Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks. Am sure it was full of grammatical errors but I figured now we have had it clarified that the Home Office view this as firmly being up to the police to investigate (and in my opinion the Home Office is abdicating its duty to ensure the police apply the law in this case) I figured it was time to finish the letter so that hopefully we get some kind of written response from them this time. If others send letters too then maybe they will do something.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ElReg has been slow to update the comments this afternoon, i smell a big news story being written by chis ;)

its also werth noting charles hasnt been updating the Phorm stories since the PIA, now that is interesting given all the new information we have supplyed him with,MP's,MEP's Alexander's Click! posts, the ElReg story,ORG,LBT etc.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not sure if this has been posted before .. this is such a huge thread to look through now ..

This blogger has posted loads of questions to Phorm, and got answers .. 52 of 'em ..

http://www.politicalpenguin.org.uk/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've forwarded the FIPR links to technology correspondents Charles Arthur of the Guardian (direct email) and Rory Cellan-Jones of the BBC via the BBC news site feedback page - might as well get mainstream as quickly as possible.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yes, its a shame he's on a perental Sevatical as he could have been very useful in getting the house and the westminster village to respond....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks - I did not tell them I would post it here, but I will now. I have used your wording and asked for a more meaningful answer... Let's see what we get - maybe they will allow me to post the reply in full as I have said I will...

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

charles always worrys me though,and its not "assumption" as he puts it, his actions or rather lack of actions other than trying to keep up with chris at ElReg by rehashing old Phorm links etc, dont match up with this recent comments.

his opportune putdown of kurt at the PIA not withstanding OC, but he doesnt seem to be trying to hard in this must important issue for some reason.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...eed=technology
"Some blogger'
Except not quite. On a ZDNet discussion, one commenter said:
"Isn't it interesting that it is some blogger that actually engages in true investigative journalism. The big news houses like ZDNet, ComputerWorld, etc. simply re-printed press releases. Methinks the small mammals are going to outlive the aging, soon to be extinct dinosaurs."

"Some blogger"? Jings.

It's nice to have the situation so perfectly described in reverse. OK, so I pointed out Psystar's bizarre changes of address on a blog, but it's still the Guardian's blog, not my back room. (Not that there was a press release, either; only a few lines on Mac Rumors, and the Psystar website itself.)

It's a worrying trend, though, this assumption that newspapers can't and won't do "real journalism" (what one could describe as "finding out something readers don't yet know").

To be honest, the reverse is true. Most non-journalist bloggers don't have the time or inclination to imagine the necessary mischief required to do journalism day in, day out. Because non-routine journalism is about finding, or causing, trouble.
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have raised this and other discrepancies with the FSA both by e-mail and by letter, especially considering that Neil Berkett's office has assured me that any implementation of Phorm is not a foregone conclusion.

I will be interested to see what the FSA have to say about Lynne Millar's comments.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

before you do publish assuming he doesnt stop you , just mung the email address so its human readable but not bot pullable, we dont want them spamed with non ISP/Phorm questions now do we ;)

---------- Post added at 20:20 ---------- Previous post was at 20:03 ----------

heres one everyone seemed to miss
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/..._hang_out.html
Letting it all hang out

A host of details about our personal lives are available on the net - but more often than not we are willing victims of this privacy invasion

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just read the FIPR document. It's dynamite!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In which case I wonder how the previous Attorney General was in a position to call off the Serious Fraud Office's investigation into bribery and corruption after evidence emerged that payments totalling £1bn over more than a decade had been made by BAE to Prince Bandar in the £43bn Al Yamamah arms deal.

They claim they are the Government's legal advisors, so what are they going to do about it? I will have a think about this, but I don't think they can let themselves off the hook quite so easily.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If she read the report would she be living up to her name ;)

The report made my day.

---------- Post added at 20:54 ---------- Previous post was at 20:37 ----------

Just a thought.

If the phorm system is found to be illegal.

Then can the ISP's be charged with the intent to commit a criminal act., just by having the PHORM kit installed.?

If that is the case then all 3 ISP's can be charged and brought to book on this matter.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i dont know how i missed this direct letter to Jacqui
http://www.fipr.org/080423holetter.pdf
FOUNDATION FOR INFORMATION POLICY RESEARCH

Dear Secretary of State,

The Phorm “Webwise” System

Interception of Communications

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What brainless idiot did this? You might find it amusing, but it totally undermines the validity of the petition. You might just as well have signed it Micky Mouse or Donald Duck.

If I had known that it would be corrupted like this I'd have had second thoughts about signing it myself!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.fipr.org/080423phormlegal.pdf

Oh dear. Oh deary, deary me. Now we're smokin'...:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What's this, FIPR confirming my own legal analysis of Phorm which was written weeks ago??? Shock! Horror! Someone fetch Zorro!

Evening all ;)

Haven't finished reading FIPR document yet but I am digesting it as we speak. None of it is news for me as I already reached the same conclusions some time ago, but it is nice to see FIPR taking on the HO again and of course releasing the document to the public.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

PC? Politically Correct?

What a concise and beautiful piece of backside kicking.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another stick of dynamite!

I'm enjoying my light reading tonight.:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The "Rt Hon" indicates Privy Council, don't know if they also get letters after the name though.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

*slaps forehead* Yes, that will be it. Thanks for reminding me. Lack of tea since coming back to the hangar.

*goes and puts the kettle on*

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Damn I wish had seen those links before I posted my letter to the Computer Crime Unit. I could have included them in the letter. If anyone is gonna send letters to them too please make sure to include the link to the open letter from FIPR to jacqui smith and also the full legal analysis paper too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Might just let the Shadow Home Secretary know too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yep - another data/privacy issue HMG makes a mess of. And a particularly error prone part of HMG at that!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just checked.

My MP (David Howarth, Lib Dem) isn't on there, so I've just emailed him via www.writetothem.com.

Hopefully he'll sign it, especially as the sponsor is a fellow LD & various big name LDs have signed it. Plus he signed the last EDM I asked him to do.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've just been reading Richard Clayton's analysis and found:

Does this mean that if in Firefox we used Modify Headers 0.6.4 we could defeat the system? Pretending to be Safari would be a good first step!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A bit simpler is User Agent Switcher

List of user agent strings (including Safari) here...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK, this is an email I just sent to Mr Bohm with regards to his analysis (which I have now read and thoroughly enjoyed):

(emphasis added).

I am hoping Nicholas will be able to provide some insight with regards my concerns which I have highlighted in bold in the above copy of the email. I will keep you all posted.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

E-mail sent.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The name at the bottom of the BT PR sheet got back to me and was not in a position to answer technical questions, and so asked me to e-mail any queries. Below is the (redacted) e-mail I sent. If BT allow, I shall post the responses.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a quick update on Click. I got an email from Dan Simmons part of which I quote below:

That's BBC News24.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think the 80/20 video of the London meeting is now pie in the sky.

Regardless of feelings about 80/20, would it be a good idea for people to post key points of their recollections of the parts of the meeting that are missing from the good Captains own record?

Not so many days ago members were agreeing to 'wait for the pro video' regarding these areas, but I don't think it's going to happen. Phorm legal threats perhaps?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm don't have any grounds for legal threats as the meeting was open to the public and therefore the video can legitimately be released to the public domain. Furthermore they were fully aware that the meeting was being recorded officially and that members of the public had been invited to bring video recording equipment with them. There was even a footnote on the Event announcement on 80/20T's web site reiterating that there would be video recording equipment present at the meeting.

I trust Simon to be good for his word with regards the official video, so I will continue to wait for it's release.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

At the risk of being throttled (again), any idea why we've not heard from Simon of late? Contrary to opinion, I rather enjoyed his frank contributions to this thread.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have heard from Nicholas Bohm who tells me that formal responsibility for RIPA lies with the DPP who therefore might be a better port of call.

I will have a look at this tomorrow, but in the mean time here's their contact link - http://www.cps.gov.uk/contact/index.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

All I know is what I picked up last Tuesday after the meeting. Gus mentioned they were off to Italy the following day but he didn't indicate how long for. I can only assume that they are still out of the country on business.

