Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Which proves what? You are getting desperate now, Andrew!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It proves nothing of the sort. Brexit isn’t a result on lies, remember there was LIES on both sides of the fence, both weighted to gain extra votes, so each other’s lies cancelling each other’s out. If here had been just the one Democratic exercise, the Brexit vote itself, you could have a valid point. However, several Democratic exercises later, the last, 3 years ago, giving the party that said it would get Brexit done, largest majority in a long time. None of the Anti-Brexit MPs who left Tory/Labour party prior to GE in 2019, kept their seats. Liberal Democrats who said they’d reverse Brexit, lost their leader, if the country really really wanted to stop Brexit, why didn’t every Liberal Democrat candidate, in most seats win?

We need to stop repeating the “lies” tropes. Brexit vote was legitimate.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Been having a look at my posting history and I've been pretty consistent throughout about holding people accountable for what they've said and why I think it's so important to do so

That's the question right there for me, do we want future elections fought like that one?


Plus there is this one from mid 2012 which surprised me so much I thought I'd share, didn't think I was still a kipper back then tbh and iirc it's after call me dave gave his guarantee for the referendum :shocked:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/sta...06914266398725

Here's Vote Leave saying a divorce bill of this magnitude is "project fear".

https://twitter.com/i/status/999258109506916352

What don't you get here?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But that was money we owed. Have you forgotten that £100m+ that remainers said we would end up paying?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Old Boy, it would be lovely if you could follow ianch99 by supplying links to back-up your assertions.

---------- Post added at 19:34 ---------- Previous post was at 19:23 ----------

Which rules from Brussels should we stop following? How much will ending such rules compensate for the 4%+ in GDP we've lost from not being part of the EU?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

BREAKING: Labour Party vow to not bring UK back in to EU or Single Market, if they win back power in 2024.

https://news.sky.com/story/make-brex...blems-12645809

That will put the cat amongst the Remainiac pigeons.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

This looks like Project Fear on steroids! Fortunately for my heart it's paywalled.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...is-bankruptcy/

---------- Post added at 20:03 ---------- Previous post was at 19:58 ----------

Not sure employing lots of bureaucrats to certify your EU exports, therefore making them less competitive, ticks the box on reducing the GDP decline. I prescribe more Jeremy Warner. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Labour doesn't want to lose the next election it seems.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Is that the policy of the whole Labour party, or just one person who on a temporary basis is supposedly in charge of the party?
Meaningless gesture.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The time is not ripe to campaign for a referendum to join the EU Single Market. This is sensible step.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I would rephrase that as, Labour want to win the next election.

The former implies something else.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Pure deflection. I am pointing out one of the pure unadulterated lies made during the campaign. Let's focus on what was promised and what is reality.

You aim to conjure up a childish name calling game when, in all seriousness, this is the fate of the country we are talking about. You can call names in the playground or debate how we mitigate the devastating effects of this catastrophic decision.

---------- Post added at 23:05 ---------- Previous post was at 23:04 ----------

Again pure deflection. We have reality and we have OB's version ...

---------- Post added at 23:06 ---------- Previous post was at 23:05 ----------

Said like a true follower. You know those who frequently "say it was all sovereignty and I'd pay any price" are those who can well afford to do so.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

In the medium term, British business will sort it out by getting us back into the Single Market. In the longer term, they'll sort it out by getting us back in the EU where we can once be leading Europe and putting Germany and France back in their place. Just imagine the positive influence we could have had on the EU countries in supporting Ukraine if we'd still been a member! No wonder Russia is not keen on the EU.

Anyone who voted for Johnson should have known what to expect, but I appreciate the choice on the Labour side was not great at the time.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Dream on.

If we were to rejoin the EU (and that’s a mighty big if) we wouldn’t be leading anything. A country that looks like it doesn’t know what it wants is not well placed to tell others what to do.

