Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OH be carefull Alexander they might be trying to phorm you onto their side :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Funny you should say that, my pass for the ITSec conference (where the BBC filmed the show) states:

Alexander Hanff
IT Specialist
Phorm

So I am thinking of asking Kent where my pay cheque is.

;)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I distinctly remember when visiting the then Ntlworld homepage and getting a pop-up asking me to take part in an on-line survey. Among some other guff I distinctly remember them two questions. I think you have got the questions exactly word for word as far as I can remember.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just don't let him pay you in share options ;)

On a related note: Do you think Kent's nervous/obnoxious attitude could have been down to a certain lack of forewarning from his droid army on what you were going to say in the interview? Maybe the PM route of compiling your questions/statements for Click has got the enemy rattled (i.e. they couldn't prepare responses to points scraped from this forum) I'm all for open discussion in this forum (it's how most of minor figures like me in this campaign get our info) but perhaps the decision not to announce in advance exactly what you're going to say/ask in high profile interviews is having some effect?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I recall these questions somewhere.
I answered 'yes' to the first, but I originally thought that it would involve more sensible placement of adverts - for example, an advert for a ski shop on a holiday website, yes, but an advert for boots on a wheelchair website, no.

I think I answered 'yes' to the second as well, but this was before I knew about firefox's built in anti-phishing stuff.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So, have we all written to the Attorney General to ask her what action is to be taken to bring BT to account for the illegal interception of web communications in 2006 and 2007? Polite letters please to:

Lady Scotland of Asthal
Attorney General
20 Victoria Street
London
SW1H 0NF

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander,

All the books you had on your list that can be bought, have been.

Unless you have another 'wodge' of books that you *know for certain* you will have to buy, we will need to arrange a fighting fund.

Everyone,

Florence had some good ideas. I can't find the post (took 20 mins to find the wish list!), but we need to sort something out tomorrow. I'll post this again at a 'peak' time.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Mark,

Wow I hadn't had a chance to check the list yet so didn't realise they had all been bought. Thanks everyone.

I am setting up www.privacyonline.org.uk over the next couple of weeks and I will put a donation link on the site to help pay for hosting and expenses so if people want to they can. It has turned out quite expensive so far (about £250 for both trips to London and I will have to hire a car to visit the Earl of Northesk as I don't want to risk my head gasket going all the way up in Scotland) but fortunately my student loans arrived last Monday so I have been able to cover it all. I will be starting my taxi driving job in June which will keep things on a financial level footing and hopefully pay the fees for my Masters in October; so things should be ok and I don't want people to start making donations they can't afford that would just be silly.

Plus it is a little embarrassing for me when people talk about donating and buying books. Don't get me wrong it is very much and sincerely appreciated, moving even, but I didn't start this work 2 months ago to make a buck, I didn't even expect to be in anything like the position I am currently in with regards being an unofficial spokesperson and going to these important events. I was just appalled by the news of Phorm and wanted to do something to try and stop it. That remains true to this day, spending my own money to try and stop this technology from deployed and the future seeing more and more function creep is not something I see as a burden, it is something I see as essential in order to protect the rights of my son, my partner, my family, my friends and everyone else.

Kent accused me of being in this for self promotion today, which was a particularly unpleasant thing to say and is utterly wrong.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You miss understood Kent Alexander :D he was talking about himself then :LOL: WE all know you are in this because you are our best hope of winning nothing more or less and like the rest of us feel Kent is untrustworthy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap: :clap: :clap:
Just keep on keeping on Alexander. You are doing a grand job and have my heartfelt thanks.

As regards Kent's remark I would expect any reasonable person to see it as an almighty example of him shooting himself in the foot by revealing what a petty, small minded individual he apparently is.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Still one that can be bought but it is used then again the book is out of print so used it would have to be..

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-lis...&condition=all

I reallyu don't know where the other book can be sourced from..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I only added those with the hopes that they might become available in the future. I will check it periodically just on the off chance. Given how much that BIG book on Human Rights dropped in price over night I figured anything is possible. I don't think other people can buy used books from the list, I never realised that at the time.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Of course it's wrong; the man is a fool!

If I recall correctly, the ideas to pay for your expenses and/or you posting a books wish list were made by forum members, who refused to take no for an answer from you when you said it wasn't necessary.

Kent's remarks, as Mick says, show him to be nothing more than a petty, small minded man.

I, for one, will definitely contribute towards the cost of running your new site; you've earned it IMHO.

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Get your site on-line asap, Alexander, so we can carry on making some contributions. Multi-millionaire Kent accused you of being in it for the money.:dunce:

Given the man clearly has no class, you can explain his behaviour, Squeeky-botty time.

Do you know when the interview is going to be on the box?

