Re: Coronavirus
 

Keep up those double standards :tu:

Re: Coronavirus
 

Is it returning overseas travellers causing the problem?


Is there a specific problem activity or is it various ones?Are we allowed to say?

Re: Coronavirus
 

As they were accused of being too slow with the original lockdown I would imagine they are now being over cautious so they cannot be accused of the same again.

Who in their right mind wold travel to another country in the midst of a global pandemic and not expect a quarantine if the cases started rising in their holiday country anyway?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well, you appear to be hinting...

Re: Coronavirus
 

But are these outbreaks a result of overseas travel?

Re: Coronavirus
 

I'm referring to the quarantine of those returning form holiday "hot spots" not the local UK ones.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well you were replying to my post, which was about the local lockdowns.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Where I normally defend the government I voted for, I absolutely cannot defend them tonight, announcing on Twitter to millions of people at almost the 11th hour of the evening, these new restrictions that make absolutely no sense, households to be banned from seeing other households but can see them at the pub....

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's hard when people start to get used to be a bit more freedom to find it taken away, however necessary it is. Let's hope it's not for too long. But I agree it has been handled very poorly.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I’ll bat for the Government then :D

While not a fan of the mechanics of the announcement (Twitter) it’s unfortunately the best mechanism to quickly get a message out.

Banned from seeing other households (at home) means the vast majority will not. Yes, you could go to the pub, but the percentage that will is lower, and pubs should have mitigation in place.

Boris himself said in March (prior to lockdown) it’s about minimising social contact. Aggregated over the entire population the policy as implement achieves that to some degree.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Minimising social contact but people can still go to pubs & restaurants and to work?

It would be better to state that it's about minimising social contact so long as it doesn't affect the economy.

Re: Coronavirus
 

For anyone interested here's a link to an article in the Manchester Evening News last week. Last night's Government announcement has been on the cards for a few weeks and hopefully people in Gtr Manchester, including in my borough Trafford will take this seriously and try to curb the rising infection rates.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co...virus-18684548

Re: Coronavirus
 

I think the issue is that pubs and restaurants have guidance in place and perspex dividers etc whereas people's houses are not so appropriately equipped. Stopping people going to work must be a last resort, but many are still furloughed or working from home at the moment anyway.

Re: Coronavirus
 

You don't just magically teleport from your home/place of work to a pub or restaurant though.

Going to the pub you're likely to either use public transport, a taxi or walk, there's significant social interaction in any of those methods.

Whilst i can agree with regards to people meeting indoors being stopped. I'm not so sure why the meeting in gardens has to?

---------- Post added at 09:57 ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 ----------


Quite, as always it's about being aware and accepting responsibility/circumstances for the choices you make.

Unless there's any changes I'll be going away in September (holiday already paid for last year) to an area with 0 reported infections 0 deaths. If in that time whilst I'm away I learn i have to self isolate when i return then thats on me.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's a bit confusing as Matt Hancock's tweet said "The spread is largely due to households meeting and not abiding to social distancing. So from midnight tonight, people from different households will not be allowed to meet each other indoors in these areas." So, no reference to gardens there.

The Government promised a press conference for any big announcement but it seems to believe this is not such an announcement.

I would have thought good practice would be to either let everyone know as soon as possible as they did then follow up with a press conference the next day or just announce it at the press conference so the message is as clear as possible. (Clarity v speed of messaging debate)

Re: Coronavirus
 

What are you not allowed to do under the new rules if you live in one of the affected areas?


Meet people you do not live with inside a home or garden, except where you have formed a support bubble. (A support bubble can be formed by an adult who lives by themselves, or is a single parent with dependent children, with one other household of any size to form a close support network - allowing close contact with them as you could if they were members of your own household)
Visit someone else's home or garden, even if they live outside the affected areas

source https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...gland-12039610

Also here

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...kdown-22445526

Re: Coronavirus
 

Link

Basically keep yourselves to yourselves.


