Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's pretty much the way inflation works. The clue is in the word itself.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And those workers still have rent,mortgage,travel,energy and food to buy but this is stuff Boris has never had to worry about or pay for when he can get others to do so.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Careful … you’re exposing your limited understanding of economics a bit here.

A high skill, high wage economy (sans high inflation) is achieved by productivity improvements and rebalancing the economy so more of its output is high-value goods and services. Much easier to say than to do, but it is possible and it is a valid policy objective.

A wage-inflation spiral is a different beast altogether, with each measure increasing in response to the other. We spent a chunk of the 1970s and 80s stuck there. Avoidance of that is another valid policy objective.

There is no inevitable link between high wages and inflation. It’s the cause of the high wages that’s of interest.

Naturally, you may take issue with how likely present government policy is to deliver an economy whose productivity levels and goods values could support high wages. Low productivity is a British disease, which with regards to the latest OECD forecasts, has been a persistent problem of ours for decades.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I fail to see how it’s a limited understanding of economics to point out that it’s a complete pipe dream and this Government has no interest in developing a high wage economy that benefits the vast majority of people in it. However that’s no real surprise. As long as London is alright I suppose. They can keep the proles distracted with culture wars.

I’m intrigued at how they propose to stimulate the market for “high value goods and services” while trade barriers increase and the UK gets poorer.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Except you didn’t point that out - you drew a false equivalence between two related but distinct policy objectives, in a perfunctory, Twitter-friendly, two sentence post that, if it didn’t expose your own ignorance, sought to exploit that of others.

Discussion of how likely the present government is to achieve its high-wage aim is legitimate but besides the point you were trying to make. Whatever that was.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I’m not sure it can legitimately be described as a false equivalence. As you describe they are absolutely related policy objectives. Neither policy exists in a vacuum.

If the Government position is that the vast majority of workers should accept real terms pay reductions to reduce inflation longer term then that’s the exact opposite of creating a high skill, high wage economy. It’s a race to the bottom. Which you well know.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Ok, once more …

Pursuing high wages as a result of an economy exhibiting high productivity of high value products and services, and resisting wage demands resulting from inflationary pressure, are not contradictory positions. It really is that simple. You are the only one here that seems confused about it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And giving workers pay cuts in real terms puts downward pressure on wages in these hypothetical “high wage, high skilled” jobs. These jobs don’t exist in isolation exempt from the rules of the employment market.

Pursuing high wages as a result of an economy exhibiting high productivity of high value products and services is merely a soundbite if the underlying economic conditions don’t support it and the rising cost of living erodes any benefit.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As I said - discussion of how likely this government is to deliver on that policy aim is perfectly valid. Just besides the narrow point you tried to make earlier.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I’m at a loss why you replied at all given you acknowledge the link a few posts later.

The pretence that living standards across the board are unrelated to high wage jobs does little for your own economic literacy.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:banghead:

This exchange has been as painful as watching a Labour MP try to explain how a woman can have a penis. ( you can guess who this is aimed at)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Reports coming out of a Cabinet split between Johnson and Truss on her plans - inspired by the European Research Group - to tear up parts of the Brexit Treaty with the EU.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You are right. This lie is structurally impossible given the nature of our economy and the priorities of Tory government. They are in power for one reason and one reason only and that is to continue the unequal distribution of wealth to the ultra-wealthy.

A high skill, high wage economy is inconsistent with their goals, and the goals of their wealthy donors. Look the failing NHS, the low state pension, the crumbling state infrastructure and then ask yourself who are they working for?

Yes, you will get the useful idiots who will claim that it will be "fine" and they will "level up". More lies so the morons who believed them last time will do so again.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Johnson has swapped highly-skilled jobs in science via the EU Horizon programme for low-paid farm and service sector jobs.

He wants to pander to the DUP more than he wants a high wage economy.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

In summary, he does not have a clue. He is more concerned on saving his own skin and pandering to his own ego than doing what is the country's best interest.

Here's a visual of the OECD growth projections:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUwB5_xX...jpg&name=small

The bottom is the country that the world has sanctioned and the one next to bottom is the one that imposed sanctions on itself :)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

A high skill, high wage economy is a noble aim but there is a problem - who does the low wage, low skill jobs? This has been a problem since the Blair years where many more people went to university and got those high skills and corresponding high wages. We were told to get an education or we would be flipping burgers. The problem is now who is going to flip the burgers?

EU immigration was a useful sticking plaster that covered this gap and (whisper it quietly) successive governments were quite happy to let this continue, especially as EU immigrants were the only personal net contributors to UK taxation over the period of their life in the UK.

Education in this country seems to be doing well in doing more vocational courses. My eldest has just picked her A levels but the choices for vocational education looked really good too. However, there needs to be a sea change in how jobs like building, care, etc. are seen in this country. In Germany, these jobs aren't seen as jobs for people not smart enough to get higher education but true vocations in themselves. I am not sure sure careers are so well respected in the UK

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Really good points esp. about societal respect for non-academic careers. As I mentioned before, this country is not structured for the same career journey an Electrician might have in Germany for example. The class system we have here demands that people like Electricians, Builders, Plumbers, etc are labelled as "Working Class" and should be treated as such.

The high profit, low wage economy we are moving further towards is inconsistent with the high wage, high skill PR pitch. You look at the graduates leaving Uni and trying to find jobs and tell me most get high wage jobs. Not in my experience they don't esp. if they are not skilled in the "right" ones. Got an Arts degree? Good luck ..

---------- Post added at 09:33 ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 ----------

An exact précis

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Some context to underline my point:

In 2010, there were 29 billionaires in the UK. In 2021, there are now 171. Despite the economic turmoil, 24 people became billionaires in UK during pandemic. These are the true winners from Tory government.

I am surprised you are willing to justify & support visible corruption. The VIP lane was just that.

https://www.transparency.org.uk/cour...vid-19-inquiry

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There was of course a very different appreciation in the last couple of years as a lot of the people we are talking about here were key workers, keeping the country running. The applause didn't really last long did it...

That is a good point about degrees but I guess it depends on what you class the degree as being for. You could argue that degrees with an obvious end point such as medicine and law are almost vocational courses in their own right while other are education for the sake of learning. It doesn't mean that those degrees are worthless unless you want to work directly in the field of art history for example as they show that the graduate has the drive to learn independently. I mean, if someone who studies classics can get to the top spot, there must be some value..

In Ireland, non-'vocational' degrees do not get much funding these days as there is a continuing drive to boost the skills of the Irish population. The country of James Joyce and Brendan Behan has no one studying their works at a high level

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Fiscal "policy" needs to apply to everyone. In the good times you save a bit so in the hard times you have something to help you through, that is you don't increase your spending to match your income. (Now please I do understand that there will be some who can't do this.) We have only really been able to put a good bit aside since 2019 when the mortgage was paid off but once it was we didn't spend all the surplus other than when every goes wrong at once - new car, boiler, washing machine, solar panel inverter etc. Plus children off to uni and my participating in some training.


The same is true on the macro scale, in the good years you save so in the bad times you have that resource to use but (generally) the Labour crew like to spend and the Tories don't like to collect.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As Crime Minister of the UK, how do you distract from being found guilty of breaking British laws that you made? Maybe have a crack at breaking some international ones?

https://www.ft.com/content/02891815-...1-31c7b592aeef

Of course, signing the original deal was a bit awkward when you had promised no checks to NI back in 2019!
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...checked-brexit

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The absurdity of the government's actions is neatly summarised in this Tweet.
https://twitter.com/arthistorynews/s...04598751043585

Some good analysis here from David Allen Green. Another waste of taxpayers' money by this government.

https://davidallengreen.com/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Who’d you steal that from?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think that's been his unofficial title since the FPN.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Lack of EU workers is proving problematical. We've heard about farming. Now it's the turn of travel and broadband.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...workers-uk/amp

https://www.ft.com/content/6038500d-...e-d884a6fcc907

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I work in the telecoms sector and I call bullshit from BT on this one. That’s pure deflection from BT on the failure to build rurally - because there’s no money in it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Don’t worry, Andrew. When the new trade agreement with India is signed, we’ll get our overseas labour from there. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Do you really think that we'll be signing a trade deal with Putin's chums in the near future? You must clearly be joking! :D

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/92303530.cms
https://theprint.in/opinion/buying-r...-hands/998913/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If we expect all our trading partners to be squeaky clean, we won’t be able to trade with anyone.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It appears you're suggesting that we sign a trade deal with a country dependent on Russia both for its defence infrastructure and energy. Not that there's any such trade deal waiting to be signed, of course!

How well do you think this would sit with our allies, particularly Zelensky who Johnson calls every time he's in political trouble.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

of course UK dont care about them being squeaky clean just look with our arms deal with one of the most vile counties in the world in Saudi that is just one example

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Nonsensical one sided rubbish from you as usual, given many EU member states still paying billions in to Russia, for its gas. You’re always conveniently forgetting the whole picture Dave42.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

it all bad for Eu to get gas from Russia but all good for tories to get Russian money and make a former KGB agent son a lord right

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yeah because Labour have never done that right?

Wrong!

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...russian-riches

Your precious Labour just as bad. :rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Justifying immoral. unethical or potentially criminal behaviour with

‘Well, if they’ve done it, it’s ok for us to do it too.’

No the wonder that all of our political parties aren’t worth tuppence ha’penny

Seems to be a view spreading further into wider society as well

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think it's also important to draw a distinction before and after key revelatory events like the invasion of Crimea and Donbas in 2014 and the Salisbury Novichock poisonings in 2018.

Trade with Russia and donations from Russian entities was increasingly cynical since 2018's poisonings which left few in doubt about Russia's way of working.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It’s not about that, it’s about certain folk like you, always portraying one side as bad, when the full picture is both sides are just as bad, but the real crux of this issue, you and certain others, can’t stomach that your precious Labour Party is just as corrupt.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Certain people like me portraying one side as bad ? When the post you’ve just quoted references ALL parties ?

The same me who said that if found guilty Starmer & Rayner should be gone?

PS I’m not a staunch Labour voter, I’ve voted for them once in my entire life

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Brexit benefit finally identified by the government!
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/othe...?ocid=msedgntp

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But if "city bosses" make more moolah and then spend it in the UK that is a positive. (They will probably find a way to avoid tax).



True it is divisory in one sense and like will cause problems looking at the disparity between the top and bottom earners but that disparity is always going to be there. As a Christian I believe that God will call to account those who "have" on what they've done with what He has given them. I have no problem with people having lots but they need to be generous and not only to those who can "pay it back".

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I am no theologian but I thought Christ was quite explicit in his preachings that excessive wealth was an anathema to him?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ...th#The_Gospels

Of course, later on when man reinterpreted his original message to "allow" wealth as long you are "generous" did we arrive at the normalising of obscene wealth and the illusion of trickle down economics.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You'd need a degree in Science fiction to sort that one out.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Paging Chris!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The disparity is growing daily, the workers pay has stagnated since the seventies when I believe the 'bosses' pay was 40 times the average worker, it's now 300 times the average, it trickles one way and it ain't down, so much for high skill, high wage economy, the first time the little man asks for a pay rise he's told that's not for you and has to threaten strikes

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

2010: 20 billionaires
2021: 170 billionaires

I'd say your analysis is spot on. One big con trick ..

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That’s inflation for you! :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I blame Starmer. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

How much of that money was earned outside the UK? Nothing to do with the UK.
Their wealth is not in the form of cash in the bank. It also depends on there being other billionaires who can afford to give them billions if they were going to sell.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

OB, I commend you! Brilliant :D

---------- Post added at 20:28 ---------- Previous post was at 20:27 ----------

Shilling for the ultra wealthy is not a good look

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If it had been in line with U.K. inflation, there would be 25 billionaires…

;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Just facts. There were more than 10 in 2010. The financial crash lowered the number by 2010.

What have businesses outside the UK got to do with any "trickle down" in the UK?:rolleyes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

He said 20…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Still more than 20, 30, 40.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What is interesting, as well as inevitable, is the increasing number of articles & reports detailing the role of Brexit in the problems we see today.

Brexit will leave workers poorer than they would have been and has damaged Britain's competitiveness, new study says

https://twitter.com/i/status/1539170022295277568

and yes, even Piers Morgan is discussing it:

You know its a real problem for the Tories when the Express starts whinging:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FU2EIJDX...png&name=small

This will become more of an issue for the Tories as the pain of Brexit seen in inflation, etc. starts to bite people who, previously, may not of cared too much.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think one indication is that Brexit is not working is the fact that the government acknowledges that customs imports checks add increased costs so it is postponing these for years.

The Resolution Report which generated the Evening Standard headline Brexit will hit workers’ real wages by nearly £500-a-year is a powerful way of demonstrating the downside of Brexit in a way that a reduction in GDP does not.

I'm sure there will be many cynics who think you spent the day searching for bad news stories on Brexit. The reality is apart from bankers' bonuses, there are no genuine Brexit benefit stories. We could have had blue passports and crown marks on pints before Brexit, to take some of the more talked-about benefits.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's permanent due to increased costs rendering the country less productive.

I think the original report is worth reading. It's a calm, a-political and evidence-based read.

https://www.resolutionfoundation.org...he-big-brexit/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Of course, everything is just fine in the land of milk and honey

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ke-2022-06-20/

https://apnews.com/article/germany-p...igher%20prices.

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...is-mounts.html

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Brexit will leave workers poorer than they would have been and has damaged Britain's competitiveness, new study says

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-wi...-says-12638190

---------- Post added at 15:10 ---------- Previous post was at 15:06 ----------

if brexit is so great why is it only Russia is a worse place that UK in the G20 clue Russia is sanctioned by lots of word UK only country in word to impose economic sanctions on itself

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The nuanced report is not about the rest of the World being just fine or not. It's about the impact of Brexit on the UK in the long-term.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Maybe the permanent reduction of GDP was on the backside of the bus ;) Pity you can't eat "sovereignty" ..

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well people should have cared

the price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men

Plato said that thousands of years ago and it's as true now as it was then, that's not saying I think bozo and his chums are evil but whose interests are they acting in, that's the price of indifference today imho

---------- Post added at 16:27 ---------- Previous post was at 16:26 ----------

Not really what was promised though was it, could have worked wonders

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The Ruble has actually bounced back and is performing very well at the moment, as Russian fuel sales are up.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Brexit’s Legacy Is Hotter UK Inflation Risk for Years Ahead
‘The economy is extremely fragile,’ says Citigroup strategist
Brexit is a key reason why investors are still avoiding the UK

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic..._medium=social

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I would always treat a “study” that try’s to “predict” anything, and is based on “estimates” with a healthy dose of scepticism.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yes it could, if there had not been Brexit saboteurs in the ranks. Problem with Remainiacs (A Remainiac is a vote remainer, who has never accepted the result and follows a ridiculous cult like belief that the result was due to lies, despite there being several democratic exercises that showed, the country wanted Brexit) that they desperately want it to fail, so we can rejoin a corrupted EU. The EU have not played ball at all. Punishing a country to dare leave its midst.

I still do not regret my vote to leave 6 years ago today. I was not lied to, or deceived and would still vote leave again and again. We have the democratic right to self determination. I was always prepared to accept any economic pain for our right to be an independent self governing nation. We are still coming through the economic pain of a global pandemic, but there is no doubt the naysayers and anti democratic folk want failure to validate their justification to be part of the EU.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I agree it's also worth putting your critical thinking hat on when reading anything and looking at the organisation publishing the report. In this instance, it's the well-respected and very transparent Resolution Foundation whose stated aim is to improve the standard of living of low- and middle-income families.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

On my personal wealth I love this scripture :
'I ask you, God, to let me have two things before I die: keep me from lying, and let me be neither rich nor poor. So give me only as much food as I need. If I have more, I might say that I do not need you. But if I am poor, I might steal and bring disgrace on my God. '



More generally I don't see anywhere condemnation of wealth but only on how it is used. He also makes it clear that our first love should be for God and we can't serve both God and wealth.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If we’re trading Bible verses, “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” - Matthew 19:24.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Exactly. IMO, ultra-wealth is incompatible with the original (not re-interpreted) teachings of Christ.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Strangely enough, if one Googles "EU Kingdom of God”, nothing to be seen…

Or to put it Biblically

;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Any chance we can end the biblical talk?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Stepping away from theology, it's the time of Wall Street to take a look at the British economy's prospects. It makes for a somewhat sobering read.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic..._medium=social

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

On second thoughts, now Andy pandy’s shown up with more misery Brexit prediction, the biblical talk was more comforting. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I read this yesterday.