The leadership role you seek for the UK can now only be found in a determined effort to show the world that we know what we’re doing right now and are willing and able to make a success of it. Ongoing remainer messianic fantasies about the UK saving the EU only make that task harder.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Everyone probably has different definitions for medium and long term so it's probably helpful if I share mine:

Medium term: 15 years

Long term: 35 years

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The EU know that the UK is trouble, it would be an act of insanity to welcome us back into the club

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You should take Maggy's advice and drop the playground insults. You should also drop the "And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!"* excuse for Brexit. The law of [Trade] Gravity meant, and still means, that there will never be an economic upside in the next decade+.


a homage to my misspent TV watching youth :)

---------- Post added at 09:56 ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 ----------

Spot on. They wouldn't touch the UK with a bargepole for a number of reasons not least while we have an electoral system that can vote in a Government that can drive through such lunatic policies.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not today or tomorrow. But in 35 years' time they just might.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You cannot make a success of such abject failure unless you are in the cult of the true believers. Mitigation & damage limitation are the only realistic hopes. Just "believing" ain't going to cut it.

You can forget the UK re-joining the EU or Single Market in the next decade+. Too many bridges have been burned and our international credibility is shot at the moment.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Agreed the EU hate democracy

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Barring any huge technological leaps, the trade law of gravity will always exist. It's managed to exist even with the advent of the Internet and the fall of the Iron Curtain.

The very fact that trade-weighted sterling fell sharply after the EU referendum in 2016 and, despite recovering from its trough later that year, remains 8% below the levels before the vote in June 2016 speaks to the trade law of gravity.

Except for the fact that Farage successfully become an MEP and not an MP as our electoral system favours a duopoly - once upon a time, Liberals and Conservatives, now Labour and Conservatives.

Our international credibility is patchy - weaker in terms of our relationship with our near neighbours and largest trading bloc but stronger with regard to our efforts in Ukraine and parts of the Commonwealth.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And the EU hated him for that.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The point remains that the so-called undemocratic EU allowed him to be elected whilst the UK's system didn't.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

genuine question.

isn't or wasn't that the point of the veto? we also for example didn't join the Euro. (i dont think that was veto though)

I guess what im asking is, did we have the power to be able to not implement rules set by Brussels and choose blindly to follow them by inept governments of the time?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

again, genuine question, It strikes me had we acted a bit more 'french' in our dealings with Brussels we may have been able to achieve/get more?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think this is where we will differ, i believe that the country is able to pivot and change its thinking as required.

I think our time in the EU perhaps could have gained us even better results (subjective) had our own political parties not been so lacklustre in their dealings with Brussels

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Good discussion peeps.

Talking of Lady T. Who remembers this?
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...b0d033a5757f2e

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So, this to me reads that our inaction led the EU to be what it is today? The question begs is to why were we not more forceful in our attempts to shape its future state

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You're right, we're partially responsible. But, why didn't we do all that we could of done ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

From what a friend has told me, the UK was very influential in shaping EU legislation. Its diplomatic influence there was world class thanks to its Commonwealth history and was much admired in the EU and its pragmatism is much missed.

EU legislation such as Solvency II* which Johnson has criticised and wants to amend (and the EU is separately amending) was led by the UK and shaped by our insurance expertise.

* Determines the riskiness of assets that insurance companies can invest insurance premiums in

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Die wasn't cast at all in 2007, no one gave a toss about Europe back then

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There should have been a referendum on both treaty's.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I know, I remember it well but it didn't resonate until the referendum was announced, it barely made the top ten of issues on the doorstep until 2012

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Surely not!

https://www.ft.com/content/86a76122-...d-003e39ba50b4

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don't think this is typical of future deals that will be done with other countries, though. Although not a 'rollover' deal, it was modest in nature and didn't include services, which I think is the area where we can make a real difference. The main purpose of the Australia deal was to enhance our chances of joining the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Interesting to see some real-life case studies coming through.

Something in this to support what Leave and Remain sides said.