So no large gatherings, especially religious ones and funerals.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yet you can still meet in a park or in other outdoor spaces (just not gardens)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Gyms are back open in Wales from 10th August :romance: :eek: :ninja: :drool: :Sprint:

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yes, I agree with you, but I'm saying his tweet is confusing as it says "...people from different households will not be allowed to meet each other indoors in these areas"

Holding a press conference would have enabled such matters to be clarified.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Basically you can't meet other people unless there's a card reader present.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Oh i see, apologies.

Personally i believe that the health secretary has been confusing since this all started.

If it were up to me I'd have Rishi as PM,Chancellor & any other important ministerial roll.

He's outperformed (considerably) all others in the current climate.

---------- Post added at 10:45 ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 ----------


Indeed it would appear the risks from the virus are considerably lower when an economic benefit is available.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Basically people from different households shouldn't be in close proximity to one another, in whatever type of location.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It would have been pretty simple to have held a press conference at 5 or 6 pm yesterday.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Unenforceable, pub/restaurant will not be able to tell (and more than likely probably won't care) People can an be trusted to meet in a park or other outside space and maintain safe distancing but not in a private garden.

It's an utterly shambolic situation

---------- Post added at 11:17 ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 ----------

Boris to give briefing at 12pm according to the beeb

Re: Coronavirus
 

Impossible to come up with every single ridiculous scenario. Eg I don't have what could be described as a back garden, more of a back yard. It isn't mysteriously excluded from the rules, because only gardens are mentioned.:rolleyes:


People know full well what the underlying principles are, despite the media continually deliberately trying to muddy the waters.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Ah yes, the medias fault, of course.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Which the government conveniently use a lot for their own political ends...

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yes, that old chestnut. Good to see Boris stepping up to do a press conference though.

Re: Coronavirus
 

So when have the media ever set out the underlying principles, so that people can understand them?:confused: They are CONSTANTLY causing confusion, merely by using the word "confusion", and CONSTANTLY handing out convenient excuses for people to use, that they can then use to not obey the simple rules. Eg "Oh I can't wear a mask because of X, Y, Z", when the X, Y, and Z have come from the media. "I don't have to socially distance because of X, Y, Z", when again those non-existent excuses have come direct from the media. They just repeat them parrot-fashion. Just watch the news and see the excuses people come up with, and then say that the excuse has just been repeating something in the media. It goes on CONSTANTLY on all sorts of issues, long before now.

Re: Coronavirus
 

So what you're saying is that the governments instructions have been perfectly crystal clear and the media have sought to confuse the issue by adding things the government haven't said?

To confirm, you're saying that for example the government has never said about who is required to wear a mask and which people are exempt?

Aye, righto.......

To add to that, making the announcement on twitter? hardly able to get a clear message across with limited characters, I"m presuming that's of course twitters fault.....

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yes, Boris has surrounded himself with a pool of "yes to Brexit, yes to Boris" people and Sunak Rishi is one of the few in that pool to shine through. But the ending of the furlough scheme and Brexit will test his worth.
Pleased that Failing Grayling did not get to head up the Intelligence Committee. That was an oxymoron if ever I heard one.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Makes me laugh that many on here use twitter posts as part of their daily arguments, but when the Government use twitter as a message medium they get slaughtered :rolleyes:

Re: Coronavirus
 

a) I don't use twitter, nor do i frequently reference it
b) if you need to be educated as to why the government made a poor decision to use twitter to deliver a hugely important message which required a great deal of information to be given to 4.5m affected people then thats a sad state of affairs

Re: Coronavirus
 

Did you miss the bit where it was announced on the late evening news? I should imagine the final decision was taken AFTER the early evening news. A post was made in this very thread timed as 9:22pm and taken from Sky News. It was also reported on the BBC News website.

No great deal of information required, just that those in specified areas should "KEEP AWAY FROM OTHERS(wherever they are, eg Wales)". Not that complicated.