I must admit, I'm starting to get a bit of a rosey glow about phorm/webwise and the BBC.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well I am off to get some sleep and Alexander after all Kent has put you through time to get a drink and go off to dream of a phormless future.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Businesses urged to protect customer data


"The Information Commissioner, Richard Thomas, has urged British businesses and the public sector to make data protection a key concern, after revealing that he received reports of 94 security breaches during 2007"

""The evidence shows that more must be done to eradicate inexcusable security breaches," Thomas explained."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Putting phorm on ISP networks with Kent holding the rains is the biggest security breach anyone would ever need nopthing would be safe...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"Perhaps we need a new Commissioner, not a bean counter." the general public replied.;)

----

Tues 20.06 : Cracker - Johnny Arrowmaker :tu:

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...lay=discussion

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you for your continued hard work on our behalf Alexander. I realise that you are happy to pay for travel expenses etc out of your own pocket, but you are doing this for all of us as well as yourself. I'm glad you'll have a donate page on your new website. I couldn't afford any of the books, but I will definitely make a donation through your website.

As for Kent's attitude and behaviour towards you, well, his belligerence just beggars belief. I am truly disgusted. And amazed that he would act like this in front of the cameras.

Well done Alexander for not stooping to his level.

Ali ((huggsss))

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

remember people, better to keep it simple, basic and on message when explaining to the less informed news reporters and their readers.

dont let them obfuscate or mislead, remind them at every opportunity to ram this basic fact home....

the fact (its not debate) theres UK/EU law , and they are knowingly braking it, as we have told them....
and given them the url documents to read.

perhaps people might want to go an educate the readers and writer here what "non-intrusive" means, as in to not intrude or brake current UK/EU law that states they cant place or read cookies on your machine or in your ram without your express consent.

"Phorm says its software is non-intrusive"

that the unlawful placement,storing and/or reading of this cookie is a byproduct of the unlawful wiretaping layer7 kit on the other end of the bb wire, and commercial piracy of the users and websites copyrighted datastream, plus potential personal identifying data content, again without consent or legal due process.

"Phorm says:"that it will delete all clickstream data that isn’t useful to its marketers, including clicks relating to health conditions or other sensitive matters.""

that this so called "The nonprofit think tank" does infact advise the UK Govt members at the highest levels.

and this comment

"the challenge that all behavioral marketers face is that consumers want more targeted, more relevant advertising and content..."

needs special consideration for giving them the facts, and educating them, as in UK/EU comsumers do not want advertising, period..., the UK is not the US were you cant tell were the next ad starts and the tv program begins or ends, we have fixed periods were we know we can hit he mute button, shame we cant get a auto mute for that though, should be easy as the volume always goes up ;)



http://blogs.mediapost.com/online_minute/?p=1720

---------- Post added at 07:07 ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 ----------
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ne/default.stm
When can I watch Click?

UK viewers:
Saturday
0645 BBC One / BBC News 24 (Short version)
1130 BBC News 24

Sunday
0430 BBC One / BBC News 24
0745 BBC News 24 (Short version)
1130 BBC News 24

Monday
0030 BBC News 24


International viewers: Click is also shown on the BBC's commercial and international channel, BBC World News. Please visit the BBC World News website for full scheduling details:

---------- Post added at 07:11 ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 ----------

BTW,is anyone going to write and submit any Cable Forum Front Page news reports leading up to this, and submit it to Mick?

---------- Post added at 07:21 ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 ----------

NebuAd and the almost forgotten "Experian, the Credit Reference Agency, to track net users" from April 6th.

plus the mobile wireless phorm like tracking by Orange are good fertile ground if you dont want to rehash the pure Phorm stories perhaps.

you choose, and take advantage of the Cable Forum News page and its ability to be picked up by the world wide News wire coverage within minutes of being posted.

---------- Post added at 07:39 ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 ----------

http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2...phorm-cookies/

"
April 22nd, 2008 at 17:49 UTC by Richard Clayton
Last week I gave a talk at the 80/20 Thinking organised “town hall meeting” about the Phorm targeted advertising system. You can see my slides here, and eventually there will be some video here.

One of the issues I talked about was the possibility of stealing Phorm’s cookies, which I elaborate upon in this post.

I have written about Phorm’s system before, and you can read a detailed technical explanation, but for the present, what it is necessary to know is that through some sleight-of-hand, users whose ISPs deploy Phorm will end up with tracking cookies stored on their machine, one for every website they visit, but with each containing an identical copy of their unique Phorm tracking number."......

