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jfman 10-12-2018 16:16
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35974613)
My point is that if the EU bend because of the £39 billion, which I doubt will happen, then something reasonable might result. If our steel is maintained and the EU remains intransigent on the Backstop, then we don't pay the full £39 billion, only the £19 billion or so of committed money and go into No Deal.
If our first action as a truly independent and “sovereign” nation is to renege on our debts to the European Union our credit ratings will collapse and we will be considered as negotiating in bad faith by any prospective trading partner.

Not going to happen.

Stuart 10-12-2018 16:20
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35974611)
Business will have had 5yrs from the referendum to prepare if they haven't then they only have themselves to blame for burying their heads in the sand.

I would prefer if we were leaving in March with no deal.
The problem is (from what I understand) that for a lot of businesses, Theresa May's government haven't communicated much more actual information than they've given the public. Brexit means Brexit is a good sound bite, but no help if you are planning changes to your product distribution or planning for supplies . Where the government have given specific data to businesses, it's only been given after they sign a non-disclosure agreement (which makes me think things are a lot worse than we've been told).

As for no deal. Nice idea, but listening to people who actually work with WTO rules rather than a couple of politicians who have little or no experience in international trade, I'm inclined to believe it would be considerably worse for the economy than what we have now. It could take decades to negotiate membership, and until we do, we are likely to pay high tariffs.

jfman 10-12-2018 16:21
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35974611)
Business will have had 5yrs from the referendum to prepare if they haven't then they only have themselves to blame for burying their heads in the sand.

I would prefer if we were leaving in March with no deal.
The notion that “business” will pay the price for a lack of preparation is ludicrous. These are our employers, generally contributing to our country VAT, business rates, employers NICs. They pay our wages.

People at the end of the day will pay the price for a lack of preparation and it’s Government and the Leave campaign who said this would be the easiest negotiation ever, Europe on it’s knees.

We should remain until one single form of Brexit is agreed upon. With a five year transition from then. Only then will your point be valid.

jonbxx 10-12-2018 16:27
Re: Brexit
 
These shenanigans really does make you wonder what does a leader have to do to get the boot these days. Along with certain other leaders, it seems that you can do anything now and get away with it and if you get called on it, just deny everything!

Politicians who were at the top 10-20 years ago must be so jealous...

denphone 10-12-2018 16:30
Re: Brexit
 
l thought was pretty spot on comment from Yvette Cooper.

Quote:
Labour's Yvette Cooper says that the prime minister still sent out her ministers until 11am this morning to say that it was still going ahead.

"Does she not realise how chaotic and ridiculous this makes the whole country look?" she asks. She says the public "cannot trust the most basic things that our ministers are saying".

papa smurf 10-12-2018 16:30
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35974610)
Indeed but her enemies are increasingly all around her waiting for the right moment to stick their knives in to end her premiership.

Just watching the House of Commons speech and Priti Patel and Boris Johnson are sitting in the backrow at the far end of Commons muttering and head-shaking at almost everything Theresa May says
She's answering questions put to her with waffle ,that's probably why the're muttering and shaking their heads.

Stuart 10-12-2018 16:31
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974614)
If our first action as a truly independent and “sovereign” nation is to renege on our debts to the European Union our credit ratings will collapse and we will be considered as negotiating in bad faith by any prospective trading partner.

Not going to happen.
This is where the ideal pushed by Johnson, Rees-Mogg et al falls short of reality. They think we can gain the upper hand by refusing to pay the 39bn. I don't think we can. The EU are asking that we pay our dues, but I don't think they'll be massively inconvenienced if we don't. Yes, it might cause some ripples in the money market, but they'll weather it. I doubt the EU will bend. They are likely not to be able to bend much. Why? If they "bend" for us, they will have to bend for the next country that tries to leave, and the next. They can't afford for that to happen.

On the other hand, we will be going into negotiations for almost every aspect of our international trade with a reputation of being an unreliable payer. This is likely to be reflected in tougher trading terms, or countries being unwilling to deal with us. The WTO may not be able to help, as we won't be members, and any request for membership requires the agreement of all members, in much the same way the EU requires agreement amongst its members for actions. We may not get that agreement if other countries think we are just going to run off without paying any debts.

I don't

denphone 10-12-2018 16:33
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35974620)
She's answering questions put to her with waffle ,that's probably why the're muttering and shaking their heads.
Of course they don't have any credible plans themselves do they...

jfman 10-12-2018 16:34
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart (Post 35974621)
This is where the ideal pushed by Johnson, Rees-Mogg et al falls short of reality. They think we can gain the upper hand by refusing to pay the 39bn. I don't think we can. The EU are asking that we pay our dues, but I don't think they'll be massively inconvenienced if we don't. Yes, it might cause some ripples in the money market, but they'll weather it. On the other hand, we will be going into negotiations for almost every aspect of our international trade with a reputation of being an unreliable payer. This is likely to be reflected in tougher trading terms, or countries being unwilling to deal with us. The WTO may not be able to help, as we won't be members, and any request for membership requires the agreement of all members, in much the same way the EU requires agreement amongst its members for actions. We may not get that agreement if other countries think we are just going to run off without paying any debts.
At the same time some of these other countries are trying to get trade deals with... the European Union.

Hugh 10-12-2018 16:42
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35974587)
I think you like a lot of people seem to think we don't make anything anymore...

You're wrong

Some light reading for you: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/0...uring_figures/

And a chart for the hard of thinking. That's the Index of Production - our manufacturing base - failing to 'collapse'. The fact that we've also grown as global leaders in financial services does not mean that industry has gone away
From that 8 year old article.
Quote:
third thing is that manufacturing has fallen as a percentage of the economy. It is down to about 12% or so by some measures now, where once it was 50%
We also import 50% of our food, so a weaker pound means food price increases.

Sephiroth 10-12-2018 16:52
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974614)
If our first action as a truly independent and “sovereign” nation is to renege on our debts to the European Union our credit ratings will collapse and we will be considered as negotiating in bad faith by any prospective trading partner.

Not going to happen.
Our debt to the EU upon a no deal exit amount to some £19 billion; the rest is transition money which we don't have to pay.

Can't you see that or are you just being difficult?

jfman 10-12-2018 17:12
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35974626)
Our debt to the EU upon a no deal exit amount to some £19 billion; the rest is transition money which we don't have to pay.