Leave advocates will see evidence that no more EU workers means a rise in wages and therefore some workers are better off.

Remain advocates will see a key advocate of Brexit become loss-making as a result of Brexit, so fulfilling some of the negative projections of Brexit.
https://www.ft.com/content/3a58c426-...d-442b6ac59216

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If so many EU citizens left after Brexit, how come over 5m of them are claiming UK settled status?
A year ago.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Exactly, stop moaning Tim, you knew what you were voting for

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The essential truth about Brexit:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FXiFn72X...g&name=900x900

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Bless.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So when did the US, Germany, France, Spain, Poland, and others, leave the EU? They ALL have shortages of workers.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No one said they did.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I didn't realise the US was ever in the EU.

You learn something every day!:D:D:D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Brexit was designed to create a temporary shortage of unskilled labour in order to push up wages. This shows that the policy is working.

In the end, employers will have to offer decent training and decent wages to workers in order to fill their vacancies, and we will get to a point of equilibrium. That was always part of the Brexit plan.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So when are the Government going to increase the funding of public services so they can afford to push up wages?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Interesting. Labour shortages are generally inflationary as the costs of goods increases to compensate for higher wages. If productivity does not increase in line with wages, then the value of the pound will drop against other currencies.

Of particular concern is the dollar as this is what we buy our energy with. If energy becomes more expensive, then costs rise, creating inflation, fuelling wage rises, dropping the value of the pound and so on. Labour shortages are really bad for economies - brace for impact

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Why increase funding when it needs pruning?

If the size of the public sector is reduced substantially, those remaining can have a pay rise based on increased productivity, just like the railway workers could, and some of that money could be returned to the taxpayer.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nice idea, who do you proposed will do all the things your substantially reduced public sector will no longer be able to do?

The problem with armchair accountants is they don't appreciate all the things public services do which they take for granted. These are almost certainly the same people who'd be the first to complain when the impacts of their wholesale root and branch pruning start to show. After 12 years of the Conservatives reducing the funding for local government there isn't really anything else left to chop, not when many of the services carried out by local government are a duty so can't be avoided. And by the way, many of the cuts proposed for local government are still in the pipeline, so it's going to get worse than it is now.

It's the Conservative funding model which has had a very large impact on the social care local council's can offer resulting in the crises we're experiencing now and has resulted in the introduction of the social care levy. If the Government felt social care could be cured by reducing staff numbers even more, they would've cut it even more. The fact they're now taxing us more to try and reverse a cock-up of their own making shows the cut cut cut mentality just doesn't work.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We need more civil servants than ever as we are now duplicating EU regulatory bodies.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What we need to do is identify which departments and quangos we still need to retain, how they could be better organised and then who are the ‘doers’ that we want to keep.

There is too much dross in the Civil Service and many of these people are actually working hard to frustrate the government.

We don’t need to cut services. At all. On the contrary, many of them need improving.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Where's your evidence for that and what do you mean by it too?

Saying 'this policy is unworkable' is not the same as 'working hard to frustrate the government'

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

One of the real problems with any system on a large scale are the dishonest who seek to play the system to their advantage. This causes the system to be more complex with exceptions and exceptions to the exceptions ad-ininitum. In turn this needs more people to police the system and makes the system less efficient needing an additional system to cover the period before the first system completes.


I guess we all know how the system should work, it's usually obvious but thanks to a minority what should be simple and streamlined gets very complex and unwieldy. A simple system should be cheaper to implement leaving more money and resource for provision in the system. It's why simply throwing money/resource at the problem rarely works.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

He’s just echoing Johnson’s "deep state" bolleaux.

Politicians often propose unachievable aims and targets to gain press coverage and acclamation*, often with no idea of the complexity of the issues involved, then blame others when things don’t happen.

"Just Do It" is not a valid planning methodology.

*remember Johnson’s first speech as PM in July 2019?

