Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Thing is Seph I'd put Bojos and others (e.g. Liz Truss) evangelical pursuit of Brexit purely for personal gain and contrary to their well documented previous stance on the subject to be the worst of all their horrendous "achievements".

---------- Post added at 23:47 ---------- Previous post was at 23:44 ----------

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Seph, I suspect your account has been hacked. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As we've seen at Dover, British business is being taken out of gear with increased delays and red tape. The UK's problem of productivity is being worsened not improved.

At the same time, whilst Britain fights over who will lead the country, the EU is moving ahead to make its financial services sector more competitive by nicking our ideas.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Less than half the French workforce turned up to man the desks. Hence the delays yesterday.

So, yes, the French were responsible for the disruption, although the people on here who try to blame our government and Brexit for everything will try to twist the facts to suit themselves. :rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Earlier this week Dover were already having to install more booths because they didn't have enough

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/20...-reduce-delays

So it can both be true that the post Brexit border checks are currently causing a general increase in the time taken, and specific issues can be down to staffing levels.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I wonder how bad the delays would have been with less than half the French workforce in the days prior to leaving the EU? Are you trying to say it's purely down to the French workers being absent?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Total fantasy. The French were manning the agreed number of booths at 09:45.

The logic is really simple, even you can understand this: if you have to check each & every passport for 90 day entry compliance and then add a passport stamp, the process will take much longer that waving through the car as was the case in the past.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Likewise we have the mugs on here who absolve the Government of blame as we bounce from one chaotic situation to the next as if they’re a completely hapless actor in every crisis they have contributed towards.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Indeed. In 2020 this was reported

https://archive.ph/2020.12.16-135817...b-e241256db4df

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Can find £120m to send nobody to Rwanda though.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Surely, the extra booths were put in place to avoid just that.

Of course, they do need to be manned to be effective. That deficiency was solely down to the French. Dragging their heels and putting problems in the way, as usual.

---------- Post added at 14:21 ---------- Previous post was at 14:18 ----------

That’s completely irrelevant. What is relevant is that we had an agreement with the French to man the extra booths from 6am. They didn’t honour the agreement.

But then, it’s OK by you when the EU fails to honour an agreement…:rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 14:23 ---------- Previous post was at 14:21 ----------

9.45 was far too late. They should have been there hours earlier, as we agreed with them, and because they weren’t, the queues built up exponentially.

---------- Post added at 14:24 ---------- Previous post was at 14:23 ----------

Of what relevance is this to yesterday’s delays, which were … probably … deliberately caused by the French?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Why would the French, as rational capitalists, go out their way to harm tourism?

The EU bogeyman argument doesn’t wash, OB. Britain has engaged in an act of self-harm and paying the price. One of these days England has to accept the problems of it’s own making rather than blaming someone else.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Because they can, and if it damages the cause of Brexit still further, then it’s fair play to them. Why change the habits of what seems to be a lifetime?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Remove the tin foil hat and the blinkers, OB.

Decades of Conservative ideology have bankrupted this country. Lemmings have consistently voted to make themselves poorer, to make Britain less competitive, to sell off it’s assets.

The bogeyman is on this side of the Channel. Not that one.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

How odd, it’s almost as if taking back control doesn’t just explicitly apply to the U.K. other nations can do as they see fit…

Suck it up, buttercup

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:tu: completely agree

In the same way as we don't export immigrants to other countries, we give them ex pats...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

em it was the UK that wanted to be a third country and all the extra bureaucracy and border checks OB

being a third country is exactly what we got cant blame France for that one was the UK's choice

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1550878727038533633

watch video on link OB

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Except that rather than address the point that the French were late to get to their booths, you prefer to divert the argument. This was the fault of the French, not of GB. Or maybe you know different…

---------- Post added at 20:25 ---------- Previous post was at 20:22 ----------

Except that Otis the EU attempting to sabotage our freedom, rather than the UK trying to damage the EU.

They are lying, scheming bureaucrats and it is not surprising that you are batting for the other side.

---------- Post added at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was at 20:25 ----------

At what point did we vote for bureaucracy? This is what we were escaping from!

