Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Ian did not say Brexit was a failure. The only person who used that word was you. Perhaps you invoked the term subconsciously?

The import bureaucracy in question concerns that applied by most countries to imports outside their own trading bloc. Since the UK has left the EU, the UK falls into this category. So the way round this, or to use your phrase "to do something about this" is for the UK and EU to get closer eg mutual recognition of veterinary standards for the UK to join the Single Market. Are you on board with this?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Already given you some clues.

I have reminded Ian of the General Data Protection Regulation, the Working Time Directive and Acquired Rights Directive, but there are tons more. Examples include:

The Health and Safety at Work Framework Directive (requires all businesses to keep written records of all risk assessments, regardless of risk)
The Tobacco Products Directive (which restricts e-cigarettes even though there are health benefits to smokers).
The Chemicals Directive (which requires companies to carry out a huge and unnecessary amount of animal testing costing millions of pounds to the chemicals industry)
The European Food Information for Consumers Regulation (which for example requires shops to attach warnings to their fish products that the product contains fish)
The Clinical Trials Directive (which hampers clinical research and makes more difficult the access patients have to innovative new treatments).
The Genetically Modified Organisms Directive (which prevents genome editing, which is preventing the discovery of effective treatments, for example for malaria).

This gives you just an essence of a flavour of how the EU is frustrating businesses of all types. There are hundreds of these regulations that need to be overhauled or repealed altogether.

Some of these were put in place with good intentions, but they have overegged it all to a ridiculous degree which just makes more work for everyone, often for little benefit.

---------- Post added at 19:36 ---------- Previous post was at 19:32 ----------

No, failure is clearly what is in the minds of people who with glee post negative stories about Brexit with no attempt whatsoever of how to put these things right.

I most certainly do not think it has failed. What I am saying is we have not yet even begun to start flexing our muscles to make it work, and that’s why I think the coming years will be exciting.

---------- Post added at 19:37 ---------- Previous post was at 19:36 ----------

See above :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You’ve just given a list.

It doesn’t give me a flavour for anything. You’ve not meaningfully quantified the impact they have on businesses or how they are preventing “success”. What would you replace them with? You claim good intentions - so what do you replace them with to keep the benefits without the costs?

Nope. Your hyperbole fails the sniff test.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think you need to do the detailed research yourself. I am not the one doubting me, you are, so if you want to verify my post one way or the other, that’s down to you.

I am supremely confident that removal of the unnecessary bureaucracy imposed by a myriad of EU laws will free up all kinds of businesses.

If you want to question that, it’s you who must provide the evidence. I am not your researcher, jfman, and in any case, you wouldn’t accept the obvious if it was about to eat you alive.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You claim the discussion isn’t moving on, yet when given the opportunity are unable to do so of your own accord. :rofl:

So extensive is the myriad of rules you cannot quantify the impact of a single one on the economy - to explain how the benefits could be retained through a UK law without the costs imposed by the EU.

The absence of any insight into the subject at hand renders your supreme confidence irrelevant. If proven to correct it will be through chance, much like a toss of a coin but with a lower level of probability.

You’re the expert here, OB. Enlighten us naysayers.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Don’t be silly, jfman. I have given you examples of a small number of EU Directives that are restricting us, and I have also given you a clue against each one by way of a single example of how those Directives are impacting on us.

That, by itself, makes the point. I am not rising to the bait you so carefully set to derail that point. You can search the internet as well as I can, and as I have a life, I do not have the time nor the inclination to dot every i and cross every t just to satisfy you.

There are hundreds of such Directives and you want me to list them all, with a critique! You really are a case. :p:

The actual argument, which is that the abolition or amendment of hundreds of Directives will free up industry from a considerable amount of bureaucracy was my point. If you want to challenge that with a considered argument to the contrary, be my guest. Otherwise, you are simply trying to disrupt the debate and I am not going to assist you with that.

This is not Monty Python’s Department for Arguments. It is a debating forum. So debate.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

In the same sense you could tell me what a 70 mph speed limit is on the motorway is. What’s the alternative? Where’s the benefit? How many jobs?

Bait carefully set? That’s an interesting way to say you have no answer to the questions as posed.

“Considered argument”

:rofl:

Your argument is so hollow you cannot quantify a single one, make an alternative proposal and tell us how businesses would benefit? Wider impact on jobs? The economy?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

OK, to try and move the conversation along and so we can all try and get an understanding of how you feel things should change, let's just look at the first paragraph. It would help me understand you if you could answer me three questions:

1. Would you be happy with companies using your personal data for anything they wanted, including selling it to the highest bidder anywhere in the world?
2. How many hours a week would you happily work?
3. If your company got taken over, would you like your terms and conditions preserved or be happy for the new owners to be allowed to change them as they saw fit?