Can't you see that or are you just being difficult?
If we genuinely don’t have to pay it all then that’s fair enough - I’ve never seen anything make then distinction but that’s not to say it isn’t out there. But I think it’s unlikely that the EU hasn’t prepared for this eventuality all along.

Sephiroth 10-12-2018 17:26
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974631)
If we genuinely don’t have to pay it all then that’s fair enough - I’ve never seen anything make then distinction but that’s not to say it isn’t out there. But I think it’s unlikely that the EU hasn’t prepared for this eventuality all along.
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/eu-divorce-bill

Sets out the numbers.

jfman 10-12-2018 17:41
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35974632)
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/eu-divorce-bill

Sets out the numbers.
“That set out a total bill of €41.4bn (£37.1bn), extending out to 2064 as pension liabilities fall due.

But it also makes clear that around half consist of payments the UK will make during the transition phase. The OBR estimates net payments under the financial settlement of €18.5bn (£16.4bn) in 2019 and 2020, during the transition, followed by net payments of €7.6bn in 2021, €5.8bn (2022) €3.1bn (2023) and €1.7bn (2024) before falling away to €0.2bn in 2028. The liabilities, net of assets, that then remain to be paid amount to a total of €2.7bn over the period 2021–45.”

It doesn’t actually say that those are transitional costs, just that the payments are due in 2019 and 2020.

denphone 10-12-2018 17:50
Re: Brexit
 
Conservative MP Sam Gyimah in parliament.

Quote:
Tory MP Sam Gyimah, who resigned from the government in opposition to the Brexit deal, says it is right for the PM to call on MPs to honour the referendum, but the 2017 general election led to the loss of a Conservative majority and gridlock in Parliament.
Quote:
There's no majority amongst MPs, he says, and if the prime minister cannot reach an agreement MPs cannot support then "it's not Parliament frustrating the will of the people, the general election led to an outcome that cannot lead to a clear decision".
Quote:
"In which case," he says, "we should not be afraid give it back to the people."

Sephiroth 10-12-2018 18:01
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974634)
“That set out a total bill of €41.4bn (£37.1bn), extending out to 2064 as pension liabilities fall due.

But it also makes clear that around half consist of payments the UK will make during the transition phase. The OBR estimates net payments under the financial settlement of €18.5bn (£16.4bn) in 2019 and 2020, during the transition, followed by net payments of €7.6bn in 2021, €5.8bn (2022) €3.1bn (2023) and €1.7bn (2024) before falling away to €0.2bn in 2028. The liabilities, net of assets, that then remain to be paid amount to a total of €2.7bn over the period 2021–45.”

It doesn’t actually say that those are transitional costs, just that the payments are due in 2019 and 2020.
The £39 billion includes the 20 months of transition at the going annual rate. If there is no transition, there is nothing due for that period. The timing of payments that are due would then be rescheduled to keep us honest. Obvs.

denphone 10-12-2018 18:11
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35974617)
These shenanigans really does make you wonder what does a leader have to do to get the boot these days. Along with certain other leaders, it seems that you can do anything now and get away with it and if you get called on it, just deny everything!

Politicians who were at the top 10-20 years ago must be so jealous...
l thought before today it was a complete and utter shambles but the omnishambles has reached a new high today sadly.

jfman 10-12-2018 18:16
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35974637)
The £39 billion includes the 20 months of transition at the going annual rate. If there is no transition, there is nothing due for that period. The timing of payments that are due would then be rescheduled to keep us honest. Obvs.
Yes, but the calculation that we wouldn’t pay £16.4bn is wrong, as we’d still be liable for some commitments (commitments lasting until 2064 regardless of how we leave).

Pierre 10-12-2018 18:21
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35974526)
Maybe it's not the shambles that we think it is.

Let's go back to the referendum result, the one where the public voted to leave the EU.

After the result was in, Government, Business and Financial sectors should have started to make preparations for leaving the EU . . including the so called 'hard brexit'.

Instead they all sat around scratching their heads, looking uncomfortable and muttering 'well that didn't go how we thought it would'.

Then some bright spark decided the best way to deal with it was to fudge, obfuscate, manipulate, and spread dissent so that it all decended into a farce that would end with no brexit at all.
Sounds accurate to me.

Hom3r 10-12-2018 18:24
Re: Brexit
 
I love how the SNP question the legality of the backstop, then have the nerve to call for an illegal 2nd referendum.

What message would that send to first time votes who voted leave, only to discover it could be change by crybabies who didn't get their way.

I for one wouldn't vote again.

Pierre 10-12-2018 18:32
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974549)
Why else do you think they are legislating on the basis that they are integral to the process?
Well it’s not legislating exactly though is it. It’s political manoeuvring.

It’s a non-binding amendment to a vote that hasn't happened yet.

Indeed the vote could happen at 23:00 on March 28th, thereby leaving the Greave amendment useless.

Sephiroth 10-12-2018 18:36
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974639)
Yes, but the calculation that we wouldn’t pay £16.4bn is wrong, as we’d still be liable for some commitments (commitments lasting until 2064 regardless of how we leave).
£39 billion - (2 x £10 billion) = £19 billion.

Pierre 10-12-2018 18:40
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974552)
I think they’ll extend Article 50, it’s too early to revoke it.
They can ask to have it extended, but if there doesn’t seem to be any clear resolution to this the EU27 won’t allow the can to be kicked so far.

jfman 10-12-2018 18:43
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35974647)
£39 billion - (2 x £10 billion) = £19 billion.
I’m at a loss as to where the 2x £10bn comes from. Is that our net contribution? If it is that’ll include things we can’t walk away from, like Nigel Farage’s pension.

---------- Post added at 18:42 ---------- Previous post was at 18:40 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35974643)
Well it’s not legislating exactly though is it. It’s political manoeuvring.

It’s a non-binding amendment to a vote that hasn't happened yet.

Indeed the vote could happen at 23:00 on March 28th, thereby leaving the Greave amendment useless.
That’s a clever idea to hold the vote so late as to force no deal. We will be done for.

How does she plan on winning the vote of no confidence though?

---------- Post added at 18:43 ---------- Previous post was at 18:42 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35974649)
They can ask to have it extended, but if there doesn’t seem to be any clear resolution to this the EU27 won’t allow the can to be kicked so far.
The EU have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, by leaving us in limbo.

