Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The words they keep using with regard to sensitive / private web traffic is 'WILL NOT' - not CANNOT. Reading through their system patents (the link is on here somewhere) it is clear that their system allows them to do far more than they currently openly admit.

You can guarantee that once they're up and running, function creep WILL happen. The interception won't be limited to http on port 80. The number of advertising channels will increase to include more lucrative products, porn, pharmacuticals etc.

You can bet your life that long term, if there is money to be made, phorm WILL explore EVERY avenue,regardless of privacy or legal issues.
Unless they are stopped NOW

Welcome Wild Oscar
Is Paul Clark MP the first Labour MP to give a meaningful, positive reply?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good work Wild Oscar. Thats a fantastic response especially with regard to speed of reply. Its been a full calendar month since I wrote to my MP and I have had zilch in response. Something I am most displeased about in all honesty. While my letter wasn't the best I have ever written (poor grammar in abundance, I am sure) the issues I raised should warrant the minimum of an acknowledgement of having received my letter.

Sadly I am still waiting for a response from Liberty but I have a vague recollection of someone on this thread recently saying that Liberty state that because of the large amount of correspondence they get that it may take up to 8 weeks to get a reply. Oh well only 4 weeks to go LOL

Road Runner, not sure if Paul Clark is the first Labour MP to respond but I will go as far as to say that my MP is Labour and didn't respond. Patricia Hewitt issue? Yes I know. Black helicopter time.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I, for one, have never been happier that my MP is a Conservative.
Not that I've heard back from him yet, but theyworkforyou.com shows him as responding to 'a very high' number of communications via writetothem.com - something like 84%.


Of course, I'm registered to vote in one constituency and living in another (university student)... that might just give me two possible avenues of approach anyway. May have to look into this. Just a shame that the Nottingham MP is labour and never rebels against the party line :(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I found a link to a site called Justice from the Taking Liberties website. I'm going to send them an email, including the information that EU Information Commissioner Viviane Reding gave regarding the human rights implication of Phorm.

I'll keep you posted.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No reply from my MP either, Bob Ainsworth (Lab).
I'm not into conspicacy theories but....I was starting to wonder. It's certainly the first labour MP i can remember giving a worthwhile reply.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Must be one of the rebels :D, i think someone in labour has been secretly keeping this hush hush it will all come out in the end i can see ;), might be some big phorm story this week too for some reason.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have had a reply from Amozon.

I would say Phorm are not in a position to use this data from Amazon..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Florence and I have now completed our exchange with Simon Watkin and Andrew Knight at the Home Office and this is what we have concluded from that. Please note that we have focussed solely on the application of The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA) to targeted online advertising.

Overall, what is, and always has been, the primary issue is for ISPs and their partners to assure themselves that they are complying with relevant legislation in providing and offering a targeted online advertising service and to be clear to the users what is being offered, the basis of the offer and how the service operates.

1. RIPA provides a statutory framework for regulating the conduct of public authorities which may interfere with individuals’ right to respect for their private and family life under Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights.

2. RIPA provides for an offence of unlawful interception which any person, absolutely anyone, is able to commit. It also provides for lawful interception of communications.

3. The Home Office (outside of its immigration functions) is not an investigatory body. It is the role of the police to investigate allegations of unlawful interception. The Home Office cannot make the police investigate people’s allegations.

4. It is the unlawful interception of data which is the offence under RIPA (unless that interception has lawful authority), not how the interceptor uses or intends to use that data.

5. To the extent that deep packet inspection amounts to interception of communications (as defined in RIPA), deep packet inspection can be lawful by virtue of section 3(3) of RIPA, for example to identify and give priority to packets of voice data, or to packets of streaming media and other legitimate traffic management issues.

6. For a prosecution against BT over the 2006 and 2007 trails to have a chance of success, then at least all of the following would have to be proved:
(a) That there had been conduct which amounted to interception of communications as defined in RIPA.
(b) That the data intercepted was not simply traffic data whose interception would be lawful by virtue of section 2(5) of RIPA.
(c) That there was no lawful authority to intercept the data as defined in section 3(3) of RIPA or any other lawful authority.

7. The Home Office’s note dated January 2008 considered the application of targeted online advertising services in relation only to open browsing, not to anything using HTTPS or requiring authentication.

8. Even where an ISP’s end user has opted-in to an advertising service, depending on how that service is offered a question may also arise as to whether the ISP and the targeted online advertising provider has reasonable grounds for believing the host or publisher of a web page consents to the interception for the purposes of section 3(1)(a) or 3(1)(b). It may be argued that section 3(1)(a) or 3(1) (b) is satisfied in such a case because the host or publisher who makes a web page readily available for download (that is, not using SSL or https) from a server impliedly consents to those pages being downloaded.

9. Targeted online advertising undertaken with the highest regard to the respect for the privacy of ISPs’ users and the protection of their personal data, and with the ISPs’ users consent, expressed appropriately, is a legitimate business activity.