Let's not forget post production takes time. Even the BBC won't be airing the Click show recorded yesterday until 4th May which is 11 days away and isn't anything like as much video footage shot at the public meeting. It has only been 8 days since the public meeting and it is fair to assume that the post production work required is significant especially when you consider that the venue was not designed to be used as a film studio.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here's a link to a PDF of the BT document.

BT and Phorm

It's the same one posted to unicus (#2550)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Regarding the 80/20 video, my feeling is that there is no valid reason for delay.

Nobody is asking for broadcast quality. It's supposed to be a complete record, so there is no need for 'editorial' arguments or seeking permission to publish it. A pro company was employed to produce it so there should be no competance issues.

Somebody is delaying it and it's not as if they have to wait for a time-slot in the schedule.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks. Incidentally, imho there is an obvious parallel between your dissertation and the FIPR report; even though the 'independent' support is useful, I think you can at least claim to have been the catalyst :).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As I explained after I returned from the event last week, they used 2 cameras to shoot the event with a single, separate audio recording. Their reason for this was to avoid audio sync issues between the cameras. They explained to me after the event (at the gathering) that they would produce a complete video of the entire event based on the audio but in order to produce the best video possible they would be cutting the film from both cameras in order to splice together a complete video from the parts.

This is almost 3 hours of footage per camera (so almost 6 hours combined) so the post production work on the film is already a significant task. Also Lecture Theatres are designed to amplify and carry voices so I expect there is a great deal of cleaning required on the audio to erase background noise which would effect the quality of the recording.

I am trying to be objective on this and as such I believe it is important to consider the above points.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Mark,

If you have a search under my user name I posted up my best recollections of the meeting. If you have got any specific questions I will trawl through the memorybanks and see if I can remember anything of use

---------- Post added at 00:04 ---------- Previous post was at 00:01 ----------

Alexander,

at the risk of repeating many other posters. Thank you and well done.

More generally lets keep the pressure up

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I miss simons comments tbh ill be drinking tea and quaffing rich tea biscuits here waiting for this video strange the delay though :(.

I think that the report said that even if users did consent then the isp's would be liabel alexander as they couldnt rely on who issued the consent and was still illegal for a number of reasons even if they denied it the isp's dont know what the phorm kit and software actually does.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is an awful lot of hiss on the videos so audio clean up may well be an issue. 360 minutes of video at 30 frames per second... lack of tea slows my brain down... editing that lot might not be as easy as I might have thought.

I'd love to see the footage of the group Q&A so of course I want it posted quickly. It's a bit frustrating that it isn't online yet given how quickly this issue moves.

Equally it was important (from my perspective) that the footage I got be posted online as soon as I could manage so that Phorm realise that we who challenge Phorm deserve to and will be taken seriously. As soon as Alexander spoke at the meeting I think Kent realised this wasn't just a case of an academic and a few geeks being a pain in the rear.

Time for lights out here in the hangar.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

(Just catching up a bit)

Alexanders question about demographic targeting is a good one - though not one likely to be answered by Phorm. As a prospective OIX client it would be one of the questions at the top of my list. Many products are region specific and so is the marketing. I can see only two ways to do it, IP geolocation or send the wire-tapped exchange ID along with the rest of the "anonymous" package. Of course, depending on the size of the exchange, this begins to look remarkably like an IP address itself <ISP>.<exchange>.<user>. Take my VM address - 192.168.1.1 : 192.168(Phorm VM block) .1(Phorm exchange ID) .1(Phorm user id). This option seems just a short hop from having my real IP address - perhaps I should RFC my new found PIP address?

I was very disappointed to read the Amazon reply. I really don't see what Amazon get from the deal. They obviously get "targeted" advertising but, given that anyone that has been anywhere near the Inter-tubes knows Amazon anyway, is it worth it? Phorm on the other hand get to watch everything I do on Amazon short of the actual (https) purchase. All that Amazon deliver (searches, also viewed, reviews, shopping cart ... etc) is now available to Phorm to distill and sell me similar products from a competitor. Perhaps I have missed something crucial - I just don't get it.

