Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Done. I will let you know...

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Anyone got a link to Richard Clayton's whole synopsis ?

I've just seen the channel 4 summary and would like hear some more of what Clayton had to say.

Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb3OYpMLQZU

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

#3859 for the captains video's and
http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2...#comment-28826
and
http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2...#comment-28996
for the comments, you can get to the PDF and writeup by looking at the top and clicking the links there

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

5 minutes 27 secs into the clip, poor Emma Sanderson stumbles over the basis of BT's belief that their interceptions of customer private data was legal...

"We've conducted extensive research [stumble] er legal [stumble] or SOUGHT extensive legal advice" (Caps used are her emphasis in recovering from saying what she did not mean to say) - was it just reasearch perhaps? Was it legal research? Or did they really take proper, reliable legal counsel on it ...I wonder!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

;)
(sorry about that, some oddball formatting, sorted now)

pete makes the same points i made a while back now, there were probably many professional people that came under the unlawful interception during the times outlined....

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/pi...il/084549.html
"Home Office Disclosure: Phorm
Pete John ukcrypto at chiark.greenend.org.uk
Fri, 18 Apr 2008 16:47:44 +0100
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I asked the Home Office, under the Freedom of Information Act, to explain
whether they were made aware that BT were testing Phorm systems in 2006/7,
whether the trial was authorised by the Home Office, when they first started
advising BT/Phorm/ISPs, and what instruction they are giving Police
Detectives.

>From the statement received the Home Office I draw these conclusions.
The Home Office were unaware that systems supplied by Phorm were being used to monitor Internet traffic in 2006/7.

Consequently, the trail was likely to have indiscriminately intercepted
traffic relating to Military Staff, Police Officers, Judges, Solicitors,
MPs, Doctors, Bankers, Civil Servants, Security Services and ordinary
citizens without any Home Office advice or oversight.

There was no authorisation given by the Home Office to conduct trials of
Phorm in 2006/7.

The first contact with the Home Office was 4 February 2008... meaning that
Phorm and BT conducted trials in 2006/7 without ever consulting the Home
Office, and acted without that advice in hand (including advice concerning
consent to intercept, and assumed consent).

And no Police Detectives have sought advice from the Home Office concerning
RIPA. (I plan to pursue that question; what advise would Police Officers be
given?).

The response received from Simon Watkin is shared with you below.
regards
Pete.
------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr John,
You write:
“…. it is clear your office were advising Phorm in January 2008. Well before
the public announcement of agreements between Phorm and Internet Service
Providers�

The Home Office was approached by a number of parties, both technology
providers and ISPs, seeking a view about issues relating to the provision of
targeted online advertising services, particularly their relation to Part 1
of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. The single response to
those requests was made in the informal guidance note, dated January 2008,
which was not made available to any of those parties until 4 February 2008.

Please now inform me

- Whether the Home Office were made aware of the secret trials conducted by
Phorm in 2006/7

It wasn’t.

- Whether the Home Office authorised secret trials conducted by Phorm in
2006/7

The Home Office was not aware of the trials/tests.

- When you first started advising BT and Phorm (and other ISPs)

Asked for a view we gave that view to all parties who asked for it on or
after 4 February 2008.

- What advice Police Detective Inspectors are being given by the Home Office
concerning prosecutions of BT (and other ISPs)

No such advice has been sought.

I have asked my press office to communicate this response to Chris Williams
at The Register.
Simon Watkin
HOME OFFICE

---------- Post added at 10:51 ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 ----------

that same
BRIAN BERGSTEIN
Associated Press
April 18, 2008 at 2:52 PM EDT

just got put up on another site, this time in the us and theres a comments section if you dont want to write a story to counter this wide spread news copy, you might want to at least comment on its contents here:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...echnology/home

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My first book on EU Law arrived this morning. It was like my birthday, wrapped and tied with a ribbon with a card, a very exciting experience. The book appears to be very good as well, I read the first chapter this morning before I went to sleep. So my sincere thanks for the person who sent it.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Very interested in this topic - I also note that there is a facebook group called 'Invite people to Save UK internet privacy - reject ISPs that use Phorm' - suggest that facebook users who are following this should join and send it on to any of their friends who are likely to be interested. Viral marketing can be very powerful .....
Alex Geller

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well my Masters will be focusing on privacy, technology and related human rights on a UK, European and International basis. So I won't be going into torts too much. I will read up on torts once I deal with all the other priorities though.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I seriously wonder to what extent we can rely on law to defeat Phorm. We mustn't give up on that route, but I would suggest we should be making a parallel attack in a route that could prove more effective - undermining the profits to be made from the scheme by pimps such as Phorm.

This week an important step forward has been made in that BT have acknowledged the right of owners of websites to opt out of all profiling of visitors to their sites without having to exclude the search engines such as Google. We need to get thousands of websites doing exactly that. Individuals running hobbyist, small organisations or club websites I would think would be keen to prevent their websites being exploited in this way. I would have thought that any commercial organisation which was not intending to place advertising with Phorm (or similar companies) would be keen to exclude the possibility of their competitors adverts being promoted as a result of visitors to their own sites.