10. An individual cannot consent to something they don’t know about and haven’t been told about or had the opportunity to know about.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Apologies for the knee-jerk but I had only limited time. I suppose we'd have to hope the goalie doesn't still save the penalty.

Look, I'm all for a more organised approach (it saves chasing down the wrong road for weeks) but let's not pin too many hopes on any single event and keep our options open eh?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here is my commentary based on my further entirely personal interpretation of the exchange with the Home Office. Before I start I should say I found Simon and Andrew very helpful and responsive, and keen to say as much as they reasonably could given the situation. In my view they have said all they can and need to say on these points, and we should now move the campaign on from them.

The commentary below sets out my initial thoughts. They are entirely my opinions, and others involved in the exchange may have differing views.

Points 1 and 2 confirm that RIPA applies to anyone, which could include ISPs and their suppliers.

Point 3 says that we should not be chasing the Home Office for enforcement of RIPA following the BT Trials in 2006 and 2007. I think it is the Attorney General we should be focusing on. We might want to write polite letters to her to ask why, when there is a widespread conviction that the law has been broken, no action appears to have been taken.

Lady Scotland of Asthal
20 Victoria Street
London SW1H 0NF

Point 4 undermines BT’s “it was only a technical trial” argument. It doesn’t matter what you do or intend to do with the data, it is the interception itself which is the offence under RIPA.

Point 5 was intended to cover the position of opted-out users of a Phorm ISP. Under RIPA it is not certain either way whether intercepting traffic to determine whether there is consent to intercept it is illegal. BT could argue that it is lawful because the interception is part of a traffic management process (determining whether or not to divert the traffic for Phorm processing). We could argue that operating a Phorm/Webwise service is a commercial decision of theirs and that without it the need for such traffic management would not arise. Any thoughts on this from Alexander would be useful. If Phorm goes ahead I expect this will be argued in Court sooner or later.

In my view, Point 6 says that the CPS has the basis for a case against BT under RIPA, but there will be other aspects of the situation which apply and will have to be argued.

Point 7 confirms that the Home Office has said nothing about the interception of secure browsing in their comments on RIPA. I do not think we need to take this further right now as I do not think there would be any question that the interception of secure browsing is illegal under several laws.

Point 8 says that it is not certain either way under RIPA whether website owners’ consent to interception of open web traffic can be taken as implied. The key phrase here is “it may be argued”. Another interesting point is that law distinguishes the inbound message from the outbound message (RIPA 3(1)(b) as opposed to 3(1)(a)). And other laws may also make the use of the intercepted data illegal. Again, any thoughts on this from Alexander would be useful. And again, if Phorm goes ahead I expect this will be argued in Court sooner or later.

Point 9 reaffirms that if there are adequate safeguards in place (informed opt-in, privacy) then targeted online advertising is a legitimate activity for an ISP under RIPA. We can argue this case on many levels: from a legal perspective is opt-in really informed and are privacy safeguards sufficient? And which other laws may apply? From a practical perspective is the equipment used safe from criminals? From a political perspective, should ISPs be allowed to operate this kind of service at all?

Point 10 emphasises that the decision to opt in must be informed. We should keep track of the trial and any other proposed Phorm activity: if the fact that the service involves the interception, reading and processing of almost all the user’s web traffic is not made as clear as the purported benefits, then in my opinion there would be a case that any subsequent interceptions would be illegal under RIPA.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"5. Licence for website access

Amazon.co.uk grants you a limited licence to access and make personal use of this website, but not to download (other than page caching) or modify it, or any portion of it, except with express written consent of Amazon.co.uk. This licence does not include any resale or commercial use of this website or its contents; any collection and use of any product listings, descriptions, or prices; any derivative use of this website or its contents; any downloading or copying of account information for the benefit of another merchant; or any use of data mining, robots, or similar data gathering and extraction tools.

This website or any portion of this website may not be reproduced, duplicated, copied, sold, resold, visited, or otherwise exploited for any commercial purpose without our express written consent."



I don't think that “it may be argued� that amazon give any consent for interception.
Taken across the whole WWW this would seem to be a major stumbling block for phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Would it be at all possible to monitor in any way, the Layer 7 interception?
I was wondering if,when the BT trials start, whether it would be beneficial for a few technically knowledgeable participants to be able to log just what happens and how. It could help confirm just what BT & Phorm will be doing.

Colin

As a new forum member, I have no concerns with some of the more informed members communicating between themselves regarding Phorm and the responses.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed, but the main issue here may not be the interception but the use of the data. I actually used the Amazon quote above in my correspondence with the Home Office. I personally think Amazon would have a case to take legal action under RIPA, but they might not choose a criminal prosecution under RIPA as their first option as they will have so many other avenues.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think Amazon definitely have the Phorm system covered in ther T&C's, I've emboldened the part of the statement which I feel is the real ball buster for Webwise.