How else do people suggest it should've been put in a simple manner, that can also cover all the bogus scenarios?

What do people expect, a years notice of any changes?:mad:

Re: Coronavirus
 

I was unaware it was on the late evening news, but to my knowledge it was release on twitter first. Why not make the announcement at 12pm today coming into effect from Saturday

A highly complex situation cannot be explained via simple statements to a satisfactory degree

That's like saying to those who handle nuclear waste 'just be careful with it and you'll be alright'


Finally, the ONSS & Chris Whitty have said we're reaching the limits of what we can do. But Boris is still going ahead with returning to the workplace and opening schools.

If the government tries to curb social activity to allow economic activity to increase the British public as a whole I suspect will not tolerate it.

---------- Post added at 12:47 ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 ----------

[Press Conference]
Hi Folks,
Boris here,
We haven't got a clue.
[/Press Conference]

Re: Coronavirus
 

So where is it curbing social activity in order to allow economic activity?
Link

Let's be honest here, if it had been left any longer(even just hours) then the number of cases would've shot up dramatically in the days to come. It's still going to shoot upwards anyway, because they are not going to follow the instructions of what is needed.

The media a taking the approach of "if it doesn't say you can't touch nuclear waste with your feet, then you are allowed to do just that".:rolleyes: Common sense and underlying principles don't come into it.:mad:

If people living in an area have been told to stay away from others, that ALSO applies to them meeting up with people in other areas. The virus DOESN'T magically dissappear if they went to those other areas. Everybody is too busy looking for a "get out excuse".

Re: Coronavirus
 

Did you watch the news conference? Both Chris Whitty and Boris clearly stated that due to us being at the 'limits' trade offs we're going to need to be made.

By your very logic does the virus disappear when only economic activities are permitted?

And those who live in lets call them 'a partial lockdown area' but can't work from home or they travel outside of the 'partial lockdown area' for their work according to your statement above should not be going to work, something which goes directly against what Boris has said....?

Meeting people outside of areas for social activity - Bad
Meeting people outside of areas for economic activity - OK

Please explain how the virus differentiates between the two?

Re: Coronavirus
 

A) Post wasn't aimed at you specifically, and I don't use twitter/farcebook either.
B) IMO people who deliberately ignore, or who are unable to understand the reason for 'social distancing' during a pandemic after all these months, are beyond any further attempt at educating.

. . . or maybe it's a language issue?

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's been blatantly obvious that muslim areas of our city stayed open for business from the start of this pandemic. Crowded ethnic shops have been the norm. No police action at all from what I have seen.

To now be told that parts of the UK with large muslim populations are being pushed back into lockdown comes as no surprise.

Re: Coronavirus
 

So how do you explain a area like Trafford which is a mostly affluent part of Greater Manchester where health officials said younger middle-class residents were behind the recent rise in cases and not the south Asian community?.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Did I mention Asians Den?

And why did you single them out instead of Chinese, Russian, Latvian, Vietnamese, Turkish, Mongolian etc ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

What else would your last comments be about.

l quote.

Personally its not a simple as that Carth as take my city as one example where over half the local city population have totally ignored all the guidelines that have been issued.

Our city is mostly of white British as there are not many ethnic minorities down here.

Re: Coronavirus
 

This is hysterical - well it would be if the subject were not so serious! Try and take it as light reiief as the alternative is realising it's pretty scary having this guy in charge of health ;)
https://twitter.com/JoshHalliday/sta...09060797726721

Re: Coronavirus
 

Probably why you misinterpreted the post then, other places have a mix of nationalities, some of which definitely struggle with comprehending English ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

How does that specifically exclude the south Asian community?

