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1andrew1 14-09-2020 23:09
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
From Have I got News for You:

BREAKING: The law :D

Mick 14-09-2020 23:27
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050188)
It's been a tough night for you, Mick, with BoJo losing a debate to a Labour has-been ,so I'll try and be gentle. ;) The EU doesn't expect anything that the UK hasn't requested of it. I think you're referring to the Withdrawal Agreement, which the UK requested, not the EU.
He didn’t lose that debate, his bill sailed through comfortably. Miliband failed in his bid to win enough Tory MPs to back him.

It’s been a wonderful night for me actually. Large Tory Majority, made Boris win (again) no more Parliamentary shenanigans from the continuity Remainers.

Mad Max 14-09-2020 23:28
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Ed Miliband: "He can't blame [Theresa May]. He can't blame John Major. He can't blame the judges... There's only one person responsible for it and that's him. This is his deal. It's his mess. It's his failure."
Anyone who listens to that knob is one slice short of a full loaf!

1andrew1 14-09-2020 23:43
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max (Post 36050193)
Anyone who listens to that knob is one slice short of a full loaf!
Objectively it was up there with Maggie's speech when she said "You turn if you want to, the lady's not for turning." Not a speech you'd hear from today's PM. ;)

Hugh 15-09-2020 00:09
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36050175)
:confused: It's the EU insisting we be treated as if we were still a member and have to follow EU rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36050180)
I wish I'd got in with that one!
It’s the EU insisting if we want to trade with them, we have to follow EU rules.

nomadking 15-09-2020 00:21
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36050199)
It’s the EU insisting if we want to trade with them, we have to follow EU rules.
Not rules that only apply within the UK. Products sold in the EU, indeed have to follow EU rules, but that goes for everybody on the planet, regardless of whether a trade deal is involved.
The EU pre-condition for a trade deal is FISHING. When the Political Declaration says that fishing is to be a separate agreement, as it is with every other country the EU has a trade deal with.
Recent Barnier speech.

Quote:
Without a long-term, fair and sustainable solution on fisheries, there will simply be no new economic partnership with the UK.

Sephiroth 15-09-2020 07:54
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050195)
Objectively it was up there with Maggie's speech when she said "You turn if you want to, the lady's not for turning." Not a speech you'd hear from today's PM. ;)
I agree. Knob though he be, Miliband's speech was more impressive than Boris's. However, as with all the opposition speakers, it would have been a winner if it contained the truth.

The Bill, if enacted, does not break international law. He and the others well know that.

The real pity is that Boris failed to see what bringing this in now would do, in particular provide a cause for the "righteous" hypocrites to slag the UK off in Parliament.

1andrew1 15-09-2020 10:24
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36050204)
I agree. Knob though he be, Miliband's speech was more impressive than Boris's. However, as with all the opposition speakers, it would have been a winner if it contained the truth.

The Bill, if enacted, does not break international law. He and the others well know that.

The real pity is that Boris failed to see what bringing this in now would do, in particular provide a cause for the "righteous" hypocrites to slag the UK off in Parliament.
I think being PM turned out to be a step too far for Boris. His personality works well in a more figurehead position such as London Mayor when he was at his finest, particularly during the Olympics He just doesn't seem to be enjoying the job. Of course, I appreciate that this could be said for every PM managing through the Covid crisis but the fire in his stomach just seems to have died out. The drop in performance was shown last night when a has-been Labour leader outperformed him so effectively.

(I obviously disagree with you as the government itself and all living PMs bar BoJo acknowledge it will break international law. There is also a difference in criticising a government and criticising the UK - they are two different things.)

---------- Post added at 10:24 ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36050200)
Not rules that only apply within the UK. Products sold in the EU, indeed have to follow EU rules, but that goes for everybody on the planet, regardless of whether a trade deal is involved.
The EU pre-condition for a trade deal is FISHING. When the Political Declaration says that fishing is to be a separate agreement, as it is with every other country the EU has a trade deal with.
Recent Barnier speech.
It makes sense to negotiate a a deal on EU fishing in UK waters in return for access to EU fish markets, where most of the fish we catch go. A win-win for both sides.
Obviously, such deals are not relevant to more distant countries like Canada whose waters EU fishermen do not fish in. In trade deals, as you will learn, parties may bring to the table areas they may wish to include in a deal like fishing rights.

Sephiroth 15-09-2020 10:59
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
@Andrew

On the fishing matter, it is one thing to negotiate something that can work for both sides. Quite another when the EU is demanding status quo as a precondition for any trade deal. We cannot allow ourselves to be walked over like that - especially when they want the fish so badly.


nomadking 15-09-2020 11:12
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050211)
I think being PM turned out to be a step too far for Boris. His personality works well in a more figurehead position such as London Mayor when he was at his finest, particularly during the Olympics He just doesn't seem to be enjoying the job. Of course, I appreciate that this could be said for every PM managing through the Covid crisis but the fire in his stomach just seems to have died out. The drop in performance was shown last night when a has-been Labour leader outperformed him so effectively.

(I obviously disagree with you as the government itself and all living PMs bar BoJo acknowledge it will break international law. There is also a difference in criticising a government and criticising the UK - they are two different things.)

---------- Post added at 10:24 ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 ----------


It makes sense to negotiate a a deal on EU fishing in UK waters in return for access to EU fish markets, where most of the fish we catch go. A win-win for both sides.
Obviously, such deals are not relevant to more distant countries like Canada whose waters EU fishermen do not fish in. In trade deals, as you will learn, parties may bring to the table areas they may wish to include in a deal like fishing rights.
But NOT as a pre-condition for even discussion on a trade deal. They are DEMANDING automatic full rights and CONTROL with the EU setting quotas etc. The EU has fishing agreements with other countries, but NOWHERE do they claim COMPLETE control and unfettered access.:rolleyes:
Bilateral agreements with countries outside the EU
Quote:
The EU has 2 types of fishing agreements with non-EU countries
  • sustainable fisheries partnership agreements (SFPAs) – the EU gives financial and technical support in exchange for fishing rights, generally with southern partner countries
  • northern agreements – joint management of shared stocks with Norway, Iceland and the Faeroe Islands
Link
Quote:
The North East Atlantic Fisheries Commission (NEAFC) is the Regional Fisheries Management Organisation (RFMO) for the North East Atlantic, one of the most abundant fishing areas in the world. The area covered by the NEAFC Convention stretches from the southern tip of Greenland, east to the Barents Sea, and south to Portugal.
As I've previously pointed out, it needs to be trade agreement FIRST, then fishing. Otherwise EU boats could catch fish in UK waters and sell them tariff free in the EU, whereas UK boats wouldn't be tariff free. That's NOT a "level playing field" and isn't "fair".
Recent Barnier speech
Quote:
Without a long-term, fair and sustainable solution on fisheries, there will simply be no new economic partnership with the UK.
...
On all these issues, we are simply asking to translate the political engagements taken in the Political Declaration into a legal text.
From the Political Declaration
Quote:
71. The Parties should cooperate bilaterally and internationally to ensure fishing at sustainable
levels, promote resource conservation, and foster a clean, healthy and productive marine
environment, noting that the United Kingdom will be an independent coastal state.
72. While preserving regulatory autonomy, the Parties should cooperate on the development of
measures for the conservation, rational management and regulation of fisheries, in a nondiscriminatory
manner. They will work closely with other coastal states and in international
fora, including to manage shared stocks.
73. Within the context of the overall economic partnership the Parties should establish a new
fisheries agreement on, inter alia, access to waters and quota shares.
Trade deal FIRST, then discussions on fishing. The EU is ditching "good faith" for the unnecessary pre-condition of fishing rights. If the EU was that bothered on reaching a deal on ANYTHING, then they would get the trade deal out of the way, and THEN start on fishing, and it would likely have all been in place by the end of this year.

EU conditions.
Quote:
The UK and EU should uphold existing reciprocal access, stable quota shares (which can only be adjusted with the consent of both parties) and set either annual or multi-annual total allowable catches.
Partnership should reflect ‘continued responsible fisheries’ in line with principles of EU law, in particular those underpinning the Common Fisheries Policy.
Access to waters and quota shares will affect other aspects of the economic relationship, in particular the extent to which the UK and EU can agree tariff-free and quota-free trade in goods.
By requiring consent by both parties, that is yet another "unless and until" condition. IE The UK is UNABLE to change the previous EU based system "unless and until" the EU agrees. We lose any sort of control.

UK position
Quote:
Any agreement must reflect the fact that the UK is to become an independent coastal state. The UK wishes to open up annual negotiations on fishing quotas and access and would not accept the ‘relative stability’ mechanism under the Common Fisheries Policy. It would favour a zonal attachment, which is the basis for Norway’s fisheries agreement. Any EU vessel granted access to UK waters would have to abide by UK rules. The UK will work with the EU to ensure fishing sustainability.
Both parties should share vessel monitoring data.
What is wrong with that, especially as it's the same sort of agreement the EU already has with other coastal non-EU states.

1andrew1 15-09-2020 11:17
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36050215)
@Andrew

On the fishing matter, it is one thing to negotiate something that can work for both sides. Quite another when the EU is demanding status quo as a precondition for any trade deal. We cannot allow ourselves to be walked over like that - especially when they want the fish so badly.

In terms of levers, I suspect the French fishermen and their ability to blockade the port of Calais has put this on the negotiating table. It's something we should be able to come to a deal on though - say a phased withdrawal from British waters.

Chris 15-09-2020 11:22
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36050216)

UK position
What is wrong with that, especially as it's the same sort of agreement the EU already has with other coastal non-EU states.
What's wrong with it is that the EU hasn't internalised the reality that the UK is leaving the EU. They still think it's about removing the flag and the MEPs; they still think that British citizens don't really understand, or have any serious objection to, the influence the EU has had over our domestic affairs through mechanisms like the CFP and internal market rules. They therefore reason that we can be allowed to remove the flags and the MEPs, but that it is an entirely fair and reasonable aim to continue to lock the UK into their regulatory frameworks. Essentially, they want BRINO, to the maximum extent they can get away with. It's the absolute ultimate prize if they can get away with it, because it means they get all of the above while we lose the ability to be obstructive (or, perhaps, the voice of reason) in their various summits and committees.

1andrew1 15-09-2020 11:27
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36050216)
What is wrong with that, especially as it's the same sort of agreement the EU already has with other coastal non-EU states.
What's wrong with this is that a different system has operated for 40 years which is not the case in the other territories you mention. You simply damage people's livelihoods overnight by a drastic change and crucially, French fishermen have strong leverage.
The key is a phased change which should be negotiable by a strong UK government with skilled negotiators.

Chris 15-09-2020 11:29
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050220)
What's wrong with this is that a different system has operated for 40 years. You simply impact people's livelihoods overnight by a drastic change and French fishermen have strong leverage.
The key is a phased change which should be negotiable by a strong UK government with skilled negotiators.
I've not seen any evidence that the sticking point is timetabling. Basic continuation of the CFP in British waters has been a precondition on the EU side from day one - a red line they have given no indication they're willing to cross.

1andrew1 15-09-2020 11:35
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36050221)
I've not seen any evidence that the sticking point is timetabling. Basic continuation of the CFP in British waters has been a precondition on the EU side from day one - a red line they have given no indication they're willing to cross.
I've not followed it closely enough to say one way or the other, but financially it's so unimportant that I'm sure there's room for flex.

Chris 15-09-2020 11:44
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050222)
I've not followed it closely enough to say one way or the other, but financially it's so unimportant that I'm sure there's room for flex.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what drives Brexit, and what has driven anti-EU sentiment in the UK over many years.

Brexit is about the politics of who decides, not cold calculations about finances. Fisheries are of limited economic impact (although this is in part because the CFP has fostered an environment where that could become so) but their political impact in north east Scotland, for example, is enormous. In fact its impact in Scotland as a whole, and the whole union question, shouldn't be underestimated; if UK Gov eventually concedes on this it will be rightly used by the SNP to hammer the Scottish Tories for a betrayal (quite regardless of the fact that the SNP is pro-EU membership, and therefore membership of the CFP).

Beyond Scottish politics, or politics more generally, for an island nation, who makes the laws that affect our territorial waters and our exclusive economic zone are of immense symbolic importance.

Sephiroth 15-09-2020 12:16
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050217)
In terms of levers, I suspect the French fishermen and their ability to blockade the port of Calais has put this on the negotiating table. It's something we should be able to come to a deal on though - say a phased withdrawal from British waters.
I certainly sypport transitional arrangements. Of course no fish factory ships.

1andrew1 15-09-2020 12:17
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36050223)
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what drives Brexit, and what has driven anti-EU sentiment in the UK over many years.

Brexit is about the politics of who decides, not cold calculations about finances. Fisheries are of limited economic impact (although this is in part because the CFP has fostered an environment where that could become so) but their political impact in north east Scotland, for example, is enormous. In fact its impact in Scotland as a whole, and the whole union question, shouldn't be underestimated; if UK Gov eventually concedes on this it will be rightly used by the SNP to hammer the Scottish Tories for a betrayal (quite regardless of the fact that the SNP is pro-EU membership, and therefore membership of the CFP).

Beyond Scottish politics, or politics more generally, for an island nation, who makes the laws that affect our territorial waters and our exclusive economic zone are of immense symbolic importance.
I think there's also been a deliberate positioning of necessary stock management in order to cultivate anti-EU sentiment. I more than appreciate that Brexit is not about economics.
Obviously, fishing impacts small areas quite dramatically which is why it does not make sense for French fishermen for the switch to be turned off overnight but to ensure a managed change to a new system or for British fishermen to lose access to the markets where most of its catches are sold.

Sephiroth 15-09-2020 12:22
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050220)
What's wrong with this is that a different system has operated for 40 years which is not the case in the other territories you mention. You simply damage people's livelihoods overnight by a drastic change and crucially, French fishermen have strong leverage.
The key is a phased change which should be negotiable by a strong UK government with skilled negotiators.
I, and a lot of others, will have serious issues with what you've written.

First, as a Brit, you shouldn't be siding with the other side's fishermen. It's their problem In any case, for the past 40 years, our fishing communities have suffered.

I suspect that it is we who have the leverage, No deal, no fish. So sod 'em if the EU persists on its current line.

Phased change? No problem - seems reasonable.



---------- Post added at 12:22 ---------- Previous post was at 12:20 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050225)
I think there's also been a deliberate positioning of necessary stock management in order to cultivate anti-EU sentiment. I more than appreciate that Brexit is not about economics.
Obviously, fishing impacts small areas quite dramatically which is why it does not make sense for French fishermen for the switch to be turned off overnight but to ensure a managed change to a new system or for British fishermen to lose access to the markets where most of its catches are sold.
First half of the sentence, fairness to French fishermen should not be your worry.