The EU, even now, is trying to shackle us to conform with their stifling rules, even though we have left.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Who is more likely to be lying in this scenario - the French who have no reason to not act in good faith or the UK who have been woefully prepared and a bad faith actor throughout?

They're taking you for a fool, OB.

We are still waiting for you to tell us some EU legislation in the financial services sector that is holding us back?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The French have every reason to do just that. Their pathetic attempt to blame their failure to report for duty due to issues at the Channel Tunnel have been well and truly debunked by Eurotunnel.

Incidentally, I am not wasting my time providing links to facts that are already well known. We are all capable of surfing the internet these days to back up whatever beliefs we may have on anything.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Why provide an evidence base when you've relied so successfully on hopeless speculation to date, eh?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What about your speculation, jfman? What’s good for the goose…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What speculation?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:no::walk:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not just the French - it’s the whole of the EU treating us just as they treat every other country outside the EU/EFTA, as a Third Country; we don’t get to leave the Free Movement area, and keep Free Movement.

You’re getting what you voted for.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The EU countries have differing positions on this, but the French appear to be the most aggressive.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Source?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well, this year I have been to Portugal, Cyprus, and Croatia, and in each case we had to use the non-EU channels, get our passports inspected and stamped, so I’m not sure your statement is based in actuality.

You may blame the French for understaffing their passport controls at Dover - you can’t blame them for the fact that enhanced formal passport checks are now required at Dover.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

When we went to Tenerife, we also had to use the non EU channels, where they quickly "checked" our passports and stamped them (in and out). We did not face 5 hour delays. In fact, by far the longest delay was getting back into the country at the UK border, after we landed, where they insist in using those dreadful automated passport machines that take 10 times longer than a human.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I've had a delay getting back into the U.K quite often at Calais and likewise it's been the U.K border that is the issue but it's also partly because they now have to check every EU citizen. They want to know if they have the right to remain or if they're visiting. So an EU citizen with a right to remain holds up the line and each tourist is checked to make sure they're going to return after.

Those machines check the right to remain status.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yeah. These delays are because the French border was undermanned for the demand that was there this weekend. It's never normally that bad but a long shot.

But the whole process is slower anyway as well. I wish they could come to some arrangement independent of the EU to make it easier for UK/EU citizens to travel.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's what we should be doing. But winding up our neighbours by taking unilateral action against the NI Protocol when Article 16 exists if things aren't working out will prevent such discussions.

---------- Post added at 23:41 ---------- Previous post was at 23:36 ----------

23/6/16. Damien has explained how these new rules are delaying his entry to the UK from Calais, to give but one example.

Is your second sentence based upon something that has happened? It's hard to tell without a supporting link.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I know, I know - apparently the beggars want us to follow their rules when we want to visit their countries or trade with them.

Apparently, sovereignty only counts if you’re British…

---------- Post added at 23:51 ---------- Previous post was at 23:50 ----------

Francophobia, no matter what you may believe, isn’t evidence…

;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There were no EU citizens, just returning UK citizens.
Those machines are terminally slow, one malfunctioned as well, making even more delays. Automation is not always the answer.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And the Tories want to cut 91,000 civil servants. Well, did before BoJo got the chop.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yes and the only one most of us wanted cut was bozo himself q

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Haha well, there's a distinction between the buffoon at the head of Government and the civil service.

Interestingly, he'd probably fail the developed vetting required for a senior civil service role due to his links with Lebedev and the KGB. Prior to his ascension to the top job, I seem to recall things being kept off his desk deliberately in the FCO.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There's a good reason why we've not been able to find any to exploit after two and a half years of trying including appeals in a national newspaper. Clue: It's not because of Covid.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You are wrong. The French had manned the booths they were allotted at 09:45. The delays continued yesterday and will continue still when the volumes surge. The French requested more booths for the forecast holiday volumes but were denied.