And for info, my answers are:

1. I do 37 hours at the moment and that's enough.
2. No I don't want companies holding my data longer than they need and I don't want them to be able to do whatever they want with it.
3. I would like my conditions preserved.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Maybe not personally but OB has already admitted making a career out of steamrollering workers rights advising unscrupulous employers in driving down working conditions to squeeze further profits at their expense. Like parasites.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...9&postcount=19

Whether he’d want those things for himself who knows.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not quite, they voted to leave the EU. Keep up dear ..

You really do have just a single answer when confronted with the damage this decision has done and that is to gaslight. Decisions need to be owned, if you promise the earth and do not deliver then you will be held to account. Moreover, when the aim is to continue the fantasy when the evidence is all around demonstrating that it is folly, you end up with:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You see, this is the common response. But we are not talking about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Yes, 37 hours a week may suit you, but others may want to work longer hours. The legislation does not allow the choice that a lot of people want to achieve the standard of living they want. For some low paid workers, working longer hours could prove the difference between eating or not eating. You also ignore the fact that the Working Time Regulations is rather more extensive in scope than the 48 hour week.

We are all concerned about data protection, but the GDPR is extremely bureaucratic in its application. Are you really happy to have that ridiculous screen come up each time that you have to accept to proceed? It's simply unnecessary.

All the EU laws require review to establish which provisions are necessary, and is the legislation addressing the problem at hand without unnecessary bureaucracy?

---------- Post added at 18:28 ---------- Previous post was at 18:25 ----------

You need to get a Covid test.

---------- Post added at 18:34 ---------- Previous post was at 18:28 ----------

Nonsense, Ian. The benefits of Brexit have yet to be felt, given that Covid has effectively stalled the process.

Brexit - leaving the EU....what do you see as being the difference?

---------- Post added at 18:35 ---------- Previous post was at 18:34 ----------

God, more conflation from this man. He's just interested in trading insults instead of debating.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

All very nice, but do you want to have a go at answering the questions? They weren't the most complicated questions ever asked.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You can work more than 48 hours except for some limited jobs. The employee need to waive those rights and they can’t be forced to do it - https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-wo...and-opting-out . I am starting a new job next week and due to the nature of the job working with people in different time zones, I have signed off those rights

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I have answered them, Grim. My point is simply that there is a lot of scope to change the EU laws that are currently in force in Britain, for the benefit of business.

There’s nothing controversial about this, and I am not the only one making this point.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Hopefully not to the detriment of the employees, customers, and the environment?

Like…

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1...f729e09f78fc79

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Oh my mistake, I must have blinked and missed them. I've gone back and checked and still can't see them. Did anyone else notice his answers?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I did

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yet OB it is you, far more than anyone else in this thread, who harps back to the referendum more than anyone else.

We’ve invited you to name a single regulation that could be changed and to quantify what that means for the economy, living standards, jobs and you have not.

Indeed, it’s quite a paradox that these open goals exist yet our Conservative government with a commanding majority haven’t simply tapped the ball into the net. Despite this, your enemy is the lay voter who disagrees with you and is inconsequential to whether change occurs.

We have at least uncovered some background to your hatred for the British worker.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I know what I noticed and that's the fact that this thread is going nowhere with constant digs and sniping. :td:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It is becoming a little tiresome. :sleep:

The sniping can stop now, or a few people are going to take a rest from this topic.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think that one issue with EU rules is how countries interpret and implement them. Our system tends to take the rules as "law" and forces obedience. Other countries take them as guidelines to be generally followed with a good pinch of common sense unless it applies to "foreigners" when for some reason whole layers of bureaucracy is involved.


I also think that it's the same here with our own laws. If the civil servants who get to implement things don't like it they can make it very hard to work.


Finally lots of rules are here because of people that break the rules. It should be easy to, for example, say that if you are unemployed after 2 weeks you can claim benefit that would include fuel bills being covered, food etc. But you have to then prevent people just claiming because they don't want to work, ensure that payments go to the right person and lots of other rules and regulations with exceptions and exceptions to the exceptions and so on. GDPR shouldn't really be needed, good companies should be doing that sort of thing anyway. You need a framework to tell them that maybe so they can ensure they design systems well and maybe outline punishments for abuse but not all the weight and work GDPR requires from everyone collecting data.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It’s called “gold plating” and our civil service is exceptionally good at it. Those of them who rue the day we voted to leave the EU might find it useful to ponder the extent to which the culture they work in, and perpetuate, helped bring it about.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not surprised to see the Minister for Brexit Opportunities position abolished. You can only keep an oxymoron of a job going for so long. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Indeed, I can’t think of a single thing he delivered whilst in post that warrants such a significant promotion

Cronyism over competence who would have thought it ?