---------- Post added at 18:28 ---------- Previous post was at 18:26 ----------

Am I allowed to plagarise that part of Amazon's T&C's for that of my own website? ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Already email Amazon to get them into the battle for our right to not be phormed....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I build websites, (mainly for charitable organisations and others involved in working with disabled persons), and when I'm asked about T&Cs I point all my clients to Amazon's site to use as a guide. Simple reason: because they have been written by a qualified lawyer/solicitor and are utterly brilliant.

I applaud Florence for using Amazon's site as a perfect example with respect to how to tell Phorm/Webwise to keep off.

"This website or any portion of this website may not be reproduced, duplicated, copied, sold, resold, visited, or otherwise exploited for any commercial purpose without our express written consent."

roadrunner69: You've picked out exactly the one part of Amazon's T&Cs I advise all my clients to include, good call. :)

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Also the www.bbc.co.uk

4. All copyright, trade marks, design rights, patents and other intellectual property rights (registered and unregistered) in and on bbc.co.uk and all content (including all applications) located on the site shall remain vested in the BBC or its licensors (which includes other users). You may not copy, reproduce, republish, disassemble, decompile, reverse engineer, download, post, broadcast, transmit, make available to the public, or otherwise use bbc.co.uk content in any way except for your own personal, non-commercial use. You also agree not to adapt, alter or create a derivative work from any bbc.co.uk content except for your own personal, non-commercial use. Any other use of bbc.co.uk content requires the prior written permission of the BBC.

---------- Post added at 18:42 ---------- Previous post was at 18:40 ----------

Also www.sky.com

4. Intellectual Property
4.1 All copyright, trade marks and all other intellectual property rights in all material or content supplied as part of the Sky Site shall remain at all times vested in Us or Our licensors. You are permitted to use this material or content only as expressly authorised in writing by Us or Our licensors. You will not, and You will not assist or facilitate any third party to, copy, reproduce, transmit, distribute, frame, commercially exploit or create derivative works of such material or content.



how big can this list get. are we barking up a tree with no CAT ????

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So on a legal side if a customer of VM was phormed (with or without informed consent) visited those sites and Phorm categorised the page logged and profiled the customer. This is where Pandora’s Box comes in as the person with or without Knowledge has just broken the rule on Amazon and now opened themselves up for possible prosecution.

I think I am becoming more legal minded in my thinking I need help..

Maybe Alexander could tell me if I am right or wrong the person that would be prosecuted would be the customer not the Phorm management in the case like Amazon?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

any one got a copy of Blackstone's police manuals out there was reading last years and on one of the questions to do with RIPA offences

the answer of when the offence was committed by a person who was intending to access information covered by this law was that he committed the offence as soon as he switched on the computer that would enable him to do so

was wondering if this years was the same and if it could be of help in the reporting of this to the police whom the Home office say are suposed to be the ones to investigate such matters

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:cleader::clap::cleader:
Great work, Portly_Giraffe and Florence!
Many thanks for your time and effort.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

lol sky might be the one to instigate something if virgin switch it on

ah well got me laughing

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

this help

blackstonespolice

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

as i have been to school today i went and had a word about this phorm-webwise business as id already had a word with some of the parents about this issue to my astonishment the headmistress and deputy head and there ict teacher was unaware of this phorm-webwise business i explained about the schools data protection approach as it violates the schools data protection forms they hand out each year to parents and was redirected to the district data protection for schools

at this moment will get intouch with them tommorow to see where my data protection rights stand and where my childrens data protection rights stand within the school when they use there computers to go on the internet within school time as we are handed leaflets to go on net after school for education perposes

ebay t&cs are rather interesting

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policie...agreement.html

part 1

distribute viruses or any other technologies that may harm eBay, or the interests or property of eBay users;

copy, modify, or distribute eBay's copyrighted works or trade marks, or other content from the Site, without our express consent; or

harvest or otherwise collect information about users, including email addresses, without their express consent.

part 2 is very interesting indead

Access and interference
The Site contains robot exclusion headers. Much of the information on the Site is updated on a real-time basis and is proprietary or is licensed to eBay by our users or third parties. You agree that you will not use any robot, spider, scraper or other automated means to access the Site for any purpose without our express written permission.

Additionally, you agree that you will not:

take any action that imposes or may impose (in our sole discretion) an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure;

copy, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, or publicly display any content (except for your information) from the Site without the prior expressed written permission of eBay and the appropriate third party, as applicable;

interfere or attempt to interfere with the proper working of the Site or any activities conducted on the Site; or

bypass our robot exclusion headers or other measures we may use to prevent or restrict access to the Site.