Here's the truth, not the gaslighting:

Dover port boss blames Brexit for delays as he explains passport 'checks and stamps'

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not quite.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Good point.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sound in theory, but if the government aren’t prepared to stump up the cash for a few new booths then I doubt they’ll stump up the money required for the work required for your suggestion

---------- Post added at 14:25 ---------- Previous post was at 14:23 ----------

Would also possibly cause a decrease in the amount of Eurostar & ferries able to run per day

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I was referring more just to delays in Calais for either the ferries or the Eurotunnel. You have those checks and then additional ones for anyone that isn't a UK Citizen.

Those machines are how they check who you are though so I don't see them ever going.

The U.K Government doesn't want this because they want to check whose coming into the country before they cross the channel. It would be easier for immigrants to get across and then once in the U.K it's more complicated for the Government to process them.

I am not sure why Brexit makes much of a difference into why you would want this agreement or not anyway. It's just easier for both sides to process passport checks at the same time.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Validity period now needs to be checked
Passport now needs to be stamped

All adds processing time.

I do find it humorous that some find it acceptable that we can attempt to dictate to France how many people they should have on THEIR border control…the one that’s payed for by the French taxpayer …

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Really?

People are travelling through or to France, France should be seen to promote itself by employing enough people to process people entering their country. They’re the ones getting tourists money. So they should provide the service.

Bloody typical though that Remainiacs use these delays to attack a Democratic right to self determination. We do not need to be in the corrupted EU, to travel through to another country FFS.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No, it's nothing to do with Brexit. Just sensible queue management.

Passengers arrive more-or-less randomly at the port/terminal, so the border control staff are kept constantly busy and the queues are normally short. But the trains/ferries then cause bunching of people. If the border checks were done on arrival, there would be a huge queue as each train or ferry arrived, then the staff would be sat around doing nothing awaiting the next train or ferry.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nobody said that we did need to be in the EU, but what you do need to do is play by the rules that the country apply to non eu members which as I said consist of the ninety day validity period and also stamping.

France can do as they please we have no right to dictate they don’t need to be seen to do anything at all.

I have no problem with self determination whatsoever, I do however have a problem with those who refuse to accept there are ramifications based on decisions taken.

---------- Post added at 17:11 ---------- Previous post was at 16:55 ----------

There’s also potential requirements to provide proof of funds, proof of stay

This is applied at U.K. to Europe and people visiting the U.K.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Never have had so far m’dear

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The problem isn't Brexit by itself because we always had passport checks and the agreement on the border is independent of the EU. It's the pointless showboating between the Governments on Brexit. There must be an easy way to come to an agreement on the border but both Governments are more than happy to pick a fight on it to appease their domestic audiences. The French to show Brexit doesn't work and the British to show they're sticking it to the EU/French.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not sure what planet you are on but back on planet Earth, post-Brexit, the EU mandates passport checks that were not required before. It is not rocket science. The Port of Dover boss Doug Bannister gets it and he should know.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There are no ramifications to accept on a decision I’d take again and again.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Of course there are ramifications to the decision, it’s just if they negatively impact you or you care about those ramifications.

The very thing we’re seeing at Dover/Folkestone is a ramification
The fact tourists may be asked to provide proof of funds, accommodation, return ticket. Is a ramification

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...line-services/

[EXTRACT]

Liz Truss has pledged to embark on a “bonfire of the quangos”, saying that she would divert hundreds of millions of pounds from “bureaucratic bodies” to frontline services if she becomes Prime Minister.

The Foreign Secretary said that too many quangos “aren't delivering for the public” as she told The Telegraph that she would review all government bodies and “expunge those that aren’t fit for purpose”.

Ms Truss will cite the policy as evidence that she is the candidate for the Tory leadership who would challenge “Whitehall orthodoxy” and do away with a “business-as-usual approach”.

She said: “Too many bureaucratic bodies aren’t delivering for the public, costing hundreds of millions that should be going towards frontline services.”

It comes as, during a campaign visit on Saturday, Ms Truss was asked about her rival Rishi Sunak’s visit to Margaret Thatcher’s birthplace of Grantham and if she is a Thatcherite. She replied: “I think we need to move on. You know, we’re in the 2020s. We’re facing a global economic crisis.

“And what we need now is bold action.”