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done Alexander. I call that a result. What program was the interview for please?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

click! , hence my post about the times for next saturdays morning show above.

its the short version first so it may appear there or if not , then it should appear on the full show later in the day.

but i suspect it will be prime news, and so be in all the shows and edits.

i hope its not just more of the same "its a cookie thing"..... as seen in the last few days though, remember its a "Broken Laws thing" not mearly an obscure to the average users "cookie" thing.

we dont know what they intend covering alongside the Alexander report and so we cant really know how the director will edit it to suit the tech angle of the program.

did you hang around Alexander and walk and talk with the IT show floor attendee's?, any juicy Tech bits ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Kent is really showing his true colours now. I'd expect his tactics to get increasingly dirtier and desperate. Remember people, "let the fool confirm his status upon himself" and don't stoop to his level.

Well done Alexander. I know the BBC have to remain impartial in their reporting but his arrogance and lack of class should shine through irrespective of the editing. I only hope your comments get equal airtime compared to his bluster, spin and misdirection.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Firstly thanks again to Alexander, as for Kent's behaviour I wouldn't expect any different, he came here expecting an easy ride and he hasn't had that, and you as one of these nasty people will be a target for his toys as he ejects them from his pram.

Abe books often have rare and out of print books, both new and secondhand might be worth a look http://www.abebooks.co.uk/

Hope this helps

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ohh dear ...... and exporting the personal data outside the UK at that.

people really should try and make the effort to send a registered post 'data protection act notice' removing the right to Export your data outside the UK to every single company you consumer contract with, at the very least.

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...-phone-company

"
Carphone Warehouse dumps personal data in street

Details found in Lisbon skip

By Nick Farrell: Tuesday, 22 April 2008, 7:50 AM
THE supplier of mobile phones to the Queen has been dumping punters' personal data in a very public recycling bin because it is too expensive to keep....."

...
"
According to sources within the company, the material used to be stored. However last Thursday it was decided to abandon this policy because it cost too much.

The Lisbon office, known as the "Departamento de Reconciliação" in Portuguese, is semi-independent and operates under a service level agreement with Carphone Warehouse UK and other offices across the EU.

Apparently managers consulted this agreement and decided that it made no mention of keeping unnecessary documents and decided to stick the lot in the rubbish bin."....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Many thanks for that. I'll pop these details up over on BT Beta forums.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

cool, iv not read the BetaBT for a few days so keep us informed..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's been a while since I had any involvement in media work but I wouldn't have thought the rules have changed all that much. Kent's classless conduct (I'm sure I mentioned the lack of class I felt he showed at the public meeting?) shows just how much of a threat he sees coming from Alexander and, by association, people who are challenging him.

I'd be disappointed in the BBC (were I not the cynical beast that I am) for not at least chastising Kent privately and insisting Alexander gets a fair chance to speak. Would John Humphrys, Jeremy Paxman, Peter Allen, Eddie Mair or (God forbid) Nicky Campbell tolerate that?

However, Kent's behaviour shows what he thinks of people who prefer to think for themselves and challenge what they believe to be wrong.

I'll say it again for newcomers and PhormUKPRteam: Questions and challenges have been published in the public domain. If Phorm is the open, honest and transparent company it claims to be then it need only answer those questions and challenges openly, honestly and independently verifiably. Like publishing the full details of the legal opinion and the QC who provided it.

Kent's accusation of "self promotion" is offensive and quite frankly hypocritical given his own conduct in the media. The only thing Alexander is promoting is the law of the land which Kent and his company are breaking.

Alexander, are you not able to get a cheap flight to somewhere near Earl Northesk's residence and hire a car from the airport? Might be less draining than driving all the way? My knowledge of Scotland only extends to parts of Edinburgh though (including an excellent fish restaurant and several excellent hostelries *smile*)

Thanks to Alexander for doing the Click interview and for retaining his dignity and class.

I've picked up some excellent books via abebooks and happily recommend them.

Happy St George's Day to one and all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...me/default.stm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would like to echo those who have thanked Alexander for the time and expense he went to in order to travel down to the bbc click interview. Kent has shown his true colours and shown that the leopard hasn't changed its spots. I am astonished by his distinct lack of class and poor manners. I am glad you maintained the moral high ground Alexander. I agree with those who say that Kent must be rattled.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

...and to PhormUKPRteam, please pass on our warmest regards to Kent.

EDIT: Ooops, I forgot the :rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wanted too but I couldn't stand. I have blisters and sores all over my feet after walking about 1.5 miles in dress shoes. I can barely walk today.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Posted the click info on ISPreview for the members to see.

Regards to Kent for proving we are right with is attitude to Alexander, can't trust him won't trust him and if VM, BT and talktalk do they will be losing money soon..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The postie has just delivered a response from my MP (lab), which includes a copy of the standard BT handout regarding Phorm, but also a copy of the early day motion web-site to show that she has signed it. A mixed bag, but also an offer to follow up if I'd like her to. Reviewing the EDM site I see there are a number of Labour MPs on there.

