Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

This is the thing though the chances of you catching Coronavirus (right now) are extremely small. The emergency brake has been applied. The R number is around, just above or or just below one, so statistically those small number of people will infect one other in the course of their infection. That’s not likely to be you.

Wandering round a shop, even if you got close to one other person who had the virus, chances are you wouldn’t be close enough for long enough.

Where and when this turns on it’s head is offices opening up, and tens of thousands of commuters travelling in and out of major cities. Suddenly lots of people in air conditioned environments and on public transport are infecting each other and your chances of bumping into a few folk with the virus in Waitrose improves.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

Don’t worry - it will be a reassuringly superior quality virus.

As they say "You can taste when it’s Waitrose & Partners’ coronavirus"... :D

Re: Coronavirus
 

But surely, the measures in place will only succeed in dragging this out even longer. In that time, the virus could mutate and we start over.

Only an effective vaccine will resolve the problem.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

A mask won't stop you getting it, Maggy. At least that's what the scientists say.

It will make you feel more secure, though.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Masks are said to stop you passing on the virus if it turns out that you have it (which you might not ever be aware of).

Re: Coronavirus
 

And if everyone is wearing a mask surely that cancels everyone out.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52945210

Re: Coronavirus
 

Some have been calling for masks since the beginning of this. It is not a guarantee but it will reduce the spread and hopefully keep the r low.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It still says "... should be worn in public where social distancing is not possible", so not general use.

Re: Coronavirus
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53060529

The other sad impact of this pandemic.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Wearing a mask steams up your spectacles, which is highly dangerous if you fall down an opened manhole!

Re: Coronavirus
 

The first effective treatment for COVID has been found by a U.K research team: https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-12007880

An already available drug as well, so easy to roll out.

Stuff like this is why it's better to get this virus later than now, there will be more such advancements to come.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Unless it mutates. Incidentally, we cannot afford another lockdown, so sooner rather than later.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I still think we Should give bleach a try.

Re: Coronavirus
 

We can't afford not to lockdown if the situation deteriorates. The public politically won't tolerate hundreds of thousands of deaths where other countries have successfully suppressed the virus and have sports stadiums open, let alone the NHS be able to cope with the circumstances that were projected when we went into lockdown the first time.

Incidentally, 'if it mutates' can equally apply to a vaccine. Why perform healthcare at all if we decide to live by the worst case scenario all the time?

Re: Coronavirus
 

It’s a simple anti-inflammatory drug. It’s effective because it treats the symptoms that are frequently implicated in fatal cases. “Unless it mutates” may sound like a knowledgeable riposte in your ears, but it isn’t, because mutations are primarily a concern for their ability to render vaccines ineffective, not symptomatic treatments.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

That is it exactly as explained here.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Then you are not fitting it properly. The bridge wire should be pinched tight to prevent upwards leaks.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Can't do that if its the simple cloth masks recommended

https://www.who.int/images/default-s...rsn=b15e3742_1

Re: Coronavirus
 

I think you may be confusing real life with a Roadrunner cartoon... ;)

https://media.tenor.com/images/404fb...402b/tenor.gif

Re: Coronavirus
 

How to stop your glasses from fogging up while wearing a mask


https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...wearing-a-mask

Re: Coronavirus
 

Interesting when the banks ever open again and you walk in wearing a mask!

Re: Coronavirus
 

The public will not support another lockdown and the economy cannot withstand it.

To avoid mutation, the virus needs to get through the population quickly. We might think we have been oh, so clever slowing this down, but fhe danger in doing so is that we may be laughing on the other side of our faces soon.

Nature may well have the last laugh. But hopefully, not.

Re: Coronavirus
 

What do you base this on, please?

Re: Coronavirus
 

If anything the more it spreads the more it has a chance to mutate.....