Here is the progress of the "clear plan we have prepared"

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk...ings/cbp-8001/

tl:dr - very little has happened in 3 years on this "clear plan", but yes, let’s blame the Civil Servants, not the proven lying liar who actually made the speech… :dozey:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Expect Covid 19 to be scapegoated here.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Already has been - from the quoted link above

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

With good reason, or do you now think it had no impact whatsover ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

"No impact whatsoever" and "partial impact" are different bedfellows.

It can't take all the blame here for three years of minimal progress can it? Not sure we'd all get away at work with pulling that particular stunt!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Also even if the implementation was delayed due Covid, I wouldn't accept from any party saying "with a clear plan we have prepared" and then still not have that plan three years later.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Where is the £350 million a week for the NHS the Brexit bus promised?

The Tories claim they are giving more money to the NHS, but are they really?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Oh, so you don’t think that affected anything? For God sake, Andrew, wake up. Everything was thrown at Covid when it happened, you know that and the public will understand the delay that led to when it comes to the election.

---------- Post added at 12:31 ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 ----------

That and Partygate, yes, there are very good reasons why things have been delayed.

However, time now to pick up the pace.

---------- Post added at 12:32 ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 ----------

A little unreasonable of you, don’t you think?

---------- Post added at 12:33 ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 ----------

That money is being given to the NHS.

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-06-16/...overnment-says

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If that’s genuinely the intent why aren’t we leaving the market to it and instead urging “wage restraint”?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-b2021380.html

---------- Post added at 12:43 ---------- Previous post was at 12:42 ----------

:rofl:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So you're using the reporting of a campaign promise by Theresa May in 2018 to prove that the £350 million a week is being given to the NHS?

Bold move...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Er, we now have a temporary issue with the Ukraine war, remember?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You forgot to mention your own vested interest in not wanting any further cuts to local Government funding.

Services classified as statutory can be reclassified or outsourced to the private/voluntary sector. They need not always be viewed as statutory functions, nor must they always be carried out by the local authority.

Didn't you learn anything from CCT/Best value/market testing?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:rofl:

Aw, bless. They've properly pulled the wool over your eyes.

Even still, if we accepted your false premise, surely the market is best left to resolve these issues by itself? Those with entrepreneurial spirit will surely find a way to cultivate and reward the highest quality staff, drive down other costs through efficiencies, and return profits? No?

Even before Ukraine we had the state trying to interfere in the market for HGV drivers.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...iving-25074103

Surely they should all be competing with each other for the smaller pool and driving up wages for this high skilled job? Why are HGV drivers exempt from the fruits of this glorious post-Brexit world?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Grim's correct though. So many councils up and down the country, red and blue are in serious financial difficulties. Outsourcing services isn't going to make up for the substantial reduction in funding that they've had since austerity first reared its head. Per this chart, a 63% reduction in core funding from 2010 to 2020. But we do seem to beading off topic so I'll try and avoid saying more on this.
https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/ou...cade-austerity

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Where they are delivered at higher cost and lower quality to service users due to the loss of economies of scale. The pretence that anything delivered by the public sector can magically be done by someone else is exactly the decades of economic failure that Truss is talking about.

All the attractive stuff is gone - end users being price gouged by train operators, energy companies and broadband providers where competition has been entirely manufactured.

Taking a paid job and handing it to someone in the voluntary sector takes spending power out of the local economy.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yes I am employed in local government, however because I work in a specialist area our team also works in a consultancy capacity for other authorities/public bodies and many private companies and we actually make a net contribution to the budget. The surplus we make is directly fed back to support other functions of the authority, so I feel I'm in a situation which fortunately shields my team from the majority of cuts but the downside is the pressure we can be under to fulfill our primary role to the authority while at the same time still bringing in the expected income.

Services can be reclassified and moved from local authority's remits. However, changes like those you seem to want to see do not necessarily result in an improved service. There are many services that wouldn't benefit from the ideology of outsourcing for the sake of outsourcing - for example, I'd rather have food hygiene staying in the public domain than being turned in to a money making enterprise run by some massive PLC which has profit for shareholders higher up its list of priorities than public health.