Just looked again at the BT waffle and it seems to be a Parliamentary special dated 4th April 2008 - the title is "BT and Phorm" and it is a "BT Public Affairs Briefing Note" It has the usual DPA stuff on there.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just for the record I think the interview/debate is in next week's Click not this week but it might be worth someone recording this week just in case I have my wires crossed.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've just rung the contact number on the bottom of the sheet and the named person was not available, but I left a message with a very helpful, polite colleague for them to ring back, and when I mentioned what it was regarding, was told that they'd heard a lot about this recently. Maybe the message is getting to the right ears.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Bet the paper it is on is too hard to hang it in the lou :)

Sad that BT only see the £££ signs and not the content that they are not supposed to see since they are only carriers of out packets..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander : You shouldn't be too hard on Kent - he's a man under pressure. [false sympathy face]

http://tinyurl.com/2wtg5a/phorm/3month.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

PhormUKPRTeam,

You really should explain to your client (Kent) that it is not a good idea for him to try and play the PR role, especially when he has hired professionals to do the job for him. His behaviour in public makes your function in this whole sordid affair much more difficult.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Patricia Hewitt on Daily Politics now BBC2

It's not a Q&A session but you may want to mail

daily dot politics at bbc co uk

I have asked them to ask PH why BT have not been investigated by police or HO.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK.. So on the one side, we have a multi millionaire who stands to make millions more from the sale of targetted ads. Said millionaire intends to install equipment in the ISPs network that will cache (and apparently anonymise) the sites each user visits and serves them ads based upon the sites they visit.

Oddly, despite the company's assurances that they don't process any personally identifiable data outside the ISP's network, they have established data centres in at least one country that doesn't have a strong equivalent to our data protection act, and, indeed, doesn't have a good record on privacy.

In terms of evidence, all this company has so far offered is assurances from themselves (which I take with a pinch of sat due to both the profit motive and the company history) and consultants who, while they have excellent records in the field of privacy, are presumably not working for free, so will profit if the company succeeds.

On the other side of the debate we have someone who has given a lot ot time and made a lot of effort to fight the company owned by the multi millionaire, and who's only profit (AFAIK) is helping people not get spied upon.

Said multi millionaire apparently is unable to answer straight questions, preferring instead to get abusive.

The anti-phorm aliiance (which I count myself amongst) has so far a lot more conclusive evidence. It's not perfect, but it's a lot more than just vague assurances.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I actually think that somebody at Phorm has had a good thinking head on for this.

Nothing they are doing is illegal (if what we've been told is true). All the illegality occurs before the "Phorm servers" get the data. Unless inciting a breach of RIPA is illegal, it is only the ISP which is guilty of interception, they are also the ones processing personal data to anonymise it.

No doubt the whole "Phorm system" is being very bad, but Kent and co. have palmed off the naughty bits to the ISPs.

The sheet I mentioned earlier includes a couple of choice phrases:

1. "No data is passed outside BT's network." Which made me wonder about the logs which have been mentioned.

2. [from the special web-page for the 10,000 invitees] -"At this point, those customers invited have three options: they can choose to switch on BT Webwise in effect 'opt-in', choose not to take part, or choose to find out more information." - emphasis mine.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

For those who want to check if their MP has signed Don Foster's EDM, they can check the list of signatories here: http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDe...52&SESSION=891.

I'm pleased to report that my MP's name is on there.

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Here, Here, well done Alexander.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

btw Richard put up his slides of the PIA in a pdf
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rnc1/talks/080415-phorm.pdf

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not a good enough head. Inciting any crime is a crime in itself and I would say that even if the breach of RIPA is carried out before the Phorm controlled equipment they are more complicit than just inciting (which is bad enough).

Regarding Kent and the Click recording - I couldn't of expected anything else from Kent, the man oozes arrogance and ignorance so well done Alexander for not coming down to his level (though I very much doubt you could if you tried)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Completely agree, well done Alexander, and thankyou for all the work you're putting into this :clap:

Well, I can't say I'm surprised at the way Kent seems to have behaved. I'm sure it wasn't a nice experience for you Alexander, but it really proves to me how much the pressure is starting to get to Phorm and in particulat Kent if he is not even capable of civility. I'd take it as a complement, it shows that you are getting somewhere for him to resort to treating you as if you were an enemy.

To quote Winston Churchill:

"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Regarding the Early Day Motion 1311 (http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDe...px?EDMID=35552).

Have we got a template or standard letter which we are sending our MPs to bring this EDM to their attention?

Having looked at the signatories on the site, I notice my MP, Phil Willis, is not present and I would like to contact his office to ascertain whether or not he is aware of the EDM or the problem it is trying to address?

Cheers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Simon's point is a good one. Entertaining though it may be to hurl abuse at 121media and their b@st@rd scumware offspring, it IS the ISP's who are the villains who are prepared to experiment illegally on their customers. privacy be damned! Say Phorm are forced out of business, do you think the ISPs will stop looking?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just had a reply from my MP, Bob Ainsworth (Lab)
He states that he has taken up this issue with both the Minister concerned(?) and Michael Cashman MEP, Labour's spokesperson in the European Parliament on Justice and Home Affairs and has asked them both to respond.

