in status.
This despite a different reason being offered in every tv and web report over it over the past 2-3 days? The BBC anchor even asked flat out if this was a Brexit issue last night and their correspondent said no - the shortages are due to weather and energy prices and the patchy supplies are affected by the prices retailers had previously agreed to pay suppliers. Two of these three reasons are even given in the link you provided. Brexit, conspicuously, is not.

But hey, don’t let the facts get in the way of prejudice ;)

Ms NTL 23-02-2023 16:40
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36146788)
So nothing to do with unseasonable weather in Spain and (non-EU) Morocco impacting crops? :rolleyes:
Which had no effect in the whole of EU or Spain. They all have tomatoes.

Chris 23-02-2023 16:45
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms NTL (Post 36146796)
Which had no effect in the whole of EU or Spain. They all have tomatoes.
Most British supermarkets also had them, until two of them said they were having trouble and started rationing. Then everyone piled in to their competitors who had stated they had no shortages. And now everybody has shortages and idiots up and down the land will by this time next week have bowls full of rotting salad items in their kitchens.

As reported on the Beeb last night however, supplies in continental Europe have more to do with lower energy prices, proximity to producers and higher negotiated prices with their retail partners.

Sephiroth 23-02-2023 16:47
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Or Therese Coffey being a total, out of touch, ass?

TheDaddy 23-02-2023 17:02
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36146788)
So nothing to do with unseasonable weather in Spain and (non-EU) Morocco impacting crops? :rolleyes:
But something to do with how Spain used to be able to export things here as easily as they would to Germany and now they can't :rolleyes:

Paul 23-02-2023 19:28
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36146793)
But hey, don’t let the facts get in the way of prejudice ;)
Everything is the fault of Brexit, at least for remoaners remainers, you should know that by now. :)

Sephiroth 23-02-2023 19:46
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36146800)
But something to do with how Spain used to be able to export things here as easily as they would to Germany and now they can't :rolleyes:
You haven't thought this through properly, have you? You go straight for Brexit with no proof whatsoever.

Spain/Morocco suffer a production shortage of, say, tomatoes. So, up goes the price and the highest bidder gets the goods.

The supermarkets then turn to UK sources of tomatoes; but their costs have risen and many will have stopped producing such products. The supermarkets then turn to Spain/Morocco, who have already sold their tomatoes to the higher bidders.

Hence shortage.

Because there has been no previous supply issue, Brexit cannot have any role in the shortage of tomatoes.

1andrew1 23-02-2023 20:31
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36146814)
You haven't thought this through properly, have you? You go straight for Brexit with no proof whatsoever.

Spain/Morocco suffer a production shortage of, say, tomatoes. So, up goes the price and the highest bidder gets the goods.

The supermarkets then turn to UK sources of tomatoes; but their costs have risen and many will have stopped producing such products. The supermarkets then turn to Spain/Morocco, who have already sold their tomatoes to the higher bidders.

Hence shortage.

Because there has been no previous supply issue, Brexit cannot have any role in the shortage of tomatoes.
Clearly, the UK is not known for its tomato-growing facilities in February!

But there is clearly a link between Brexit and the UK's reduced self-sufficiency in food through a reduction in available labour and farming subsidies. A viewing of Series 2 of Clarkson's Farm demonstrates the subsidy issues post-EU.

Regarding the supply issues from the EU
Quote:
Pekka Pesonen, secretary-general of Copa-Cogeca, the EU farmers’ union, said extra post-Brexit paperwork was also a factor, even though full sanitary and phytosanitary checks on imports have not yet been implemented.

“There is high demand for certain Spanish produce and if Spanish companies are approached, would they opt to sell to the British, or to EU countries which are easier to export to, where they don’t have all the paperwork?” he said.

“It’s more of a hassle exporting from Spain to the UK instead of to Germany. If you pay enough there will always be sources, but I don’t know whether UK retailers are willing to pay extremely high prices.”
https://www.ft.com/content/434b13b1-...1-6bbe8a728870

TheDaddy 23-02-2023 20:54
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36146814)
You haven't thought this through properly, have you? You go straight for Brexit with no proof whatsoever.

Spain/Morocco suffer a production shortage of, say, tomatoes. So, up goes the price and the highest bidder gets the goods.

The supermarkets then turn to UK sources of tomatoes; but their costs have risen and many will have stopped producing such products. The supermarkets then turn to Spain/Morocco, who have already sold their tomatoes to the higher bidders.