? has anyone started this kitty off for donations to allexander
as most of time i like my freebies on net and as this is worth the donation i have to give for someone to fight this its worth it totally

Great work, Portly_Giraffe and Florence!
Many thanks for your time and effort.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Omg :shocked:
related to this invation of privacy and data export.....under Jacqui Smith OC ,no wonder she ignored the Phorm questions.

perhaps a seperate set of questions to the lords on this matter.....

its hard enough getting access yourself, if you were to send a DPA request for any footage of you they might have, and the US gets all this for free .....
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...-allows-spy-uk
"
Secret pact allows the US to spy on UK motorists

Big Buddy is watching y'all

By Egan Orion: Monday, 21 April 2008, 4:16 PM


THE UK Home Secretary secretively signed a "special certificate" last year that gives foreign security agencies real-time access to traffic camera images and related data monitoring British motorists on highways throughout the UK.

Opposition politicians and civil liberties advocates yesterday accused Gordon Brown's government of attempting to hide from Parliament its covert plans to facilitate international surveillance of UK citizens in violation of privacy laws.

Under the authorisation signed last July 4 by Jacqui Smith, video feeds and still images captured from roadside TV cameras, along with personal data derived from them, can be transmitted out of the UK to countries such as the US, that are outside the European Economic Area
......
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Since someone mentioned the Police. Looks pretty much the same as the others, i.e. written consent only.

http://www.met.police.uk/about/webinfo.htm

I wonder what these chappies would feel about forged cookies being dumped on our PCs in their name. ;)

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No Problem :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

it would if i had the £68 to subscribe ;) will try and get over my friends who has this years some time this week

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OMG this is a bigger pandora's box than phorm I think we will be kissing bye to labour on may 1st..

Wonder if we can get a second working paty to focus on this leaving the main party to stay on focus with Phorm just incase it is leaked now to split our attention..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well, hot on the heels of my previous post today .. I also used writetothem.com to send a message (similar to the Paul Clark one) to my MEP's .. one reply already .. from Nigel Farage (UKIP)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm asking a BT manager if they think I should stop visiting Amazon, Sky and BBC sites once Webwise is live. I'll let you know what the reply is!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Obviously a man who is looking to grind other axes:erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'd be careful of getting too involved with Mr Farage - as you can see from his reply, his concern may not really be privacy, his concern is more likely to be anything that shows EU in a bad light. That is a separate issue.

Fringe political parties do have a record of using ANY issue to further their own interests - I would recommend supping with a very long spoon indeed if you go down that road.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's probably a safe bet that BT will exclude any site from the trial that is big enough and may be inclined to sue. They must be pretty nervous about it as it is.;)

Where would the BBC site stand if it's users in the UK were profiled for the purposes of advertising?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree with r jones and would stick to the big 3 in politics at least if you really want it heard.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Isn't BBC meant to be a signed up member of OIX anyway?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Supposedly, but they can't serve ads to UK users. I don't know where they stand if their content is used to contribute to a profile to target ads on other sites.

Suppose someone uses the BBC site a lot. Their profile used to target ads on other sites would be largely based on interception of BBC content. This cannot be used for advertising purposes in the UK.

It would be interesting to know if the BBC has any arrangement to be excluded (i.e. no profiling of visits to the BBC site).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't worry folks .. I know exactly what you mean!
Meanwhile lets see what the other MEP's come up with .. another 5 or so of them I think!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting points there and not sure what their stance would be.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The BBC already serve ads to me here in the UK. The reason is that, at work, our external web routing exits in Holland. When I go to the BBC site, it thinks I'm a Dutch bloke and so sends me ads on their site. It's very annoying.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ha, wheras for me even though I am in the US, the Beeb thinks I am in the UK due to our internal data highway routing such traffic to the UK point of presence so I get no adverts and I can use iPlayer.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a quick thought as I pass through this evening...

Doesn't the BBC's Charter say something about the BBC not showing adverts? Not that that has stopped them from plugging Eastenders (*hurl*) on their radio stations.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BBC Enterprises are allowed to show adverts to non-licence payers as a means of bolstering funding - for this purpose they assume that all UK-resident websurfers are licencepayers and all non-UK surfers are not.
Sadly, I think the latest incarnation of the BBC Charter allows advertising to be pushed at all non-licence payers (they justified it as "helping to keep UK licence payers fees down") and given that they've allowed this mission-creep, they're also likely to be okay with profiling of UK users for the purposes of targeted advertising on sites visited other than www.bbc.co.uk

My personal opinion: Roll-on all-digital TV, when they can do-away with the licence fee and charge those people who actually watch BBC (I'm one) by means of direct subscription, hence continuing the brilliant tradition of advertisment-free, high-quality television in this country.