Pierre 10-12-2018 18:57
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974650)
That’s a clever idea to hold the vote so late as to force no deal. We will be done for.

How does she plan on winning the vote of no confidence though?
Could all happen, if May is actually tied up in Rees-Mogg’s basement and what we are seeing no is an android doppelgänger. Based on today’s antics..........could be.

Quote:
The EU have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, by leaving us in limbo.
It’s interesting but whatever is going to happen, is not going to happen with out some future major movement from the EU, otherwise Hard Brexit is a real possibility. So depends whether they will move or not faced with that.

Everybody insists that the EU hold all the cards.

There is no appetite for. No deal Brexit in the UK, i’m Sure there is no appetite for one in the EU either, as it gets closer to March 29th we may be surprised by what happens.

jfman 10-12-2018 19:04
Re: Brexit
 
Everybody insists the EU holds all the cards because we can’t actually verify we hold any. £39bn in liabilities between now and 2064 to the largest trading bloc in the world isn’t much of a card at all. Some of which we will have to pay anyway to maintain any credibility.

I doubt we will be surprised what happens. This has second referendum written all over it.

djfunkdup 10-12-2018 19:07
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974658)
This has second referendum written all over it.
:dunce:

jfman 10-12-2018 19:12
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by djfunkdup (Post 35974659)
:dunce:
Don’t worry, you’ll catch up with the pace of everything just in time to cast your vote.

Carth can see it coming, Pierre can see it coming, you will too. It’s a ruse.

ianch99 10-12-2018 19:17
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by djfunkdup (Post 35974659)
:dunce:
What does this post mean? Any idiot can post just Smilies, try to say something useful for a change ..

djfunkdup 10-12-2018 19:21
Re: Brexit
 
<removed>

Paul 10-12-2018 19:22
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35974662)
What does this post mean? Any idiot can post just Smilies, try to say something useful for a change ..
Thats enough of that, back to the topic, before I start dealing out warnings - ALL of you.

Pierre 10-12-2018 19:22
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974658)
Everybody insists the EU holds all the cards because we can’t actually verify we hold any. £39bn in liabilities between now and 2064 to the largest trading bloc in the world isn’t much of a card at all. Some of which we will have to pay anyway to maintain any credibility.

I doubt we will be surprised what happens. This has second referendum written all over it.
Don’t kid ourselves that us leaving the EU, will be a bowl of cherries to the EU because it won’t.

It may not be as big an impact as it is to us, but it will be an impact. I’m not going to list everything, but you’re an informed person (apart from what you were originally voting for) so you know.

So it is in their interests, as it is in ours , to stay close.

It will be interesting to see, just how much in their interests it actually is.

djfunkdup 10-12-2018 19:23
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974661)
Don’t worry, you’ll catch up with the pace of everything just in time to cast your vote.

Carth can see it coming, Pierre can see it coming, you will too. It’s a ruse.

You must be one the most deluded people on this forum mate honestly lol
The only thing i can see coming is the Brexit Express and as another day passes it still aint been derailed ...

Ho Ho Ho Santa is coming :p:

ianch99 10-12-2018 19:23
Re: Brexit
 
Tusk is getting in early to reiterate the EU position:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...b0b950d12fa45f

Quote:
Tusk says EU will 'not renegotiate the deal'
Donald Tusk, the president of the European council, has just posted this on Twitter. He says the EU will not “renegotiate the deal”.

But it will discuss what it can do “to facilitate UK ratification”, he says. That means, I think, “do what it can do help May win the vote”.
I cannot see May winning a delayed vote with the backstop still in it. The EU might throw TM a few small bones but I can't see the backstop being pulled or significantly watered down.

It would be a major concession if the EU were willing to give the UK an unconditional "out" from the BS so I cannot see this happening. It would require the EU to trust in the good faith of future Governments not to abuse such an option.

---------- Post added at 19:23 ---------- Previous post was at 19:23 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 35974665)
Thats enough of that, back to the topic, before I start dealing out warnings - ALL of you.
Thanks for dealing with this. It has gone on too long ...

jfman 10-12-2018 19:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35974662)
What does this post mean? Any idiot can post just Smilies, try to say something useful for a change ..
Now now, that’s beyond their limited capability.

It’s obvious I’m a dunce. I mean I’ve only been predicting things accurately for the entire time I’ve been posting in this thread.

The longer this crisis goes on we have an extension, a referendum and a real possibility of remain. I can understand people are uncomfortable with my predictions, it’s perhaps more worrying that they’re quite good.

djfunkdup 10-12-2018 19:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 35974665)
Thats enough of that, back to the topic, before I start dealing out warnings - ALL of you.
I said my last post before i saw your post lol :) It's only banter man chill no offence is meant.. :)

ianch99 10-12-2018 19:30
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974671)
Now now, that’s beyond their limited capability.

It’s obvious I’m a dunce. I mean I’ve only been predicting things accurately for the entire time I’ve been posting in this thread.

The longer this crisis goes on we have an extension, a referendum and a real possibility of remain. I can understand people are uncomfortable with my predictions, it’s perhaps more worrying that they’re quite good.
No dunce, your insights are good.

As you say, we are inching towards a second referendum but this could be thwarted by a number of outcomes especially the machinations of the Arch-Leaver Corbyn. He will need more persuasion from the Remain dominated membership he claims to represent.

The thing that is most hard to read is what the Tories will do when TM's vote eventually gets defeated. That is when the fun really starts ..

Pierre 10-12-2018 19:37
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974661)
Pierre can see it coming.
It’s absolutely a possibility and a lot more likely than it was several weeks ago.

It’s the ultimate get out, and the ultimate gamble as a win is by no means certain, although probable. However a Tory whitewash at the last election was probable and that went well.

Damien 10-12-2018 20:01
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35974666)
Don’t kid ourselves that us leaving the EU, will be a bowl of cherries to the EU because it won’t.

It may not be as big an impact as it is to us, but it will be an impact. I’m not going to list everything, but you’re an informed person (apart from what you were originally voting for) so you know.
I still think this is a big error the no deal Brexiters in Parliament are making, to assume that people will stoically get on with no deal.