Judging from the members on here who have had replys from their representatives over the last few days, this issue does, at last seem to be gaining a bit of momentum in parliament.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

btw , :welcome: No.36 and :welcome: No.37

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can someone remind me of the website to use for contacting your MP which tracks if they respond please.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Something occurred to me earlier regarding OIX. Normally advertising is delivered based on the clients target audience which includes countries they wish to advertise in.

Given that OIX doesn't use IP at all (the normal method of determining which country someone is in) how are they going to ensure that a company Idaho who only deal with US customers, aren't going to be advertised to someone in the UK, or Singapore, or anywhere else in the world?

Phorm plan to take this system international so presumably their OIX platform will have a number of clients who only want to advertise to their local demographic? This is likely to deliver a lot of poorly targeted adverts and cost clients money.

Of course, the only way for OIX to do this would be to either have a separate server for each country (which would still require the use of IP to know which OIX server to grab the ads from) or they are going to need to add something about the user's country into the cookie.

The realms of privacy "protection" are shrinking daily it seems. Country of residence is private information.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This battle will set precedents.

It is being fought on two fronts: the Phorm front and the ISP front. Until some aggrieved BT customers who were affected by the secret tests get BT's corporate backside into court the ISPs will still keep looking into this technology. As seemingly far better informed people than the ISPs seem to be we need to educate the ISPs that what they are doing is illegal and unethical. We can do this by pressuring them as customers who will leave if they implement Phorm and by educating people everywhere about what Phorm really is and really represents.

If BT suffers a heavy legal judgement then that will shatter confidence in them, in Phorm and severely damage any thoughts ISPs might have about using this "product".

VM reiterated to me yesterday that it is not a forgeone conclusion that Phorm will be implemented. So keep up the pressure on Virgin Media and they may decide not to implement. The Guardian have already rejected Phorm with a very polite but scathing put down.

Phorm clearly see people like us as a major threat to their scheme. Making as many people as possible aware of the facts about Phorm (making sure people know this cookie business is all horse manure, your data still goes to their systems unless a true network based opt out is provided), showing Phorm in its true light and pressuring government to finally realise that inaction about BT and Phorm is not an option.

It's an ongoing battle - pressure needs to be kept up on the ISPs and Phorm and awareness needs to be increased.

I see PhormUKPRteam have disappeared again...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Exactly and thats why i keep mentioning the small claims and injunctions and learning to use them to our advantage....
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...l#post34535463

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree with this, but for myself, I know my ISP (BT) would be delighted to see me leave, probably give me a golden handshake just to get rid of me, so I think I will stay on as an irritant.

Some more BT responses pending - I'll be back when I've got the email.

Roll on with those "secret trial" court cases! (both civil and criminal)
It will be so interesting comparing what BT say under oath in court, with what they have been saying in public up to now.

Remember - the proposed latest trials by BT have been delayed for well over a month. About six weeks ago, BT managers were even saying (mistakenly) they had started, then that they would be starting in mid-March. They have not been delayed for nothing. Massive rethink going on - because they know they daren't break the law for a third year running! The first two times, 2006 & 2007, it was illegal interception without informed consent. This time they really have to be sure it's all legal, including the RIPA, DPA, and that nasty business of somehow getting informed consent from website owners, and not breaking browsing for those who block unwanted Webwise/Phorm domains, and working out how they can make the trial invitation legally in the first place ( I think they were planning just to interrupt a browsing session, now I think they are realising that they have to do it via their own customer service site on a customer visit to bt.com or the BTYahoo! home page.)

And what's happening? - delay! If they were as confident of legality as they claim to be publicly, those trials would have already happened. And for the whole of those 6 weeks the Phorm share price has been falling, falling falliing - I see after yesterdays brief rally its headed off down again. Good.

That's all a guess on my part, we'll see how it pans out. Keep up the great work people!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Deep Packet Inspection is a technology that can't be uninvented, so I guess that this is just one of many privacy battles that lie ahead. I could understand an argument (without necessarily supporting it) that DPI could be used to counter kiddie-porn, or terrorism, or even Spam, but it is somewhat bizarre that the first application to hit the streets is for something as morally useless as advertising. However I can't help feeling that the ISPs are going to find themselves on the wrong side of the DPI argument once HMG starts applying the snooping pressure, at which point they may find themselves regretting taking the Phorm $$$.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: No.800

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

;)
glad someones keeping track of the yes's

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK I need a nap, will be back this evening.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

New member, sorry if you may have answered this question before:

As an VM/Xbox Live user, am I right in assuming that this may cause 'lag' within my games?