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The issues at Dover are nothing to do with Brexit. This is a pathetic attempt by France to be political. Nothing more.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I expect one of two things to happen after reading that. 1. Nothing will happen at all. 2. It'll cost the taxpayer more.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We didn’t need to have our passports stamped, or a check to see if we were spending more than 90 days out of 180 before Brexit.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

How will abolishing pointless quangos cost more? I suspect you have no idea of the extent of this problem, Grim.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Because someone will end up doing the work and it'll probably be in the private sector (milking a good profit for an old school friend or ex colleague).

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I certainly have no idea of the extent, or indeed whether it is a problem at all. Perhaps you could list a few of the ones she plans to abolish?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I travel to Europe a lot, several times a year, and there is not once I did not have my passport checked. Occasionally the French one on the U.K side just waved you though but we've always had passport checks.

The French one now just adds a stamp when checking. The U.K process is the same for U.K citizens, the electronic reader, and it's only the stupid checks we do on why EU citizens are arriving in the country that has been added.

So yes there are slightly more checks and as I said these are checks we could mutually agree to skip. The French allow U.K citizens in without the stamp and we stop the twenty questions everytime we see an EU passport.

---------- Post added at 20:03 ---------- Previous post was at 20:01 ----------

No it is slower to get though at Dover now, just not as bad as this weekend has made out.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As someone who voted to remain, just because I thought the extrication process would be a shitshow, I can also appreciate that for most the main driver for Brexit was just to leave the EU.

Regardless of any other implication

The fact we have left the EU, means for the majority of leavers Brexit was a success.

Anything subsequent to this is…………………subsequent to this.

Remainers can bang on about everything and anything but there were no guarantees of immediate sunlight uplands. Brexit advantages, if any, would be long term not short term.

It’s also a mute point, it’s happened, we’re not going back.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well you do now. You’re entering a different country and territory.

I won’t have any of you Remainiacs tell me I voted wrong or I should accept ramifications, I will not and never will. It’s called Democracy. :mad:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But you said My response was to that point.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I take your point,

would I liked us to have stayed in the EU ? Absolutely.
Do I think we will rejoin in my lifetime ? Definitely not

I have an issue with the media that fed twaddle to their readers or viewers , the very same media who are now specifically trying to blame the French for measures that apply to ANY non EU resident entering the EU at any geographical point

https://apple.news/AYreIIX3eQM-AH0l28tc14Q

Politically left of course but the words spoken can’t be argued against and show precisely the lack of knowledge our politicians possess

I also find it deliciously ironic that there are those who voted leave because ‘I don’t want the EU telling us what to do’ (an entirely valid reason I might add) who now think we can wander round dictating how France should behave ? Kinda weird, non ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The issues at Dover are nothing to do with Brexit. It’s all on France and that knob, they call Macron.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Exactly, this is the plural situation. We are in no position to complain about France managing their border how they see fit.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Those who voted Leave believing there would be no disruption at Dover should be angry with the politicians who lied to them in that video and not the French.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Why can’t they be angry with France for having a shit border staffing issues which is what this is? :rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm not decrying Brexit. I'm just agreeing with the video compiler that those who said it would all be sweetness and light should be called out now.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well, it was common sense that there would be teething problems. Only an idiot would think that we would seamlessly migrate from one system to another like switching a light on.

The whole thing has been made worse by France. As others have pointed oit, it was their failure to gst enough staff in to man the booths on time that caused this chaos. It was the French who caused those problems with the fishermen at the Channel Islands. It is the French and some other EU countries that are causing problems on the NI border through unnecessary bureaucracy.

These problems will get sorted out. We will rid ourselves of EU laws that are holding us back. We will negotiate trade deals that provide better benefits for this country. But these things take a little time. Brexiteers always knew that. Nothing to apologise for.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-62287752

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The French are perfectly entitled to man their borders as they see fit, why should the French tax payers pay more to suit the U.K. ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Are you really being this obtuse?

I told you posts ago that Tourists visiting France are paying in to the coffers of France, they should provide relevant services. They are to blame for this bullshit political grandstanding by understaffed border controls.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

This thread is getting totally surreal. You think that the man who literally runs the Port of Dover is wrong and you think the EU should just waive through 3rd country visitors. Jeez ..