If we are to do this two initial steps come to mind.

1) We need an agreed standard statement that can be placed at the foot of the home page of websites joining this "league".

2) We need a website where we can register that we are opting our websites out. This should then be published as a list. If Phorm argue that they can't check the home pages to look for opting out text (which may vary) we can tell them to consult the list.

A key thing is to make it as simple as possible for website owners to join in with the campaign. If Phorm decide to ignore it I would hope it would give a good starting point for a class action.

If we could get a highly visible campaign going along this lines - it's the sort of thing that could easily start to snowball - I imagine it would start to worry the investors who would see hope of profits disappearing fast.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What we really need is for a *major* website like Google to simply bar users of BT/TT/VM... :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We got any digital artists or graphic designers that want to do me a favour? I am setting up a website dedicated to issues regarding online privacy. I think Phorm is just one of many battles to come so I want to make sure there is a central resource available to people for news, editorials and campaigns. I would like to include some security tools too such as cookie block lists and an implementation of Dephormation's server side interception detection. I also want to look at the feasibility of providing md5 hash checks for pages on the site so users can verify that the site content has not changed on the way to their browser.

The web site will be on www.privacyonline.org.uk and also www.privacy-online.org.uk and I was hoping someone might be interested in designing the logo (preferably as a vector graphic so it can be used on printed material as well).

So if anyone is interested please feel free to get in touch with some ideas. Also any ajax coders out there who want to help, it would save me a lot of time designing the site and enable me to work in other areas which are currently occupying my time.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Has anyone approached Google to ask if they are aware that to exclude Phorm using robots.txt we have to exclude Google? They might have something to say about that!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have contacted a friend of mine who works for Google and asked him to make his superiors aware of this issue and also asked him to put forward a suggestion from me that Google deploy an ssl version of their search pages to prevent Phorm from profiling search terms.

I don't think there is any chance whatsoever of a big company blocking all the BT address space and I think it would be unreasonable to expect them to do so.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Google knows all...

I'd be very very surprised if Google were not following the Phorm Storm...

After all, there's only so much advertising revenue to be had...

---------- Post added at 14:24 ---------- Previous post was at 14:20 ----------

Neither do I - hence the :D

I think Phorm will rethink the robots.txt stance so as to enable selective blocking of Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

At the time of the trial I was just signed up for BT Broadband Option 3 and BT Vision. I was totally unaware at the time that PHORM ever existed. It was only on the BT forum in March of this year that I saw the reference to the dns.sysip.net cookie, which I had remembered seeing in the summer of 2007, but as I had reinstalled recently due to Vista problems the evidence was gone. A couple of weeks ago I was blocking webwise.net on my wife's laptop and prior to running CC Cleaner I was checking which cookies to keep and to my surprise I came across the cookie dns.sysip.net.

Colin

---------- Post added at 14:53 ---------- Previous post was at 14:43 ----------

Thank you very much Alexander for pointing that out and I have just sent another email to Simon stating those exact facts. I will like to see what he has to say now.

Colin

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Over the last couple of months, the website traffic of 80/20 Thinking, the Company commissioned to conduct a Privacy Impact Assessment for Phorm, will have substantially increased. What a shame that much of that exposure has been for all the wrong reasons.

People have long memories and one of the talents of the shrewd in business is in spotting when you've been delivered, as they say in rugby, a "hospital pass". My advice to 80/20T would be to get this PIA thing written fast to satisfy the commission and to then get the hell out of any association with any venture that is destined to sink or be fraught for years with the angst of a large number of very motivated people. It just ain't good for business.

There has to be a better way for a fledgling Company to make its own success and imho that is with a reputation based on something other than notoriety.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Google will do this kt88man as any moves by isp's to intercept any of there ip and the research phorm collect could be classed as anti competitive as they are stealing the inforamtion that other service is providing.

any of this information could be used by another company to make a superior product that that company provides using the target companys harvested data.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry, just catching up: the Earl is one of 80/20 Thinking's Advisory Group - won't his opinions be biased toward the success of Phorm?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Banning ISPs isn't the way to do this and only serves to extend the digital divide. We need to stop this issue through a combination of public pressure, law and public policy reforms.

Cutting people off from valuable online resources is a bad idea in my opinion.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 15:36 ---------- Previous post was at 15:34 ----------

Quite the opposite, he has already spoken out about Phorm and put an official question forward to Parliament on the issue. I believe he is addressing Parliament in person next Tuesday about his concerns over Phorm.

His emails to the public who have contacted him have also been very supportive and condemned the activities of Phorm and other such companies.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok thanks. If I were MD, I might think about removing him from the 80/20 website then! :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I still wouldnt trust any person on that associated company's advisory group and pressure put on that said person in private could influence critical descisions or questions.

some mp or higher office or eu relevant with no connection to any company would be better to direct questions too in my opinion.

its the whole association game atm im afraid who do you trust who isnt connected to the spyware clan.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just because the Earl of Northesk is out spoken about the Phorm technology it doesn't invalidate his role as an advisor to 80/20 Thinking. In fact surely it is logical to assume that people like the Earl of Northesk advising 80/20 Thinking will only help matters in the long term?