Hence shortage.

Because there has been no previous supply issue, Brexit cannot have any role in the shortage of tomatoes.
Yeah I haven't thought it through :rolleyes: :nutter:

Get used to it, we are more expensive and there's more red tape than there used to be so whenever there is a shortage of anything we will be at the back of the queue because it's easier and cheaper to export to others first

Chris 23-02-2023 21:40
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36146819)
Clearly, the UK is not known for its tomato-growing facilities in February!
Clearly, about 60 seconds research would saved you making a false statement …

We produce 100,000 tonnes annually, across 20 nurseries, all of them using indoor facilities. These do not operate seasonally - they’re in heated greenhouses, negating the whole concept of seasonal production.

https://www.fruitnet.com/fresh-produ...246409.article

The UK consumes 500,000 tonnes of tomatoes per year, so domestic production covers 20% of that, which is none too shabby considering we don’t have a tomato-growing climate.

https://www.britishtomatoes.co.uk/ne...it-for-a-queen

Even without Googling, this should have been fairly obvious. Greg Wallace seems to visit these sorts of places on a near weekly basis for one BBC programme or another.

1andrew1 23-02-2023 22:37
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36146829)
Clearly, about 60 seconds research would saved you making a false statement …

We produce 100,000 tonnes annually, across 20 nurseries, all of them using indoor facilities. These do not operate seasonally - they’re in heated greenhouses, negating the whole concept of seasonal production.

https://www.fruitnet.com/fresh-produ...246409.article

The UK consumes 500,000 tonnes of tomatoes per year, so domestic production covers 20% of that, which is none too shabby considering we don’t have a tomato-growing climate.

https://www.britishtomatoes.co.uk/ne...it-for-a-queen

Even without Googling, this should have been fairly obvious. Greg Wallace seems to visit these sorts of places on a near weekly basis for one BBC programme or another.
A few more seconds' Googling will have informed you about growing seasons.
Quote:
23/02/2023. The British Tomato Growers Association (BTGA) said shortages are mainly down to a lack of imports but the local growing season is due to begin soon.

The BTGA said in a statement: “Many people have commented on the current lack of fresh tomatoes in some supermarket stores.

“Whilst this is predominantly a consequence of the lack of imported product at this time of year, the British season will soon begin and we expect significant volumes of British tomatoes on shelves by the end of March and into April 2023.
https://www.kentonline.co.uk/news/na...f-march-81726/

This should have been fairly obvious to most tomato shoppers in the UK.

Sephiroth 23-02-2023 22:44
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
23/02/2023. The British Tomato Growers Association (BTGA) said shortages are mainly down to a lack of imports but the local growing season is due to begin soon.

The BTGA said in a statement: “Many people have commented on the current lack of fresh tomatoes in some supermarket stores.

“Whilst this is predominantly a consequence of the lack of imported product at this time of year, the British season will soon begin and we expect significant volumes of British tomatoes on shelves by the end of March and into April 2023.
The clue is in the name "BTGA" and the word "predominantly". It's what they don't say that Chris and I have said.

You got it wrong, this time, Andrew.

1andrew1 24-02-2023 00:44
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36146835)


The clue is in the name "BTGA" and the word "predominantly". It's what they don't say that Chris and I have said.

You got it wrong, this time, Andrew.
I should have said "February is not known for its tomato harvest", not "February is not known for its tomato facilities" which is a bit daft. Apologies.

There will obviously be some exceptions to this rule but the British tomato season is from March to November so February is not known for its tomato harvest. https://guernseypress.com/news/uk-ne...-end-of-march/

I agree with the BTGA, the current situation is largely due to lack of imports.

Sephiroth 24-02-2023 01:04
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
The BTGA members stopped producing hot-house tomatoes because of the heating costs and the refusal of UK supermarkets to pay the higher price.

The BTGA seems to me to have been economic with the truth.

Ms NTL 24-02-2023 07:53
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
https://scontent-lcy1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...0w&oe=63FC9093

jfman 24-02-2023 08:53
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36146851)
The BTGA members stopped producing hot-house tomatoes because of the heating costs and the refusal of UK supermarkets to pay the higher price.

The BTGA seems to me to have been economic with the truth.
Capitalism, innit?

Hugh 24-02-2023 10:20
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36146814)
You haven't thought this through properly, have you? You go straight for Brexit with no proof whatsoever.

Spain/Morocco suffer a production shortage of, say, tomatoes. So, up goes the price and the highest bidder gets the goods.

The supermarkets then turn to UK sources of tomatoes; but their costs have risen and many will have stopped producing such products. The supermarkets then turn to Spain/Morocco, who have already sold their tomatoes to the higher bidders.

Hence shortage.

Because there has been no previous supply issue, Brexit cannot have any role in the shortage of tomatoes.
https://www.theguardian.com/business...t-import-rules

Quote:
But Alfonso Gálvez, who serves as general secretary of the Murcia branch of Asaja, Spain’s biggest farming association, said he was puzzled by the media talk of weather-induced shortages.

“I’ve seen these articles but I don’t understand why they’re talking about shortages here,” he said. “Things are normal so far this season so I don’t know if it’s more a problem of UK logistics since the Brexit regulations came into effect. There’s enough produce to supply the market and the vegetable season is happening pretty normally.”

While he acknowledged that rising costs had seen a drop in production for some growers, and that frosts had affected some artichoke and lettuce crops, Gálvez said those issues were not serious or widespread enough to have significantly reduced market supplies.

The current UK shortages, he suggested, may have more to do with bureaucracy and logistics than the weather.

“The sector adapted to the new [post-Brexit] export protocols set by the UK in coordination with the different ministries that are responsible,” he said. “But there have been logistics and transport problems when it comes to export, such as a shortage of lorry drivers to service the UK market, and the problems we’ve seen with the queues to get into the country through Eurotunnel.”

That, Gálvez added, may have led some export companies or co-operatives to focus more on the continental market than the UK market.

“On top of that, you’ve got the costs of all this bureaucracy and all these waits, which mean that perhaps the UK market isn’t so attractive,” he said.

jonbxx 24-02-2023 10:24
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
It will be fun from the end of this year when more paperwork will be required for imports of food products from the EU;

Quote:
FROM END OF 2023
Export Certificates (health & catch)
Products of animal origin
High risk food and feed not of animal origin
Animal by-products
Certificate of inspection needed for organic food

Phytosanitary Certificates
For regulated plants and plant products

IPAFFS/PEACH Pre-Notification
IPAFFS for animals and animal products
PEACH for plants

Entry through Border Control Post (BCP)
Expected for

live animals
regulated plants/plant products
high risk plants and plant products
products of animal origin
animal by products
high risk food and feed not of animal origin
germinal products

Checks
Expected for

live animals
regulated plants/plant products
high risk plants and plant products
products of animal origin
animal by products
high risk food and feed not of animal origin
germinal products

1andrew1 24-02-2023 15:05
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36146874)
It will be fun from the end of this year when more paperwork will be required for imports of food products from the EU;
I wonder if they'll roll them over for another year?

TheDaddy 24-02-2023 15:52
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36146903)
I wonder if they'll roll them over for another year?
Wasn't this fiasco supposed to cut down on red tape and I wonder what excuse will be dreamed up at the end of year to excuse the car crash, might be better if they don't try tbh, just accept it for what it is, this is the price we pay, same as with our now open door asylum policy

ianch99 24-02-2023 16:05
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
What is important here is not to listen to the binary cause specialists. "A problem is either caused by Brexit or it is not". Of course, you will get the zealots jumping on statements like "We have no fruit because of Brexit" but you would have to be naïve or a fool to be gas lit by their responses.

It may be a big shock but the world is more complex that this binary, cartoon-like representation. Most things that are happening to this country will have a Brexit contribution, the only discussion is how impactful this contribution is. For this situation, here's a well balanced perspective:

https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/...able-shortages

Quote:
Where does Brexit come into all this?

Contrary to some of the reaction on social media, Brexit has a minimal role to play in the immediate shortage, according to experts.

For example, the British Growers Association says one of the big issues arising from Brexit for the fresh produce sector - attracting workers from EU countries - has been mitigated by the Seasonal Workers Permit Scheme.

“It is more about being able to get back the investment the growers need to make in planting crops and that's where the system has fallen down rather than Brexit,” he added.

The location of the UK and its isolation from mainland Europe, however, has played a significant part and is the differentiator from the situation in EU countries without shortages of fruit and vegetables.

“It is less costly for a supplier to supply to the Netherlands and other countries in the northern part, because they don't have these 25 miles of the English Channel to negotiate because that adds a cost,” said Chris White of Fruit Net.