How do you explain this?
Just because a borough is included, doesn't mean it's a problem area.
Link
Link

Quote:

'A lot' of British Muslims have not taken the threat of coronavirus 'seriously enough' and a lack of social distancing has caused a 'dangerous' spike in cases in the north of England, a mosque president told MailOnline today.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Covid 19 means a Conservative government has effectively carried out Corbyn's dream of nationalising the railways. Add this to the £400m investment in the OneWeb satellite business, the 62% stake in NatWest Group and paying people not to work via the furlough scheme and you have quite a socialist government!

https://www.theguardian.com/business...uring-pandemic

Re: Coronavirus
 

You won't think that when your paying for all these things.;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

The difference is, these decisions have been taken based on pragmatism and the immediate need to preserve what is intended to be, in the long run, a private sector operation. The power of the state is used to preserve freedom to do business and innovate in the long run, and not to perpetrate continuous socialist revolution as per Corbyn and his ideological fellow travellers.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

Just like after the 2008 Financial Crisis...

---------- Post added at 18:29 ---------- Previous post was at 18:29 ----------

Agreed - pragmatism over ideology... :)

Re: Coronavirus
 

i bought my first boat on the proceeds of that "crisis" ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

The government seems to have gone from a "lets think about this" approach to a headless chicken, knee jerk, lets panic approach. I've tried hard to support them and the sometimes baffling decisions they have made, but its just gone ridiculous now. From my discussions with family and friends, they are losing the support of the people (us) with these latest changes.

First with facemasks, then spain, now with lockdown (un)easing.
The leisure centre my family use was all ready to open on Aug 13th, my family had sessions booked. Now its all gone to pot again.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The good news is they are “following the science”.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well they don't have the scope anymore not to react quickly. It does seem we locked down a few days, maybe a week, too late precisely because they wondered if they could manage it a bit more effectively. It's a hard judgement call but it cost them and so now they're going to react much quicker. Maybe they've overacted but if this had turned out to be the start of a major outbreak then that would look awful too.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I'm not sure that splashing out £400m to invest in a bankrupt Florida satellite company was entirely necessary, it strikes me more as gambling with tax-payers hard-earned cash. However, I agree that nationalising the railways was necessary given the fall-off in customers.

---------- Post added at 19:51 ---------- Previous post was at 19:48 ----------

Agreed - a bit damned if they do, damned if they don't. But I think the manner in which yesterday's northern England restrictions was conducted was not as good as it could have been.

Re: Coronavirus
 

You’ve forgotten to include the word ‘selectively’

Re: Coronavirus
 

When I read your post to my Dalmatian, it barked uncontrollably for some reason...

Anyway, I wonder what "culture" these people are from?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...607907?SThisFB

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

It’s blindingly obvious that this is to do with Eid, and they’ve even rolled out a lowly backbencher to say as much.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

:D:D:D:D

Re: Coronavirus
 

Pretty amazing that the infection rates spiked before Eid actually happened, as symptoms on average appear five days after infection, and if people were gathering for Eid, they would have had to have been doing this a week before Eid?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

Bingo ?

Re: Coronavirus
 

So how is that related to the areas with large increases? Are people really coming all the way down from the NW or Leicester or Peterborough?:rolleyes: Milton Keynes and Northampton perhaps. Have Bournemouth, Brighton, and Poole had large increases?
Link

Link



---------- Post added at 11:05 ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 ----------

They also gather in large number for funerals. There have been a few(perhaps more at local level) reported cases.
Link

Re: Coronavirus
 

I can understand why Boris Johnson may wish to delay opening up England further and why he might be keen on levelling up the playing field with Europe here.

European Covid 19 deaths 25-31 July
England: 430
Romania: 193
France: 65
Poland: 61
Italy: 44
Belgium: 28
Germany: 23
Portugal: 23
Wales: 12
Spain: 11
Netherlands: 8
Austria: 7
Greece: 5
Switzerland: 4
Denmark: 2
Ireland: 1
Hungary: 0
Lithuania: 0
Scotland: 0 (not reported yet for the period, last comparable was 8)
N. Ireland: 0

Re: Coronavirus
 

Are We still recording C19 Deaths like when you test positive and are then hit by a bus?