080423phormlegal : Dynamite. I am only part way through it but it condenses our entire argument, in legal terms at least, into 16 pages. Alexander you are right to look at moving yourself into this area - you certainly have a gift and what BTPhorm and the like fear most - a man with a library card (apologies to avid viewers of "The Wire")


I have been thinking about the issue of "Search engines" (read Google) as outlined in (21). If we view the connection between me and Google as a transaction between two machines (or customer and service) - that is to say remove the internal complexities of the Internet. We end up with a situation where Phorm, with their "man in the middle" attack, get to use Google, and everything that lies behind it, to enhance their own product at no cost. Why develop and build your own search engine when you can simply steal the "end product" of a competitor? Whatever the internal complexities of Google, the "end product" is what matters and if Phorm can simply steal that "end product" directly from "the wires" and, worse still, use it to compete against you why would you ever entertain the idea? Perhaps if Phorm were caught digging up the road outside "Google" in order to install a wire-tap then the "jury" would have a clear view of what is proposed here.

par·a·site
1. Biology An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

Alexander : "This is a significant change in my original academic plans" Like I said in an earlier post (to paraphrase) - I'm here on a Friday night reading RIPA when I could be "down the pub" (thanks BTPhorm). I'm more used to reading up on the internals of a particular IC or hammering out an FPGA - strangely, law now looks easy. As an aside, care to give us the e-mail address(es) of the lecturer(s) that will be dealing with your dissertation? I'm sure they will appreciate the full impact of your work once our comments start to fill their in-boxes.


I have to say that although Phorm is a big (4600+ postings) issue here that I seem to remember Simon pointing out that he (always) has other issues to deal with. Issues, in some cases, that may result in far worse than "targeted advertising" for some poor soul(s). Give the man a chance, he has to prioritise. He may be out there (in the - not in the UK - sense) dealing with something else ATM. If he never comes back to this thread then by all means e-mail him asking why. Just pointing out that just because <xyz> from (for example) Amnesty International can't be here to deal with the "Birmigham one" doesn't mean anything - <xyz> could be in Somalia dealing with the "Mogadishu 10,000".


Anyways - time for bed - can't wait to watch Phorm's share price tomorrow. Even the shorters will be thinking twice now.

Hey that reminds me ....

http://tinyurl.com/2wtg5a/phorm/share.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is an issue I touched on a couple of weeks ago and I published an entry to the denyphorm blog here

It is also mentioned in the Wikipedia entry for Phorm. I have spoken to friends who work both at Google and Microsoft and they are passing along my concerns to the relevant people. I have requested that Google and Microsoft implement an SSL version of their search page to circumvent the Phorm DPI system.

I also made contact with Yahoo and posted a summary of the response here a few dozen pages back.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In all this recent serious debate ,it's nice to find something to change the mood a little ,don't you !.

And when something is opened to the www, then you know there's a tiny chance things like this will happen, unless there are more,i seriously doubt that the petition could be tainted by that one name.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think we should ask for its removal as it isnt a good enough name to share the pages with the good cisitzens of UK.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just had a look. I don't think the danger ATM is alteration. Lets suppose for a moment that you offer consumer related legal advice over the net. I send you a question "what can I do about..." and you send me a reply (ignoring https or payment issues) "You have the following rights.." Phorm, if they were in the consumer law business, don't need to spend one moment studying consumer law they have full access to my question and your (commercially valuable) reply and can use it in any way they see fit. The key issue here is that they propose to place themselves in the intestinal tract of the Internet. Your food is our food. (jeez - I should have gone into marketing)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yes, i agree, it seems very likely that if Alexanders paper didnt exist we would still be seeing them only covering RIPA,and one other, not the multiple laws we got yesturday, so credit were it's due i think ;) wel done.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm has made it into the latest issue of Which? but they don't appear to have understood the issues, pointing us to webwise to switch it off! I've emailed them (below) - not a very complete letter as I'm not sure I understand ripa and dpi etc - so maybe some of you with better minds could write to them as well letters@which.co.uk


"Dear Which?