This is something people will say they'll cope with a lot better than they actually will because imagining it theory is quite different to living the reality. Let's say it's even a quarter as difficult as the crash of 2008 will people be happy that? If inflation from a weaker pound as well as the cost of imports drive prices a lot higher? If wages stagnate and jobs are lost? This is a very mild version of what could happen. If there are literally queues at ports, just in time manufacturing collapses and supply problems for certain imports then it'll quite a lot worse.

If this happens only a minority will go 'this is what we voted for, let's see it though, it will get better', whereas a lot more will blame the politicians. This is why I think it's a lot easier for those who aren't responsible for the country to advocate no deal...

RichardCoulter 10-12-2018 20:11
Re: Brexit
 
It's been announced by the BBC that, due to today's events, there will be a change to the BBC1 schedule at 8:30pm. There will be a special programme regarding Brexit.

jfman 10-12-2018 20:13
Re: Brexit
 
Just what the country needs... the BBC to give us more useless information.

Apparently according to the PM a statement must be made by 21st January outlining the way forward if there’s no deal. This is set in legislation. ;)

denphone 10-12-2018 20:31
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 35974680)
It's been announced by the BBC that, due to today's events, there will be a change to the BBC1 schedule at 8:30pm. There will be a special programme regarding Brexit.
The programme was already factored in to their schedules but alas because the vote has been cancelled until a new date has been given one suspects we might be having another programme possibly sometime in the future on Brexit.

Damien 10-12-2018 20:44
Re: Brexit
 
The BBC should do more about Brexit.

Doctor Who does Brexit
Brexit narrated by David Attenborough
Only Fools and Horses: Brexit Union
Strictly Come Brexit - where each dancer or dancer couple, whatever it is, represents an EU country but try as we might we can't vote out the UK entrant.
Brexit Wars - Like robot wars expect it's Remainers and Brexiters fighting.

All Brexit, all the time. There will never not be Brexit. Brexit! Brexit! Brexit!

TheDaddy 10-12-2018 20:44
Re: Brexit
 
Something is afoot in the commons...

Damien 10-12-2018 20:49
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35974688)
Something is afoot in the commons...
Probably my Brexit idea

---------- Post added at 20:49 ---------- Previous post was at 20:48 ----------

Emergency Debate on Brexit (mostly on the vote being pulled).

It looks like grandstanding. Corbyn doesn't want to rock the boat.

denphone 10-12-2018 20:52
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35974688)
Something is afoot in the commons...


Corbyn launches challenge to May's Brexit vote postponemnt.

The Speaker, John Bercow, allows Corbyn’s application for an emergency debate, saying it is “absolutely proper to be discussed”

Damien 10-12-2018 20:53
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35974691)
Corbyn launches challenge to May's Brexit vote postponemnt.
As far as I can tell it won't force her to hold the vote

denphone 10-12-2018 20:53
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35974692)
As far as I can tell it won't force her to hold the vote
Absolutely.

jfman 10-12-2018 21:02
Re: Brexit
 
It furthers the rhetoric of a constitutional crisis though.

A three hour debate on a Government, already in contempt, in hiding.

Pierre 10-12-2018 21:49
Re: Brexit
 
Corbyn is a prize dick. He keeps on forgetting that to be in government usually means you have to win an election first.

djfunkdup 10-12-2018 22:00
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35974702)
Corbyn is a prize dick. He keeps on forgetting that to be in government usually means you have to win an election first.
He is yes 100% Correct.That's why he is the topman in the labour party .Kinda says it all really ;)

jfman 10-12-2018 22:02
Re: Brexit
 
In fairness, May didn’t. Cameron didn’t (the first time).

He’s as entitled as anyone else to try and control the agenda, our constitution is about who can command a majority in the House. Not which party won the most votes, or the most seats. Although usually that person is from a party that meets both criteria, it’s not a requirement.

Pierre 10-12-2018 22:17
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974704)
In fairness, May didn’t.
No, she did. By 56 votes to be exact. The Tories won that election. They got more votes than any other party.

It it enough for a majority, no. But more than anyone else. However, I agree in this of democracy meaning nothing, who gives a shit?



Quote:
He’s as entitled as anyone else to try and control the agenda,
no he isn’t

He can oppose, moan, offer alternatives for the next election.

But if he wants to govern he has to win an election and a mandate from the people, which hecwas no where near last year and the poles suggest he has made no ground. So no.

Quote:
our constitution is about who can command a majority in the House.
not him then

jfman 10-12-2018 22:25
Re: Brexit
 
He may be able to command a majority on these issues. If it’s obvious the Government can’t.

Are you advocating a one party state for the period between general elections? If not then you are dangerously close.

Chris 10-12-2018 22:57
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974704)
our constitution is about who can command a majority in the House. Not which party won the most votes, or the most seats. Although usually that person is from a party that meets both criteria, it’s not a requirement.
Technically the person asked by Her Maj to form a government is the one most likely to enjoy the confidence of the House of Commons. A majority of MPs being from your party is the surest way to achieve that, but it’s not essential.

RichardCoulter 10-12-2018 23:02
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35974683)
The programme was already factored in to their schedules but alas because the vote has been cancelled until a new date has been given one suspects we might be having another programme possibly sometime in the future on Brexit.
Something else was due to be shown, I can't remember what (Panorama?), but I noticed last night that the V6 had picked this up.

At the end of the programme they said that Corbyn was trying to get the vote to go ahead tomorrow and that some Tory MP's were in agreement with him!

I thought it was a well balanced programme, it broadly reflected many opposing views/points raised on here.

Sephiroth 11-12-2018 07:04
Re: Brexit
 
But the programme didn't deal with the underlying issues around the EU that are getting lost in the political dogfight. To remind:

1. The EU is rigged for the benefit of Germany (Euro) and France (CAP);

2. The UK is the 2nd largest net contributor to the EU budget;

3. "Ever Closer Union" is the EU's mantra = Deutschland über Alles;

4. The perfidious Irish are using the GFA to protect their exports;

5. The Euro is not sufficiently underpinned - see what'll happen when Italy fails;

6. Remember the EU and Greece.

In the meantime Parliament fiddles while Brexit burns.

jfman 11-12-2018 07:16
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35974721)
But the programme didn't deal with the underlying issues around the EU that are getting lost in the political dogfight. To remind:

1. The EU is rigged for the benefit of Germany (Euro) and France (CAP);

2. The UK is the 2nd largest net contributor to the EU budget;

3. "Ever Closer Union" is the EU's mantra = Deutschland über Alles;

4. The perfidious Irish are using the GFA to protect their exports;

5. The Euro is not sufficiently underpinned - see what'll happen when Italy fails;

6. Remember the EU and Greece.

In the meantime Parliament fiddles while Brexit burns.
I always enjoy reading the contradiction that the EU is either weak and crumbling at the same time as being all mighty and powerful, ready to take over the world if we’d don’t stop it now.