Re: Coronavirus
 

https://onlinebingo.co.uk/news/what-...about-gambling

Read that out to Hugh's Dalmation. Woof.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Probably so . . . can we ban buses to reduce the figures? ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well, you don’t have to worry about "unconscious bias"... ;)

As you know, there are also "cultural activities" in another cultural group every Sunday, but obviously, that’s different... :rolleyes:

Anyway, back in reality (well, reality near me, anyway)...

Leeds Grand Mosque
Also, their guidelines appear much stricter than my local pubs and restaurants...

Re: Coronavirus
 

Dalmatian...

<whistle>

Re: Coronavirus
 

So it's Christians that are getting together, 250 or more at a time for a funeral or 200 or so gathering on the streets for a festival, and then attacking each other and the Police?
Link

It's not whether there are any rules, it's whether people are sticking to them. It is Muslims themselves that are complaining that it is spreading amongst them, and because they are not following the rules.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

Excellent approach from the city of Liverpool showing how outbreaks can be managed without locking down the whole city.
https://twitter.com/janemerrick23/st...87182877659136

Re: Coronavirus
 

Anyone can come up with a plan, it's whether it works or not.

Too soon to tell?

Re: Coronavirus
 

As I said before, I don’t think you are guilty of "unconscious bias"...

I think anyone actively promoting "a clash of cultures" is a "baddie", whichever "culture*" they think they are...

*"culture" - British culture has always been modified and shaped by our interactions with the world outside our shores, and migrants to our land, but that’s not what you meant by "our culture", is it?

Re: Coronavirus
 

It is better to have a plan even if it ain't that good rather than have no plan at all.

Re: Coronavirus
 

They're not doing anything that different to other very localised outbreaks around the country. When you're dealing with a few dozen cases, that's one thing, hundreds of them spread about is another.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yet, it was sufficiently different to be highlighted in several tweets by the policy editor of a national newspaper.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Regardless if an outbreak is "hyper-localized" it might be viable. With the wider population of the rest of us, any outbreak is likely to be spread more.
Link

Quote:

Akhtar Mahmood, a member of the mosque committee added: ‘One of the big problems we have had is of people going to pay their respects at the homes of those who have recently died. We lost a member of our congregation two weeks ago and there were 50 people gathered at his house to express their sympathies.’ A single road in Bradford registered an astonishing 17 coronavirus cases within six days, it has emerged.

Easy when it's all on one road.

Link

Link

Walk-in testing centres exists in other places as well.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I don't understand the logic of that sentence and what "the wider population of the rest of us" means. Do you just mean the total population? Surely, as the virus declines, any outbreaks will become more local as the virus begins to die out?

But, I think you're dismissing some rare good news. ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

My points are:-
1) It's not that special.
2) The outbreak are larger than that.

3) It shouldn't be needed in the first place. People should be behaving themselves.

---------- Post added at 08:50 ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 ----------

Now this is a lockdown.
Link

Re: Coronavirus
 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...63f70832efc25b

Re: Coronavirus
 

1) It's special enough to be singled out by a policy journalist. Where else in Engand is it happening?
2) I'm providing this as an example of how outbreaks might be managed less bluntly. I find it quite encouraging.
3) People may well have been behaving themselves but if they use or work on public transport, hospitals, shops, libraries, restaurants, bars etc then there is a chance of infection. We shouldn't automatically blame the victim, although when we see pictures of people flocking to the seaside, etc and not social distancing our unconscious bias means it's natural to do so.

---------- Post added at 09:19 ---------- Previous post was at 09:16 ----------

That's hugely disappointing. It's hard to comment without knowing what the unexpected delays are though.

Re: Coronavirus
 

At last - a more sensible approach to apply instead of total lockdown. The PM appears to have listened to my advice!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...-new-lockdown/

Boris Johnson has asked officials to prepare a suite of possible measures that could help avoid shutting down the economy for a second time, after he said that he wanted to avoid another lockdown.