Navigating extra Brexit-imposed cost and bureaucracy of getting the fresh fruit and vegetables across the Channel is clearly proving too costly for some producers, which is why tomatoes are reaching supermarkets in France, Belgium or the Netherlands but not Britain.

And according to media reports Irish supermarkets have also reported depleted stocks of tomatoes and fresh produce, just like in the UK - but while geography (and related costs) will be a factor there, Brexit won't be
It is the highlighted part that is important here: our decision to isolate ourselves, in trading terms, means that suppliers will naturally choose easier markets to deliver to if they can .. this seems to the case here. Had we still been in the EU, we would be getting more supplies. Sort of obvious really.

TheDaddy 24-02-2023 16:43
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36146906)
What is important here is not to listen to the binary cause specialists. "A problem is either caused by Brexit or it is not". Of course, you will get the zealots jumping on statements like "We have no fruit because of Brexit" but you would have to be naïve or a fool to be gas lit by their responses.

It may be a big shock but the world is more complex that this binary, cartoon-like representation. Most things that are happening to this country will have a Brexit contribution, the only discussion is how impactful this contribution is. For this situation, here's a well balanced perspective:

https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/...able-shortages



It is the highlighted part that is important here: our decision to isolate ourselves, in trading terms, means that suppliers will naturally choose easier markets to deliver to if they can .. this seems to the case here. Had we still been in the EU, we would be getting more supplies. Sort of obvious really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36146814)
You haven't thought this through properly, have you? You go straight for Brexit with no proof whatsoever.
:p:

jonbxx 24-02-2023 18:14
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36146906)
What is important here is not to listen to the binary cause specialists. "A problem is either caused by Brexit or it is not". Of course, you will get the zealots jumping on statements like "We have no fruit because of Brexit" but you would have to be naïve or a fool to be gas lit by their responses.

It may be a big shock but the world is more complex that this binary, cartoon-like representation. Most things that are happening to this country will have a Brexit contribution, the only discussion is how impactful this contribution is. For this situation, here's a well balanced perspective:

https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/...able-shortages

It is the highlighted part that is important here: our decision to isolate ourselves, in trading terms, means that suppliers will naturally choose easier markets to deliver to if they can .. this seems to the case here. Had we still been in the EU, we would be getting more supplies. Sort of obvious really.
I agree 100%. These discussions, like many discussions these days seems to lack nuance. If something happens, it’s either completely due to Brexit or Brexit has nothing to do with it. It is almost always somewhere in the middle.

See also do masks and vaccine work with COVID…

Sephiroth 24-02-2023 18:35
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36146906)
What is important here is not to listen to the binary cause specialists. "A problem is either caused by Brexit or it is not". Of course, you will get the zealots jumping on statements like "We have no fruit because of Brexit" but you would have to be naïve or a fool to be gas lit by their responses.

It may be a big shock but the world is more complex that this binary, cartoon-like representation. Most things that are happening to this country will have a Brexit contribution, the only discussion is how impactful this contribution is. For this situation, here's a well balanced perspective:

https://www.euronews.com/green/2023/...able-shortages



It is the highlighted part that is important here: our decision to isolate ourselves, in trading terms, means that suppliers will naturally choose easier markets to deliver to if they can .. this seems to the case here. Had we still been in the EU, we would be getting more supplies. Sort of obvious really.

I might have missed something but didn’t that commentator acknowledge that Ireland is having similar problems? Is that due in any way to Brexit?

Fact is, France and Germany are paying the higher price for the reduced stock of salad vegetables than our supermarkets were prepared to pay.

Damien 24-02-2023 21:46
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Sunak appears to have had a bit of a blunder: https://news.sky.com/story/king-char...tions-12819073

Seems like he tried to get the King to meet Ursula von der Leyen over the protocol. The details would be hammered out by the Government obviously, the King would just have been doing the usual handshaking and PR stuff, but Suank seems to be trying to use him to win over his own party and the DUP. Which is dodgy.

Sephiroth 24-02-2023 22:14
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36146933)
Sunak appears to have had a bit of a blunder: https://news.sky.com/story/king-char...tions-12819073

Seems like he tried to get the King to meet Ursula von der Leyen over the protocol. The details would be hammered out by the Government obviously, the King would just have been doing the usual handshaking and PR stuff, but Suank seems to be trying to use him to win over his own party and the DUP. Which is dodgy.
It's like a filling up the car with petrol moment, or looking the part in his car without a seatbelt.