Other than that most of your post is highly objectionable. The wartime rhetoric we would be better off without.

1andrew1 11-12-2018 08:27
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974723)
I always enjoy reading the contradiction that the EU is either weak and crumbling at the same time as being all mighty and powerful, ready to take over the world if we’d don’t stop it now.
A bit like the contradiction of sending in Jeremy Corbyn to get a better deal as the friendly approach works better or sending in a Brexiter as a hardline approach will work.:)

Sephiroth 11-12-2018 08:29
Re: Brexit
 
Originally Posted by Sephiroth

But the programme didn't deal with the underlying issues around the EU that are getting lost in the political dogfight. To remind:

1. The EU is rigged for the benefit of Germany (Euro) and France (CAP);

2. The UK is the 2nd largest net contributor to the EU budget;

3. "Ever Closer Union" is the EU's mantra = Deutschland über Alles;

4. The perfidious Irish are using the GFA to protect their exports;

5. The Euro is not sufficiently underpinned - see what'll happen when Italy fails;

6. Remember the EU and Greece.

In the meantime Parliament fiddles while Brexit burns.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974723)
I always enjoy reading the contradiction that the EU is either weak and crumbling at the same time as being all mighty and powerful, ready to take over the world if we’d don’t stop it now.

Other than that most of your post is highly objectionable. The wartime rhetoric we would be better off without.
This is where you show your true irritating colours. You are the one deploying rhetoric with your "wartime" observation.

You are obstinately refusing to acknowledge what is right before your very eyes. Everything I've written in my post is true.

As to your ridiculous assertion of a contradiction in my words - the EU is indeed a particularly vulnerable edifice due to the lack of substance in the Euro beyond the Bank of Germany. As long as the edifice hasn't crumbled, Germany remains strong and hegemonic within those walls.

There is no doubt, for example, of the CAP being an institution designed for France's benefit to the detriment of the other agro-countries.

There is no doubt of the CFP being in everyone's interest except the UK's - stuff given away by our preposterous politicians in the past.

Macron has shown his true colours by threatening to keep us in the Backstop if we don't let him into our fishing waters big time.

Varadkar is a perfidious schemer, cynically using the GFA to protect his economic interests (and his political future). He forgets that we immediately came to Ireland's rescue in 2008 with a low interest £7 billion loan at the time of the economic crash.

How dare you describe my facts as objectionable.


jfman 11-12-2018 08:35
Re: Brexit
 
None of what you post is true. We get it, you don’t like the Germans because of World War 2, or the Irish for gaining their independence from the Empire.

However these outdated views of the world are irrelevant today, when economic co-operation and trade are for the mutual benefit of everyone. However we miss the good old days when we wrote the rules, and Britannia ruled the waves.

Those days are gone. Long gone.

Damien 11-12-2018 08:43
Re: Brexit
 
We are not at war, have some perspective here. Nothing about this is World War 2. People are not dying en-masse and we are not facing a existential threat.

EU or not Britain needs to view it's future and the world outside of the prism of WW2 and Empire.

jfman 11-12-2018 08:48
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35974731)
We are not at war, have some perspective here. Nothing about this is World War 2. People are not dying en-masse and we are not facing a existential threat.

EU or not Britain needs to view it's future and the world outside of the prism of WW2 and Empire.
Unfortunately it has proven itself incapable. The world owes us something for nothing, we deserve to be returned to our rightful place.

What we forget many of the war crimes and genocides committed in the name of empire, and the destruction of economies to serve our own.

techguyone 11-12-2018 08:57
Re: Brexit
 
I think you'll find the 'Empire ' is long gone, you just seeemd to be poised for an excuse to roll out the 'evil Empire' chesnut, yet all that Seph posted is fact and current, not a remnant from Victorias time.

You need to give your head a wobble pal, you're out of order, stick to the topic which is BREXIT not some bs about your biased and jaundiced views of the evils of the British Empire :rolleyes:

Sephiroth 11-12-2018 09:08
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974730)
None of what you post is true. We get it, you don’t like the Germans because of World War 2, [SEPH]: Rubbish. I like Germans. I don't like German political hegemony, taking advantage of the EU institutions.

or the Irish for gaining their independence from the Empire. [SEPH]: Rubbish. I've never said anything of the sort nor implied it. I'm criticising the perfidious Varadkar, not the lovely Irish people.

However these outdated views of the world are irrelevant today, when economic co-operation and trade are for the mutual benefit of everyone. [SEPH]: The EU is not a mutual benefit society. It is a Franco-German domination machine which you can see before your very eyes. Btw, neither is the EU the "world" as you have ascribed to my views.


However we miss the good old days when we wrote the rules, and Britannia ruled the waves. [SEPH]: Irrelevant rhetoric.

Those days are gone. Long gone.


---------- Post added at 09:08 ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974732)
Unfortunately it has proven itself incapable. The world owes us something for nothing, we deserve to be returned to our rightful place.

What we forget many of the war crimes and genocides committed in the name of empire, and the destruction of economies to serve our own.
I'm glad we've brought out your true colours for everyone to see.

Brexit is an excellent idea, to rid ourselves of being bound to a corrupt, hegemonic institution.

And since you mention war crimes .....

Mr K 11-12-2018 09:11
Re: Brexit
 
Love your neighbour Seph old chap, they aren't 'all out to get us' with their perfidious hegemony.....

---------- Post added at 09:11 ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 ----------

Can see where this is all going, delay as long as possible, so there is only one deal or chaos possible. Risky strategy...

jfman 11-12-2018 09:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35974736)


---------- Post added at 09:08 ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 ----------



I'm glad we've brought out your true colours for everyone to see.

Brexit is an excellent idea, to rid ourselves of being bound to a corrupt, hegemonic institution.

And since you mention war crimes .....
It’s hardly my true colours to recognise the tainted history of our country. If we think we will go out to the world who will welcome us with open arms we have another thing coming.