I was glad to see that concern over Phorm and internet privacy made your ‘Consumer News’ section (May 2008) – however your ‘take action’ box which says we can switch Phorm off makes me concerned that you might not have fully understood what is being proposed.

I am not a computer or legal expert but my understanding of the system is that once active all my ISP traffic would be routed through the Phorm system. Opting out would place a cookie on my computer so that adverts from analysis of my web use would not appear. The problems here are:

a) all my ISP traffic would continue to route through the Phorm system – I will not be able to opt out of this
b) although we are told only general categories of web pages are stored every page I visit would be ‘read’ by Phorm
c) when my security software deletes cookies I would need to opt out again

There are many forums discussing this issue – a very good one can be found here http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12/33628733-virgin-media-phorm-webwise-adverts-updated.html which gives great detail on the legal ramifications and privacy concerns and will explain things much better than I can!

I hope Which? as a consumer champion will look further into the Phorm issue as I and many other people have very grave concerns regarding our internet privacy being taken away. I have posted this letter on the Cableforum thread and hope you will give permission for me to post your reply.

Many thanks"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not sure that I meet the criteria of having a "better mind" but I will add it to my list of people to write to LOL

Yesterday I also posted a letter to the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals. They should receive my letter this morning.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've had a reply this morning from the British Bankers Association, I wrote to them and highlighted the potential of Phorm and how it could affect the new Banking Code.

They thanked me for my concerns, and have passed my letter on to the trade association for internet banking APACS, and have asked them to reply to me directly.

As soon as I hear any more I'll keep you posted.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Theinphormer.co.uk?

Spysites?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I will be keeping a list on privacyonline.org.uk

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have sent the following off to my list of BT managers, and posted also on the BT Beta forum Webwise discussion thread.

Start...
BT have publicly stated their confidence on air, and in print, that the Phorm/Webwise system is legal.
They have equally clearly indicated that in their opinion the secret, initially denied, trials of 2006 and 2007 were legal.

In the light of the latest FIPR thinking on Phorm/Webwise http://www.fipr.org/080423phormlegal.pdf which was published yesterday:

Is Phorm/Webwise legal under RIPA 2000?
Is Phorm/Webwise legal under DPA 1998?
Is Phorm/Webwise legal under Fraud Act 2006?
Is Phorm/Webwise exposing ISP's and their users to civil action when they visit websites such as that operated by the Bank of England?

If BT are confident that the answer to the above four questions is still an unequivocal YES, could we please have a firm starting date for the trials of Webwise that were due in mid-March please? The latest prediction I heard was late April, and it's late April now.

Just to focus the mind - here is the relevant extract of the summary paragraph 4, on the first page of the [latest legal analysis from FIPR (Nicholas Bohm)
http://www.fipr.org/080423phormlegal.pdf

"This paper concludes that deployment by an ISP of the Phorm architecture will
involve the following illegalities (for which ISPs will be primarily liable and for
which Phorm Inc will be liable as an inciter):
• interception of communications, an offence contrary to section 1 of the
Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000
• fraud, an offence contrary to section 1 of the Fraud Act 2006
• unlawful processing of sensitive personal data, contrary to the Data
Protection Act 1998
• risks of committing civil wrongs actionable at the suit of website owners
such as the Bank of England."

If we do not get a firm starting date for the trials, can we assume that their is doubt in the minds of BT about the legality of Phorm/Webwise?

If there is no doubt, then why the continual slippage in that trial starting date?

Or can BT simply repeat the public statements about the legality of Phorm?

You will appreciate that in the light of FIPR's report it is no longer simply a matter of our opinions about what we do and don't like. As BT customers, opted in or opted out, we are alarmed at the prospect of being prosecuted, should BT implement this reputedly illegal technology. With 75% of the country's ISP customers potentially affected this is an extremely serious matter.

Also posted on the only current Webwise discussion thread on BT Beta forums, the Q&A thread having been summarily closed down some weeks ago, also posted on Cableforum discussion forum on the same topic.

Please note that I would like to publish any replies to this email on those forums, removing names if requested.
Finish...