Clueless as to how to do things.

1andrew1 24-02-2023 23:12
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36146935)
It's like a filling up the car with petrol moment, or looking the part in his car without a seatbelt.

Clueless as to how to do things.
Whatever we might think about Johnson, he was pretty good at this type of thing.

---------- Post added at 22:12 ---------- Previous post was at 21:59 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36146905)
Wasn't this fiasco supposed to cut down on red tape and I wonder what excuse will be dreamed up at the end of year to excuse the car crash, might be better if they don't try tbh, just accept it for what it is, this is the price we pay, same as with our now open door asylum policy
You need to eat more turnips and stop talking Brexit down. :D

daveeb 25-02-2023 00:01
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36146942)
Whatever we might think about Johnson, he was pretty good at this type of thing.

---------- Post added at 22:12 ---------- Previous post was at 21:59 ----------


You need to eat more turnips and stop talking Brexit down. :D
:D Yes a nice seasonal turnip salad should stop all that tomato anxiety.

heero_yuy 25-02-2023 09:12
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Apparently there's been a run on turnips with supermarkets suggesting swede as an alternative.

Bit tough on the Baldricks amongst us. :D

Chris 25-02-2023 14:07
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
I’m blessed to be able to afford a turnip of my own. But I long for the day I could afford a turnip in the country. :D

Hugh 25-02-2023 14:17
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36146969)
I’m blessed to be able to afford a turnip of my own. But I long for the day I could afford a turnip in the country. :D
If that happens, you could write a story about.

That would be a turnip for the books…

TheDaddy 25-02-2023 15:04
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36146969)
I’m blessed to be able to afford a turnip of my own. But I long for the day I could afford a turnip in the country. :D
Or a turnip in another country, oh yeah can't do that easily anymore either

Pierre 25-02-2023 17:28
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36146969)
I’m blessed to be able to afford a turnip of my own. But I long for the day I could afford a turnip in the country. :D
That would be so swede

Hugh 26-02-2023 20:43
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
What Rishi Sunak’s Brexit deal actually means
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2...838a706da39654

Quote:
Rishi Sunak’s new Brexit deal attempts to address three critical problems with the Northern Ireland protocol that was negotiated by his predecessor Boris Johnson, senior government sources have said.

Downing Street is preparing to highlight inadequacies in Johnson’s agreement with the EU and how they have been addressed. Aides are also preparing to attack Johnson’s claim that his Northern Ireland Protocol Bill, a law allowing Britain to unilaterally override its obligations, would provide a better solution to the impasse.

1andrew1 26-02-2023 21:45
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36147021)
Sounds like he's got his ducks in a row. By far the most competent Prime Minister we've had in a long while.

1andrew1 27-02-2023 12:57
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
The DUP won't agree to a revised Brexit deal as it will restore power-sharing and importantly, deliver the inaugural Sinn Féin first minister.

So is King Charles effectively showing which side of the fence he is on and is he appealing over the DUP's heads to win the hearts and minds of as much of the Northern Irish population as he can?
Quote:
Ursula von der Leyen will meet with the King this afternoon as she discusses changes to the Northern Ireland Protocol in Windsor with the prime minister, Sky News understands.

A palace spokesperson said: "The king is pleased to meet any world leader if they are visiting Britain and it is the government's advice that he should do so."

The EU Commission president is in the UK to hold talks with Rishi Sunak with both sides closing in on securing an enhanced Brexit deal.
https://news.sky.com/story/eu-commis...talks-12821356

Maggy 27-02-2023 13:25
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36147055)
The DUP won't agree to a revised Brexit deal as it will restore power-sharing and importantly, deliver the inaugural Sinn Féin first minister.

So is King Charles effectively showing which side of the fence he is on and is he appealing over the DUP's heads to win the hearts and minds of as much of the Northern Irish population as he can?

https://news.sky.com/story/eu-commis...talks-12821356
He's the Head of State so he's just doing his duty as Head of State.Stop trying to read anything into the meeting.:rolleyes:

Sephiroth 27-02-2023 13:27
Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Imo, Charlie Farlie couldn’t win the heart & mind of anyone.

As for the DUP, surely they want Stormont reconvened for 2024 to have the poll held on the Protocol? They’d possibly want an election first.




1andrew1 27-02-2023 13:36
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36147057)
He's the Head of State so he's just doing his duty as Head of State.Stop trying to read anything into the meeting.:rolleyes:
I'm asking a question of forum contributors, I'm not reading anything into the meeting.