As far as your posts go Germany is in it for itself, Macron is in it for himself, Varadkar is in it for himself.

Why won’t the rest of the world be in it for itself? Because it will bow to our Anglo-Saxon superiority?

Your misunderstanding appears to be that capitalism creates rational actors looking to achieve some kind of economic edge. Any collective involves sacrifice by some for a greater total gain. In our case the gain is easy access to a workforce our businesses rely upon and a market to sell goods into.

Germany is by far the biggest net contributor to the EU and you seem to think it should have less influence, yet we give Ireland a low interest loan and it should do our bidding? The inconsistencies are staggering.

papa smurf 11-12-2018 10:10
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35974740)
Love your neighbour Seph old chap, they aren't 'all out to get us' with their perfidious hegemony.....

---------- Post added at 09:11 ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 ----------

Can see where this is all going, delay as long as possible, so there is only one deal or chaos possible. Risky strategy...
Meaningful vote on the 28 march ?

djfunkdup 11-12-2018 11:38
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35974749)
Meaningful vote on the 28 march ?

:D:D:D:D

lightmyfire 11-12-2018 11:59
Re: Brexit
 
So I voted out. Not because I have any issues with any of the people in Europe but because I would prefer the MOD EDIT. in our Parliament control our destiny rather than those in Brussels. Worryingly though the standard of front bench politics (there are a lot of great back benchers of all parties) is the worse I have ever seen. What with these pathetic lot in power and no viable alternative I do worry about our future.

But the most frightening thing to me is the subliminal indoctrination that media/social media are ramming down our throats because it is against all of their interests for us to get out.

Totally agree that no one owes us anything in this world and it is going to be a tough slog.

BUT - as someone who studied Economics and how we labeled the Agricultural and Industrial revolutions maybe we are looking at the next phase, call it the Service Sector Revolution and maybe we should be pioneering in that.

p.s. some great comments on this thread by the way

MOD EDIT - do not use asterisks to avoid the site swear filter. This is against Site T&Cs. Repetition will invoke the infraction system.

1andrew1 11-12-2018 12:07
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightmyfire (Post 35974756)
So I voted out. Not because I have any issues with any of the people in Europe but because I would prefer the MOD EDIT.in our Parliament control our destiny rather than those in Brussels. Worryingly though the standard of front bench politics (there are a lot of great back benchers of all parties) is the worse I have ever seen. What with these pathetic lot in power and no viable alternative I do worry about our future.

But the most frightening thing to me is the subliminal indoctrination that media/social media are ramming down our throats because it is against all of their interests for us to get out.

Totally agree that no one owes us anything in this world and it is going to be a tough slog.

BUT - as someone who studied Economics and how we labeled the Agricultural and Industrial revolutions maybe we are looking at the next phase, call it the Service Sector Revolution and maybe we should be pioneering in that.

p.s. some great comments on this thread by the way
We are pioneering in the service sector but without access to the EU single market and customs union this sector will not be as strong; as we're seeing with TV broadcasters like Discovery and investment banks like Citibank moving some of their operations out of the UK.

---------- Post added at 12:07 ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35974749)
Meaningful vote on the 28 march ?
lol, I wouldn't be totally shocked if this was the case!

Sephiroth 11-12-2018 12:16
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974747)
It’s hardly my true colours to recognise the tainted history of our country. If we think we will go out to the world who will welcome us with open arms we have another thing coming.

As far as your posts go Germany is in it for itself, Macron is in it for himself, Varadkar is in it for himself.

Why won’t the rest of the world be in it for itself? Because it will bow to our Anglo-Saxon superiority?

Your misunderstanding appears to be that capitalism creates rational actors looking to achieve some kind of economic edge. Any collective involves sacrifice by some for a greater total gain. In our case the gain is easy access to a workforce our businesses rely upon and a market to sell goods into.

Germany is by far the biggest net contributor to the EU and you seem to think it should have less influence, yet we give Ireland a low interest loan and it should do our bidding? The inconsistencies are staggering.
Your incorrect inferences are insulting.

jfman 11-12-2018 12:23
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35974761)
Your incorrect inferences are insulting.
Please specify which for clarity.

denphone 11-12-2018 12:44
Re: Brexit
 
Sir John Major has criticised the “breathtaking ignorance” of hard Brexiters and self-described “unionists” over the Irish border and the backstop.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...b01d1e859e90ad

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-nor...sir-john-major

Quote:
“We should never forget that the Troubles began in the 1960s with the murder of customs officials at the north-south border,” he told guests at the inaugural Albert Memorial lecture in Longford, Ireland.
Quote:
Those who mock and disparage the backstop should reflect on the risks of destroying it and stop relying on uninvented fanciful alternatives that for now exist absolutely nowhere.
Quote:
The reckless few ... are in a clear minority and for good reason.

Sephiroth 11-12-2018 12:48
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974762)
Please specify which for clarity.
No need. Realms of the bleedin’ obvious.

Whilst I’m on, the British ‘tainted history’ to which you refer precedes the rather more recent tainted history of some other European countries. We abolished slavery before most others; our colonies up to the point of their release, were all left with roads, power, fresh water, administration and justice.

We are debating in this thread the release of the UK from the EU. Some might say that Brexit avoids a tainted future. I say that the way the EU is heading is anti-democratic and we would be well off being outside their structures.

Dave42 11-12-2018 12:52
Re: Brexit
 
Downing Street says Brexit vote will be held before 21 January

https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-m...eline-11577620

denphone 11-12-2018 13:00
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35974766)
Downing Street says Brexit vote will be held before 21 January

https://news.sky.com/story/theresa-m...eline-11577620
Just like they stated yesterday morning but then again the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing Dave.

jfman 11-12-2018 13:04
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35974765)
No need. Realms of the bleedin’ obvious.

Whilst I’m on, the British ‘tainted history’ to which you refer precedes the rather more recent tainted history of some other European countries. We abolished slavery before most others; our colonies up to the point of their release, were all leftvwithbroads, power, fresh water, administration and justice.

We are debating in this theead the release of the UK from the EU. Some might say that Brexit avoids a tainted future. I say that the way the EU is heading is anti-demicratic and we would be well off being outside their structures.
It isn’t obvious, and the fact you can’t present a single example indicates you may be exaggerating.