Second half of the sentence - reasonable so long as it's matched by ground given by the EU.

nomadking 15-09-2020 12:38
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050220)
What's wrong with this is that a different system has operated for 40 years which is not the case in the other territories you mention. You simply damage people's livelihoods overnight by a drastic change and crucially, French fishermen have strong leverage.
The key is a phased change which should be negotiable by a strong UK government with skilled negotiators.
It changed "overnight" when the EEC did a power grab over fishing, just when when countries with large fishing areas such as UK, Ireland, Iceland, Denmark, and Norway were looking to join the EEC.
So why shouldn't it change? The UN agreement says we have control, and any historic fishing rights are invalid.
Why should there have been a drastic change on fishing. The EU are holding out on fishing at the expense of even greater "drastic changes". The initial quotas are unlikely to be that different to now.
Skill or otherwise of negotiators is irrelevant, when the EU is obstinate and doesn't have to agree to anything they don't want to and still keep things as they are for them. Under what they are looking for on EVERYTHING, is for things to be how THEY want them "unless and until" they say otherwise. If instead the EU had to agree or lose access, then they might be more reasonable, as they have something to lose. Eg if the UK wanted to reduce the EUs share, they couldn't unless the EU agreed. No (unarmed) negotiators can get around that.



Link
Quote:
The Community has three fisheries agreements with Norway, namely the bilateral, the trilateral and the neighbouring agreements. The bilateral arrangement covers the North Sea and the Atlantic, the trilateral agreement covers Skagerrak and Kattegat (Denmark, Sweden and Norway) and the neighbourhood arrangement covers the Swedish fishery in Norwegian waters of the North Sea.
...
The agreements are implemented in the form of annual fisheries arrangements. The bilateral and the trilateral arrangements allow for the setting of TACs for joint stocks, transfers of fishing possibilities, joint technical measures and issues related to control and enforcement. The neighbourhood arrangement includes fishing possibilities transferred from Norway to Sweden in accordance with the fisheries agreement between Norway and Sweden of December 1976.
The bilateral agreement is the single most important agreement the Community has with a third party both in terms of exchange of fish possibilities and in terms of joint management measures.


---------- Post added at 12:38 ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050225)
I think there's also been a deliberate positioning of necessary stock management in order to cultivate anti-EU sentiment. I more than appreciate that Brexit is not about economics.
Obviously, fishing impacts small areas quite dramatically which is why it does not make sense for French fishermen for the switch to be turned off overnight but to ensure a managed change to a new system or for British fishermen to lose access to the markets where most of its catches are sold.
Stock management? I doubt there would be any great divergence on that(and many other matters) between the UK and the EU. That is already the subject of several agreements the EU has with non-EU countries, so adding the UK to the list shouldn't be an issue for them.
The central issue is "who decides" on quotas etc.

A deal on fishing could've been done and dusted, if the EU wasn't so obstinate and lacking in "good faith".

1andrew1 15-09-2020 12:39
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36050226)
First half of the sentence, fairness to French fishermen should not be your worry.

Second half of the sentence - reasonable so long as it's matched by ground given by the EU.
French fishermen have disprortionate leverage in the EU and UK as they're effective at blocking the Port of Calais, our main route into Europe. We can't pretend it doesn't happen. Hence a phased agreement is even more important.

jonbxx 15-09-2020 12:42
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050225)
I think there's also been a deliberate positioning of necessary stock management in order to cultivate anti-EU sentiment. I more than appreciate that Brexit is not about economics.
Obviously, fishing impacts small areas quite dramatically which is why it does not make sense for French fishermen for the switch to be turned off overnight but to ensure a managed change to a new system or for British fishermen to lose access to the markets where most of its catches are sold.
It didn't help that Defra sold large chunks of the UK quota to large multinationals so the UK small boat fleet which is 77% of the UK fleet has 4% of the quota. 49% of the English quota is owned by foreign companies. National governments distribute their quotas as they see fit.

https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/201...-michael-gove/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52420116

Of course, we will have a catch 22 situation where, if talks collapse over fishing rights, then UK the UK fishing industry will not have agreed quotas with the EU but fish landed in the UK will be subject to tariffs and possible non-tariff barriers if exported to the EU so we win one one hand and lose on the other.

1andrew1 15-09-2020 12:44
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36050228)
It changed "overnight" when the EEC did a power grab over fishing, just when when countries with large fishing areas such as UK, Ireland, Iceland, Denmark, and Norway were looking to join the EEC.
Presumably French and other fishermen's business models weren't based around fishing in UK waters. This has happened over a 40-year period and they are keen to protect their livelihoods. Unfortunately, they are good at port blockades so catch politicians' ears quite effectively.
This is how it works. Not saying it's good or bad, it's just the way it is.

Sephiroth 15-09-2020 12:44
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050231)
French fishermen have disprortionate leverage in the EU and UK as they're effective at blocking the Port of Calais, our main route into Europe. We can't pretend it doesn't happen. Hence a phased agreement is even more important.
The French fishermen have no leverage on the UK. Acts of criminal disorder are for the French authorities to resolve.

UK politicians could not sell that rationale to the public. A phased agreement is important only as a concession we might make to the EU in a trade off for other matters of value.

1andrew1 15-09-2020 12:46
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36050232)
Of course, we will have a catch 22 situation where, if talks collapse over fishing rights, then UK the UK fishing industry will not have agreed quotas with the EU but fish landed in the UK will be subject to tariffs and possible non-tariff barriers if exported to the EU so we win one one hand and lose on the other.
Yes, a key (or quay ;)) dilemma!

OLD BOY 15-09-2020 13:04
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050127)
Ed Milliband performed well tonight, I was very surprised to see how effectively he stepped up. https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/s...46881272029188
I saw some of this performance on the news. Talk about dramatic! I thought he was having a funny turn!

nomadking 15-09-2020 13:24
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050233)
Presumably French and other fishermen's business models weren't based around fishing in UK waters. This has happened over a 40-year period and they are keen to protect their livelihoods. Unfortunately, they are good at port blockades so catch politicians' ears quite effectively.
This is how it works. Not saying it's good or bad, it's just the way it is.
So who was catching the fish in UK waters back then? Why did the EEC do a power grab of fishing waters around that time?
Nobody is saying the EU should be shut out completely whatever, just that it has has to be by agreement and not one that the EU one-sidedly controls.
Link

Quote:
He wrote: “The UK has the fifth largest exclusive economic zone in the world (approximately 6.8 million square kilometers) and the exclusive economic zone (EEZ) surrounding the United Kingdom accounts for 11% of the total area, with some 774,000 square kilometers (the others being EEZs of Crown Dependencies or British Overseas Territories).
“Apart from Norway, which is not part of the EU’s marine management, the British EEZ is the largest” shared “EEZ” operating within the framework of the common fisheries policy (CFP) in Northern Europe .
If fishing is such a huge deal to the EU, shouldn't that have concentrated EU minds on getting a trade deal FIRST?
The EU has known all along that control of fishing was a huge red line for the UK.

1andrew1 15-09-2020 14:32
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
German TV suggested that Theresa May needed a Brexorcist to help her understand that if you leave the EU, you no longer enjoy its benefits. :D

A bit of light relief here,https://twitter.com/MarieAnnUK/statu...20462824542210

nomadking 15-09-2020 14:35
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050240)
German TV suggested that Theresa May needed a Brexorcist to help her understand that if you leave the EU, you no longer enjoy its benefits. :D

A bit of light relief here,https://twitter.com/MarieAnnUK/statu...20462824542210
So how come other non-EU countries also enjoy the "benefits"?

Chris 15-09-2020 14:54
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Though apparently if you leave the EU, it's entirely reasonable to be required to fulfil its obligations ...