Come to think of it - I think this is Kent Ertugrul's biggest miscalculation in the whole sorry Phorm affair: He assumed that UK citizens are, in consumer terms, the same as US citizens. What he failed to realise is that, unlike our US cousins, we have a great tradition of high-quality, advertisment-free media content which is funded effectively by subscription (OK - licence fee, but hopefully subscription in the future), This contradicts his business' premise that content services cannot survive without advertising (and therefore Phorm is a necessary evil), so he choses to ignore this inconvenient example of how good the internet could be.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yep, Brits don't like ads. This is neatly illustrated by the ad-break in popular TV programs that correspond with a jump in the demand for electricity as millions of kettles get switched on. Note to advertisers...if people are making a cuppa, who is watching the ads?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Actually I don't believe they are compliant with DPA as DPA clearly refers to making operations on data as a definition of processing. The very act of making operations via DPI to detect what the data is (opt in cookie, opt out cookie, is the page blacklisted etc etc etc > profiler > channel server) these are -all- operations so I still firmly believe the system with it's current model breaches DPA.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 22:29 ---------- Previous post was at 22:06 ----------

I raised the issue of customer complicity some time ago now in the early days of the scandal. Yes I believe still that if a customer "Opts In" and then initiates a connection to a web site with explicit terms denying consent to intercept, process etc. then there is a serious concern that they could be seen as complicit and could face criminal action under RIPA.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting article in the Washington Post. Clearly this is also controversial in the US. Also clearly NebuAd has first mover advantage in the US (contrary to the views of 'Carol and Son') which is maybe the real reason Phorm jumped to the UK.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040304052.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In the interests of spreading the word I sought advice from a couple of friends and then advised Rainbow Network, Pinknews.co.uk and Stonewall about Phorm. Got a reply today from the editor of Pinknews who says he will be looking into it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Seeing the Cap'ns link to his footage of the London meeting has reminded me. Has there been any news on the pro version, promised by 80/20, being released?

:welcome: vicz

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I checked 80/20 Thinking's site last night and didn't see any news on it.

I will email Simon later and see if he can shed any light on it.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Indeed Florence.

Well, I got a reply from Patricia Hewitt today. It must be difficult being an MP and on the Board of BT (or it might not be, given the renumeration for it?!)

Anyway, she did not have to reply as I am not in her constituency, but unfortunately when she "Checked the position with BT" they just gave her the standard lines to trip out to me:

1. Contrary to what we all believe, no personal data involved in the secret trial interceptions, no customers identified, no data kept and no law broken (we disagree I think!)

2. The extensive customer research where more than half want phorm... (or something like that based on the questions that were asked by BT's market research which we all know will have been using questions that did not include words like "ISP spy on you", "Phorm Adware/Spyware/Rootkit stealth technology" etc!

Congrats Alexander on the response from the Earl Of Northesk. We still wait to see the answer to his written question eh? Wonder if they government will get around to answering that before he gets back here.

On the question of public vs private forum... please do keep updating this place here. It's good to see the size of the opposition to the Phorm system proposed. If too much of it goes into a private forum we might lose some momentum.

All the best to Alexander for the BBC Click recording :)

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK I have emailed Simon about the video, hopefully have some news about it when I get back from London tomorrow night.

With regards the "private forum". Please let me reiterate it was never my intention to suggest that the Phorm debate be sandboxed. I was merely referring to a focused thread/discussion on questions we might like the Earl of Northesk to direct at the Home Office and Government in general. This thread is very busy and it would be easy to miss input on the questions being put together.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This delay has got me wondering how long it can take to chop the video into manageable chunks and post it online...

Thanks to Mark for reminding me - I got an e-mail yesterday saying the bandwidth used has hit 80% (it's now 83% or 41.3Gb: the total files size is 135 Mb so that's a lot of downloads - 796 in total) so please link to the tobymeres.net site (340 visits so far) which has better bandwidth.

Wishing you success for tomorrow, Alexander.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good luck tomorrow in London we are all here supporting you in this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

good luck tommorow Alexander

and have a safe journey

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What his her opinion? We know what BT have to say and she should not just take their word for it over someone else's (I presume you gave her the facts).

On the matter of MP's replying, mine replied quite quickly (see posts #2550 & #2554 )and for the record he's Labour.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you watch the third bourne supremacy film,they have a scene where a US security firm are using the cameras in london ,just like what's in that article .

Unbelievable to think that the film was showing something which is now possible.

---------- Post added at 05:51 ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 ----------


High quality tv, that made me chuckle :angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I emailed 80/20 24 hours after the meeting, via their Contact Us link, to ask about the promised video. No reply I'm afraid.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good luck for the click interview Alexander. Go get 'em.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This ones easy to get around...

BT drone: "No personal information was processed..."

Questioner: "So, you didn't remove personal information?"

BT drone: "Yes, we did"

Questioner: "Then you processed it"

They can't have it both ways ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BBC : Security firms scrutinise Phorm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7359024.stm

"Phorm have hinted that most ISP's will choose an opt-out solution based on a cookie," he said. "We have expressed our concern that's not informed consent and most likely will meet our detection criteria."

:)

hehe, they have the F-Secure on Phorm blog linked as well.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes seems like they have no intentions of changing the method of delivery which will mean many will not even know it is on their system plus many minors could be tricked onto the system without consent.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7359024.stm

A story on security firm responses to Phorm. Interesting in the light of my question to BT

"What will happen to browsing (and the Phorm business model) when browsers like Firefox (and security software vendors) start to look at layer 7 redirection and treat it as suspicious activity? and their reply - "It is not clear to me that they will do that."