I’m not sure all of the colonies feel like our involvement benefited them to the degree you do. We continue to this day to engage in warfare, directly and indirectly, for our own financial interests. I’m sure the people of Yemen appreciate the manufacturing quality, and of course the British spirit of fair play, as the Saudis drop our bombs on them.

Europe has an embarrassing and tragic history, of which nobody can be proud. To claim we are somehow exempt from this is historical revisionism in the extreme.

Indeed, our “justice” didn’t extend to our closest neighbour in the crimes committed in Ireland. The UK government have been complicit in the murder of civilians and journalists - so do not dare suggest we are untainted by modern history as the evidence suggests otherwise.

---------- Post added at 13:04 ---------- Previous post was at 13:03 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35974767)
Just like they stated yesterday morning but then again the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing Dave.
There’s the date of the no confidence vote (if required).

RichardCoulter 11-12-2018 13:05
Re: Brexit
 
It has been argued by Remainers that the existence of the EU has actually helped to prevent war as it would be very difficult to declare war on a fellow member!

Not sure what I think of the idea of an EU army, would this involve a new army being created and paid for by member states or would the existing armies of each country be transferred over to working for the EU? Would this be full or part time (like footballers working for their own club and playing for England). Would the EU have the final say over our troops?

Would the idea of having extra troops at our disposal make us safer? What are the main concerns of those who oppose this idea? Would it only be used to protect member states from outside forces or could it be used for situations like Iraq?

denphone 11-12-2018 13:11
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974768)
It isn’t obvious, and the fact you can’t present a single example indicates you may be exaggerating.

I’m not sure all of the colonies feel like our involvement benefited them to the degree you do. We continue to this day to engage in warfare, directly and indirectly, for our own financial interests. I’m sure the people of Yemen appreciate the manufacturing quality, and of course the British spirit of fair play, as the Saudis drop our bombs on them.

Europe has an embarrassing and tragic history, of which nobody can be proud. To claim we are somehow exempt from this is historical revisionism in the extreme.

Indeed, our “justice” didn’t extend to our closest neighbour in the crimes committed in Ireland. The UK government have been complicit in the murder of civilians and journalists - so do not dare suggest we are untainted by modern history as the evidence suggests otherwise.
Britain has done some great things in his history of that there is no doubt but it tends to have 'historical amnesia' when when it comes to the country’s colonial past.

heero_yuy 11-12-2018 13:28
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Quote from RichardCoulter:


Would it only be used to protect member states from outside forces or could it be used for situations like Iraq?
Put down anti-EU riots more like. :erm:

Sephiroth 11-12-2018 13:54
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 35974770)
It has been argued by Remainers that the existence of the EU has actually helped to prevent war as it would be very difficult to declare war on a fellow member!

Not sure what I think of the idea of an EU army, would this involve a new army being created and paid for by member states or would the existing armies of each country be transferred over to working for the EU? Would this be full or part time (like footballers working for their own club and playing for England). Would the EU have the final say over our troops?

Would the idea of having extra troops at our disposal make us safer? What are the main concerns of those who oppose this idea? Would it only be used to protect member states from outside forces or could it be used for situations like Iraq?
A federal army only works if, like the USA, it has a federal chain of command.

If the EU makes this army before it politically federalises (like they did with the Euro), there will be the risk of 27 countries (or 28 if we remain) having different interests to protect.

Also, if we remain and eschew 'ever closer union' then we would also eschew being within the EU army structure; or would we? It would be a mess whether or not we remain.

I believe that the peace was kept not because of the EU but because of the sheer horror of what preceded it and the lack of need to go to war. I suppose it could be argued that the EEC (not the EU, though) provided a peaceable platform and I support that. It is the morph into the EU to which I object and particularly how Germany is top dog and their running dog, the French government, is tagging onto Germany's tail with a bark louder than their bite.

RichardCoulter 11-12-2018 13:59
Re: Brexit
 
This video 'Leaked footage from inside 10 Downing Street' has been uploaded to YouTube:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjp5OmoDYQM

Sephiroth 11-12-2018 13:59
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35974773)
Britain has done some great things in his history of that there is no doubt but it tends to have 'historical amnesia' when when it comes to the country’s colonial past.
I don't think so. Colonial guilt prevails particularly when African countries play the colonial card.

As I said, we were first in abolition of slavery and we ran highly civilised administrations in our colonies especially when you view what many of them are like now.

I also remind that we took in the East African Asians in the 1970s when the post-colonial governments persecuted them and drove them out. India refused to take them. This is one of the great things that the UK has done in its history.

techguyone 11-12-2018 14:03
Re: Brexit
 
I don't get why we need a Euro Army at all, we have NATO is this some way to avoid paying the NATO costs?

Stephen 11-12-2018 14:05
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 35974770)
It has been argued by Remainers that the existence of the EU has actually helped to prevent war as it would be very difficult to declare war on a fellow member!

Not sure what I think of the idea of an EU army, would this involve a new army being created and paid for by member states or would the existing armies of each country be transferred over to working for the EU? Would this be full or part time (like footballers working for their own club and playing for England). Would the EU have the final say over our troops?

Would the idea of having extra troops at our disposal make us safer? What are the main concerns of those who oppose this idea? Would it only be used to protect member states from outside forces or could it be used for situations like Iraq?
Well according to Trump's tweet from a few days ago, he already seems to think there is/was an EU army lmao.

denphone 11-12-2018 14:12
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35974795)
As I said, we were first in abolition of slavery and we ran highly civilised administrations in our colonies especially when you view what many of them are like now.
Just because we were the first to abolish slavery does not make it right in any way.

Stuart 11-12-2018 14:13
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35974721)
But the programme didn't deal with the underlying issues around the EU that are getting lost in the political dogfight. To remind:

1. The EU is rigged for the benefit of Germany (Euro) and France (CAP);

2. The UK is the 2nd largest net contributor to the EU budget;

3. "Ever Closer Union" is the EU's mantra = Deutschland über Alles;

4. The perfidious Irish are using the GFA to protect their exports;

5. The Euro is not sufficiently underpinned - see what'll happen when Italy fails;

6. Remember the EU and Greece.

In the meantime Parliament fiddles while Brexit burns.
If you want facts, I'd like to point out to you that as a percentage of our income, the UK was the lowest contributor to the EU. See, I can use the same table from the BBC website you appear to have used.