I'll come back with any replies I get.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Won't be around much today (unless things here in the hangar prove easier to fix than I think they might be) but before I get the overalls on I'm wondering why The Register hasn't written anything on these latest developments yet?

I'll be posting a full print out of Nicholas Bohm's document to Neil Berkett some time today.

See you all later.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I expect Chris is working on an article. I will be surprised if we don't see something posted today.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Reply received from Roger Knapman's PA, (UKIP) mostly focussing on an anti-European agenda, as per party line, and rather ignoring the main issues.

Evil
 

Guys this was posted to ADVFN MEssage board for PHRM



Goto article no:
Simon Cawkwell - 24 Apr'08 - 10:16 - 1583 of 1592


Gentlemen,

I have been approached by Phorm's PR person, a Simon Rigby of Citigate Dewe Rogerson.

His purpose is to get me to look favourably at Phorm. But, so far, I cannot. The letter that follows may or may not achieve a reply. If so, I will let this board know.

Simon Cawkwell

24th April 2008

Dear Mr Rigby,

I have not yet got hold of this Dr Richard Clayton who, I think, maintains that Phorm's business is unlawful. If he does, I am in no position to judge whether he is right or not.

I think it inconceivable that some sort of nosey creep should be allowed to inspect other people's mail (and that is true of the state let alone Phorm) merely for commercial advantage. And I cannot imagine that any sane ISP user would take a different view. In that sense, Phorm is, to my mind, completely dead.

The opt-in approach is pretty cheeky. And I see no chance of the average Briton tolerating it.After all, why would any sentient human being permit his private affairs to be inspected even if (allegedly) only to commercial advantage? Will he really accept money to have his inbox cluttered up with presumptuous junk mail? I think that only a penniless subjugated peasant would tolerate it.

The opt-out approach is just outright cheek. Any ISP imposing this obligation upon its customers will deeply damage its business.

Where Phorm may be able successfully to get up people's noses is in other jurisdictions/cultures. I simply do not know.

What have I missed out?

If you read the Charles Stanley note, it is undeniably airy fairy. The Canaccord note is just promotion speak and, therefore, entirely worthless in the eyes of the dispassionate investor.


Yours sincerely,
Simon Cawkwell


its the Famous shorter AKA Evil Knievil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Cawkwell
http://www.financial-gurus.com/gurus...imon-Cawkwell/


Much love.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They are obviously very concerned about their share price. I can't understand why, I mean it has only dropped about 60% in the last 2 months, they should be celebrating; if we had our way they would already be using their options for toilet paper. Also makes you wonder if/how they managed to persuade Charles Stanley to promote them, few quid in his back pocket maybe?

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 11:17 ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 ----------

Bettypoos on iii really makes me laugh:

"They had a really good idea...." the fact that in order for their idea to work they have to break the law seems lost on her.

Tell you what, I have a really good idea to make money quick, maybe Bettypoos can come in on the deal. My plan is, walk into a bank with a shotgun and ask them for all the money in their registers. Should work great. What do you mean it's illegal, it's such a good idea?!?!?!

I bet bettypoos is the one who approached me on the stage directly after the PIA public meeting and claimed only 250 people had signed the PM petition and that I had no right to be at the meeting because I was not representing any official body.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

For some reason when I read bettypoo's posts it grates at me and dumb blonde shouts out...

Maybe she will volunteer to be a trialist for Phorm I mean with all her share dealings phorm would love insider information on which are the best shares to buy to earn a quick buck..

OK enough of that back to target...

See they didn't reply again seems phormukprteam have been downgraded to spy of the year...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

S(he'd) probably just post the bank's entire T&C.... several times :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

bettypoos claims they were at the meeting and since the only members of the fairer sex present were all there from privacy groups, I doubt bettypoos was one of them. So it leads me to the conclusion that bettypoos is male.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just adding Simon Rigby's name to the d-I mean, list of people not to like.

Wouldn't it be a shame if unedited footage of kent slagging off that nice Mr Hanff somehow leaked onto Youtube, Usenet, and a few Bittorrent sites?:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Their name is Brettypoos - nothing to do with betty.