Oh wait, he put some bits of paper on some desks

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The funniest part of the article he wrote in the Sun about this was a picture that was supposed to show an empty Serious Fraud Squad office was in fact a picture of the Cabinet Office (where he worked…).

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1662625324

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That was my major gripe with the Johnson regime - just blatantly not worrying about the truth.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https://www....reType=nongift

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Trade deal with US won't happen in 2022 as promised.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62968072 (see end of article)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So what happens then?

Do we trade as per WTO rules like:-


LINKAGE

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Throughout the Troubles, Biden voiced support for the Irish cause and sometimes took action in the Senate. In 1985, he opposed an extradition treaty with Britain that would have affected members of the Irish Republican Army who had fled to the United States. Taking issue with the British administration of justice in Northern Ireland, he helped force the GOP to water down the agreement.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Just saw the news hidden in Damien's link about banker bonuses so posted the snippet.

Despite the promises of 2017, I don't think it was really ever on the cards whoever the President was. The US is focused on its treaty with Mexico and Canada and doesn't see the need to go beyond this given its large market size.

---------- Post added at 16:37 ---------- Previous post was at 16:36 ----------

People's views change - Truss was more recently a Leaver, before that a Liberal Democrat and before that an anti-monarchist.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

She never supported a bunch of murdering terrorists and as far as i know the things she did support were all legal

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

In 2016, Barack Obama warned it could take the United Kingdom up to 10 years to negotiate trade deals with the US. This was dismissed as Project Fear.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Agreed, my point was about a politician's views being able to shift over time.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

He's a racist pig who hates the British who gives a toss about his opinion

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

why because he told the truth and leavers don't like it

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

even if Trump was still in they be no trade deal congress would not allow it because of uk going to break NI protocol and threating the GFA people from both parties in America have said that

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Didn’t think you wanted one anyway? You know all that chlorinated chicken et Al. You should be happy.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If you can get a deal on the right terms, it would obviously be good for the country so I'd be up for it. But as I said before, the US is not particularly interested in going much beyond its current free trade area with Mexico and Canada, whoever is in power.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think the Telegraph is trolling Johnson here over getting Brexit done! But I predict now Truss is PM we'll get this resolved and hopefully this will pave the way for us to participate in Horizon Europe.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...3994b5987e14b1

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I wonder what we've done differently to the rest of the G7?
https://www.ft.com/content/4edae69b-...a-03d14ca8caa6

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Tory MP Steve Baker apologies to Ireland and EU for behaviour during Brexit
Northern Ireland secretary says he and colleagues had not always respected others’ ‘legitimate interests’

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-during-brexit

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Good to hear.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Here he is again at Conference, saying footballers ‘taking the knee" is not Neo-Marxist ideology, it’s about showing solidarity…

https://twitter.com/nadinebh_/status...y-MB-Oi_O2hnhw

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So Steve Baker, one of the driving forces behind Brexit and the ERG, is "woke"?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

taking the knee it about showing there no room for racism in the world after the racist murder of George Floyd by a cop

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

OK, they may have messed up the economy but credit where it's due, prospects in Northern Ireland are looking up.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/po...rotoco-1893869

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

hopefully a deal gets done

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'd wager that is totally made up.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

How much do you wager?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I doubt The Times will share its sources with us so your money's safe.

At the heart of the matter, there does seem to be a tension between Truss's desire for supply-side reforms ie to increase immigration and Braverman's desire to reduce it.

Braverman's inexperience is likely coming through in her undiplomatic comments in naming a specific country.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They aint mad until they start throwing sandals at you;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Wonder what they're doing differently?
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/othe...b4946e3467ab2f

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Following an entirely different investment model than the UK is what they’re doing. Sadly for years the UK has been saddled with long hours, low productivity and an excessively cautious attitude to investment.

Bear in mind however that there are differing industrial policies within EU-27 countries and industrial policy isn’t an area of EU competence so these statistics really only serve to obfuscate rather than illuminate. Within the Eurozone you will find some countries doing wildly better than others (I’ll take a stab in the dark and say Germany is probably doing very well here).