Damien 15-09-2020 15:13
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36050236)
I saw some of this performance on the news. Talk about dramatic! I thought he was having a funny turn!
Curse of the former leader, they're always more charismatic and likeable when they step down.

Hugh 15-09-2020 17:17
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36050236)
I saw some of this performance on the news. Talk about dramatic! I thought he was having a funny turn!
What - did he wave a packet of kippers about or drive a JCB through a fake wall? ;)

Sephiroth 15-09-2020 17:23
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36050263)
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY
I saw some of this performance on the news. Talk about dramatic! I thought he was having a funny turn!
What - did he wave a packet of kippers about or drive a JCB through a fake wall? ;)
@OLD BOY

You left yourself open there, OB!

jonbxx 16-09-2020 10:29
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
It seems that that the 'Brexit food blockade' was nonsense;

Quote:
Behind the scenes the third country listing or 'food blockade' row isn't quite so dramatic. The EU wants the UK to provide details of its post-Brexit animal and plant health (SPS) rules by the end of next month. The UK says it will, and they'll basically be the same as now.
See Twitter thread here - https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/...80816627658752

Still, it got people riled up for a few days...

1andrew1 16-09-2020 10:48
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36050355)
It seems that that the 'Brexit food blockade' was nonsense;

See Twitter thread here - https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/...80816627658752

Still, it got people riled up for a few days...
Good spot.

I think it was just being stretched by Boris to push MPs into voting for the amendment bill and to rally the gullible at a time when Track and Trace has issues.

nomadking 16-09-2020 11:20
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36050355)
It seems that that the 'Brexit food blockade' was nonsense;
See Twitter thread here - https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/...80816627658752

Still, it got people riled up for a few days...
The EU know full well what the UK rules are.
So have the EU approved the arrangements and will they continue to do so in a reasonable way? Did the EU say that it wasn't certain that they would be approved? Those are the unanswered questions.



As far as the NI protocol is concerned there is a mass of decisions the Joint committee has yet to make.
Link

Quote:
UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson has accused the European Union of threatening a trade border down the Irish Sea and a food blockade between Northern Ireland and the rest of country.
"We are now hearing that, unless we agree to the EU's terms, the EU will use an extreme interpretation of the Northern Ireland protocol to impose a full-scale trade border down the Irish Sea," Johnson wrote in an article that was published in the Daily Telegraph newspaper.

...
Johnson said a blockade could occur unless the government agreed to terms put forward by the EU bloc. He said the EU was posing a risk to the UK and peace in Northern Ireland, where sectarian violence had mostly been kept at bay since the 1998 Good Friday Agreement. He stated he wanted a trade deal similar to that between Canada and the EU, adding that "if the EU is willing to offer these terms to Canada then it makes sense to offer the same to us."
Link

Quote:
The European Commission is due to decide in the coming months on whether to allow British exports of live animals, products of animal origin, such as meat, fish, eggs and dairy products, and animal by-products to continue.
The granting of a "third country" licence to the whole of the UK had been seen as something of a formality, given the EU's similar arrangements with other nations.

...
A Downing Street spokesman said: "It would be very unusual for the EU to go down this route and deny the UK listing.
"The right to export is the absolute basis for a relationship between two countries that trade agricultural goods. It is a licence to export and entirely separate from the issue of food standards."
So the EU yet haven't granted anything even though UK rules are same or similar, and certainly would've been the SAME at the start of the (non-)Transition phase.

jonbxx 16-09-2020 12:06
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36050360)
The EU know full well what the UK rules are.
So have the EU approved the arrangements and will they continue to do so in a reasonable way? Did the EU say that it wasn't certain that they would be approved? Those are the unanswered questions.
The EU know what the rules are now but don't have clarity on what they will be after the end of the year. As the Twitter thread says, the transposing of the EU rules into British law is due at the end of next month so it should be all straightforward once passed.

nomadking 16-09-2020 12:08
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36050364)
The EU know what the rules are now but don't have clarity on what they will be after the end of the year. As the Twitter thread says, the transposing of the EU rules into British law is due at the end of next month so it should be all straightforward once passed.
The EU rules are forever changing so likewise we don't know what the EU rules will at that time. Do the EU know what various countries rules are going to be at that time? That would be, no they don't.
Still leaves whether the EU said that it wasn't certain they would approve anything, no matter what it was.

1andrew1 16-09-2020 12:48
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Government seems to be changing its tune on the EU not negotiating in good faith statements.
Quote:
Brandon Lewis confirms they believe the EU is negotiating with the UK in good faith
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/sta...78269058936833

Hugh 16-09-2020 13:40
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36050366)
The EU rules are forever changing so likewise we don't know what the EU rules will at that time. Do the EU know what various countries rules are going to be at that time? That would be, no they don't.
Still leaves whether the EU said that it wasn't certain they would approve anything, no matter what it was.
Once again, what he actually said...

Quote:
In a statement following the latest round of talks on Thursday, the EU’s chief negotiator Michel Barnier said there were “many uncertainties” about the UK’s animal hygiene regime.

He said “more clarity” was needed if Britain was to receive the “third-country listing” entitling it to export animal products to the EU.

1andrew1 16-09-2020 13:46
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Hard for anyone to disagree with this summary. It's not quite the glorious turn of events that some forum members predicted, shall we say!
Quote:
All of this marks a fitting finale to Britain’s catastrophic mismanagement of the Brexit process, which started with the resignation of the prime minister who called the referendum without any plan for what would happen if he lost it (David Cameron); continued with his successor triggering a two-year countdown to Britain’s final withdrawal without any plan for what future relationship she wanted to negotiate (Theresa May); and was followed by her successor signing an international treaty without any guarantee of a future trade deal, only then to rip up this agreement when its consequences began to reveal themselves (Boris Johnson).

Regardless of the merits of Brexit, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that Britain’s leaders dealt themselves one bad hand after another—and proceeded to play them badly.
For those seeking clarity on the Irish issue, the source of this quote has a good explanation.
https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...mbling/616343/

Chris 16-09-2020 15:33
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
It’s pretty easy to disagree with the summary, seeing as it says BoJo has “ripped up” the WA ... which he very obviously hasn’t. I’ve seen some hyperbole this week but that’s a classic of the genre.

Mick 16-09-2020 16:36
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
BREAKING: Prime Minister Boris Johnson, says this afternoon that the EU has not acted in good faith during the trade negotiations.

jonbxx 16-09-2020 17:03
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36050388)
BREAKING: Prime Minister Boris Johnson, says this afternoon that the EU has not acted in good faith during the trade negotiations.
Earlier Brandon Lewis said they were - https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status...52362449903619 - warning, NWS language in the replies.

Things are crazy right now!

1andrew1 16-09-2020 17:23
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
I do wonder if the slur at the EU was a classic dead cat distraction technique. Laura Kuenssberg noted:
Quote:
There is lots of interesting stuff in this liaison committee where PM facing Qs,, but I can't remember ever a PM not being able to answer if one of his ministers has resigned or not*. Followed swiftly by the PM saying he thinks the EU is negotiating in bad faith, even tho Brandon Lewis said this morning they were working in good faith - you wouldn't be blamed for thinking this is a bit mixed up
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak

*Lord Keen has indeed resigned, citing concerns with BoJo's amendments to the Withdrawal Agreement https://www.thenational.scot/news/18...bill-concerns/

nomadking 16-09-2020 18:04
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36050379)
Once again, what he actually said...
It wasn't question of what was said in public AFTER the allegation, but what was actually said in the meetings/discussions.