Re: Coronavirus
 

I'm pretty sure its chances of mutation are low, and random.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Certainly into something more lethal anyway. Viruses mutate all the time, this one would have mutated loads of times too - there are already many strains of it. It's just most of the time as you say they're random and also don't have a difference.

If there ever was a significant mutation it's likely to make it weaker. A virus which is less likely to kill someone, less likely to make them seriously ill or even better less likely to even give bad symptoms is much more likely to spread than one which is more deadly.

Re: Coronavirus
 

There’s no evidence to support either of these points, and economies who are taking no real action against the virus are also suffering - namely the USA and Sweden.

You are, once again, under the false illusion that we simply open everything up and return to economic growth. This is far from true - fledgling businesses will not be sustainable where demand is suppressed by a deadly virus doing the rounds. Unemployment rises, more people decide to save for a rainy day in case they hit hard times due to the virus, the cycle continues.

Household budget economics cannot save it’s way out of this one with more austerity.

You are assuming that a mutation makes the virus worse.

The countries that suppress the virus successfully will have the last laugh with the greatest economic growth. Countries who let it go would have years of economic hardship and a prolonged recession - and no guarantee of success as it gives the virus greater time, and more hosts, to mutate in.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Based on what fairytale evidence?

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's far from fairlytale evidence pip. It stands to reason - countries that can operate their economies normally will get close to pre-Covid levels, quicker.

It's taken 4-5 months to get to antibody levels about 14% in the population. Getting to herd immunity levels o 60-80% means managing the flow for something in the region of 20 months. 20 months of less people going out, less tourism, more working from home - all of which increases unemployment from reduced demand in the economy.

The fairytale is the idea we ease restrictions and everything returns no normal. It's flawed classical economics - "if you build it they will come". Demand needs to be stimulated from somewhere - during a pandemic the question is where from?

Re: Coronavirus
 

More than 1300 mutated forms have been found in the UK alone, with the majority coming from Italy, Spain and France.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I doubt anything will get back to normal..People are already struggling financially and it's only going to get worse. It's not going to be a situation that we can spend our way out of.

Re: Coronavirus
 

When the furlough scheme ends the crap will hit the fan, i see mass unemployment for the foreseeable future:(

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

On that papa l concur fully with you.:(

Re: Coronavirus
 

And that's the thing - Government pays either way. Ending furlough isn't a magic bullet for the public purse.

It's a choice between paying more, for a shorter period of time and getting the virus under control. Or paying out less over a longer period of time with a later and slower economic recovery as by then the factors causing the economic downturn become entrenched.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

I'm not necessarily saying it will make the virus worse, although of course, it could do. What I was getting at was that it may make any vaccine ineffective, and so the prospect of future lockdowns would go on and on.

---------- Post added at 09:32 ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 ----------

Science.

---------- Post added at 09:37 ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 ----------

No, you are fixated on the need for a lockdown. This is indeed wrecking economies.

A much more sensible approach is to protect the vulnerable and at risk groups, and let the virus run free through the rest of the population. That's what we should have done in the first place, and I think with hindsight, politicians have started to grasp this - the sensible, thinking ones, that is.

---------- Post added at 09:40 ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 ----------

It will. It is hard to believe that there are people out there wanting to continue the lockdown for weeks on end because it gets them off work with the money still coming in. They don't seem to be giving any thought to whether they will still have a job if this continues.

---------- Post added at 09:43 ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 ----------

That balance sheet of yours appears to be most unbalanced! Thank God you are not our Chancellor of the Exchequer! :p:

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

It may not be common but we have contacts earning more on furlough than normal because it's based on last years income and this year (before lockdown) was lower (that is 80% of last year is higher that 100% of this year). But it is true, we can't keep paying people for doing nothing.

It's hard to see any quick way out. Even if government removed all restrictions some public are still too scared to go out (I even saw people wearing masks in own cars). Waitrose has restricted numbers entering because their feedback said it was too crowded.

I like Wagamama and like the way they work on benches, sharing space but can't see that working anytime soon. And if restaurants have to maintain long distances many can't work.