Seems to gloss over that the current wave of inflation is pretty much a western global issue, not just a UK issue

Also

I wasn't aware we had lost "access" to the single market. We're no longer in it but we still have access to it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Soz, I was just trying to help you out there! :D

---------- Post added at 12:43 ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 ----------

The key part on UK inflation is:
We've lost it for labour and it's now harder for goods.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We didn’t have an inflation problem until Russia invaded Ukraine and put fuel prices up. After 12 months from the start of the higher level of inflation, the numbers will come down by themselves unless energy costs continue their upward trend or pay rises get out of control.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It was 6% in February before the invasion - three times the Bank of England's target of 2%.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...3&d=1655996028
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/22/b...tion-rate.html

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Source data…

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/infla...lation/may2022

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...4&d=1655997462

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

To pre-empt replies, demonstrating to Old Boy that the UK had an inflation rate problem before Russia invaded Ukraine and put fuel prices up, does not mean that other countries did not have inflation rate problems too.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Indeed, Old Boy is clearly incorrect as the above shows. But, yes we sleepwalked into an inflationary crisis because Western central banks printed money to enable spending, because they all thought it was great idea to shut down Western economies for a very survivable respiratory illness.

Welcome to your lockdown reward.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The result was due to lies, the fact we're here talking about it proves it, where are the sunlit uplands, where is the German car industry not standing for it, what's happened to the fishermen and farmers who were promised the earth and now don't have jobs or businesses, I'm no remaniac as I don't want us going back in after all this but at the same time I want the people responsible to be held account, Where's the 40 million Turks that were on their way here, they get lost or something and the government was given such a democratic mandate to get this sorted, Where's the oven ready deal, instead all we're getting is it's the EUs fault because we never expected then to sign the deal, wtf what sort of reckless incompetent cretin would take a chance like that, we're only going to break international law in a limited way, wtf it's still breaking it cretin, that victorian hat stand has spent months looking for a brexit dividend and got so desperate he resorted to asking The Sun readers for their's but he made sure he got his dividend by opening up an office in the EU.

You might have been prepared for economic pain but how many of the 52% were, they were promised no pain, they were only promised better and this is not better

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I know you probably posted this to get a reaction, but I’m pretty sure the 180,000 (and their families and friends) who didn’t survive this "survivable respiratory illness" may disagree with your definition of "survivable"…

Actual definition

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:clap::clap::clap:

exactly well said before election oven ready deal best deal since sliced bread soon after election is won worse deal we need to change it as it is EU's fault for sticking to the deal we signed

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think I've said more than once that Boza is just a snake oil salesman (in a posh suit probably paid for by someone else). Well I suppose we've ended up with what minority majority voted for and deserve all we get. One day things will change and it'll get better.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I hope that day is sooner rather than later :erm: In complete agreement with you, Dave42 and theDaddy.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I didn’t but….just for the U.K……a disease that kills just 0.26% of the population over two years or so ……..is by any definition “survivable”………statistically.

I mean if a doctor said to me, “I’m afraid it’s bowel cancer - but the survival rate is 99.74% ……I’d take those odds……..I’d call that “survivable”.

So no, I didn’t post it to get a “reaction” and it’s very sad a lot people died….for a variety of reasons and mistakes…………but it doesn’t change the fact that COVID for the vast majority of the population was very much “survivable”.

My position on this, and lockdowns, I think you will agree has been consistent throughout.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://committees.parliament.uk/com...ustralia-deal/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:confused: I thought shortages of airport and other workers was down to Brexit.
When did Germany leave the EU?
Link
Link

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Any point in a storm.

The global position following COVID, and now Russia Ukraine, is all over the shop. But it won’t stop the usual suspects trying to pin our ills on Brexit.

Brexit May, or may have not, helped our position but it is irrelevant. Brexit happened, trying to judge how things may have been different achieves nothing and means nothing. It is pretty much agreed we’re not going back in.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It's possible for labour shortages to occur in different countries for different reasons.
It's good to see Germany trying to sort its airports problem out.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It has the whole of the EU to call upon, yet it still has to go outside the EU.
What about all the other shortages of workers that they have?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Simplistic at best

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Good deal for EU know who!
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/othe...29031ab0c8d951