As for the rest, I'd argue most of it is opinion , apart from the problems with the Euro (which I have never been a fan of).

As for the Irish, you appear to be blaming them for using the law to protect their own exports. Isn't that what any government should do? Also, should they accept an outside government they didn't vote for coming in to tell them what to do? Bear in mind that to the Irish, that is exactly what the UK government is. An outside organisation that they didn't vote for.

denphone 11-12-2018 14:17
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35974795)
I don't think so. Colonial guilt prevails particularly when African countries play the colonial card.

As I said, we were first in abolition of slavery and we ran highly civilised administrations in our colonies especially when you view what many of them are like now.

I also remind that we took in the East African Asians in the 1970s when the post-colonial governments persecuted them and drove them out. India refused to take them. This is one of the great things that the UK has done in its history.
Read this book and it might enlighten your thinking.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inglorious-...lorious+Empire

jfman 11-12-2018 15:11
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35974804)
Just because we were the first to abolish slavery does not make it right in any way.
Indeed, being the first to abolish something isn’t absolution for participating in the first place. A stain on our history glorified in many of the historic buildings and statues our cities.

techguyone 11-12-2018 15:53
Re: Brexit
 
I wish a mod would step in and curb all this OT bs, I'm sure they could start a 'the evil of the British Empire' thread without derailing a BREXIT one.

Sephiroth 11-12-2018 16:10
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35974804)
Just because we were the first to abolish slavery does not make it right in any way.
Two things.

1. Time moves forward and humanity tries things at a particular point in time.

2. Nobody is justifying past slavery. We're glad it was abolished by civilised countries.



---------- Post added at 16:10 ---------- Previous post was at 16:07 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart (Post 35974805)
If you want facts, I'd like to point out to you that as a percentage of our income, the UK was the lowest contributor to the EU. See, I can use the same table from the BBC website you appear to have used.
[SEPH]: The headline ranking - cash - which is what the EU counts was as I stated.

As for the rest, I'd argue most of it is opinion , apart from the problems with the Euro (which I have never been a fan of).

As for the Irish, you appear to be blaming them for using the law to protect their own exports. Isn't that what any government should do? Also, should they accept an outside government they didn't vote for coming in to tell them what to do? Bear in mind that to the Irish, that is exactly what the UK government is. An outside organisation that they didn't vote for.
[SEPH]: Total rubbish. Of course they are entitled to look after their own interests. But on a sham basis? Which is what they are doing.

Damien 11-12-2018 16:14
Re: Brexit
 
Let's leave the British Empire to another time or thread

Dave42 11-12-2018 16:15
Re: Brexit
 
Beth Rigby just said on sky news they think the 48 letters are in


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Confidence vote watch. I know it’s a dangerous game to play and Sir Graham is keeper of the list. But my ERG sources pretty confident now that 48 trigger been breached. Of course Sir Graham won’t announce while PM out of country - and we’ve been here before. But mood hardening

jfman 11-12-2018 17:46
Re: Brexit
 
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-leave-backers

With the huge health warning that it’s polling data, and the Guardian, but if representative of the country as a whole the great nudge is working.

Sephiroth 11-12-2018 18:01
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974825)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-leave-backers

With the huge health warning that it’s polling data, and the Guardian, but if representative of the country as a whole the great nudge is working.
I commend the article (accepting the health warning). A passage I'd pick out bearing in mind the first thrust of the article is that diehard support for Brexit is on the wane:

However, the study also found support for a second referendum had slipped slightly since June and a majority were deeply concerned about the prospect of no deal.

jfman 11-12-2018 18:07
Re: Brexit
 
I did spot that, the problem being a second referendum doesn’t need a majority of the public to want one, only Parliament to legislate for it.

What’d be curious, and I accept highly unlikely, is if leave voters boycotted the referendum. It’d be a legally enacted referendum with no real legitimacy. To lose 52-48 would demonstrably be a shift in public opinion, but what if you couldn’t measure a shift at all?

pip08456 11-12-2018 18:34
Re: Brexit
 
Those going on about British Callonialism and empire should also consider this.

Quote:
French colonialism in Vietnam lasted more than six decades. By the late 1880s, the French controlled Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, which were collectively referred to as Indochine Français (French Indochina). Indochina became one of France’s most lucrative colonial possessions. It was part of a French empire that spanned northern and western Africa, as well as islands in the Caribbean and the Pacific. To justify their imperialism, the French developed their own principle called the mission civilisatrice (or ‘civilising mission’). It was, in effect, a French form of the English ‘white man’s burden’. French imperialists claimed it was their responsibility to colonise undeveloped regions in Africa and Asia, to introduce modern political ideas, social reforms, industrial methods and new technologies. Without European intervention, these places would remain backward, uncivilised and impoverished. The mission civilisatrice was a facade: the real motive for French colonialism was profit and economic exploitation. French imperialism was driven by a demand for resources, raw materials and cheap labour. The development of colonised nations was scarcely considered, except where it happened to benefit French interests.
I wonder what the Dutch East India company did?

Oh sorry you were only talking about the British Empire whilst ignoring all the rest at the time.

Oh bugger, I'm going to have to flail myself for what someone else's forefathers has done. My dad didn't have any say in it.

BTW neither did my grandad or any member of my family. We knew our place.

jfman 11-12-2018 18:47
Re: Brexit
 
Nobody said there weren’t issues with other countries colonising either, simply that Britain wasn’t whiter than white in its illustrious history of war crimes, genocide, internment, slavery, etc. Only pointing out you can’t point to others history without considering our own.

I’m sure there was a moderator request on this somewhere...

pip08456 11-12-2018 19:16
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35974838)
Nobody said there weren’t issues with other countries colonising either, simply that Britain wasn’t whiter than white in its illustrious history of war crimes, genocide, internment, slavery, etc. Only pointing out you can’t point to others history without considering our own.

I’m sure there was a moderator request on this somewhere...
Mod Edit - insult removed. Repetion of this wil invoke infractions

I would never excuse what happened over the last couple of hundred years.

Could I ask how far you wish to go back because I'd be really interested from your POV.

The War of the Roses?
The 100 year war?
Where do you want to start so I can know when to start repenting?
Oh I forgot the crusades and all that happened then!


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