Mick 16-09-2020 18:34
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050397)
I do wonder if the slur at the EU was a classic dead cat distraction technique. Laura Kuenssberg noted:

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak

*Lord Keen has indeed resigned, citing concerns with BoJo's amendments to the Withdrawal Agreement https://www.thenational.scot/news/18...bill-concerns/
I don't care how many resignations you count or rack up Andrew, the IMB is required to curb the EU's disgusting stance on threatening a blockade of goods to NI.

You need to stop sucking up to the corrupted EU Andrew and stop thinking they can do no wrong, they can, they have and they continue to do so.

---------- Post added at 18:34 ---------- Previous post was at 18:20 ----------

Brexiteers 2016: "We need to vote leave because the EU wants more power to become a Federal entity, wants it's own army."

Remainers 2016: "Don't be so ridiculous, there will never be an EU Army, there will always be the Veto power we can use".

EU 2020:-

From BBC's Katya Adler:

Quote:
In her State of the Union address, European Commission President calling for bigger, swifter role for EU on world stage - call for qualified majority voting instead on unanimity on foreign policy issues #SOTU

1andrew1 16-09-2020 18:47
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36050404)
I don't care how many resignations you count or rack up Andrew, the IMB is required to curb the EU's disgusting stance on threatening a blockade of goods to NI.

You need to stop sucking up to the corrupted EU Andrew and stop thinking they can do no wrong, they can, they have and they continue to do so.

---------- Post added at 18:34 ---------- Previous post was at 18:20 ----------

Brexiteers 2016: "We need to vote leave because the EU wants more power to become a Federal entity, wants it's own army."

Remainers 2016: "Don't be so ridiculous, there will never be an EU Army, there will always be the Veto power we can use".

EU 2020:-

From BBC's Katya Adler:
Call me old fashioned but I struggle to see how we can exercise our veto on something we're no longer a member of! Talk about cake and eat it!

I urge you to accept we've left the EU! Pull up a chair, grab some popcorn and join the rest of us in watching BoJo stumble from one crisis to another. Heck, even The Spectator which he used to edit has found the courage to call him out.
https://twitter.com/lukemcgee/status...139137/photo/1

Mick 16-09-2020 18:50
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050409)
Call me old fashioned but I struggle to see how we can exercise our veto on something we're no longer a member of! Talk about cake and eat it!

I urge you to accept we've left the EU! Pull up a chair, grab some popcorn and join the rest of us in watching BoJo stumble from one crisis to another. Heck, even The Spectator which he used to edit has found the courage to call him out.
https://twitter.com/lukemcgee/status...139137/photo/1
Read what I wrote again FFS.

In 2016 we still had the veto power because we were still in the EU!

In 2020, the EU is talking about the elimination of the Veto power by going for majority voting!

Hence, thank god we have left. Which is why I was highlighting the bullshit you Remainers were saying would never happen, is now happening!

I wasn't talking about using the veto power now, so wake up for goodness sake Andrew and do stop talking utter bollocks!

1andrew1 16-09-2020 19:09
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36050410)
Read what I wrote again FFS.

In 2016 we still had the veto power because we were still in the EU!

In 2020, the EU is talking about the elimination of the Veto power by going for majority voting!

Hence, thank god we have left.

I wasn't talking about using the veto power now, so wake up for goodness sake Andrew and do stop talking utter bollocks!
A Commission President putting out feelers on making majority decisions on foreign policy matters does not constitute an EU army in the making.

Mick 16-09-2020 19:25
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050414)
A Commission President putting out feelers on making majority decisions on foreign policy matters does not constitute an EU army in the making.
Yes it does Andrew. Like I said, wake the hell up.

They already have a stance to get one in place anyway.

Quote:
Are the EU doing anything that looks like creating a European army?


Well, yes. They now have an EU Military Staff and an EU Military Committee, both part of the 'Command Structure' of the EU Common Security and Defence Policy. They have created the EU Peace Fund, a military intervention fund of 10.5 billion euros.
https://briefingsforbritain.co.uk/wi...-its-own-army/

Pierre 16-09-2020 20:35
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
If it is being argued that international treaties cannot be amended, adjusted, tweaked etc.

Then could Germany please pay us the £234 Billion they owe us, before the treaty of Versailles was amended?

Mick 16-09-2020 20:52
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36050426)
If it is being argued that international treaties cannot be amended, adjusted, tweaked etc.

Then could Germany please pay us the £234 Billion they owe us, before the treaty of Versailles was amended?
Germany and Merkel need to stfu.

Germany has a Constitution that it would put first over International treaties.

Here is a very good article from the Spectator from a few days ago...

"Why didn't the EU punish Germany, when it broke international law?"

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...rnational-law-

Quote:

Boris Johnson's proposal to break international law 'in a specific and limited way' has sparked uproar. But do you remember when the UK broke the Geneva Convention? Oh. Well we did. The government ratified the Geneva Convention on the Sea on 10 September 1964. From then the UK was bound forever by the treaty and bound by international law. On 25 September 1964, we were not. No explanation was given. No explanation was asked.

Our Judge who ruled in favour of the government when it broke the Geneva Convention of the Sea, said this:

'the Crown [The Government] has a sovereign right, which the court cannot question, to change its policy, even if this involves breaking an international convention to which it is a party and which has come into force so recently as fifteen days before'.

That Judge became Lord Diplock and he was, one of our very best judges. He was utterly silent on whether or not he thought that example of breaking international law was good or bad – silent because it is a question of politics. Obeying this law is part of our Rule of Law. In a way some may find confusing, that may mean we must obey this law – that we can break international law.

Most of us know the experience. At a party or at the school gate, someone says 'I really must tell you my political opinion'. Though the eyes may thin a smile is forced. The words 'must you?' are never said out loud.

It had been the policy of lawyers to avoid politics when discussing the law – to be free to give a personal political opinion of course, but to also keep our legal opinions free of our politics. It is extremely difficult to do regarding international law. What then is a possible solution?

There are endless examples of breaches of international law by the 193 nations. The UK is, rightly, one of the good guys. It is my view that the solution is to simply copy Germany. Germany’s constitution puts international law on the highest footing – at least expressly, because if I am right and ours moves to copy it them then ours will too.
Similarly, the United States and the US Supreme Court does not regard the findings of international courts of justice as binding.

1andrew1 16-09-2020 22:26
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
A likely future leader of the US* lets BoJo know where the US will stand on a trade deal.
Quote:
Joe Biden We can’t allow the Good Friday Agreement that brought peace to Northern Ireland to become a casualty of Brexit.

Any trade deal between the U.S. and U.K. must be contingent upon respect for the Agreement and preventing the return of a hard border. Period.
https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1306334039557586944

*Source: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...eral/national/

nomadking 16-09-2020 22:33
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050434)
A likely future leader of the US* lets BoJo know where the US will stand on a trade deal.

https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1306334039557586944

*Source: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...eral/national/
Democrats siding with the IRA as usual.

Mick 16-09-2020 22:46
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050434)
A likely future leader of the US* lets BoJo know where the US will stand on a trade deal.

https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1306334039557586944

*Source: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...eral/national/
The GFA isn’t in jeopardy with Boris’s actions. Sleepy Joe is still asleep. 💤

But as usual, siding With the EU again. You really are a disgrace Andrew.