Will Phorm be collecting this data, and worse, will this impact on my expierence?

What are the chances of MS offering us Live users an anti-phorm patch?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So we currently have 800 who won't be opting in versus 37 who will.

And Kent claims "everyone wants Phorm"? or should that be "everyone who doesn't know the full facts and illegality wants Phorm"?

An old mate of mine reminded me that "form" is also slang for having a criminal record.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: X Chris X
from the network POV, there can be NO patch, as the facts as they are means every single bit of your datastream passes to the ISP/Phorm DPI kit.

a simplifyed layout looks something like this:

your CM<===>the VM UBR<===>Phorm Gifted Deep-Packet-Inspection-Kit-For-Profit<===>the website you asked for.


as you can see, you might not know it, but your being intercepted at all times once it goes live even if they dont pass your copywrited datastream on to the anonymiser kit and instead divert it to were you wanted to go in the first place, after setting and storing/reading an illegal cookie without permission etc.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have received another response from another two MEPs of mine.

Dear Mr Freeman,

Thank you very much for your email outlining your concerns about how the Phorm system could represent a serious breach of privacy of internet users. I am also responding on behalf of the office of ******* ******** MEP. (obscured by me because of permission/privacy issues)

Please be assured that your concerns have been noted. Thank you once again for contacting this office and for bringing this information about Phorm to our attention.
Yours sincerely

************************************************** ************************

Its not as good as I would have hoped but from the closing paragraph I take it to mean that neither of the two MEPs had been aware of the issue previously but now are. That at least is something positive.

I am still most reassured by the response I got from the Earl of Northesk and will be working to complete letters that have been on the backburner lately so that I can get them into the post this evening. We need to keep the pressure on.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thankyou, I've now sent a letter to my MP.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

On the subject of Amazon et al using phorm/oix, is there a list somewhere, i.e. a "name and shame"?

Gardening direct dropped a tracking cookie on me the other day (been a customer for ages), so I told them where to go using short sharp jerking movements.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

there is a list on badphorm.... :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

letter sent via writetothem.com to my MEP's,
Neil Parish MEP
Graham Booth MEP
Glyn Ford MEP
Roger Knapman MEP
Graham Watson MEP

---------- Post added at 16:17 ---------- Previous post was at 15:58 ----------

which you can find here
http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...ewforum.php?21

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Most all shopping cart software will drop a cookie on you so they can manage your shopping cart. Just like this site has dropped a cookie to enable you to keep your login state active between sessions, it is a knee jerk reaction to expect the internet to carry on functioning as it does with no cookies.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Where? Badphorm doesn't work properly under Firefox.

If I try and download the sample letter for VM for example, I get;
"Download Error


---------- Post added at 16:32 ---------- Previous post was at 16:31 ----------


I said TRACKING cookie...there's a difference.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

List is here http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...ewforum.php?21

although if its only these seven we have nothing to worry about ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

wouldnt it be just a nice slice of cake with cream topping ;) to issue a named person injunction on these same directors and managers ,as iv been saying for a while now ;) ,alexander, did those books by any chance clarify those howto points, and about potentially using the SC to do it?.

http://www.openrightsgroup.org/2008/...vice-on-phorm/
"
FIPR calls on Home Office to withdraw misleading advice on Phorm

Posted by Becky in Computer Law, Data Protection, Net Neutrality, Privacy, Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act at April 23rd, 2008
The Foundation for Information Policy Research (FIPR) has today sent the Home Office in-depth legal analysis [pdf] of the Phorm behavioural advertising system.

The analysis has been produced by FIPR’s General Counsel (and ORG Advisory Council member) Nicholas Bohm, and complements the technical analysis produced by Richard Clayton earlier this month [pdf]. The analysis shows that Phorm’s systems involve interception of communications contrary to the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, fraud, contrary to the Fraud Act, and therefore unlawful processing of personal data, contrary to the Data Protection Act.

It states that individual directors and managers of the Internet Service Providers involved could be criminally liable for these offences, if roll out of Phorm goes ahead.

FIPR want the Home Office to withdraw informal advice they issued in February, which FIPR say wrongly concluded the system is lawful, creating “an obstacle to the just enforcement of the law”.

At the public meeting attended by Phorm and their critics last week, Simon Davies of 80/20 Thinking Ltd identified the legality of Phorm under RIPA as a legitimate issue, but urged participants not to get bogged down in a question which, in the end, can only be decided in a court of law.

Hopefully, FIPR’s legal analysis will bring UK citizens one step closer to an answer to the question “Is Phorm legal?”.

As Richard Clayton observes:

“The Home Office’s superficial analysis said that the system would be lawful.

Given their batting average at the High Court, relying upon their opinion was always unwise - this new paper spells
out the errors they have made, and makes it essential that their report is withdrawn.”