I do agree with the points made earlier that we are moving to a phase to protect the vulnerable and loosen the reins elsewhere. Maybe provide for local/regional variance other than Wales/Scotland/NI so local flareups can be brought under control but a difference in the UK is that we are a small island with large population and a population that won't stand for the measures used in some Asian nations.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It’s not sustainable forever, however there’s no reason for it not to be sustainable in the shorter term. Someone taken off furlough with no job to go back to goes on benefits still costs the taxpayer, gets council tax benefit, rent/mortgage interest paid and has less money to spend in the economy - impacting the demand side of the economy. If they had a job to go back to they’d remain a net taxpayer in the longer term.

The economy is on life support but removing furlough and other protections is switching off the machine and hoping for a miracle.

Easing restrictions doesn’t necessarily equate to all of these businesses suddenly becoming viable in the absence of consumer confidence. We should focus less on what we perceive as making us different from the rest of the world and recognise that, in the face of the virus, we are all fundamentally the same.

---------- Post added at 11:32 ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 ----------

I can only speak from personal experience I’m working from home on 100% of my salary and saving about two thirds of it each month. Before Covid-19 I was much more active in the economy - going out for meals, after work drinks, cinema, football matches etc. and making more modest savings.

I’m likely to have the ability to work from home well into next year and if the virus is prevalent in my local community (or the city to which I used to regularly commute) I’m unlikely to start spending as much again. There’s likely to be hundreds of thousands, if not millions, working from home in a similar boat - spending less and not going to until they feel it’s safe to do so (either for personal health or job security reasons).

That impacts on every service sector, hospitality, retail, etc. going forward.

Fundamentally the whole economy needs restructured to rebalance the gains of the Amazons of this world with the costs to bread and butter local businesses hit hardest. This is the bitterest pill to swallow for “small c” conservatives who see no role for the state and uninhibited free markets as the answer. If they are the answer - the question most definitely isn’t how to we respond to Coronavirus.

Re: Coronavirus
 

What science was the quicker a virus moves through a population the less likely it is to mutate? Surely the more it reproduces the faster it can mutate.

Re: Coronavirus
 

The figures came with no real information of changes to the severity of illness each produces, nor does it measure whether each is more, or less, infectious.

But it is common for a virus strain to become more infectious, but less lethal over time. However, the sudden resurgence of one mutation in Beijing is showing it to be more infectious and possibly more lethal. Such details take time to assert, and also depends on the country being willing to publish reliable data.

---------- Post added at 12:56 ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 ----------

I was trained NOT to remove a mask unless I could immediately wash my hands afterwards. I was also trained to NOT wear gloves unless in a Nuclear, Bacteriological or Chemical contaminated environment.

To this end I carry a squeezy bottle of diluted soap, and wash my hands and the bottle itself before getting my car keys out for the return journey. I also keep my limbs covered, and remove at least the jacket and place it in the boot with the shopping. The jacket then stays there for several day until I need it again. I also remove my footwear before entering the home, leaving them soles-up to maximise decontamination.

I could do far more, but paranoia isn't that productive at this present time.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

We've phrased it differently but we aren't a million miles apart on the point. Yes, successful businesses need to pay their share. However, the tax system is currently balanced against businesses with a presence in each and every community employing local people, encouraging people to spend in their local high street and that promote local jobs.

Those drive money round and through the Exchequer multiples times over.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Looks like the contact tracing app has been delayed 'until the winter'.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Can we be surprised?.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Not by this Govt's continuing incompetence Den. At least they're consistent.....