Hugh 27-02-2023 13:39
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
1 Attachment(s)
Brexit deal: Rishi Sunak ‘has cabinet backing’ for protocol agreement — follow latest

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2...03057f71553dcd

Quote:
Ministers are unlikely to resign over Rishi Sunak’s Brexit deal after a series of extensive briefings by No 10 and ministers over the weekend, The Times has been told.

Steve Baker, a Northern Ireland minister, was given a detailed briefing on the contents of the agreement in Downing Street on Sunday. He is expected to be given advance sight of the text of the deal today.

He is said to accept that significant concessions have been made and believe that the deal could improve the lives of people living in Northern Ireland. Other ministers and senior Tory eurosceptics were briefed by Dominic Raab, the deputy prime minister, over the weekend...

… One senior member of the European Research Group of eurosceptic Tory MPs said that while they were impressed with the apparent concessions secured by Sunak, they still may decide not to back the deal.

They said that based on what they had heard they would “love” to back the deal but would move in “lock-step” with the DUP. They said that the government’s handling of the DUP — keeping them out of negotiations until a deal had been secured — had been “appalling” and led to significant levels of mistrust.
@garius on Twitter summed it up, imho

Quote:
Huge, huge gamble though.

For him (Sunak) to come out of this with a POLITICAL win, he's essentially dependent on Johnson not being an utter sociopath, the ERG being rational actors and the DUP being fine serving under a Catholic.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-p...ost_type=share

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...3&d=1677505872

Damien 27-02-2023 15:07
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Looks like the DUP will accept the deal

Hugh 27-02-2023 17:36
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
If this deal goes to a vote in the House of Commons, and the ERG vote against the Party line, I wonder if they’ll lose the Whip?

1701-e 27-02-2023 17:44
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36147030)
..... By far the most competent Prime Minister we've had in a long while.
That's not too difficult looking back at the last four piles of dog poo that have been in charge and caused many of the problems.

1andrew1 27-02-2023 18:11
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1701-e (Post 36147079)
That's not too difficult looking back at the last four piles of dog poo that have been in charge and caused many of the problems.
I'd like to be able to disagree with you but I can't! ;)

jonbxx 27-02-2023 18:25
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36147067)
Looks like the DUP will accept the deal
It will be interesting if they do. They will have to find another reason not to restart the Northern Irish Assembly with Sinn Fein as the lead.

Hugh 27-02-2023 18:28
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36147081)
It will be interesting if they do. They will have to find another reason not to restart the Northern Irish Assembly with Sinn Fein as the lead.
I think you’ve just given their reason for not restarting the NI Assembly…

1701-e 27-02-2023 18:48
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36147081)
It will be interesting if they do. They will have to find another reason not to restart the Northern Irish Assembly with Sinn Fein as the lead.
Don't think Yes is in their vocabulary....... Except when taking money for nothing. (RHI) checks for free.

Damien 27-02-2023 18:58
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
It looks a pretty good deal to be honest. Can’t really see any reasonable objections aside from people who want nothing to deal with the EU no matter what

Hugh 27-02-2023 19:04
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-ne...today-12821226

Quote:
Will there be a vote on the deal?

Both Tory and Labour MPs have been given a three-line whip for today, meaning they face suspension from their parties if they do not turn up in parliament.

This has prompted speculation there will be a vote by MPs on the expected deal.

Sir Robert said there "technically" does not have to be a vote because the EU Withdrawal Act allows for deals to have a "direct effect".

However, he said: "I think there'll be some sort of vote."

1andrew1 27-02-2023 19:28
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36147067)
Looks like the DUP will accept the deal
I'm not sure of your source but the BBC says the DUP has not decided yet as it needs to look at the detail. (5.17pm)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-64779415

---------- Post added at 18:23 ---------- Previous post was at 18:17 ----------

As well as the deal itself, another good bit of news is that we're closer to rejoining the Horizon Europe science programme which the UK was a net beneficiary of.

Quote:
"This Windsor Framework is good news for scientists and researchers in the European Union and in the UK, because of course the moment we have finished this agreement – so it's an agreement in principle – the moment it's implemented I’m happy to start immediately, right now, the work on an association agreement, which is the precondition to join Horizon Europe, so good news for all those who are working in research and science."