Or would you rather 80/20 Thinking were only taking advice from parties who are only interested in monetising privacy?

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed Alexander. Two people in particular stand out for me when it comes to politicians. The Earl of Northesk and Don Foster the Lib Dem Spokesman for culture and media who wrote to the chairman of BT re the secret trials.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As has figured before in this thread, perception is relevant. The photographs on the 80/20 site give the impression of validating the business which is fair enough except that this business has its sticky little fingers in something hugely unpopular. If the Earl has advised, then there was no heed. 80/20 T seem more than just an independent in this venture; they seem to be a mouthpiece too. I like to keep both my eyes open.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

well sure just tell him they tell (advise sorry) 80/20 who tell phorm who move to counter such claims makes good sense im sure you'll agree then.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.openrightsgroup.org/orgwi...rl_of_Northesk

And from his e-mail to me:

"I currently have a question for written answer on the matter awaiting a response from the Home Office. And, if I may say so, your e-mail provides me with fertile material to scrutinise the issue with even more depth and diligence, albeit that I am currently overseas and so a little constrained.

I am uncertain as to how much reassurance it may offer you but, as I have done for some ten years now, I intend to continue to prosecute the case for individual data security and privacy as strenuously as I can."

I have also directed the Earl's attention to the video footage posted online.

Just to note my professional input has been sought for various project groups not because I am a yes man but because, in the words of one colleague "You've got a critical line and you're an awkward [censored word] who points out areas of weakness."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

On a slight different note i have to say I am getting more and more frustrated with Safari for Windows. I love the browser but the GUI is ugly as sin and there don't seem to be any skins/themes out there to change its appearance. I wish I was a programmer as then I could try do something about it!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am not going to get into yet another fruitless debate about 80/20 Thinking doing the PIA for Phorm. I have made my opinion on 80/20 Thinking quite clear already and I don't see any reason to keep rehashing the same thing over and over again when the issues we should be focusing on are stopping Phorm and holding BT to account for their covert trials in 2006/2007.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap: :clap: :clap: I think the whole 80/20 thinking, while important, is a nice little distraction from what we really need to be concentrating on. While we are concentrating on that we lose time to deal with the other issues.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you read my posts, you'll find I have suggested for quite some time that the focus for action should not be on the PIA or Phorm. I am simply marking up that the Earl is an advisor to 80/20 Thinking who are as much up to their necks in this fiasco as Phorm itself. The Earl's advice therefore appears to have carried little weight when the decision was taken to accept a commission for this insidious venture and he is associated with 80/20 T whichever way it is dressed up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi All
Another long time lurker coming out of the woodwork.

I have a question about the opt in/ opt out thing.

My son gets home from school before I finish work and likes to go on the internet, now he could get the page about terms and conditions and unbeknown to him opt in to it. Surely as I pay the bill and the contract is between virgin and me it should be me that has to give authorisation?

On another note I know what OF1975 means about safari being ugly been trying it out recently, it isn't actually too bad a browser though.

Andy

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: SpinyNorman

The issue you raise is an excellent one and one that I have not seen Phorm/BT/VM deal with at all. I know its been mentioned here many times over the last few months.

---------- Post added at 16:37 ---------- Previous post was at 16:31 ----------

Of course it would be easy for Phorm/BT/VM/ to make webwise an account level opt in. You login to your ISP account and switch it on there but we all know that isn't going to happen as it would cripple Phorms business model which is predicated on opt-out and the masses being too lazy or uninPhormed to care.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: to the forum SpinyNorman

You're the third person I've seen say that Safari is ugly - are you using the Windows version? I use it on my Mac and I think it's much slicker-looking than Firefox (that just looks like a Windows 98 version of Internet Explorer -on my Mac at any rate). I wonder if the styling of Windows Safari is different to the Mac version?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In short yes he could. This question was asked at the PIA meeting on tuesday .

And it would appear from the blustering by Kent Ertegrul that the is no way to stop this happening.

I assume he think that the only way children should be allowed on the net is if their parents turn the computer on for them and start the browser session for them!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

would this then not fall somewhere into the child protection act? phorm seem to take the attitude that children dont also use computers and they dont seem to realise that they will be profiled also.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In the same way that my advice was often ignored by the decision makers of the groups I had been co-opted to. My presence on a particular advisory group did not mean that I agreed with the final decisions, as I invariably did not. Advice can be followed or ignored, it is not a mandatory instruction.

As I've said before, judge the PIA when it is published and not before. If it is as comprehensive a document as it should be then the names of all who contributed to it should be included.

Seconded. So keep on pressuring MPs, challenging Phorm when its staff or PR posts distorted facts, pointing people to the videos from the public meeting and doing whatever you can to keep this campaign alive.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This has been a concern of mine too for a while now. I did ask on the BT board (got no answer, of course) about my concern at targetting ads at my seven year old daughter.

I know this has been in the news in the past where TV adverts have been concerned, and that OFCOM has previously looked at it. See here: http://www.childwise.co.uk/softdrinksarticle2006.htm The link is a bit old, but it does give the idea that some European countries have expressed concerns about this.

Any thoughts on the legality of targetting ads at/profiling children, Alexander?

OB

Edit: Found something a bit more up to date; this one does mention web adverts. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/me...en-763944.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Fine. Seems a waste of time meeting with him and writing to him then.

And, as I've said before, the PIA is bought and irrelevant; it won't include a list or the opinions of millions of people who feel their privacy is invaded so it can't be comprehensive.

Btw, you did know he was on the 80/20 advisory group didn't you?:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It is a difficult one to be honest. As a student of sociology I have looked at consent in a lot of detail as a mandatory requirement under research methodology. Also, I have been bound by the Statement of Ethical Practice for the British Sociological Association. I have also covered consent in two papers I wrote one on a controversial scheme in the US known as Teen Screen and one on the biometric fingerprinting of school children in the UK and both papers looked at the ethical requirements with regards to the consent of minors.

I mentioned Gillick's Competence yesterday in reply to a post in this thread; which is the relevant precedent with regards to age of consent in the UK.

Certainly it would seem appropriate at an ethical level and most likely at the legal level to consider issues involving the consent of minors and I am sure this will become a policy issue should Phorm be permitted to deploy in the UK as schools and public sector services providing Internet access to minors would have a responsibility under law to protect the rights of those subjects.

But, there is a fairly expansive opinion in the UK that parents should be more responsible for what their children are doing online so there is no doubt Phorm would use this in another PR battle. So it is a very tricky situation.

Do I think age of consent and informed consent are important issues when dealing with minors? Yes I certainly do and have argued this point academically as mentioned above.

Do I think it is an incredibly complex issue that will take a great deal of time and effort and possibly even changes in public policy to address? Again yes I do.

If you have concerns over this issue, I would recommend you write a letter (not an email) to your MP expressing them; it is a serious issue and it needs to be addressed at the highest level so your MP is the best equipped person to do that on your behalf.

Sorry if I haven't been very clear but it is a very complexly faceted issue.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

On the contrary, Alexander, your answer is very clear and is most appreciated. I have already written to my MP about the Phorm/Webwise issue and did point out my concerns re targetting children but, as yet, no reply.

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just because you keep repeating something doesn't make any more relevant, accurate or truthful.

What leads you to believe that a PIA being paid for by it's subject makes it irrelevant?
Who else do you think is going to pay for Phorm's PIA?
Why do you believe that it's necessary for the PIA to contain "the opinions of millions" to be comprehensive, and by extension legitimate?

Perhaps you'd be good enough to quote relevant sections from the ICO's handbook within your answers?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Exactly, someone has to do the PIA and to be honest I would rather that task landed at the feet of one of the worlds most reputable privacy advocates than some unknown startup which exists purely to cash in on the ICO recommendations.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I didn't say it did. I was mimicking CaptJamieHunter's turn of phrase hence the italics. Duh.

I am stating my opinions; I don't ask that you accept them. Others might.

Sez who?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well Black Hat for one:

Source: http://www.blackhat.com/html/bh-euro...-speakers.html

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And Black Hat are?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am not going to continue this any further. If you want to know who Black Hat are go and look them up.

Respectfully,

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In other words, they are noone. They could be your next door neighbour. So there is no proof of credibility in any "privacy advocate".

There's become a tendency on this forum for the views of anyone but a small clique to be disregarded. It happened recently to The Jackal who is an interesting and intelligent person but whose opinions were dismissed for being different to those of others.

Get a grip. This is a forum not a stage. I'll be back, have to go eat :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's your opinion and if you're happy to do nothing then that's your call. Just sit back, do nothing and moan when the PIA comes out. Are you going to engage with the PIA process? I am. At length.

What have you actually done to educate people on this issue? What have you done to spread the word about Phorm and its threat to privacy? Please offer your credentials here.

Yes, I did know he was on the 80/20 advisory group thank you very much.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Black Hat organise some of the worlds biggest and most respected security conferences including DEFCON and the Black Hat conference itself. It is not a case of people trying to ignore your view, it is a case of we don't agree with it. You are entitled to have that opinion, but it is not one I agree with, yet you persist in bringing it up time and time again. I find your opinion destructive to the entire process and bound in nothing more than your dislike for 80/20 Thinking. It is not progressive and it doesn't help.

As I said, you are perfectly entitled to that opinion, but you can't expect me to continue to discuss the same points over and over again when I simply don't agree.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm being careful! And the traffic on our BT Beta forums has been falling recently, we need posts there, as the moderators have been locking Webwise threads and if we don't keep the current one (the only one permitted on Websise) up to the top of the thread list by posting, no one is going to see it!