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It'll go down the pan when the gas runs out;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The missus' order of French food and drinks arrived this morning. Still no shortages across the entire shop, with many new lines arriving daily. They are even selling fresh peaches and nectarines after a few hiccoughs with transport within the UK (London and beyond).

The only thing missing was mustard. "Severe drought in Canada, poor harvests in France and the war in Ukraine have combined to reduce the supplies of mustard seeds available to producers."

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yup, French food should be delivered as pre Brexit because we're postponing checking EU imports.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Meanwhile, this Tweet looks like something Mr K would say! ;)

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1665698569

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Remember when Rees Smug told the people that border checks at Dover were unnecessary and would cause us harm, well 21 out of 22 lorries inspected were carrying meat unfit for human consumption, some were riddled with maggots, might not be so bad but when people told the victorian pipe cleaner that it was a smugglers charter he called their warnings project fear :( :dozey:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Maybe he thinks that's the type of food your typical hard working family normally eats, because after all he would know hard work if it punched him in the face.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Indeed, it's the brexit dividend of cheap food he promised the plebs :doh:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Maybe he's been watching I'm a Celebrity. The swear filter just won't give me the words to describe him.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Useful update on the impact of Brexit on the UK economy in the context of the new PM.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-63426412

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Any update on what the opportunities of brexit are, smugg's been looking for them for years without luck and even resorted to asking The Sun readers for theirs in desperation

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Here's what were promised: Weekly food shop will become cheaper, shorter NHS waiting times, potentially more money for schools, higher wages, a resurgent economy, easier for young people to get on the housing ladder, more accountable politicians, a more prosperous and safer future.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1555249564663398401

The move to Imperial measure will doubtless be canned as will the idea to repeal EU legislation we incorporated into UK law. That probably leaves refinement of the Solvency II laws as doable, but the EU is also looking at those itself

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Is that JRM’s 50 years eventually?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think Truss showed that the loss-tax, low-regulation Brexiters' fantasy is an economist's nightmare and unachievable.

You can't argue with the gravity of trade and if you want lower taxes or more money to spend on the NHS, we will require smoother trading terms with our main trading bloc, the EU. The UK is the only G7 country whose GDP is not back to pre-Covid levels.

Voters may have been happy to accept the economy taking a 4% hit for more sovereignty and other reasons. But when that 4% hit translates into higher taxes, poorer services or no triple pensions lock, it's no surprise the polls suggest they're now thinking differently.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well they knew what they were voting for, if pensioners are struggling without the triple lock perhaps they should get a job, there's plenty out there

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But a bit confused about good British, out of the EU, reservoirs apparently.



https://twitter.com/johnredwood/stat...56919838887937

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Do you mean the man who posted this a couple of days ago?

https://twitter.com/johnredwood/stat...vN6UbcwZvHCuVQ

If only there had been a recent event which had shown the folly of marginalising the role of OBR when setting fiscal policy...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You are being too polite Hugh, the guy is a fool.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

A big deficit in 2025? I’m pretty sure the deficit is big enough already.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not big enough for Redwood, apparently!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I know it's crude and doesn't work but £50 billion deficit divided over 70 million population is around £720 each. Now all 70 million can't pay as we have children and others in that number. But that really is only the deficit and doesn't do much for the huge debt. We do need to pay that off..

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You think that’s bad mate wait til you see the national debt.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It’s around £5.5 billion this year, £3 billion next year, £1 billion 2024…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/51110096

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Is it about £30k per person to pay off the UK's national debt?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yes but getting the budget right means we start to pay off that debt and people who pay off debt get that debt at better rates than those who don't.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And people who add additional debt without explaining how they’re going to pay for it have to pay more for that debt - pretty basic process you would have thought most people would know…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Another Brexit benefit for our competitors found. ;)

London has lost its rank as Europe’s biggest stock market to Paris. The gap between the two markets has been narrowing since the Brexit vote in 2016.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ges-ahead.html

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:zzz:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There was good news for manufacturers published by the government yesterday. It has been decided to extend recognition of CE marking for another two years. Goods were due to need UKCA approval by the end of this year but this has now been extended to the end of 2024.

Linky- https://www.gov.uk/government/news/b...ng-flexibility

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I suspect this will continue to be kicked down he road by future governments.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

On top of George Useless sorry Eustice saying our trade deal with Australia is a complete disaster, nothing says sovereignty more than having to rely on other countries for your food

---------- Post added at 18:37 ---------- Previous post was at 18:33 ----------

Indeed our everyday sovereignty is causing more than enough problems

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Finally ...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We're feeling the pinch now.
https://www.theguardian.com/business...-bank-governor

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Meh, we wanted this and voted for it :shrug: