Re: Coronavirus
 

I bet takeaways will keep the VAT cut for themselves by putting up their prices correspondingly.

It was on the 10pm BBC news that you pay for your restaurant meal as normal and then complete a form on a website to claim up to a maximum of £10 towards your meal. It's then paid into your bank account. I wonder how many people will bother.

Re: Coronavirus
 

So wrong in so many ways...

A) if they keep the prices the same, they gain the 15% VAT, so no need to put up the prices...

B) the (up to) £10 per person is taken off your bill if the restaurant has enrolled in the scheme

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ne...nts-in-august/

Richard, it isn’t difficult to check these things, rather than post incorrect disinformation - it only takes a few minutes.

They wont stop until the election at least I can guarantee you that!!!

Re: Coronavirus
 

My hairdresser is putting up their prices post lockdown..seems a little counter-intuitive seeing as there are 4 hairdressers in competition here.

Re: Coronavirus
 

They would need to raise their prices after the VAT cut to get it back to the same price.

The information about claiming the money back was on last night's 10pm BBC News, they can't both be correct.

Have you forgotten about my cognitive issues?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Two separate schemes.

The VAT cut should mean that they can drop their prices to attract more customers. They keep the same amount of money. That would mean redoing prices on the menus.

The 50% discount(up to £10 per head and not including alcohol) is effectively the taxpayer paying that discounted part of the bill. Eg Bill for £15, customer hands over £7.50, the other £7.50 is claimed off the taxpayer.

All the more reason to double-check things, or just post something as a question, rather than as a statement of fact which is false.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Solihull man arrested over £495,000 'furlough fraud'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ngham-53351271

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

The drop in VAT works out at 12.5% (Current - £100 nett -> £120 gross, New is £100 -> £105, saves £15 which is 12.5% of £120.)
Wonder how many people expect 15% off the gross so £120 -> £102 and complain?

I remember when VAT was first placed on takeaways and many places raised their prices more than the change would warrant. I don't think I mind if places do raise prices a little at this time, the drop in VAT would allow them to do that and still lower the total price to customer and make a bit more profit. Hey both seller and buyer win.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Rounding up to the nearest 5p or 10p will be a factor.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I remember when VAT went up to 20%, pretty sure there were similar 'that doesn't line up right' issues due to the way it's calculated.

---------- Post added at 15:33 ---------- Previous post was at 15:31 ----------

Actually I think I'm thinking of the cut to 15% before that, not the increase!

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

Latest Re-Opening News ;

* Outdoor pools will be able to re-open on 11 July.
* Outdoor theatres will be able to start up from Saturday.
* Indoor gyms, swimming pools and sports facilities will then be able to re-open from 25 July.

* Grassroots sport will be able to return from this coming weekend, beginning with cricket (other sports will follow).

* Small pilots of indoor performances with socially distanced audiences will also take place to help work out the best way to get them up and running.

* From Monday 13 June, beauticians, tattooists, spas, tanning salons and other close contact services can reopen "subject to some restrictions on particularly high-risk services".

Re: Coronavirus
 

In the meantime today's death toll in the UK is 85.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I was repeating vertabim what the BBC news said, they went on to say that the money would be credited into people's bank accounts within 3 to 5 days.

It's looking like this was incorrect and a far more sensible idea of giving the discount at the point of sale is to be used.

Re: Coronavirus
 

As I said two different schemes, with two different mechanisms. The reduction of VAT scheme is immediate, they can reduce their prices or pocket the difference. The OTHER scheme with the discount, the money is aimed to be in their bank account, 5 days after claiming it.
Link

In the case of meals(not takeaways), it look like both schemes can apply.

---------- Post added at 19:10 ---------- Previous post was at 19:04 ----------

Pity you can't keep nail bars, tattooists, and tanning salons permanently closed.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Absolute bitterness there for no reason there Nomadking. These are the small businesses that keep the world turning. Entrepreneurs don’t ya know?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Not bitterness, just pointless businesses. People's money should be spent elsewhere, eg on feeding their kids.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Restricting trade Nomadking? Sounds awfully communist. You can only buy what the state permits, etc.

Welcome, comrade.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I did say "pity you can't", not "we must". Plenty of examples of where the government does prevent things, or sets rules, or issues permits.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Keeps em off the streets I guess.

Personally never been too sure about those (usually female) who think they look great with an all round glowing tan, glittering orange fluorescent fingernails, and a tattoo on the neck that reads "I LUV ROCHDALE" :D

Re: Coronavirus
 

That isn’t to say good, hard working capitalist street workers are bad thing.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Pardon me Vicar ! ;)

I wonder how social distancing is affecting the oldest trade in the world. Take some adjustments I guess....

Re: Coronavirus
 

I’m sure masks and gloves are available upon request.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Prophylactic in so many different ways...:D

Re: Coronavirus
 

But businesses all the same. Creating employment and that's pretty much one of the most important things needed right now.

On a different note, I just can't wait until my local gym reopens but we have no date yet. Not all gyms have cardio equipment and those that do can space them out, use plastic clear screens etc and CV doesn't get transmitted through sweat.

I use one of the 24 hour gyms and I've been there at 4am and cleaners have been in there so if that was ramped up, masks made compulsory and elevated safety measures taken I don't see it being any more of a problem than shops etc

Re: Coronavirus
 

The full nine inches.


Topic? can we stick to it please?

Re: Coronavirus
 

The money spent in those places, doesn't magically disappear if those businesses don't exist. It is available to spend elsewhere, supporting those jobs instead.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Totally missing the point but ok

Re: Coronavirus
 

It’s still available to spend by the new recipient. GDP isn’t a measure of how much money there is, it’s how quickly you can cycle it through the economy.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It should be spent in a more meaningful way, rather than ridiculous false nails, tattoos, and damaging tans.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

Just because they're not your thing doesn't mean they're "wrong" in any way.

How the economy recovers is not a matter of who-likes-what. It's a case of what will get cash flowing through the country as quickly and efficiently as possible.

If you don't want false nails, a tattoo or a "damaging tan" then don't have them. But bear in mind when these places reopen there will be literally queues of customers who will be desperate. It matters not one bit whether you or I approve of them. They a source of income for the employees, the companies will (in theory initially, hopefully continuing) prosper and that sort of thing is what the economy needs.

Individual feelings very much need to put to one side.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Agreed

I've already stated that I personally think they're off putting and look stupid . . . much the same as others feel about me smoking, driving a large car, and playing Black Sabbath albums backwards looking for hidden Satanist messages . . . but it does keep the money flowing and people in work.

And paid work of any kind that gets money moving around is what the country probably needs right now, considering many won't have been spending as much as normal* over the last few months.



* . . although the wife & daughter have been trying hard ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

We've had notification on some of the plans to reopen our gym all makes me much less inclined to go.
1)No changing or showering facilities.
2)Have to book slots - with how I work that's not easy. I may plan to go 1730-1930 but get a call so work, then eat then want to go 2000-2200.
3)Distancing - OK this may work but some people (especially on weights) work in pairs but at some times gym can be busy with some equipment having queues.

Masks - how does that work wanting to drink while on CV equipment? Heavier masks won't help your breathing, will light ones fall off? Wiping sweat off?

Re: Coronavirus
 

I also side with Russ on this one. :)

None of those things is of any interest to me at whatsoever, but I see no reason people cannot spend money on them if thats their thing.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Not all gyms have or centre on cardio equipment. For the record I completed a 6 mile run with a mask on all the way. Sure it was uncomfortable but do-able.

Not having changing facilities wouldn’t be a problem for me, I live a few hundred yards from my gym. Booking slots may be challenging as I’m pretty anti-social in the gym and prefer early morning slots, preferably around 4 or 5am. As for people training in pairs, I’ve never been a fan of that. Twice as long to wait for them to finish plus the long chats whilst “rearing” between sets. If they bring in a no-spotting rule I won’t be too bothered.

Re: Coronavirus
 

If you're breathing more heavily from exercise, won't that make masks less effective? Air will be forced in and out to a greater extent, and in around the gaps between mask and face.


Isn't this what I've been saying?
Link

The EU seeking total control.

Re: Coronavirus
 

If the place was full to capacity and people weren't socially distancing then I guess theoretically there's an elevated risk.

Re: Coronavirus
 

If you're breathing more heavily then the necessary distance increases.

If you're moving your head around a lot, the maths of simple ballistics shows that also increases the distance travelled. Think of the difference, if a javelin thrower threw the javelin at 45 degrees compared to just horizontally. An angle of 45 degrees gives the maximum amount of travel. The projectile has the opportunity to travel further distance before hitting the ground from gravity. So tilting your head back by eg 20 degrees, increases the distance travelled.

Breathing more heavily also increase the risk of virus particles being forced through any material.

Re: Coronavirus
 

You’re still not getting it. There’s nothing 100% effective. If masks are the difference between R being 0.9 or 1.1 that’s huge.

I’m quite sure you understand the concept of collective bargaining.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Not sure about other people as I don’t tend to pay much attention to gym users around me but I can’t say I’ve ever moved my head around much, a lot or even a little when lifting weights. I tend to just move the muscles I’m trying to work.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The higher the speed of the "projectile", the greater the distance travelled. Again, the maths of basic simple ballistics. A virus particle might sit quite happily on the surface of a mask, but might be sucked in or blown out more easily. Think differences in power in vacuum cleaners. Basic maths and physics. The central point should be, is it an extra unnecessary risk worth taking?



We've already got the agreements in place for a not too dissimilar price. We also have first dibs, rather being last in the EU dictated queue. Firms aren't chasing a profit with this, so collective bargaining isn't relevant, being first in line is. The 100m doses already negotiated would've instead been allocated by the EU. If even we got back that 100m, it would take longer to do so.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Aggregated over the entire population using one reduces risk. This is a fact regardless of whether someone is exercising or not.

Depends who gets the vaccine first.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The transmission risk is higher, compared to people breathing normally. That is why singing is banned in churches etc.

You think that countries like Poland and Romania, are going to contribute the full cost of their doses?:rolleyes: Even in your nonsense collective bargaining scenario, the UK would be paying over the odds compared to negotiating ourselves, as we would be paying for other countries as well.
Link

Re: Coronavirus
 

Nomadking I’m absolutely appalled by your denial of science here. Seriously, what do you gain from such misinformation? I accept I’ve been controversial at times throughout this thread yet have general agreement from notional adversaries Seph, Carth, and to a lesser extent Pierre.

Steps need to be taken. Yes we can disagree about what normal might look like, or the timescale, fine. But masks, quarantine, these are all part of the future.

This isn’t Conservative v Labour, capitalism v socialism. Capitalism dies in its arse when consumers are dying off and families are paying for premature funerals. As you asked, is that money better off spent elsewhere?

Collective bargaining not worthy of reply. Again narrow view of single transaction economics.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Denial of science? My Biochemistry days may have been a long time ago.

Is singing banned in a lot of places, not just the UK? Yes or No?
Link
Even shouting is a problem.


WHO advice
Link
Am I wrong on the maths of Ballistics? Yes or No?

As the firms are saying they are not going to seek profits, the notion of collective bargaining is nonsense. Even if bidding was a factor, as we would be effectively paying for others, the price per dose that we could use would be higher. In that situation we would be able to instead use the extra to outbid others.

As my quote pointed out.

Quote:

We would have joined the EU scheme if they had allowed us also to continue with our own negotiations, but one of the conditions of the scheme was that we would have had to stop our own negotiations and only do them through the European Commission and we weren’t prepared to do that.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Gone past the stage of being surprised by this.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dar...t-competition/

Re: Coronavirus
 

Gish galloping as normal... :rolleyes:

Re: Coronavirus
 

FFS, give it up, both of you, this is getting very tiresome, how about we get back to the topic at hand.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Fake News and Brexit doublethink:

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...cerns-12025718

The UK would be free to continue its own work on vaccine development ..

I wonder who the "Whitehall source" is? ;) All together now ..

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's not Mr K!
Is it Mr C?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Going back to the subject of gyms, masks don’t affect oxygen saturation so I don’t see any issue with people working out with them on, other than possibly the discomfort.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It wasn't about whether the vaccine development would be allowed.:rolleyes: So the comment from the EU is nonsense.
Link

We WOULDN'T have been allowed to independently negotiate with ANY vaccine suppliers. It would be only the EU allowed to do that. Theoretically even the likes of Germany and France wouldn't be allowed to independently negotiate anything.
From the actual letter.

So we're NOT ignoring the EU completely.

Official EU Press release
We already have supply deals in place.
Eg
The UKs deal was in place a month before the EUs.
Link
So the UK deal is an initial 30m doses by September and the EU one is starting by the end of this year. Which is better?

We're ahead of the EU in making the deals, why would we surrender those deals?
Link

Quote:

Mr Hancock confirmed the UK was already putting in contracts with vaccine developers around the world, and was engaging will all 10 of the development projects regarded as the frontrunners, including those at Oxford University and Imperial College London.

Re: Coronavirus
 

"Up to" 30 million, not an initial 30 million...

Re: Coronavirus
 

Latest findings from the Department of the Bleeding Obvious ... country which voted to stop subcontracting its affairs to a supranational organisation, stops subcontracting its affairs to a supranational organisation.

Seriously, people - are we going to do the EU angle with any and every international trade/regulation story that comes up, forever? I try to avoid saying this, but really, please get over it.

HMG is not throwing its lot in with the EU scheme for the very reasons we left the EU in the first place - being in, prevents us continuing to act in our own interests even where they may diverge from those of the EU. And while we remain in the transition phase, throwing our lot in with the EU is even worse because it weds us to their decisions without the ability to influence them. As a general rule we shouldn’t be opting in to anything the EU does unless and until we’re on a post-transition treaty footing with them, that assures us *if* we participate in one of their schemes, we have fair and reasonable input into how it works. If that’s too much for the EU and no treaty is possible, then we go our own way, do our own thing, and for goodness sake can we stop going over this confected outrage every time.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It certainly doesn't mean just half a dozen. Whatever it is, it's still a lot better than the EUs "deliveries starting by the end of 2020". The other important aspect is ,"people in the UK will get the first access to it,". If they can only produce 29m by September, the UK gets all of that 29m? I should imagine, if a working vaccine is found, the methods of manufacture will be released, and countries all around the World will also be able to make it.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Just been out for a walk along my local sea front. No one is socially distancing except me. However where they have to to get into eateries/cafes they are quite happy to do so..But I did notice that numbers are low for a sunny summer Saturday.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Coronavirus: Mathon farm workers isolating after 73 cases

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ester-53381802

Re: Coronavirus
 

I can see Boris and his appeal for home workers to go back to the office falling on deaf ears.

---------- Post added at 18:12 ---------- Previous post was at 17:06 ----------

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...study-suggests

Oh dear...

“Another nail in the coffin for herd immunity”

Re: Coronavirus
 

"Herd immunity" ISN'T specific to Covid-19.:rolleyes:


Is this the reason for those results?

Link
Link
An increase in the required IgG antibodies occurs with a subsequent infection. The immune system "memorises" the required antibody and produces it when needed.

In other words, a reduction is perfectly NORMAL.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

*sigh*
I may win the lottery next week.
We may get invaded by aliens in the next few months.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Ah yes, media Buzz words that should always be treated with a truck load of scepticism.

May, Could, Possibly, Scientists say, Sources say, etc

Re: Coronavirus
 

Probabilty vs possibility- important not to get them confused.

It’s probable you may catch Coronavirus, it’s possible we may be invaded by aliens in the next few months - as the Government says, use your "common sense"...

Re: Coronavirus
 

It’s funny how our scientists are world leading and know better than the rest of the world when they are saying what you want to hear, and offer no more than guesswork when they do not.

Re: Coronavirus
 

"Guesswork" based upon hundreds of studies of previous outbreaks. Easy to say, "well this is different", after the event.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Your point would have merit if there weren’t so many other countries doing something completely different at that time. We were the dissenting voice, not the majority.

Re: Coronavirus
 

In February the majority said that this was just the flu and not something we needed to worry about especially not close the borders.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Since the smoking bans started, it seemed to be mostly the smokers who sat outside in pub gardens in all weathers. Now they want to ban smoking in pub gardens!

Re: Coronavirus
 

Ironic as smokers are strangely resistant to Covid

Re: Coronavirus
 

Not so much...

https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsu...us-and-smoking

Re: Coronavirus
 

Coronavirus: Face coverings in England's shops to be compulsory from 24 July

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53397617

Only yesterday, Michael Gove said he did not think face coverings should be compulsory in shops in England...

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c9/b2...4ff4d59ee8.gif

Re: Coronavirus
 

Apparently, the plan is to ban smoking so that pubs/eating establishments can place tables/chairs outside - which will help attract more customers without exposing them to the nasty smelly harmful fumes from us annoying smokers.

It's very rare I go out anywhere now, because I found if I wanted to smoke I had to stand outside in the wind/rain/sleet/snow . . . best of luck enjoying a meal in those conditions :p:

Shame really, me and my mates used to spend a lot of money in pubs/clubs :D

Re: Coronavirus
 

SkyNews
@SkyNews
·
1h
Face coverings must be worn in shops and supermarkets in England from Friday 24 July, Boris Johnson has announced.

Enforcement will be carried out by police, not retail staff, and anyone who does not comply will face a fine of up to £100.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I think Boris Johnson's experience of Covid-19 has made him keener to impose such restrictions than Michael Gove.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I was only thinking that earlier, hopefully it's prompted him to grow up a bit too.

If the loss of immunity after having had Covid-19 leads to people being able to catch it again, I wonder if this will mean that, even if one is found, that a vaccine would evenrually wear off too. I'm not sure if acquiring immunity or being injected with immunity are the same thing as far as the body is concerned.

If so, people will need to be vaccinated every few months either to stay alive if they are vulnerable or to prevent mass sickness absence from work for those that wouldn't die, but nevertheless be incapacitated and all the problems that that would entail.

Re: Coronavirus
 

*Sigh* :td:

Re: Coronavirus
 

And now Face coverings from 24 july have to be worn in shops why not hairdressers, pubs, restaurants, offices, etc, etc?

Re: Coronavirus
 

I can see a potential issue with wearing a face mask in a pub or a restaurant Den.....;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

l know that Julian ;) but you can understand the point l am making though.;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Just a headline reader as usual.

Perhaps it may be worth waiting until Tuesday rather than spouting off now.

Re: Coronavirus
 

On the BBC web site it dose say face masks will be compulsery in shops, fines of £100 if you do not wear a face mask in shops.


I do agree wait for the announcement later today

Re: Coronavirus
 

So much for a few weeks self-isolation.
Link

Isolated for 7 weeks in total.

There may turn out to be a simple explanation, but if those 57 had arrived back before showing any symptoms, it could've caused a large outbreak.

Contaminated ice that they came into contact with?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Sounds like the virus was bought aboard in the supplies before sailing.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The theory goes that at room temperature, the virus "dies" after around 3 days. Frozen supplies may have been a source. I now gather larger fishing boats make their own ice on board.
The length of time before anybody showed any symptoms and that it all happened around the same time, suggests the initial exposure came late on in the voyage.


Don't know what the weather is like down there, but it is winter in the southern hemisphere and they are at the very southern tip of South America.

Re: Coronavirus
 

https://www.biotechniques.com/corona...-for-covid-19/ When I took part in a Rhinovirus medication trial, you were swabbed twice a day for 10 days, with the swab being done by a doctor, as it requires quite precise placement. It was a very strange feeling, like someone was tickling/scratching inside your head (made your eyes water).

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...0&d=1594720640

Re: Coronavirus
 

Not really that relevant whether anybody was actually positive when going on board. They were isolated for 2 weeks before that. Plus there would've had to be a chain of infections from one person to another, and onto another, for it to emerge 4 weeks into the voyage.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The clue is in the term “self” isolation.

A bubble of 60 people isn’t self isolation.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Self-isolation doesn't mean just by yourself. They are currently self-isolating on the fishing boat. They were quarantined for 14 days in a hotel, before they set out. They were isolated from the general public for 7 weeks.

Re: Coronavirus
 

True self isolation is alone.

60 people in a group can’t “self” isolate. It’s a contradiction in terms, and a scenario for which 14 days doesn’t apply. The fact they avoided the general public doesn’t discount spread amongst themselves.

One false negative test (or test prior to having the virus to the extent you would test positive) and you’ve got the virus in the bubble. Symptomatic or not, that person could conceivably not pass the virus immediately causing a delay. Especially if physical distancing and other measures maintained had strong adherence at first. After 3-4 weeks the second or third infected person could get the ball rolling as the crew become complacent. By week 7 you get the inevitable.

This is part of the reason why football teams and other “bubbles” were tested frequently before training resumed and a ball was kicked. The other obviously being that they could abscond and the virus enter that way.

Re: Coronavirus
 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c...8f2930e9ae48f6

However

Re: Coronavirus
 

Interesting evidence from our world leading, expert, Chief Scientific Adviser at the Parliamentary Select Committee today.

SAGE advised to lockdown a week before lockdown and he says that we will find we didn’t take the “right decisions at the right time”.

So if the scientists make decisions and idle politicians “follow the science” by bowing to their expertise, where did it go wrong?

The good news is he also says it’s probable we have years of this too. Just as well I quite like working from home.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I’ve said all along in this thread that this government “follows the science” as and when it suits them.

Re: Coronavirus
 

When they say follow they science they are correct, it's just that there's a small lag of seven days!

---------- Post added at 17:19 ---------- Previous post was at 17:06 ----------

You would hope they would be collaborating, not spying!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53429506

Re: Coronavirus
 

So a lockdown could simply be implemented overnight?
The advice was "as soon as possible".
Link
Link

Link

The snag is, that if wearing a mask leads to you potentially exposing yourself more often, then any marginal benefit is wiped out. Eg Throwing a pair of dice, a double six might be marginal, but throw them several times, it becomes less marginal.


All countries , including Germany and South Korea had problems with testing capacity.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I did wonder who’d be first in to bat for the Government but it was predictable really. Nomadking to the... flounder?

With exponential growth rate of the virus, I’m sure the resources of the fifth (are we still fifth) richest economy in the world could have coped with it similarly to extending it for a week at the cost of tens of thousands of lives and considerable NHS resource.

Re: Coronavirus
 

That was not the start date that was advised, it was merely when the government were advised(16th or 18th). It couldn't happen overnight, and it was publicly announced on the 23rd.


Surely that alleged spying is a form of seeking collaboration. They were seeking information, which with collaboration would theoretically occur anyway.

Re: Coronavirus
 

WTAF?

Is this in line with you not condemning the Russian bounties on our troops in Afghanistan - was that because the Taliban were probably going to try and kill them anyway*? ::rolleyes:

*in line with your, for lack of a better word, logic in your post.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Nomadking appears to hate this country more than I get accused of. While I disagree with much our military do, I don’t think Russia putting a bounty on them is reasonable. A good hard honest working person trying to get a mortgage is a ‘parasite’ in his/her eyes.

Such an awful and skewed world view.