It's not unqualified good news of course. As von der Leyen made clear, EU won't invite us to re-join Horizon (and other important scientific collaborations: Euratom on nuclear technology and Copernicus for Earth observation) until a deal is finalised.

It's also not clear on what terms we might rejoin, and whether those terms will be as favourable as they were to the UK pre-Brexit. But there’s now a genuine prospect of progress.

"It is more than two years since the Government agreed association to Horizon Europe, Euratom and Copernicus – two years of delays that have damaged science across Europe. These schemes support outstanding international collaboration, and the sooner we join them, the better for everyone," said Sir Adrian Smith, President of the UK's Royal Society.
6.17pm. https://news.sky.com/story/politics-...rough-12593360

---------- Post added at 18:28 ---------- Previous post was at 18:23 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36147085)
It looks a pretty good deal to be honest. Can’t really see any reasonable objections aside from people who want nothing to deal with the EU no matter what
Agreed.

I don't know if it weakens Johnson's claim to have got Brexit done if Sunak had to sort this aspect out though.

Sephiroth 27-02-2023 19:31
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36147085)
It looks a pretty good deal to be honest. Can’t really see any reasonable objections aside from people who want nothing to deal with the EU no matter what
Agreed.

richard-john56 27-02-2023 20:58
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Get back to work you Democratic Useless Party and serve the people of Northern Ireland.

jonbxx 28-02-2023 10:19
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36147087)
As well as the deal itself, another good bit of news is that we're closer to rejoining the Horizon Europe science programme which the UK was a net beneficiary of.
Yeah, the Horizon thing is great news. Not taking part in the Horizon program was a disaster for the scientific community

1andrew1 28-02-2023 10:37
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36147087)
I don't know if it weakens Johnson's claim to have got Brexit done if Sunak had to sort this aspect out though.
Noteworthy that Johnson was not in the House yesterday cue calls of "Where is he?" from the Labour benches.

ianch99 28-02-2023 11:17
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
It will be interesting in how the ERG Brexit loons react to this. If they are effectively silenced, it will be the start of a silent re-convergence back to EU alignment to help mitigate some of the damage to business.

Hugh 28-02-2023 11:54
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Rishi Sunak this morning…

Quote:
"Northern Ireland has this very special position where it has access to the UK market, has access to the EU market, which makes it an incredibly attractive place to invest for businesses”.

1andrew1 28-02-2023 13:42
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36147122)
It will be interesting in how the ERG Brexit loons react to this. If they are effectively silenced, it will be the start of a silent re-convergence back to EU alignment to help mitigate some of the damage to business.
I wouldn't place Johnson in that category, but I think that it has certainly made him less relevant and stymied any comeback plans he might once have had.

I also think the ERG's importance is now blunted. The Conservative Party will likely now try and focus its efforts on tying to get economic growth and less on competing with UKIP on Brexit purity. Greater economic growth will mean closer ties to Europe and it's a trade-off that now seems to be acknowledged. The days of hoping for free trade deals with China, India and the USA to rescue the economy are gone.

TheDaddy 28-02-2023 16:24
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36147123)
Rishi Sunak this morning…
This isn't what we voted for, a few years back we left because we were a vassal state but now instead of that N Ireland is in a special privileged position

Damien 28-02-2023 17:19
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36147123)
Rishi Sunak this morning…

Quote:
"Northern Ireland has this very special position where it has access to the UK market, has access to the EU market, which makes it an incredibly attractive place to invest for businesses”.
It is a weird framing. I am not quite sure he meant to put it like that because it does leave the question open on that if it's so good for NI to have access to the single market then why not the rest of the U.K?

Chris 28-02-2023 17:54
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36147140)
It is a weird framing. I am not quite sure he meant to put it like that because it does leave the question open on that if it's so good for NI to have access to the single market then why not the rest of the U.K?
Because that would be to invite a re-run of the debate over whether single market access is worth the price paid in loss of sovereign control of various aspects of domestic policy. NI can now, more or less, enjoy the same freedom to diverge from onerous EU regulations on products intended for sale within NI that the rest of the UK has.

I’ve noted the usual Twitter bores simpering that ‘this is what we had’ all day today and it’s really a bit tedious now. You may agree with the argument or you may disagree with it, but please don’t pretend it doesn’t exist.