Well maybe it is clearer now.

The BBC pages on this are looking quite organised, with very good links, a couple of video links to their TV reports including interview with Emma Sanderson about the secret illegal trials from BT, and provides a good first stopping pointfor someone wanting to learn about Phorm/Webwise from scratch. If this is the basic template design of the pages for their current Phorm stories, it will be helpful.

The article ends with some Kent spin.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Posted to the iii website with the bbc link. I won't be around much today. Got a job interview to prepare for. Keep up the good fight!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you were wrong.. I actually meant BT is..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No problem - I can definitely agree with that. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is ILLEGAL!!!

When virgin finally do make this PhormeWare go public, Im out and taking ALL 3 of my services and they can go jump!

That is a total of £1,176 a year Virgin will be losing out on, and this is just from me!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They'll probably be happy to let you go

I'm sure they have already worked out how many users deploying this system will cost them and have factored that against the profits they will be getting from their cut in Phorm's advertising revenue.

Say that Phorm will net them about £20,000,000.00 per year - @ £15.00 per month they can easily afford to lose 100,000 customers before the alarm bells start ringing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

...and it's that kind of contempt for customers that really sticks in my craw and spurs me on to looking for alternatives.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi PhormUKPRteam.

How are you today?

Any idea when the BT trials will start? (again)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That would be true but how many of those customers are only paying £15.00 per month for their Virgin Media services? I currently pay about £60 per month. Some people pay significantly more. I do agree with your general principle, though, and believe that it will come down to the financial equation of how much they stand to gain by implementing Phorm and how much revenue they will lose via churn of unhappy customers.

Sadly, as things stand right now, I am beginning to doubt their line that they are keeping it under review and that if it begins to damage their brand they will pull out. I already think this Phorm malarkey HAS tarnished their brand image yet they still remain cagey.

Time to leave. Be back this evening or tomorrow.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'd be surprised if you got an answer other than, "OK thanks"
It seems their rules of engagement have been changed and they are being kept on a short leash after a few calamitous forays on to "teh interwebz":D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

At present I have ADSL and Cable but will gladly switch of the cable modem today even though it is paid till next month if Phorm went live today.

I am so against this type of spying plus do not trust the managment lepords don't change their spots just their hunting habits when things get lean....

I am off to amend my websites to include the ban for phorm to access the pages or gather any data,information,image from them..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Lmfao Paul i am not a heavy user and my VM monthly bill is around the £70 pound mark as i would imagine a hell of a lot of people on here are. If VM can afford to lose 25-35,000 of us then good luck to them and hope they and phorm have a happy life. I suspect that this system will lose them a lot more then 35,000 not as many as 100,000 but enough that phorm is not going to make them a profit and the damage done to the VM brand will be a lot higher then simple financial terms. Spin it how you want this is a whole new phorm of business suicide and only the terminally stupid in business would even contemplate having anything to do with it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So they're still claiming the opt out option when the ICO has stated that it has to be opt in.

The silence from Virgin on this whole affair isn't good.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you consider the lowest package for BB and phone is £20 a month every 3 ppl on this package will = 4 at the £15.00 a month thye can afford to lose if higher package customers leave the total rises quicker..

It will not be the first time the Cable bean counters got it wrong and almost brought the company to its knees this time they might just succeed with greed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Me too

I already have moved to an ISP who treats me like a valued customer rather than a f*cking Lab Rat!

Through my work I am often asked to recommend an ISP to clients and there's no way I would consider signing anyone up to a VM, BTR or Carphone Whorehouse service ever again (that'll lose them at least 3 new customers per month)!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I must get my sites done too, all this stuff to do this week... arghhhhh :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thing is the system's dead on the ground as an opt-in...

It would be legal as an opt-out if they wrote targetted advertising into the service contract for new customers - a sort of "love me, love my dog" clause.

Then they could gradually lose their current customer base...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The problem is, for so long these ISP's have concentrated on customer numbers and market share. The Holy Grail. They cut everything to the bone to achieve this.

The theory goes that when you have a large enough market share, you can add value.

So far, so good. You can add value by :-

(a) Increasing the quality of your service, charging a bit more for it and keeping your customers happy. Add the odd new service now and again. This is a sound, sustainable approach.

OR

(b) Go for a quick fleece and hope nobody notices.

I know what's most attractive to VM.

---------- Post added at 11:46 ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 ----------

They couldn't just bury this in the T&C's even for new customers. It has to be informed consent to opt-in.

They have to acknowledge that burying it in T&C's does not constitute 'informed' because not everyone reads the T&C's.

This was demonstrated by a well known PR team admitting not reading the Wiki T&C's, which will come back to haunt them one day in court.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Paul,

If you are wishing to enter into hypothetical earnings then it would be better to pro-rata, for customer base size, on the projected (read possible hypothetically :-) ) 2010 income for B.T.