Anyway - just to say that I have now posted my own reactions to those BT management replies to my questions over on BT Beta Forums here
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...ID=18307#18307

And thanks for the clarification about the nature of this forum - I did think it was a VM one so I now sit corrected.

Keep up the good fight people!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good post R Jones

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Kursk, vis-a-vis the jackal, it wasn't his opinions that I disregarded or disliked but the way he put those across in ways that i viewed as deliberately provocative and inflammatory. Sadly I did no better and responded by telling him to shut up.

I am afraid when it comes to Simon Davies, I agree with Alexander. Even if we accept that maybe he could have picked his client more carefully in this instance, you cant just disregard what he has achieved over 20 years of advocacy on privacy and liberties.

Initially I too was very angry with Simon and accused him of a conflict of interest in the comments section of the register. He very politely yet forcefully put his case in response to me and others who questioned him in that regard and I respect him even more for that.

Having gone back and rewatched the video of Simon at the Phorm meeting I remain of the opinion that we should wait for the full video version of the meeting and also for the full PIA before we condemn him for his actions in this. His previous body of work and advocacy surely earn him that right?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As we know via UKCrypto (and my own mail), the ICO seem to have got round to responding to requests for investigations.

Has anyone else here asked the ICO to investigate Phorm and the tie up with the ISPs or the BT secret tests? If they have then have they received a reply from the ICO?

Interested to see how many "cases" the ICO are dealing with on this issue.

It's also interesting how Phorm's PR people have been unusually quiet since the videos went up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Talk about divide and conquer!! If Phorm are monitoring some of these responses, they'll be grinning from ear to ear.

We MUST be united in a common resolve. If there are inflammatory remarks made, I would suggest it would probably be better to PM people than open flame wars?

Keep spreading the word and we will get there in the end, but not by open warfare amongst ourselves.

All I'm saying is think before you post, as there always seems to be more 'guests' than members on this topic.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To quote Bruce Dickinson when Iron Maiden were being messed about by the organisers of Ozzfest, "these colours don't run" (cleaned up some there). Personally I've been online for a very long time and fully intend to continue for a hell of a lot longer.

Any time Phorm appear and start to spin or "clear up misunderstandings" just point them to the public meeting footage at tobymeres.net where Dr Richard Clayton and Alexander speak excellently about why Phorm is illegal. That will wipe any smile off their faces.

For any newcomers to the forum, whether registered or guests, you can see my analysis of the recent public meeting here which also includes Simon Davies' introduction to the proceedings (also at tobymeres.net)

By all means let's have informed discussion and questions from people who rightly want to know more. This is a hot topic, a long thread and issues move quickly. I'm sure the moderators will act to prevent this turning into something one might find in the local goth or science fiction online communities.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That I find your continued ad-hominem attacks offensive and unhelpful is irrelevant.
I requested that you substantiate and reference your expressed opinions in order that other readers could adequately evaluate them.
You are completely free to ignore those requests but I will attempt to highlight that, and I'm sure others will draw their own conclusions.


@Russ - Should you find any of my posts to be in any manner uncivil, please contact me by PM to explain how they detract from the accepted 'rules' of debate and I'll do my best to comply.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am currently just drafting a letter to send to Mcafee regarding Phorm as I have noted that neither Mcafee or Symantec seem to have given any indication as to their thoughts or stance on Phorm/Webwise whereas other industry players have. The Mcafee response, if any, would be interesting to read.

Webwise (YEAH RIGHT!)
 

Dear customer

You may have heard recently that Virgin Media will be working with a company, Phorm, to provide our broadband customers with new online protection and enhanced features. When we were looking at this solution, we had some questions, and you might do too, so we’ve put together the information below to help you understand what it’s all about and how it’ll help to make your internet experience safer, and more relevant to you.

Phorm is the company providing this innovative solution, and it’s called Webwise. Webwise will help provide you with a safer and more relevant online experience by helping you avoid scam emails or websites, as well as making your online experience more relevant through advertising that matches your areas of interest.

A safer experience
Webwise will help you avoid scams, such as ‘phishing’ – this is where someone pretends to be a well known brand, like a bank, but is looking to steal your confidential information. You might receive an email which appears to be authentic, asking you to enter details such as account numbers and passwords, which are then stolen and used fraudulently. Commonly known as ‘phishing’, these websites can be hard to spot as they are designed to look just like genuine websites.

Webwise checks these sites against a regularly updated list of fraudulent sites and warns you if you’re heading to one. You’re given the option to continue to that site or not, so Webwise won’t restrict your online experience in any way, but at least you’ll be able to decide for yourself and avoid this form of identity theft. In this way, Webwise can help to protect your personal information.

A more relevant browsing experience
Another great thing about Webwise is that it can help reduce irrelevant advertising. As you browse web pages, Webwise looks at things like search terms, and learns what topics might be of interest. This is done without collecting any personal information, so once again your privacy is protected. These topics are then used to help some advertisers replace their adverts with ones that might be more relevant to you. Don’t worry, you won’t see any more adverts than you currently do, some of them will just be more relevant. For example if you searched for keywords like “Paris� and “Eurostar�, instead of random uninteresting adverts, you might see an advert for French hotels instead.