1andrew1 28-02-2023 19:03
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36147140)
It is a weird framing. I am not quite sure he meant to put it like that because it does leave the question open on that if it's so good for NI to have access to the single market then why not the rest of the U.K?
Agreed. It's weird framing because we've been told all along that Great Britain still has access to the EU market.

heero_yuy 28-02-2023 19:15
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36147149)
Agreed. It's weird framing because we've been told all along that Great Britain still has access to the EU market.
We have the same access as America, China, India, Japan et al.

1andrew1 28-02-2023 19:26
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 36147150)
We have the same access as America, China, India, Japan et al.
Nope, we probably have similar access to Japan but China for one has tariffs on its car exports to the EU. Cars exported there from Japan and the UK do not attract tariffs.

Sephiroth 28-02-2023 19:45
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36147138)
This isn't what we voted for, a few years back we left because we were a vassal state but now instead of that N Ireland is in a special privileged position
What's wrong with NI being in a privileged position? Norway pays into the EU for the privilege of being in the Single Market. NI got a free pass because of the Belfast Agreement.

Or did you mean something else?

ianch99 28-02-2023 22:47
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36147149)
Agreed. It's weird framing because we've been told all along that Great Britain still has access to the EU market.
access != frictionless access

---------- Post added at 21:43 ---------- Previous post was at 21:37 ----------

It is quite significant that we now have a Tory leave government admitting that we are better off, in economic terms, as part of the EU SM.

All we have left are the ideological zealots who are content for the country to be damaged, in all meanings of that word, as long as they have their sovrinty purity. It is quite remarkable how much pain they are content to see inflicted in order that they maintain their religious high ground. Mark you, it is normally those who are not materially affected by this debacle that shout the loudest.

---------- Post added at 21:47 ---------- Previous post was at 21:43 ----------

I know its been said that Farage is not the brightest bulb in the box but his latest tweet:

Quote:
There is now an exodus of young, talented people to Italy and Portugal. The 1970s brain drain is back. Tory party is totally useless.
after reading this article:

Milan Luxury Real Estate Booms as Bankers Leave London for Italy

Quote:
The market for luxury flats in Milan is booming as bankers, fund managers and private equity investors are flocking to Italy’s financial capital.

Thousands of foreigners and Italian nationals have relocated to the country since the government started granting generous tax breaks in 2017 to lure new arrivals. That has helped tilt Milan’s real estate market toward the high-end, especially as the city has become a popular landing spot for finance workers leaving London in the wake of Brexit.
Very, very funny ... :D

TheDaddy 01-03-2023 02:52
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36147153)
What's wrong with NI being in a privileged position? Norway pays into the EU for the privilege of being in the Single Market. NI got a free pass because of the Belfast Agreement.

Or did you mean something else?
I mean we voted to leave all that, not for one part of the country to remain in, we were told by the reigning party that this wasn't an issue and Teresa Villiers even went as far as saying anyone bringing the border up was using scare tactics

Sephiroth 01-03-2023 09:34
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36147170)
I mean we voted to leave all that, not for one part of the country to remain in, we were told by the reigning party that this wasn't an issue and Teresa Villiers even went as far as saying anyone bringing the border up was using scare tactics
It’s not so simple as that. The UK voted by majority to leave the EU. The NI majority voted to remain in the EU.

Both sides of the Brexit debate used scare tactics. The fact us, though, that the Irish question needed to be resolved if there was to be a deal with the EU. I would have preferred to simply drop out of the EU and move forward from there. I did not like the tail (Varuka, the Teashop) wagging the dog (UK). Remember then they wanted to punish us. 3 years later and everyone’s being reasonable - let’s hope the DUP get reasonable too.

ianch99 01-03-2023 10:31
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36147172)
It’s not so simple as that. The UK voted by majority to leave the EU. The NI majority voted to remain in the EU.
The Scotland majority voted to remain in the EU but this does not seem to fit your narrative?

Sephiroth 01-03-2023 11:04
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36147174)
The Scotland majority voted to remain in the EU but this does not seem to fit your narrative?
what are you on about? My remarks centre on the NI situation only and address Daddy’s view.

Plus - what is my narrative in you view?

ianch99 01-03-2023 12:39
Re: Britain outside the EU
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36147175)
what are you on about? My remarks centre on the NI situation only and address Daddy’s view.

Plus - what is my narrative in you view?
It's not difficult: you said NI is in a privileged position and then reinforced this by reminding us that "The NI majority voted to remain in the EU".

I am reminding you that Scotland also voted to remain in the EU but is as unprivileged as the rest of us. Sort of Brexity cake and eat it time :D


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