The projected income would be around a quarter of your number and churn would be exceptionally painful for VM compared to BT. For me it would be one out, all out and that is in excess of £1K per annum. By the time that the Virgin Media brand is considered synonymous with a spy company I suspect that the leavers will so far outweigh any income that Phorm will be dropped and a campaign launched to encourage returners to a spy free company.

These battles have only just begun and if implemented there will be new targets. The system needs paying advertisers and if as they appear each one is inundated with thousands of e-mails deploring their involvement with spyware and employing the reverse logic of "I now will boycott your company, totally", Phorm will be starved of the oxygen it needs to survive. It will not be long before they will be become aligned with Corporate financial suicide.

Virgin Media are IMO showing the least intelligence in this Phorm fiasco. They have high penetration in areas where the network is available. It is not feasible to increase network size due to cost factors therefore must gain income from value adding. Exploitation is not value adding and if exploitation leads to customer loss then in a limited sized network it is corporate foolishness in the extreme.

VM and its predecessors have been to the brink of the financial abyss before and I have a feeling of deja vue.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah you're right, it would need to be in the same format as a Software EULA. When signing up to the service it will require action on the customer's part when given the choice of accepting the service with targetted advertising:
I Agree / I don't Agree.
Of course if you check the latter you get dumped out of the sign up process!

---------- Post added at 12:22 ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 ----------

Excelent point!

I do keep underestimating just how much pressure the average Internet "consumer" can exert and how fragile online advertising can be when confronted by determined opposition - food for thought indeed! :D

When compared to BT, VM is indeed on shaky ground I would imagine for them deployment will create a make or break situation - this is obviously greed driven and could go very wrong!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

All this talk of cookies helps obfuscate the debate here. There is only one acceptable opt out, something that Phorm never mentioned until last Tuesday night: a network based opt-out which stops the customers' data going anywhere near Phorm's systems.

The cookie thing is irrelevant if your data is still being logged/mirrored/recorded by the Phorm system.

Where the BBC technology article says "the other two [ISPs] will automatically enrol anyone that does not explicitly ask to be excluded." that is an interesting interpretation of "users will not be forced to use the system" which VM have twice said to me.

Time to demand clarification.

Noticed this using siteadvisor
 

Guys

Now where did phorm get their name from ?


http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/pho..._type=IEPlugin

Was checking site advisor and it seems that www.phorm.com has a link to.

phninstall.zip

URL of the download publisher: http://phorm.com/phormation.php
URL of the download: ftp://ftp.holotech.net/phorm/phninstall.zip

http://phorm.com/phormation.php doesn't exist anymore.


But how Phunny they name the company after

http://freshmeat.net/projects/phormation/


Anyhow get a copy of siteadvisor for free, its pretty good.

it provides far more protection than webwise could offer.


www.siteadavisor.com

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You might want to go back, use the edit feature, and try to find some other words to express your distaste?

Only a suggestion, it's up to you, but I would be grateful if you would at least consider removing my quote from your post.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Kindly remove YOUR quote from MY post.

Like you *really* care about how Phorm's PR team is anyway

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

£20m actually sounds like a pretty small profit for VM from phorm.

To put it in perspective, they could make the same money by putting up everybody's broadband bill by just 50p a month.

When you consider how many customers this has the potential to lose them, how risky it is legally, how much it'll cost to install, power, cool and maintain all of the extra equipment, the extra support calls it will produce and the fact that the income numbers are only estimates I'm amazed that they're even considering deploying this system.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If VM would dare to raise it's head above the parapet there is a relatively simple question re: the supposed anti-phishing protection given by Webwise....

On a leaflet with the bill I received today is a long speil about PCguard which for L and XL packages is offered with "anti-Phishing". The extras in PCguard "Total" is only free for the higher BB packages and it rather begs the question of why exploit our clicks for profit and then trumpet the virtues of something already covered in a free offering for many\most customers?.

How ironic that the product they give away extolls and covers many virtues of safe surfing whilst they are in the process of considering implementing a click intercept back door which makes previous on computer attempts look like amateur night.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is this group moderated please? I don't think this sort of language helps the cause especially if we are trying to complain about breaches of the law while using the internet.

Thanks for the prompt action.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed. It was out of order and I for one do not want to be associated with such comments.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

(Edited due to post being removed - cheers mods!)

Can i just say how much the work of Alexander et all is appreciated here too. It's just a shame that certain people have to resort to 'Vulgar' language etc when almost every post in this entire (mega) thread has been well-natured, and the debate has been at times heated, but almost always civil!

Keep up the good work chaps and chapesses - 'THANK YOU PLEASE'

;):D:D

DJT

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Neither do I nor the site admins. The person responsible for those offensive comments has now been permanently banned. Thanks to the admins for their swift action. A warning had been posted previously.

I'm not a mod here but I am elsewhere and will report anything I feel is inappropriate. Please can we keep posts at the very least civil? Venting offensive bile and deliberately obtuse comments achieves nothing positive and reflects badly on everyone here.