Protecting your privacy
Webwise has been designed from the ground up to protect your privacy and anonymity. As the system only learns about topics of interest, it does this anonymously, ensuring your privacy is completely protected.

We found that this system met our high standards for simplicity and privacy – so your privacy is assured. These privacy standards were also verified independently by Ernst & Young who conducted a detailed audit of the whole process and Webwise solution.

As a Virgin Media customer, you won’t be forced to use Webwise, so you’ll be able to keep your internet experience as it is now.

We are currently at the early stages of working to deliver the Webwise solution and will be writing to you nearer the time to advise when the solution will be ‘switched on’ providing more detail of what this will mean to you. Given the benefits of Webwise, we’re pleased to be offering you this service and making your web experience safer and more relevant.

Virgin Media

(********S) :rolleyes:


Questions and answers

What benefits will the customer see?
Webwise automatically increases protection against online fraud, including phishing and identity theft by checking against its continually updated list of known fraudulent and untrustworthy websites. If someone who has switched on Webwise visits any website on the list, they'll receive a warning, so they can choose whether or not to visit that site.

Webwise also personalises online advertising by linking it to customers' interests, based on their anonymous browsing behaviour. For example, if users search for a deal on a car or visited motoring web sites, Webwise would help provide relevant advertising for car deals or insurance. Customers won't see any more adverts than they normally do - some of them will just be more relevant.

Isn’t this just spyware?
Webwise doesn’t record your activities like spyware does, in fact Webwise was designed to help ensure customer privacy.

How is customer privacy assured?
Webwise doesn't capture or store any customers’ personal details, only anonymous information about advertising categories that may be of interest to them. Webwise places a common cookie in web browsers - a small computer code with a unique, randomly generated number on it. With this cookie, Webwise can deliver warnings of potentially dangerous websites and replace some untargeted ads with more relevant ones. This cookie can be deleted at any time.

What information is collected?
We use the website address, keywords and search terms from the page viewed to match a category or area of interest (e.g., travel or finance). After matching, this information is discarded permanently, except the category information. The category information is only associated with a unique, randomly-generated cookie that can be deleted at any time from the browser.

Neither the web addresses, nor search terms you use are stored. They are purely matched to an advertising topic and then permanently discarded.
Webwise doesn’t store your internet (IP) address or keep a history of your browsing. The system or advertisers won’t know who you are or the websites you’ve visited.
No personally-identifiable information such as email addresses, surnames, street addresses, or phone numbers are ever stored.
No sensitive or personal financial information, such as credit card numbers, login IDs, passwords or bank account numbers are ever stored.
Steps are taken to actively ensure details such as credit card numbers, email addresses etc are never captured.
Why has Virgin Media partnered with Phorm?
We are very keen to ensure our customers have a safer online experience, but without blocking access. In this respect Webwise allows us to alert customers that they may be attempting to visit a site known to be fraudulent. Additionally, by providing customers with more relevant advertising, they should be able to find products and services that are more interesting for them.

Will customers be able to decide whether to use the system?
Customers won’t be forced to use the system, and will have the choice to keep their internet experience exactly as it is now. As we get closer to launch we’ll explain how this will work.

(********S):rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Apart from contacting my MP and MEP's, with the general information/concerns, I have now contacted both the NSPCC and Childline, regarding the possibility of mis-directed adverts and the possibilities of data-mining the child's own internet activities.
Both the MP and the MEP's have replied, with the MEP's in particular being quite supportive.
As of yet, I haven't had any information back from the other two, but hopefully they might be concerned.

Colin

---------- Post added at 20:20 ---------- Previous post was at 19:51 ----------

On a slightly different note, a very interesting read from F-Secure here regarding our Kurt's previous incarnations.

Colin

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You need to edit that URL.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Who's Kurt??

Im sure you mean KENT...

BTW, the link dont work, just takes me to cableforum main board..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, his previous phorm is known to many...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And because the professional film hasn't been released & the Q&A session hasn't been published, we don't know if anyone asked these:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Your link just takes me to after a redirect to
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/

Did you mean
http://www.f-secure.com/weblog/archives/00001420.html ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The F-Secure link should be

http://www.f-secure.com/weblog/archives/00001420.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A few minutes ago I took the decision to post to an american health forum I frequent regarding the issue of Phorm as we know that Phorm are in negotiations with AT&T, Comcast & Verizon to roll out webwise or something similar over there.

I doubt what I have done in this instance will have much effect on Phorm at all but given the nature of the sensitive health discussions that take place there I thought I should give them a heads-up warning so that they can consider at the very least changing over to HTTPS. I gave them links to both badphorm and also to the NYTimes article.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have a small sort of 'techie' question. I have blocked cookies on FF for every variation of Phorm and Webwise including OIX I can think of in .com and .net, inside out and upside down (so to speak). I don't seem to be able to do that in IE. I can block cookies for the very basic s of the names but not f'rinstance with www. prefixes or with bt.webwise combinations. Any answers gratefully accepted.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have told the members of a UK based arthritis charity forum that I'm a member of, and I've also informed the HQ as to the implications the Phorm technology could have. I'm worried that despite the fact you have to be a member to use the forum, once you're logged in Phorm would be able to see everything.