Re: Coronavirus
 

Rafael Behr summed it up well today "When the qualification for joining the government is loyalty to bad ideas, it is no surprise that Britain is badly governed."
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...e_iOSApp_Other

But I think it is important to get the app right before launching it as people, won't give it a second chance. I'm not sure how France and Germany are progressing with theirs, but they would be the obvious countries to benchmark us to before judging our performance here.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well you don’t need any qualifications or experience to become an MP, so why be surprised when you have a Parliament full of idiots.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Well, quite. However this Government has essentially filtered out anyone who wanted to remain in the EU, regardless of the fact that some could have remained competent Ministers leading Departments in a range of policy areas where they needn’t have felt compromised.

Indeed, I’m sure many Ministers of many Governments (both sides) of the past have ploughed through and implemented manifesto commitments they may not have personally agreed with.

The poison of the Brexit debate isn’t exclusively for internet forums, it would appear.

Re: Coronavirus
 

They all seem to come from a humanities background so when it comes to questions of history, philosophy, economics and political theory they're probably all pretty good.

It's anything else they seem to struggle on. Especially science and technology. It reminds me of the encryption debate where they kept saying they wanted the most secure encryption to protect us but with exceptions for police. And kept arguing as if this a concession that can be made. It's just not in their mindset that you can't just argue a technological concept into something else.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Sadly, infections are not decreasing in the US. We need every country to be in a good position so that travel can be resumed. A set back in such a key country impacts the entire world.
https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status...60497094144000

Re: Coronavirus
 

The problem there was that ministers with remain tendencies were stalling where it wasn't needed to try to keep us in the EU. If they focussed on their brief they may have remained in office.

Re: Coronavirus
 

That's how I see it too, they backed the wrong horse and lost their stake ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Nope. There was a very strict inclusion criteria to join Johnson's government. This made the talent pool far smaller than usual for a government with predictable results. Be it Dominic Raab thinking that taking the knee came from Game of Thrones or the culture secretary Oliver Dowden phoning Google about the Churchill photo removal this is not the A Team by any stretch of the imagination.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Gosh . . oh lordy lordy . . you don't mean he wanted to surround himself with 'yes' men do you?

I'm gobsmacked that any political group or business would have the audacity to do that :p:

Re: Coronavirus
 

Thatcher didn't do that

Quote from Norman Fowler

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...2&d=1592479267

And Blair was the same - he and Brown didn't get on, but they worked together.

When I managed large departments, it was important to have colleagues that would challenge you (in a positive "how can we fix this" way) - if a manager doesn't accept constructive critiques, they are doomed to failure.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

I wish Boris would exchange them for some of the hapless souls disgracing the front benches then! A Foreign Secretary who didn't know the importance of the Dover-Calais route and thinks that taking the knee is derived from Game of Throwns is ill-suited to such a pivotal role.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It's official: https://twitter.com/ruskin147/status...92249755021314

Looks like it will be ready for winter....

Re: Coronavirus
 

So why did they not heed the advice that they were given in the first place as they must have been the only ones who though their own contact tracing app would be a success.

Re: Coronavirus
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53095336

It really is stupid and so much time wasted.

Re: Coronavirus
 

https://media2.giphy.com/media/oxLsW...&rid=giphy.gif

Re: Coronavirus
 

So much for that world class contact tracing app.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Let's see what the Government states as the reason.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Bad reporting It’s not a "limitation", it’s designed as a security feature, enhancing privacy.

Re: Coronavirus
 

It looks like British exceptionalism to me, Den.

---------- Post added at 15:25 ---------- Previous post was at 15:24 ----------

For time wasted, read lives lost

Re: Coronavirus
 

They need to asked some serious questions here. This was not an unforeseen problem. This level of incompetence is absurd given the situation.

Re: Coronavirus
 

I would say they are trying their best but actually I'm sceptical about that...

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

According to Wired magazine, development of the app is being handled by NHSX, who are working with VMware Pivotal Labs, developers from Zuhlke, the NHS Business Services Authority and the National Cyber Security Centre (NCSC).

I’m stunned the Project Team haven’t escalated the delays/risks/issues to the Programme Board before now.