I also have a sneaky suspicion I know them from their description about what they do (I used to work in the very field that they currently do) - and it ties in with their nickname and attitude!

Woudn't that be ironic if their browsing/message board habits gave them away when they were trying to be anonymous! I would laugh!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04...esses_private/

Not Phorm related but you have to wonder what the same court would think of Phorm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Now Alexander - I think you've been spending too much time with Kent Ertugrul. You're getting cynical ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It would be ungentlemanly of me to comment ;)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

These forums can be read without signing in by any guest visitor. Therefore any visitor who is on one of the three ISPs could read any post made on here.

Posts I make on this forum are for the benefit of human readers of these forums only. I do not wish to permit any third party to benefit commercially by intercepting any post I have made on here whilst it is being read.

I have amended my signature accordingly.

Should we all do this on all forums to which we post and which can be viewed by anybody on the internet?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree so I can do it for you since I am not a gentleman :D also not blonde..

Well reading Brettpoos posts why is he comong over as a dumb blonde. :D

Maybe if you know the line of work he is in and feel you know him post a few details on who he is just enough for him to know you can name him from his posts in the thread.. Just to show how anonymous he is..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I did think of doing that - but my name is not Kent - and I don't want to come down to Phorm's level.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just thought it would show them that without the use of IP numbers or access to all surfing habits it is possible to identify someone.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, great shame, I can't wait . . . :D

Actually, if it did turn up on the interweb, I feel it would do far more damage to Phorm than anything else so far . . .

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK I have been spending a little time this morning playing with an idea for a logo for the privacyonline web site. Please note I am not a graphics artist so I have done the best with the little knowledge of vector graphics that I have.

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

What do you all think?

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looks fine to me!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looks great to me too. :tu:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Like it - it does look a bit like Gamespy's logo (or at least what it used to look like, I don't think I've looked at it in about 5 years) though...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

well......given were and when it took place, it not inconceivable that someone had a personal video camera taking footage of the IT show at the time and happened to capture some of the action, if you were there perhaps you might look at your footage.

theres also the potential that the CCTV has captured the action too, perhaps a simple DPA request to the show buildings DPA officer might get some interesting footage.

( and thats without even thinking about the BBCs footage and edited out sequences laying around the edit suite some public spirited egineer might happen to find on a usb key/HD somewere ;) ).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think its too much like the gamespy logo ;)

I'd pick something different.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi all.

Heres an interesting read.

The Foundation for Information Policy Research (FIPR) has today, 24th April 2008, sent the Home Office in-depth legal analysis [pdf] of the Phorm behavioural advertising system. The analysis has been produced by FIPR’s General Counsel (and ORG Advisory Council member) Nicholas Bohm, and complements the technical analysis produced by Richard Clayton earlier this month [pdf].

http://www.openrightsgroup.org/2008/...vice-on-phorm/

Direct link to the analysis is here:
http://www.fipr.org/080423phormlegal.pdf
I would like to draw your attention to paragraphs 4, 5 and 6 in particular.

---------- Post added at 13:27 ---------- Previous post was at 13:25 ----------

I wrote to Bank Safe Online regarding Phorm. This is what they had to say:

Thank you for your email. Please note that banksafeonline is operated by
APACS on behalf of the UK banking industry to provide general advice on
online banking security, and we are not a financial institution.

The banking industry is aware of Phorm and will be observing the results
of the pilot with interest to ensure that customer security is not
compromised. Our understanding is that the Phorm service ignores HTTPS
and does not break ssl sessions. A broken ssl session would in any case
be readily detectable, as it would result in customers being presented
with a Phorm/webwise certificate rather than the one from their bank.
Beyond that we are unable to comment.

Best wishes

APACS Internet Fraud Response Team

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not so much a dropped hint, more an overarm throw...:D:D:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hehehe

The BBC Interview was conducted in a private room so unlikely there is any loose footage lying around on CCTV or Camcorders.