Carth 16-09-2020 22:51
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050434)
A likely future leader of the US* lets BoJo know where the US will stand on a trade deal.

https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1306334039557586944

*Source: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...eral/national/
ooooh, links to a twitter tweet and a polling page, I was going to say you can do better than that . . . maybe you're giving up? ;)

1andrew1 16-09-2020 23:04
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36050442)
ooooh, links to a twitter tweet and a polling page, I was going to say you can do better than that . . . maybe you're giving up? ;)
Pesky me, linking to orginal source materials. I'm deffo on my way out and you've worked it out! :D

Mick 16-09-2020 23:24
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050444)
Pesky me, linking to orginal source materials. I'm deffo on my way out and you've worked it out! :D
I also noticed the tumbleweed passing by when I highlighted above about Germany breaking International law, U.S not recognising anything other than it’s own Constitution.

Just Fake outrage from you, when the UK intends to to protect the integrity of all the UK from the grips of the corrupted EU.

1andrew1 16-09-2020 23:56
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36050446)
I also noticed the tumbleweed passing by when I highlighted above about Germany breaking International law, U.S not recognising anything other than it’s own Constitution.

Just Fake outrage from you, when the UK intends to to protect the integrity of all the UK from the grips of the corrupted EU.
I don't have time to research every claim made on this forum. I could dive in there and say it's nonsense but that's not my style. My comments are as I see things.

I've posted previously how we could better have handled matters if we it did not want a close relationship with the EU after Brexit. Instead, as that earlier Atlantic article shows we've weakened our position on every possible occasion.

Mick 17-09-2020 00:01
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050449)
I don't have time to research every claim made on this forum. I could dive in there and say it's nonsense but that's not my style. My comments are as I see things.

I've posted previously how we could better have handled matters if we it did not want a close relationship with the EU after Brexit. Instead, as that earlier Atlantic article shows we've weakened our position on every possible occasion.
You don’t have time?

Utter bollocks Andrew, more like you do not have the inclination to correct yourself when you are continuously wrong about everything EU related. You have an agenda to defend your precious EU, but I’m not falling, or buying your persistence full of hyperbole and bullshit.

1andrew1 17-09-2020 00:04
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36050450)
You don’t have time?

Utter bollocks Andrew, more like you do not have the inclination to correct yourself when you are continuously wrong about everything EU related. You have an agenda to defend your precious EU, but I’m not falling, or buying your persistence full of hyperbole and bullshit.
That's a bit harsh, Mick. Sleep on it.

Mad Max 17-09-2020 00:08
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36050436)
Democrats siding with the IRA as usual.
Absolutely spot on.

jonbxx 17-09-2020 10:11
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36050446)
I also noticed the tumbleweed passing by when I highlighted above about Germany breaking International law
I am guessing by the Spectator article you posted, you are discussing the German courts ruling that the ECB overstepped its remit in the Pandemic Emergency Purchase Program (Coronavirus Eurobonds)

After the ECB sent its' justification, Germany is back in line with the ECBs initiative - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKBN26711R

jfman 17-09-2020 10:44
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
I’m unconvinced how supporting a hard won peace process - that unionist and nationalists on the island of Ireland signed up to - is “supporting the IRA”.

nomadking 17-09-2020 10:54
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36050474)
I’m unconvinced how supporting a hard won peace process - that unionist and nationalists on the island of Ireland signed up to - is “supporting the IRA”.
So when they;re going on about damaging the "peace process", who are they saying will kick off? Other than not being allowed to return, what concessions did the IRA make? They are still active, they are still armed, and they are still heavily supported.
If there ends up being a hard border, 1) so what 2) Why should the IRA kick off about it? 3) It is the destination country(ie the EU) that decides on the hard border.

jfman 17-09-2020 10:59
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36050476)
So when they;re going on about damaging the "peace process", who are they saying will kick off? Other than not being allowed to return, what concessions did the IRA make? They are still active, they are still armed, and they are still heavily supported.
If there ends up being a hard border, 1) so what 2) Why should the IRA kick off about it? 3) It is the destination country(ie the EU) that decides on the hard border.
That’s potential consequences of a hard border not the democrats “siding with the IRA” as you put it. However it gets union flag waving British nationalists frothing at the mouth to portray an eminently sensible idea as “us vs the IRA”.

jonbxx 17-09-2020 12:51
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36050476)
If there ends up being a hard border, 1) so what 2) Why should the IRA kick off about it? 3) It is the destination country(ie the EU) that decides on the hard border.
This is a good point, if Northern Ireland's current status changes, the Republic of Ireland (not the EU) may need to close the border to fulfill its treaty obligations (TFEU) The UK could choose not to close the border but under its' WTO obligations, every port would need to be equally open under non-discrimination rules.

The IRA would kick off as the Good Friday Agreement is a massive fudge which affirmed the border in its current state until the people of both the Republic and Northern Ireland agreed otherwise along with power sharing. Paramilitary groups including the IRA disarmed on that premise (plus releasing lots of dodgy characters from HMP Maze) Of course, at the time, no-one thought the either the Republic of Ireland or the UK might leave the EU throwing the status of the border up in the air

nomadking 17-09-2020 13:01
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Are people seriously suggesting that if the IRA wanted a hard border, then that wouldn't be what the EU and Democrats in the US were pushing for?:rolleyes: A "vote yes or we will continue to be violent" is NOT a free vote or "consent freely given" under any definition, unless it's England and the UK on the receiving end.


If there did end up being a one-sided hard border, then it would actually be the EU and anyone complaining to the WTO, who would be responsible for breaking the GFA.

Mick 17-09-2020 13:12
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36050472)
I am guessing by the Spectator article you posted, you are discussing the German courts ruling that the ECB overstepped its remit in the Pandemic Emergency Purchase Program (Coronavirus Eurobonds)

After the ECB sent its' justification, Germany is back in line with the ECBs initiative - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKBN26711R
But Germany still broke International law and it would do so if it meant upholding their constitution.

The outrage from the Remainers is non-existent when other countries breach international treaties/laws because you’re hypocrites. I’m fed up of you all defending the EU, when it is the one acting in total disgrace towards Britain over the years. The fact, you hold the EU in such high regard when it is corrupt to the core. The fact it is Undemocratic but pretends to be so.

jfman 17-09-2020 13:34
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36050490)
Are people seriously suggesting that if the IRA wanted a hard border, then that wouldn't be what the EU and Democrats in the US were pushing for?:rolleyes: A "vote yes or we will continue to be violent" is NOT a free vote or "consent freely given" under any definition, unless it's England and the UK on the receiving end.


If there did end up being a one-sided hard border, then it would actually be the EU and anyone complaining to the WTO, who would be responsible for breaking the GFA.
It’s an IRA, EU and US democratic conspiracy to bring back a hard border? Nobody forced the UK to choose Brexit, and even after they did nobody forced them to go down a route that leads to a border on the island of Ireland that overwhelmingly does not want one. This was concocted in London, shifting the blame elsewhere for it does not serve you well. The arguments appear, at face value, almost hysterical.

1andrew1 17-09-2020 13:48
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
People seeking a no-deal need to understand the Irish (EU) border situation. The UK will not be afforded WTO status unless it puts a hard border between itself and the EU. There's no way the UK can trade without being in the WTO so no-deal is not an option.

Sephiroth 17-09-2020 13:51
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36050496)
It’s an IRA, EU and US democratic conspiracy to bring back a hard border? Nobody forced the UK to choose Brexit, and even after they did nobody forced them to go down a route that leads to a border on the island of Ireland that overwhelmingly does not want one. This was concocted in London, shifting the blame elsewhere for it does not serve you well. The arguments appear, at face value, almost hysterical.
Which is more important to the EU?