---------- Post added at 09:13 ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 ----------

Andrew is not lying. We were promised no downside and many people voted Leave on the back on this.

You've been too long in the sun! :)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Increasing any kind of workload at borders was only going to cause problems. Brexiters like Pierre accept this as a price worth paying.

---------- Post added at 09:25 ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 ----------

The unnecessary bureaucracy in NI was what your hero Boris Johnson negotiated.

Remain-voting NI is flourishing unlike the rest of the UK outside London so maybe he will count it as a success in his 2023 leadership campaign? :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Pierre voted Remain, I think I recall. :dunce:

---------- Post added at 09:31 ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 ----------

Yep, posted only yesterday…

Just goes to show Andrew, you do not read stuff properly.



---------- Post added at 09:36 ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 ----------

Goes to show how pathetic the EU is, doesn’t it, using disabled people as pawns, to get awkward by refusing these badges, thank goodness we have left these cretinous fools.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

These rules now apply at any entry point into the EU we could also be asked to provide proof of funds, proof of accommodation and proof of return ticket.

Whilst we were not part of Schengen we did have favourable terms those terms no longer apply and the delay on required checks has now passed and they’re being imposed.

Those that argue that we should be eligible for the same treatment because we used to be in the EU I are simplistically arguing that if you cancel you’re Netflix subscription you still be allowed to watch it because you used to be a member


We’re not in the EU therefore we are treat exactly the same as any other non EU country

---------- Post added at 09:41 ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 ----------



How can it be the EU’s fault when some member states have approved their use ??

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As already been stated by others, proof of funds checks have not occurred.

As for your last point. Easy, they’re playing political games, because a former member dared to leave their corrupted power hungry empire.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I didn’t say they had occurred i said they may now be required

If it’s the EU playing political games then why are all member states not in the same position ?

Some member states have approved their use
Some member states are undecided on if they will approve them

I’m not aware of any member states actively refusing them yet ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Like the next PM Liz Truss, I believe he's changed his mind since the Referendum.

---------- Post added at 10:23 ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 ----------

Not a good look for these countries. Something we need to tidy up now through negotiation.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Agreed.

Realistically, we need to have good relations with the EU member states to correct things like this. Tearing up the NI protocol when there exists Article 16 to invoke instead as part of the protocol will not help our caues.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think folk like you have drove him to change his mind and the hardened anti-Brexit conspiracy nut jobs, of the Alistair Campbell kind, totally unaccepting of the 2016 referendum result.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I’m not sure how this could be contained in the withdrawal agreement as negotiations such as this are performed at the level of the individual member state. These Negotiations are currently ongoing with the individual member states

But, there has been Covid & the war in Ukraine to contend with,so……

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I have made my position on here very clear many times, but once again:

I voted Remain. Mainly because I knew the extrication process would be a circus and six years on........here we are.

After the referendum result. I accepted and was happy to look forward to moving on, as constantly moaning, whinging, gloating etc is bad for the country, if we're going to go forward we have to go together and I find the joy that some people get for every hiccup and mistake we make whilst we're trying to move on quite disgusting.

My position now. Six years of watching the EU behave as they have done has made me believe that in our future we are better off without their management.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

For balance, there's been dubious behaviour by both sides, to the bolded part I sincerely hope you're right.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well said, cracking post.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Which ones specifically?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The bureaucratic red-tape ones, I’m guessing…

Just giving the non-specific generalised answer in advance. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

By my definition, the last sentence makes you a Brexiter. Mick may choose to disagree of course. And it's not a term of criticism, it's a term of classification.

Unfortunately for you Pierre, the gravity of trade will always tie us into the EU. Leaving the EU won't stop the debate on our optimum relationship with the bloc. As we've seen this weekend, few would agree we have the optimum relationship right now.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's the exact reason I voted remain and you can call it gloating but for me there is no joy in it, I just want the people who made promises held accountable when they're exposed as bs, you know like how a proper democracy works

Yeah the ones that protect people from all sorts of nastiness, like dumping raw sewage in the waterways, that's the brexit dividend, the wealthy and unscrupulous taking full advantage of their bought and paid for stooges