I don't expect they would be willing to release the unedited footage, although it would indeed be interesting and synonymous with Smokey and Bandit out takes ;)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Couldnt you put a DPA request in for the footage, even the unedited stuff?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ohh what a shame, a private room and so no footage and no fancy IT backdrops looking over your shoulder ;(


just a reminder, is there any small claim and named person's injunction advice in them books we might use to our advantage!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've now had a reply to my email to Nick Clegg,

His office have stated that the Lib Dems are fully aware of Phorm and believe if it is introduced it should be opt-in only.

They included a link to the early day motion.

They also claim that they are seeking other ways to attack Gordon Brown's surveillance society, and that strongly comitted to protecting privacy and civil liberties.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDe...px?EDMID=35552

Signatory counts so far:

Conservative Party 1
Democratic Unionist Party 4
INDEPENDENT LABOUR 1
Labour Party 10
Liberal Democrats 20

Does this suggest that members of a particular group have conflicting intereests, or that senior members of that party have conflicting interests and instructions have been issued?:(

(Not heard back from my MP yet)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for the update, jelv. :)

I don't know about the conflicting interests or instructions, but I can tell you that the number of signatories has gone up 7 since I posted the link to this EDM on here yesterday, so that's a good thing, at least.

Keep writing to your MPs and MEPs, folks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Peter Bottomley seems to be the only Tory, and he's always been his own man.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Cleaned it up a little.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just a reminder about RIPA, perhaps Rolands officer contacts might be of some use getting good solid advice/feedback.

i wonder what their personal view of being intercepted is too, if they have an ISP phorming them in the office or at home.

the Stanford case being the prosecution under RIPA and the subsequent loss of appeal by the ISP Executive involved case law as per Alexander and my finding earlyer in this thread so the board and executive managers can be Prosecuted, dont forget that.

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/pi...il/084400.html
"
Police, Home Office, and Phorm

Roland Perry ukcrypto at chiark.greenend.org.uk
Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:42:42 +0100
Previous message: Police, Home Office, and Phorm
Next message: Police, Home Office, and Phorm
Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In article <MBELJPEGAMOKEHHLKHHOMEKACCAA.pjohn at blueyonder.co.uk>, Pete
John <pjohn at blueyonder.co.uk> writes
>The Police declined to investigate, and told me responsibility
>for enforcing RIPA belongs to the Home Office.

The police investigated the Stanford case (I know some of the officers
involved).

Perhaps the police you talked to are confused, and think your complaint
relates to the oversight of Pt1 Ch2 (as experienced by the police),
which isn't the Home Office either (but the Interception Commissioner).
--
Roland Perry

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've had another reply from my MEP Liz Lynne, she has sent me a scanned copy of a letter she has received from the ICo, which is the same as the 1.3 version we have seen on the ICO site. I am pleased with her response as it shows she has been asking questions about the issue and she has said she will contact me again if anything else arises.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's an excellent logo Alexander, well done! is there no end to your talents?

Ali.

P.s. Vector Graphics? :eh: Never heard of it!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not bad considering you don't know that much about graphics, I like the man in the middle. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is he 20 and from Sheffield.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...ndid=144831302

---------- Post added at 15:07 ---------- Previous post was at 15:05 ----------

Or
Brett Munckton

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]
and
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Its way to similar! don't want to be done for Passing Off now. Not trying to be too critical - because I love what you are doing Alex - but we should reconsider this logo.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

its a way to create a graphic that scales to any size without loss of detail blockness as you might see on ordinary graphics apps when using the zoom option.

much the same as vector f(ph)onts :)

perhaps a smaller version is required, thinking about when news stories want to quote some PO text ect, does it fit on screen or paper well as a sidebar GFX!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Glad someone spotted the analogy :)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just because someone has the same nickname does not mean this is the same person!

Also - someone on iii found a 16 year old in the US with the same nickname. I would put money on either of these NOT being the same brettypoos as the one on iii.

Also - I'm not sure that this "outing" thing is a good idea

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

More from the Guardian

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...estealing.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is so much prior art for drawing a Spy a long time before GameSpy came around. It is a standard "noir" character drawing. There are not many ways you can draw a spy.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

as long as you dont ask for any personal information and forget any names / addresses / faces / or actions any one is doing, while you are there, and issue those you do see with an encrypted non id number. I can,t see it would be a problem ;)