Good Friday Agreement?
Fishing quotas?

All the EU needs to do is reach a trade agreement with the UK.

nomadking 17-09-2020 13:54
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36050496)
It’s an IRA, EU and US democratic conspiracy to bring back a hard border? Nobody forced the UK to choose Brexit, and even after they did nobody forced them to go down a route that leads to a border on the island of Ireland that overwhelmingly does not want one. This was concocted in London, shifting the blame elsewhere for it does not serve you well. The arguments appear, at face value, almost hysterical.
The EU is the one forcing a hard border, and NOBODY ELSE. They are the ones being constantly stubborn on a trade deal. Where else on the planet would another country be allowed to dictate what could and couldn't be moved around in the country? Do you have the remotest idea of what the EU has control over. eg parcels from GB to NI. There is a very long list of things that we have to get their approval over.
Why on earth should the IRA dictate what this country can and cannot do?:mad:

Chris 17-09-2020 13:57
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
The IRA wants a United ireland, not a hard border. The peace process was sold to republicans on the basis that in the long run, an invisible frontier, normalisation of all-Ireland institutions and a constitutional mechanism for an eventual border poll was a better prospect than a shooting war, especially after the supply line from Col. Gadaffi and the cash from Noraid began to dry up. It is no coincidence that the IRA began serious efforts at decommissioning within months of the Twin Towers spelling out to ‘Irish’ New Yorkers what it actually feels like to be on the receiving end of an act of terrorism.

The EU wants a United Europe, not a hard border, in Ireland or anywhere else. That is its reason to exist and it is incapable of conceiving of any other ending. Philosophically I think the EU’s bureaucracy still doesn’t comprehend Brexit and given the continuing and very obvious division in British public life on the issue, feels quite justified in pursuing a negotiating strategy that aims to keep the U.K. as tightly aligned to the bloc as possible. The U.K. is not Norway; sitting right on the EU’s doorstep is one of the world’s biggest economies, and one of the world’s financial centres, and one of the world’s few true global cities. The risk to the EU project in the event that the U.K. seriously diverges from its regulatory regime could be destabilising. The prospect of keeping the U.K. tightly aligned is too tempting, both to prevent competitive deregulation and also to ensure the U.K. re-joining at some point is a realistic prospect, and an argument that could be made seriously in a future referendum.

As far as the EU is concerned, this is not about destabilising the U.K. or creating a border. It’s about fighting as hard as possible to avoid a border and to keep the U.K. as close to the EU as possible. The impasse occurs because it is pretty clear within the U.K. that amongst Brexit supporters, the sentiment that the U.K. should make a clean and decisive break from the EU is so strong that to ignore it is politically destabilising. Thus the U.K. and the EU side both have irreconcilable differences, and neither side has thus far budged. It is reasonable for the EU to suspect Boris will eventually cave in, because that’s what Teresa May did. Boris’ strategy for trying to prove that he won’t cave in (that highly contentious piece of legislation) is high risk, but it is meant to create a lot of noise, as it has in fact done.

jfman 17-09-2020 13:58
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36050500)
The EU is the one forcing a hard border, and NOBODY ELSE. They are the ones being constantly stubborn on a trade deal. Where else on the planet would another country be allowed to dictate what could and couldn't be moved around in the country? Do you have the remotest idea of what the EU has control over. eg parcels from GB to NI. There is a very long list of things that we have to get their approval over.
Why on earth should the IRA dictate what this country can and cannot do?:mad:
Given “taking back control” of our borders was one of the reasons for Brexit I’m sure even you see the irony that “we want control of our borders but we don’t want you to control yours” is a somewhat unrealistic ambition.

Would you accept a flood of migrants heading our way over the UK partition on the island or Ireland? Of course you wouldn’t. It’s unreasonable to expect so.

1andrew1 17-09-2020 13:59
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36050500)
The EU is the one forcing a hard border, and NOBODY ELSE. They are the ones being constantly stubborn on a trade deal. Where else on the planet would another country be allowed to dictate what could and couldn't be moved around in the country? Do you have the remotest idea of what the EU has control over. eg parcels from GB to NI. There is a very long list of things that we have to get their approval over.
Why on earth should the IRA dictate what this country can and cannot do?:mad:
From a soft Brexiter's viewpoint, if the UK took an approach like Norway and Switzerland we wouldn't be in this mess.

Alternatively, from a no-deal Brexiter's viewpoint, the Government could have decided that it was better to review a 20-year old treaty (The Good Friday Agreement) and not a 20-week-old treaty (Withdrawal Agreement). It would have won the moral agreement (eg why is the EU interfering in a sovereign nation) if it had done the former and not the latter. The Government has failed no-deal Brexiters as it's too late for such a situation.

Carth 17-09-2020 14:25
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
I have no qualms regarding a no deal brexit.

hard border, soft border, 100 miles of concrete wall with guard posts and razor wire, line scuffed in the sand . . . all the same in the end, we'll trade or we won't.

Pretty sure I can survive without :p:

1andrew1 17-09-2020 14:44
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36050507)
I have no qualms regarding a no deal brexit.

hard border, soft border, 100 miles of concrete wall with guard posts and razor wire, line scuffed in the sand . . . all the same in the end, we'll trade or we won't.

Pretty sure I can survive without :p:
Except what you've described breaks the Good Friday Agreement. If so, they should have addressed this in 2016 not 2020.

Carth 17-09-2020 14:45
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050513)
Except what you've described breaks the Good Friday Agreement. If so, they should have addressed this in 2016 not 2020.
ok . . . so what agreement does 'no border' break?

1andrew1 17-09-2020 15:13
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36050514)
ok . . . so what agreement does 'no border' break?
Good Friday Agreement requires no borders.
WTO if no deal means borders.

Sephiroth 17-09-2020 15:16
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050520)
Good Friday Agreement requires no borders.
WTO if no deal means borders.
I love this conundrum. Everyone loses and shit creek looks like paradise!

jonbxx 17-09-2020 15:24
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36050492)
But Germany still broke International law and it would do so if it meant upholding their constitution.

The outrage from the Remainers is non-existent when other countries breach international treaties/laws because you’re hypocrites. I’m fed up of you all defending the EU, when it is the one acting in total disgrace towards Britain over the years. The fact, you hold the EU in such high regard when it is corrupt to the core. The fact it is Undemocratic but pretends to be so.
To be fair, I wasn't even aware of this case until today so I was unable to express any outrage. I agree that the German courts vs. the ECJ could result in Germany being in a position to break the Eurozone agreements. Luckily for everyone, the further clarifications sent by the ECB were accepted by German as passing the subsidiarity tests they initially failed and a bullet was dodged. The UK can still dodge a bullet too...

Luckily in terms of corruption, the EU and Western Europe states are the least corrupt region in the world with 14 of the top 20 countries in the Corruption Perceptions Index. Always room for improvement though - https://www.transparency.org/en/news...-europe-and-eu

1andrew1 17-09-2020 15:43
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36050501)
T Boris’ strategy for trying to prove that he won’t cave in (that highly contentious piece of legislation) is high risk, but it is meant to create a lot of noise, as it has in fact done.
And more importantly, to distract from the Track and Trace failings.

Carth 17-09-2020 17:04
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36050514)
ok . . . so what agreement does 'no border' break?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050520)
Good Friday Agreement requires no borders.
WTO if no deal means borders.
Still not sure I understand.

The Good Friday agreement says we don't need a border, but that isn't a trade deal is it?

A WTO means we will need a border if there's no deal with the EU.