This topic does and will generate emotional responses. We get our message across better if we keep to professional language rather than profane.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That was impressively quick.

Having worked with some of the virulence genes from plague, and having spent the last 6 months carrying out a research project and writing a dissertation on one of its' close cousins, I can safely say that I wouldn't really wish it on anybody. Even Phorm.
There are legal ways of resolving this situation without having to resort to namecalling and hoping for pinpoint biological warfare strikes.

Speaking of which, still waiting for a response from my MP.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

New from The Register

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04...s_with_nebuad/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

With regard to the "Security firms scrutinise Phorm" BBC article I shouldn't take the wording too literally, especially things like;
I don't know who wrote that particular article, when or where they got their information and how well they understand the situation but what I can say is that, whether any specifics are correct or not, to the laymen that article puts Phorm in a bad light - which is where they deserve to be :D

---------- Post added at 13:40 ---------- Previous post was at 13:37 ----------

Now that's a much more informed article.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hey all,

Thank for this informative and interesting thread. On my search through the vast outback that is the internet, I stumbled upon this site, amounsgt others whilst searching for Phorm related information.

As you can imagine, I have been reading for a while now but have only just found a reason to contribute to the discussion.

My question revolves around the security policy I have for computers on my LAN. Simply put, the machines on my LAN all run Firefox or Opera and are setup to remove cookies and personal data when the browser is closed. This is great for me and has proved invaluable for people who use my LAN as it means that they are certain that any user credentials that are entered during a browsing session are removed from the machine when the browser is closed.

However, it would seem that this would mean that the phorm cookies which manage opt-in/opt-out preferences will be deleted each time the browser closes as well - no doubt making my vulnerable to their snooping or worse, forcing me to opt-in/opt-out each time I start a new browser session.

Does anybody have any thoughts on this?

Sounds like it could be a pain for someone like myself. Not that I would stay with an ISP using Phorm for long once I realised what was happening ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Johnny, welcome to CF and to the thread.

There was a public meeting held last Tuesday to discuss Phorm and its various issues. Dr Richard Clayton in particular spoke on cookies and how the Phorm system uses them. Alexander Hanff also spoke excellently at the meeting. There's unedited footage from the meeting here which may well answer your question. If memory serves the deletion of cookies is discussed.

IMHO there is only one acceptable type of opt out - one that ensures my data goes nowhere near Phorm's systems.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good question. My experience as a BT customer is that my ISP have said they are "working on a cookie-free solution". (ie they haven't got one YET)

At present they seem to be running with a cookie-based opt-OUT solution for their forthcoming trials. What they have NOT made clear, is whether all the customer's web traffic will nevertheless suffer redirection anyway, if there is an opt-out cookie or if there is NO cookie. As they have indicated (apparently) that blocking the Phorm/Webwise related IP's and domains will break browsing, it does look at the moment as if intercepting and redirection is going to be universal, (without informed consent) but that you won't be getting a Phorm ID if you are opted out or merely not opted-in.

It's still a rather fuzzy area in terms of what they are planning, and I think they are remaining vague deliberately in the hope that what they have already designed is legal. If it isn't, then they have to go back to the drawing board. So they are obfuscating. I personally don't even think BT feel confident any more whether their proposed trials are legal, otherwise they would have started them already. They are a month late at least.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"Peter Smith negotiated WOW!'s contract with NebuAd, but he said that these negotiations carried on for months and that NebuAd's practices may have changed since the two companies first spoke."

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that one of the prime concerns when Phorm first appeared inviting all and sundry to inspect their code which could easily be replaced with something completely different on the first patch / update! And so here we have a similar system running live where whatever was hammered out during lengthy negotiations prior to deployment suddenly doesn't mean Jack any more!

Is that scary or am I just reading to much into it...

:rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

for those of us who are BT customers, the parallels are eerily close. almost EVERY element of that story has AREADY happened in the BT/Phorm relationship. secret implementation - cookies dropped and browser hijacking - ignorance by support - denials by ISP staff - admission by ISP staff - excuses and buck passing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So it would appear that adding them to my hosts file, which I get from here http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm and which in turn ensures that I do not see the majority of the nonsense on the internet these days, will give me connection issues. Oh boy, this is just silly :(

Also, thanks for the links to the vids CaptJamieHunter, will have a watch of them when I get home.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well I would recommend you specifically list the things you are adding to your HOSTS file, and formally ask your ISP what the result will be in each of these 3 scenarios:

a - you are opted IN to Webwise/Phorm
b - you are opted OUT of Webwise/Phorm with an opted-out cookie
c - you have simply blocked all Webwise/Phorm cookies and therefore don't have any of their cookies and have not either given or witheld informed consent for redirection.

Ask them for the effect on your browsing experience in each case with your list of HOSTS blocks in place.

They ought to be able to tell you, and if they can't it's significant. I'd be delighted to see their reply.