How would you feel if your local authority announced it was knocking any disability related work on the head because the rules had changed and they were no longer responsible? How would you feel if your local authority sold all their on and off road parking spaces to Megaparking PLC who announced the end of free parking for Blue Badge holders because they could sell those spaces to paying customers to increase their profits? How would you feel if your local authority decided to stop it's adaptions sevices etc etc.

I think you'll find by now most services that can return a nice profit for the private sector are already there, and those services the council's can palm off to volunteers have been palmed off. Those left are pretty much unprofitable or of a type nobody would do for free.

Compulsory competitive tendering, best value or whatever you call it isn't the panecea you maybe think it is. I'd imagine a good proportion of services are tendered on a cost vs quality basis where the tender is scored for price and quality to ensure a good quality service because sometimes cheapest can be so poor the final cost is very high when the additional cost to make good the poor service is included. For small projects the additional administration costs of the tendering process can more than outweigh any resultant savings. Fortunately, most authorities have processes in place to enable them to avoid pointless competitive procurement procedures for example when there is only one supplier or if the service or item being procured is logically best from one supplier for reasons of say service continuity.

Anyway, this is moving away from the subject of the thread.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

2016: Faisal Islam at Sky News is accused of spreading fake news by Brexiteers when he says he's been told the Brexit divorce bill could reach €50bn.

Suella Braverman says it's Project Fear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5lX--LIGQo

2022: As MPs depart for the Summer recess, the Treasury advises the Brexit divorce bill will in fact be €50bn. https://twitter.com/faisalislam/stat...61681950687233

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think that some things are done better by the private sector, some the public sector and some the voluntary sector.

An interesting programme about the affects of Brexit on the economy:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct39t7

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Thanks. I suspect no one will disagree with your first sentence.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...17d584cdc78ea0

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Dover has successfully abolished freedom of movement, in line with their 2016 voting. Well done Dover!

The UK mandating that every passport is verified and stamped before travel? Who could have predicated the chaos and hours long queues on the first Summer holiday getaway weekend.

More Brexit Bonus delivery ..

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYQNJoKW...g&name=900x900

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That'll have nothing to do with the French not sending enough staff then?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sure, it is the French's fault we added the extra paperwork causing the delays. :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sure, but any delays would have been shorter if more staff had done their duty and turned up. :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And all our fruit would have been picked and not gone to waste, for the same reasons too.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So there isn't any fruit being picked and used? same old same old from you, Andrew.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Like Pritti Patel, your calculator has let you down again.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Ah, an unforeseen technical incident, how convenient.:rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And now Eurotunnekl has joined in saying the "problem" was minor and had no bearing on the staff not turning-up.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Just get used to the permanent increase in processing times esp. in peak periods. All part of the plan ..

When you think of Brexit or when someone points out that Brexit is the cause of X or Y, never assume that it is the cause of the issue, always conclude that is forms a significant part, sometimes the major part, of the cause and you won't go far wrong.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Seph, you miss my point. Everywhere you see problems, you will very likely see a significant Brexit contribution. This is the serious point here: this degradation of our country's ability to function in so many sectors was wilfully misrepresented.

The prime movers of the project were driven by the promise of wealth & profit. Not for us as a whole but for the small elite that control the disproportionate amount of power & influence. This is the real tragedy here.

So depressing. You cannot feed "sovereignty" to your kids or use it to heat your home. The sinister backers in the shadows literally stole the birth right of a generation. No one born in this millennium voted for this yet here they are, having to suck it up.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Spot on Ian, as the 5th or 6th wealthiest country in the world we are going to have a significant proportion of the population struggling with a heat vs eat (or neither) conundrum this winter. We're turning in to a third world country under this dreadful governments woeful decisions.