Last week I wrote to all 3 leaders of the main political parties and so far I've only had a reply from David Cameron's office. I'll keep you posted on any other replies I get from the other people/organisations I have written to.

---------- Post added at 21:04 ---------- Previous post was at 20:59 ----------

I don't know if this site might help Bobcat, but it may be worth a look

http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/cookies.htm

Also has a nice bit of info on adware cookies too,

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Many Ta's Ravenheart. Very useful and informative.
Sorry to hear you've got "arthur" too.
Chris.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That makes 3 of us then. I have Ankylosing Spondylitis which is a kind of arthritis.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The site with the IE7 cookie info also has an interesting section on the hosts file including an updated downloadable file.

http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry to ask, been searching through this thread but can't find any....has anybody got the links for letter templates to send to local MP's.

Many thanks

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To Any BT Users on this Forum.
How do you know if you've been blocked on the BT Webwise Discussion Forum? I have had no notice from Mark W but altho' I can sign in to my ordinary BT (phone) account I cannot sign in to the forum. If I sign in to my ordinary account and then go to the forum I still cannot post or look at my settings as I'm asked to sign in again and again am rejected. Not dejected but rather annoyed.
Chris.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The hosts file there is rather useful :) That and Adblock Plus sure makes a positive difference to the "internet experience".

As always, do make sure you have backups of any files you might edit.

---------- Post added at 22:08 ---------- Previous post was at 22:07 ----------

There's an example of a letter I sent to MPs and peers on 4th April at http://thesection.pwp.blueyonder.co....en_letter.html

Things have moved on a bit since then but it should provide a good stating point.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

First off, let me say that as far as I am concerned this is an adult discussion in which different people have different views. I'm simply expressing mine. I don't expect a reply of anybody who does not wish to offer it and certainly don't want a flame war (especially with those with whom I share a view) but I do feel a forum is a place for discussion. Therefore:


You have no idea what I have done, am doing or intend to do, so please, no rash presumptions on the basis of no information. Nor do I propose to publish anything for reasons that should be obvious.


Thank you for your opinion. In this instance, I disagree with yours. My posts are just a viewpoint. Please don't feel obliged to comment unless it interests you.


As far as I could see, The Jackal expressed a view that may have been helpful. It is a shame that he was rounded upon. As for Simon Davies, I do not know the man. He seems decent enough but I don't know enough to draw the conclusions that you have.

I don't think so. The twists and turns of every debate are its strength.


Hopefully, or I'm wasting my time.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ouch. Bad luck. My rheumatoid arthritis is one of the main reasons I am now semi-retired ( that and my laziness in my old age has made me an expert delegater ;))

My father also has Ankylosing spondylitis which is now taking a toll on him. It concerns me not just for him but for myself too given it's genetic disposition. Ah well, ces't la vie. Good luck with yours.

I noticed Alexander's comments a few pages back regarding his new website venture and I'll be contacting him privately for a brief regarding the graphics of the site and hope that I might be of some help as I know my way around a couple of graphics programs.

http://zootcadillac.deviantart.com/

also I'll touch briefly on the 'divide' some people are seeing. Firstly I don't see it as a problem if there is a divide in opinion, that's how debate works. However some people have an issue with moving on and that might be good advice here. Also some people just like to argue. I'm one of those sorts but being inflammatory for the sake of proving your opinion is king of the playground serves no purpose.

However it pans out be assured that people from Phorm or their representatives looking in will not care that a few of us are not seeing eye to eye on certain ( and in some cases moot ) points, it really is not that big a deal. It's not the end of the world. just not good etiquette.

regards

Craig

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It is looking like the debate is breaking down into 80/20 role, or if Simon is the big bad, or Shining knight.

This is not the issue, and frankly I do not care one bit if simon is unbiased and independent, the pay of Kent, or even his back pocket.

What I do care about is the **** that is Phorm, and at the moment they have managed to divide the discussion away from what really matters.

As for my view on 80/20 - they could be working for us on this, being on the inside gives them a better position then anybody on this message board to see the truth behind the system.

Most internet users will just will see the smoke and mirrors that Kent and the many PR people are spreading around the net.

The best weapon we have is knowledge, and the PIA will provide us all with that weapon.

Phorm are showing some cracks, the PR people are backing off the forums, the tactics are changing and they are becoming desperate repeating the same junk in investment forums.

So lets stop the disagreement , kiss and make up an head off to fight Phorm refreshed in the Knowledge we are right.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is no divide as far as I'm concerned. My view is the same as it was 6 weeks ago. However, if contrary opinion is considered divisive and not an opportunity to think laterally, I'll just keep me gob shut :dunce:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've got to say that I had trouble getting my head around Simon Davies' "hang on I'll change me hat" posts in this thread. Maybe it was his writing style but to me he was starting to come across as slippery as Kent! With Simon's reputation I'd consider product appraisal requests from the likes of Phorm to be an attempt to discredit me publicly!