Previous posts on Phorm:

• Phorm: public meeting announced for next Tuesday
• Phorm analysis out
• ORG and FIPR meet with Phorm
• Phorm update
• The Phorm storm "

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok I am back. I just posted two letters one of which is a letter to the Computer Crime Unit of the Metropolitan Police. I intended to send that letter a few weeks ago but for various reasons never got around to finishing it. This afternoon I finished it and they should receive it in the morning hopefully. This is what I wrote:

Dear Sir

I write to you today to fulfill my civic duty and report a crime to you. You may or may not be aware of the recent controversy regarding an ex-spyware company called Phorm and the deal it has signed with BT, Virgin Media and TalkTalk which are the UKs 3 largest Internet Service Providers.

The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA) makes intercepting internet traffic without a warrant or consent an offence. Recently BT has admitted to carrying out secret trials of Phorms technology in 2006 and 2007 which may have involved up to 108,000 users.. They have admitted to not having asked for consent or permission from those users involved in these trials and therefore have potentially committed a minimum of 108,000 criminal offences under section 1 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000.

This is not just my view but also the view of the Foundation for Information Policy Research who are advisors to the government. Relevant links giving background information can be found at the bottom of this letter.

An acquaintance has already tried to report these crimes once in a phone call to Scotland Yard last month but the telephone operator refused to issue a Crime Reference Number. Given that this criminally illegal interception was on a huge scale such a refusal is unacceptable. As far as I am aware BT is not above the law of the land and therefore should not be subject to protection against appropriate investigation/prosecution.

In my opinion these offences should be investigated urgently but so far this issue has been handled like a cynical game of pass the parcel with the Information Commissioners Office saying that RIPA is the responsibility of the Home Office and the Home Office saying it is the responsibility of the police to investigate contraventions of RIPA.

Given that the Home Office insists that its the responsibility of the police to investigate, I look forward to your reply detailing what actions you will be taking to investigate the BT/Phorm trials of 2006 and 2007. Useful links to background information can be found on page two of this letter and if you require more information please do not hesitate to contact me. Please note that, unless explicity asked not to do so, I intend to publish online any response I get from you.

Yours sincerely

************************************************** **************
At the bottom of the letter I included 4 links for background information.

If others wish to use what I wrote as a very basic template then rewrite it and improve upon it then post their own letter to the computer crime unit then please feel free to do so :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

...Why do I get the nasty feeling that "seven" is merely the crystalline flake on the very peak of a sodding big iceberg???

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Bzzz just scanned your input on this page through my phorm detector shows me a few things according to my super unique database profiling ;) heres your ad's for geology,chocolate,and impact on the north pole report.

Totally relevant advertising wouldnt you just love it ;)
or is there deeper keylogging kit locked away in source code ooo :).

Most likely would be the same old totally irrelevant coming down to which advertiser paid biggest wonga as ever.
Phorm fail yet again, if anyone would like to point out 1 reason anyone from phorm whishes to spin on what benefit it has id be glad to take it apart for them in normal users speak.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OMFG - that paper has made my day.

Can I draw everyones attention to paragraph 43. to parapharase, having established Phorm's cookie system is false representation it only remains for a jury to decide if it is dishonest. I think that is going to be an easy case for any prosecutor to make. Just read the jury all the security advisorys on 121media.

On a more serious note. I shall be sending this hardcopy to my mp to read. keep the pressure up etc.

The paper also states that directors and managers are criminally liable if RIPA is breached by them in deploying Phorm. Make sure you remind every senior customer service representative you speak to, get them nervous as well.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm only on the third page and I'm loving it :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Be intersting to see share price tommorow ;).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't forget to Digg, Stumbleupon, etc this! I've posted it to reddit already.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've sent those links over to BT Beta forums so they can enjoy the deep feeling of utter joy too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

posted a link on ISPreview :D

---------- Post added at 17:57 ---------- Previous post was at 17:56 ----------

Hello PhormUKPRteam care to read the link and give us the spin version ASAP please. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And don't forget bettypoos. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I know that ivillage is part of an online points scheme. You may well find that the other participants in this scheme are tied in with OIX as well...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wouldn't buy anything advertised by Phorm system since doing so helps to link who you are to the cookie..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's ironic that the PhormUKPRteam are probably being paid masses better than most county cricket spin bowlers to purvey undeniably vastly inferior spin...

Reading through this I don't see much room for spin to be honest.

This is good stuff, I'm taking it with me now while I pop out to get something to celebrate St George's Day.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I guess we need a snappy URL for an OIX member name 'n shame webpage. Creative caps on please.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've popped the story on digg..

http://digg.com/security/FIPR_asks_H...g_Phorm_advice

I don't know I'm out all day, and come back home to this excellent document :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It seems Mr Ertugrul has finally came round to our side of thinking,as he's signed the downing street online petition.

petitions.pm.gov.uk
:clap: :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I followed the email route to the Attorny General's Office. This is, I'm afraid, what was said...