Re: Coronavirus
 

"British exceptionalism"?:confused: When so many OTHER countries used or tried to use, the SAME approach, eg Germany, France, Norway, Australia, India, Singapore. The much lauded South Korean one goes even further.
From 22nd April

Re: Coronavirus
 

The South Korean one works though, before winter.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Corona virus is over now anyway.......isn’t it?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Yep over everything you touch if you listen to the hype ;)

Re: Coronavirus
 

Define "works". Is there that much evidence that it does? They use all sorts of info, that the whiners say shouldn't be used.
How much use is an app that simply says that somebody with the virus was in the same building as you? Their main reliance was on questioning the people concerned.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Let's face it they probably did but were ignored.

---------- Post added at 19:03 ---------- Previous post was at 19:00 ----------

Early May:

Today: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53095336

Utter joke these charlatans get away with it time and time again. Completely Shameless.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Why don’t we just base ours on the Italian App, which has been out for a couple of weeks, or the German App which has had 7 million downloads in one day?

https://9to5mac.com/2020/06/12/conta...app-downloads/

https://www.thelocal.de/20200617/new...ds-in-24-hours

Re: Coronavirus
 

Probably because 70% of the population are unable to understand either German or Italian? ;) :D

Re: Coronavirus
 

Nomadking you are behaving like someone who believes the earth is flat, denying clear and observable fact.

I ask once more what's the threshold at which you will consider, even for a moment, that this Government has handled anything badly?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Entschuldigen sie bitte,Ich nicht verstehen... :D

Re: Coronavirus
 

So the whiners haven't criticised the South Korean approach, or the MANY other countries that decided on a centralised system?
South Korea May 22nd

So it was the Police that provided the data, not their track and trace system.


Some of us do the research, which is how I can include so many quotes.

Re: Coronavirus
 

How many deaths Nomadking? How many before you accept it could have gone better?

Yes you research I commend you for that. Research obfuscation.

Would you prefer we found people with the virus or let them loose to cause havoc in economic and health terms?

Re: Coronavirus
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53099785

Comrade Sunak, and European counterparts, on point here. A welcome step.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Jimmy Wale, founder of Wikipedia has said the very same thoughts:
https://twitter.com/jimmy_wales/stat...40187163852801

Re: Coronavirus
 

In positive news (unless you are a mouse) a mouse model has been developed for COVID19. Mice naturally aren't a very good model as they don't develop symptoms so we can't be sure if treatments tried on mice are really reliable so Washington University have engineered a strain of mouse to get the disease.

This will really help with drug and vaccine research

Link - https://www.worldpharmanews.com/rese...drugs-vaccines

Re: Coronavirus
 

Beware of the mice. I read somewhere that they run everything. They're just using the Earth as organic computer to work out to answer to the ultimate life, universe and everything question. Fact.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

Public debt has now exceeded GDP for the first time since 1963.* However, one think tank (IFS) says it's not a significant worry as the debt's purpose was for economic recovery.
https://www.ft.com/content/57974640-...b-32f34825f13e

*For those of you interested, the Prime Ministers at the time were Sir Alec Douglas-Home (1963-1964) and Harold Macmillan (1957-1963) both Conservative.

Re: Coronavirus
 

You do have to wonder where it all went...

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

But the Liberal and the Labour Parties were not in power in 1963 or 2020 so why should I mention them?

Re: Coronavirus
 

Re: Coronavirus
 

Update - just found out it’s already available in English.

Re: Coronavirus
 

In his defence though, it's perhaps illustrative of how modern Conservatism - post financialisation - varies from its predecessors. The privatisation of the profitable parts of the state (essentially bringing forward profits into a one off windfall) has caused a fundamental rethink of the role and purpose of the state.

Of course the fear now is that Coronavirus shows up that there's certain things the state should do.

Re: Coronavirus
 

Good job you didn't pick Norway too ;)

Norway suspends virus-tracing app due to privacy concerns

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ivacy-concerns