The options include a programme of "enhanced" or "differential" shielding, as part of which vulnerable people would be asked to remain at home while the rest of the population continued to move around freely. One proposal is for the shielded group to be allocated specific times of the week to have exclusive access to some services and shops.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Another lockdown would be disastrous. I’ll think we’ll just be playing COVID Whack-a-mole For the foreseeable future.

Re: Coronavirus
 

But they ARE being criticised for going to the beach etc. The key difference is that I'm not aware of any evidence that it has lead to any town/city wide lockdowns. Another huge key difference is the level of interaction between groups.


Many areas have their own walk-in testing setups. The care homes can use that.

---------- Post added at 10:47 ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 ----------

How would that make a difference? There would still be an intermingling between those separate groups at one stage or another.

Re: Coronavirus
 

If the first point is a disguised criticism of Muslims for things like the Leicester lock-down, I refer you to this Full Fact analysis. https://fullfact.org/health/leiceste...utbreak-islam/

Regarding testing in care homes, the reasons that many guests are in them mean that they can't just walk into "testing set-ups"!

Re: Coronavirus
 

Nice answer Den, maybe everyone will now stop knocking the Government? ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

We'll get better at managing them as time goes on and the "moles" should become smaller.

---------- Post added at 11:10 ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 ----------

It's right to hold those in power to account, more so when our figures are so poor compared to our peers in Europe. So it's right to praise them when they do things right and to point out when they appear to be doing things wrong so the lessons are learnt.

Re: Coronavirus
 

No ones knocking it as governments have to be questioned and scrutinised as that is part of the democratic process.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I would like someone to scrutinise these scientists and their advice, pluss i would like to see the science that comes up with all this lockdown advice,something written down would be nice not just ohh lets lock up old people and shut the pubs,because it's all sounding like a load of old bollocks to me:(

Re: Coronavirus
 

Right, I'll take your word for it then ;)


Only because I really can't be bothered to trawl back through the many threads & posts on the forum, looking for those 'choice' words and phrases used by some to 'question or scrutinise' the Government :D

Re: Coronavirus
 

Key words being “help avoid”.

Yes, we all want to avoid a second lockdown. However if these proposed measures don’t work back into lockdown we go. It’s inevitable.

It’s notable that the language throughout doesn’t rule it out.

Re: Coronavirus
 

So no actual specific evidence to the contrary.:rolleyes:
LinkTests can also be requested over the phone.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Innocent until proven guilty is the law in this country at the moment. There is insufficient evidence to prove or disprove it. I cited an independent fact-checking service, not a right-wing tabloid.

The point of a drop-in centre is you drop in, it's not Deliveroo. As Hugh pointed out, the Government has sadly back-pedalled on is commitment to test all in care homes for coronavirus this summer.

Re: Coronavirus
 

So, much like the English abroad then?

---------- Post added at 14:34 ---------- Previous post was at 14:31 ----------

The "British" culture referred to is best viewed through a set of myopic, Empire tinted spectacles :)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Not really. The idea is to prevent intermingling!

---------- Post added at 16:39 ---------- Previous post was at 16:29 ----------

Yes, but criticising the government at every turn, and before the full picture is known is plain destructive. A report will be commissioned, but it is too early to draw conclusions on how well or how badly this country is doing.

I'm not sure why you still compare the number of deaths due to Covid in the UK with those of other countries, when it has already been pointed out that each country gathers and presents its data differently. How can you sensibly compare our figures, which records all Covid deaths whether in hospitals, care homes or the community, when others are only counting hospital deaths, for example?

Even counting excess deaths isn't without its problems - 21,000 deaths have occurred due to postponement of operations and other measures imposed by the lockdown arrangements.

Any idiot can criticise - this is a highly complex issue and even the scientists are struggling to come up with appropriate and timely responses. The government has been following their advice throughout, like it or not.