I said:

// MY EMAIL //
In 2006 and 2007 BT now openly admits that it secretly intercepted thousands of their customer's communications. They repeatedly state that no personal information was retained or used but I do not understand why this precludes them from investigation and possibly prosecution because as I understand it, the interceptions they carried out are in direct contravention of the law, according to 'RIPA'

The Information Commissioner directed complaints to the Home Office. The Home Office has stated that they have no investigatory powers and cannot require an investigation by the police. I have seen no indications that BT customers who know they were affected have achieved any action from their local police services.

I therefore write to you to ask whom is responsible for ensuring that the actions of individuals and the BT plc company are properly investigated because it would appear that this is being ignored. If they broke the law, this cannot be allowed to remain unchecked.

What steps have been taken already? What process is being followed?

Thank you.
// END OF MY EMAIL //

They replied:

// EMAIL FROM NAMED INDIVIDUAL xxxxx.xxxxx@attorneygeneral.gsi.gov.uk //

Thank you for your email to the Attorney Generals Office, your email has been passed to me for reply.

The Attorney General is principal legal advisor to government and as such is unable to offer legal aid or assistance to individuals, this office does not perform a investigatory function and in regards to your request we are unable to assist.

If you feel a crime has been committed then you should contact your local police authority for them to investigate. If you have not already tried them you could also contact the Office of Telecommunications Ombudsman, their web site address is www.otelo.org.uk

Yours Sincerely

Correspondence Unit
// END QUOTE //

So, who are we saying should actually be doing something about investigating and bringing BT to account for this???

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:LOL: On closer analysis it appears that a Mr Kent Ertugrul has signed it twice! Could this be taken as a sign of a rephormed sinner?

:clap::clap::clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Dont worry hank the new report has just popped Phorms buisness model for good ;).

According to there 100 people surveyed though people want it, so when a webwise cd pops through your letterbox you know what to do ;).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Evening,
As mentioned previously, Virgin media keep saying 'nothing has been decided'. However, within the last couple of days, Lynn Millar CFO of Phorm has been quoted as saying:
“Our three ISP partners have strongly reassured us that they are in
no way reconsidering their decision to deploy or are in any way reducing
their level of commitment to the project�

Someone somewhere isn't being totally honest; now why doesn't that surprise me!

Colin

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As he's using the xbox live service,which is used for online gaming and to purchase film/tv programmes ( and both support using credit & debit card payments through the console )on his games console,this ,i believe,doesn't use cookies at all.

So how on earth can all these users protect themselves ,when there's no way for them to opt out or not opt in ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hank, if you wish you can use my letter I sent to the computer crime unit of the met police this evening as a template to do similar or to send it to your local police station. Its not the best letter I have ever written but it could be used as a basic template that you would rewrite and build upon. It can be found here:

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post4575.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OF1975: Good letter to the Police - looking forward to the response you get!

Alex: Well done on the BBC Click piece, hope they show Kent for what he is. Sorry about your car. You really should have a mobile phone lol - understand your principled position on it.

Great news on the FIPR!! Keep it up everyone :)

ISPy - No thanks. Phorm? NO. STOP. DO NOTWANT.

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

thats obviously just a stock answer by an aid , its clear they dont understand the points raised as can be sumised by the reference to OTELO.

infact its in the same vain as simons at the home office and the ICO office first replys when this all started..

obfuscateing the senders email in this case means we cant follow up and explain it and all the points raised in detail to them.

perhaps next time you write any letters in reply, you make sure you include the fact you will be publishing it in full on the cable forum unless asked not to, to make it clear we require direct meaningful answers to the question's put.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As far as I can understand, the system works using a Phorm controlled machine placed in each ISP's network. The machine is only controlled by Phorm. The ISP has no access.

I could be wrong, but, tbh, if this is true, I am staggered that ANY isp would risk their customer's security in such a way. I know for a fact that we wouldn't where I work. OK, I realise that we have to monitor security more tightly, being a corporate environment, but still..

Also, assuming it is true, if someone were to hack one of these machines, I am pretty sure it could be persuaded to deliver spyware to every user. If any ISP were to be found infecting their users in that way (and the users *would* blame the ISP, not Phorm), they would probably be forced out of business.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just wanted to say that I am currently experiencing a warm glow and sense of deep satisfaction having just read the FIPR report - readybrek for the soul that is.

Not sure if it's just me but it semed to read as though the author had a particular tone of voice - a sort of 'look, exactly how many different ways do I have to spell this out to you - it. is. illegal.' tone if you know what i mean ;)

Made my day - thanks to whoever posted the link to it (i forget) :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

;)
http://www.links.org/?p=318#comment-164632