Just how it seemed to me

Something not quite right there - so much so that I read back a few pages of posts to see if there was something I'd missed...

Sorry - I'll get me coat

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

my personal view of Simon Davies is that he has been used and spun.

His past record is amazing, even standing up to the fools at BA and stopping the fingerprinting of passengers in its tracks.

Somebody had to do the PIA. And I think that if Simon Davies had not taken the role then somebody else would have, and that someone would not have had the the same track record that simon has.

The hat business was very confusing I agree.
---------------
Now if I was doing the assessment I would be going along the lines

This product has problems it has xyz wrong with it.

lets try and fix the problems, and make it comply with all laws

the problems are very complex lets change some things and see if we can make this work

unfortunately this product can never be made to comply with the UK / European law.

publish a report stating that the product is illegal.
--------------

Just my take on things. However I somehow doubt that a man of Simons past integrity and fights for privacy has suddenly thrown a lifetime of work and beliefs away, and accepted the Phorm spin.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I run a number of web sites, I am going to move them to a secure Server, so that I can Block BT and if necessary Block all of Virgin Media & Talk Talk customers as well, as Blocking All of BT customers!

I am sorry BT customers, but BT have left me with no alternative.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry to read about your RA and your fathers AS. If either of you is suffering badly you may want to speak to a rheumatologist about anti-tnf treatment. Its difficult to get funding for it in this country but it can make a world of difference. I know as I am one of the lucky few ;)

This does lead on to one issue regarding Phorm too. Phorm claim that will be ignoring sensitive medical information but how are they going to achieve this? Some kind of blacklist of medical conditions or medical websites and forums? Does anyone who went to the meeting know if that issue was dealt with or explained further in the Q & A session?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yep another fully paid up member of the OA and Morphine club,shame about the anagram I to do a lot of medical info exchanging although my working life has finnished I still want my private life kept private.have been told to stay calm after my blow up with the BT mods,so doing a little bit of following and support.
TL-S

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My interpretation of things is (please someone educate me if I am incorrect) that when Phorm said no medical data is used, I think that was regards to their advertising channels. It will still be likely that medical terms and such will still go through the profiler, but they will not match up with any commercial categories and thus serve no targetted ads.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Pretty much yeah.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm guessing that Kent won't be accepting any advertisers in the healthcare fields into the OIX network, rather than blocking keywords in customer's browsing habits. Same with the adult and gambling industries.

However, those three advertising groups are some of the most aggressive when it comes to promoting their products. So it may all be a matter of them paying the right price. Cynical, I know, but this whole situation revolves around money in the first place.

EDIT / JackSon said it first and better. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As the technology has never before been the subject of a PIA wouldn't a truely accurate Privacy Impact Assessment require the product being run in a live environment so that scenarios could be created and system response observed?

Or is it just theory based - as in "what if" along the lines of Risk Assessment?

Is there a Phorm/Webwise trial currently in progress?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Its perfectly possible to run in simulation to a reasonable degree of accuracy to be able to run a PIA on what a system says its meant to do and various scenarios based on that.

Unfortunately I doubt you will get in a PIA what a system could do with a few software tweaks, as in this case is possible. I expect the PIA to cover what the system will do initially. This current state is bad enough but the possibilites as stated by Phorm themselves are almost mind boggling.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

According to BT you can tell them the site names and ask them to be added to Phorm/Webwise block list and they won't visit you. that's what they told me when I informed them they did not have consent to visit my websites.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm guessing the websites are illegal in a way?

Because if so you'd be destroying your userbase by banning them from the websites.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No. You can see a list of them Here.

Yes I will be losing a number of users, but watt can I do but ban all of them, because I don't trust BT to do the right thing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's an unwarranted slur.

It strikes me that this could be a good way of putting pressure on the ISPs. I know Google aren't going to actually block an entire ISPs users but even if they were to threaten it it would be headline news.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Even better, if BT's policy of allowing web sites to opt out of having their traffic phormed continues after the trials, I would hope Google would be one of the first to do so - blowing a huge hole in Phorm's business plan.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Will you be opting out of the Virgin Ad Deal? = Yes, Definitely. :mad:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Who do I contact at BT to have my sites excluded?

I do not want my sites being used to profit anybody. I do not have and never will have adverts on my site. I do not want Phorm to profit by profiling my work and and using it for profit.

Thanks

col

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There has to my knowledge been two trials however they were illegal and it would appear that they served no other purpose other that finding that webwise has issues that to date have not been addressed,

On a sub issue why would people who have been illegally included in a trial by their ISP and a known spyware Company believe anything they say they will not do, use, look at or process.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Do you think 'they' would tell us if there was?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wonder where the PR people are these days? We can be sure that those involved won't be sitting on their thumbs; the stakes are too high. Incidentally, did anyone else have trouble accessing the forum recently? Was the forum down temporarily?