A deal with the EU means we won't need a border, and therefore won't need one if we strike other deals elsewhere . . but we do need a border in it's no deal . . . is that right?

The deal with Japan (and others) . . was there a fuss about borders?

Should I just treble my daily alcohol intake and forget it all? ;)

1andrew1 17-09-2020 17:12
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36050538)
Still not sure I understand.

The Good Friday agreement says we don't need a border, but that isn't a trade deal is it?

A WTO means we will need a border if there's no deal with the EU.

A deal with the EU means we won't need a border, and therefore won't need one if we strike other deals elsewhere . . but we do need a border in it's no deal . . . is that right?

The deal with Japan (and others) . . was there a fuss about borders?

Should I just treble my daily alcohol intake and forget it all? ;)
Nope, I can't recommend increasing consumption that much. But pull up a chair, pour yourself a moderate glass and watch it all unfurl. ;)

We have a border with Japan.
We don't have one with the Republic of Ireland as enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement, which is not a trade deal. Which is fine and dandy at the moment but if we can't strike a trade deal with the EU then we enter that dilemma I outlined earlier:
- Good Friday Agreement requires no borders.
- WTO if no deal means borders.

The current situation is a bit like leaving the task you hate to do the most until the last possible moment whereas you know the sensible thing to do is to get it out of the way early on.

Carth 17-09-2020 17:36
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
aaah, so if we struck some kind of deal with the Republic of Ireland as a separate entity - if that's at all possible to the EU masters - everything would be fine :D

1andrew1 17-09-2020 17:39
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36050527)
To be fair, I wasn't even aware of this case until today so I was unable to express any outrage. I agree that the German courts vs. the ECJ could result in Germany being in a position to break the Eurozone agreements. Luckily for everyone, the further clarifications sent by the ECB were accepted by German as passing the subsidiarity tests they initially failed and a bullet was dodged. The UK can still dodge a bullet too...

Luckily in terms of corruption, the EU and Western Europe states are the least corrupt region in the world with 14 of the top 20 countries in the Corruption Perceptions Index. Always room for improvement though - https://www.transparency.org/en/news...-europe-and-eu
I was only aware of it at midnight last night and didn't have time to research the voracity of the claims. Not that it's mine or anyone's responsibility here to fact check these things. Thanks for clarifying the situation in Germany.

---------- Post added at 17:39 ---------- Previous post was at 17:37 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36050547)
aaah, so if we struck some kind of deal with the Republic of Ireland as a separate entity - if that's at all possible to the EU masters - everything would be fine :D
Trading blocs with a single market can't strike side deals as the single market would cease to be um, a single market. ;)

Carth 17-09-2020 18:07
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050548)
Trading blocs with a single market can't strike side deals as the single market would cease to be um, a single market. ;)
Rules & Regulations, always getting in the damn way :D

Mick 17-09-2020 19:01
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36050527)
To be fair, I wasn't even aware of this case until today so I was unable to express any outrage. I agree that the German courts vs. the ECJ could result in Germany being in a position to break the Eurozone agreements. Luckily for everyone, the further clarifications sent by the ECB were accepted by German as passing the subsidiarity tests they initially failed and a bullet was dodged. The UK can still dodge a bullet too...

Luckily in terms of corruption, the EU and Western Europe states are the least corrupt region in the world with 14 of the top 20 countries in the Corruption Perceptions Index. Always room for improvement though - https://www.transparency.org/en/news...-europe-and-eu
I do not want the UK to dodge a bullet, I do not care if it means breaching international law, it if means stopping the corrupted EU from getting it's grips on Northern Ireland.

The EU is corrupt to the core and nothing you say changes this or any stupid index system. I have a pair of eyes, it is corrupt!

The EU pretends to be a Democratic Entity = Corrupt.

Just look at the European Commission Presidential Election last year, how the current and new president, Ursula Von Der Leyen, wasn't even on the ballot = Corrupt.

It breaches International law itself, is in current breach of the Withdrawal Act, given it is not acting in good faith in negotiations when it has a legal requirement to do so. A legal standard itself upholds with but fails to follow itself = Corrupt.

The EU insists that Democratic processes are asked again, to ensure it gets the result it wants = Corrupt.

Thankfully the UK stood up to this totally corrupted democratic system by a totally corrupted entity.

I will keep on saying it until you and the other Remainers in this thread get it. Germany broke international law, "broke" is past tense, it does not say in the article, that it was going to break, it "broke" it cannot undo what it has done, so as the Spectator asked in the article, why was Germany not punished by the corrupted EU for breaking International law, stop trying to sugar coat it or pretend it didn't happen when it did.

When a legal expert, a barrister has certainly explained in the Spectator that the case was that Germany, with its supposed high commitment to international law, found as a matter of principle that it can overturn international law (this can only mean break it), if an international law obligation asked Germany to do something which was a fundamental breach of its constitution.

---------- Post added at 19:01 ---------- Previous post was at 18:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050530)
And more importantly, to distract from the Track and Trace failings.
That is what the pathetic EU's Barnier accused him off yesterday. Mouth piece for the EU yet again I see, you're a disgrace Andrew. :td:

nomadking 17-09-2020 19:06
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050548)
I was only aware of it at midnight last night and didn't have time to research the voracity of the claims. Not that it's mine or anyone's responsibility here to fact check these things. Thanks for clarifying the situation in Germany.

---------- Post added at 17:39 ---------- Previous post was at 17:37 ----------


Trading blocs with a single market can't strike side deals as the single market would cease to be um, a single market. ;)
You mean like treating NI differently would be breaking the UK single market?
From NI protocol.

Quote:
RECALLING that Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom and will benefit from participation in the United Kingdom's independent trade policy,
HAVING REGARD to the importance of maintaining the integral place of Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom’s internal market,

All this is simply because the EU insist on bullying us to sign up to THEIR version of a deal.

jfman 17-09-2020 20:11
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
The EU plan gives Northern Ireland the best of both worlds in terms of trade. A break that one of the weakest performing economic areas of the UK could do with.

Unfortunately, the lack of self awareness in England doesn’t realise this is going to drive Irish unification. You couldn’t manufacture a better position for the Republicans to work from than a Brexit that sacrifices the peace process.

I give it ten years, maximum. Coupled with Scottish independence England will finally be a great nation once again.

Sephiroth 17-09-2020 20:29
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36050571)
The EU plan gives Northern Ireland the best of both worlds in terms of trade. A break that one of the weakest performing economic areas of the UK could do with.

Unfortunately, the lack of self awareness in England doesn’t realise this is going to drive Irish unification. You couldn’t manufacture a better position for the Republicans to work from than a Brexit that sacrifices the peace process.

I give it ten years, maximum. Coupled with Scottish independence England will finally be a great nation once again.
.. and the envy certainly of Scotland (under their breath).

1andrew1 17-09-2020 20:37
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36050573)
.. and the envy certainly of Scotland (under their breath).
That's not very aspirational, Seph. ;)
Weren't we going to become some sort of global world-beating powerhouse?With free trade deals stretching from China and India to Mexico and Canada. With the EU pleading daily to give them a free trade deal whilst we told them to politely get in the queue after Latvia?

Mr K 17-09-2020 20:39
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36050573)
.. and the envy certainly of Scotland (under their breath).
Hadrian's wall will be rebuilt, by the Scottish this time to stop the immigrants....

Sephiroth 17-09-2020 21:12
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050575)
That's not very aspirational, Seph. ;)
Weren't we going to become some sort of global world-beating powerhouse?With free trade deals stretching from China and India to Mexico and Canada. With the EU pleading daily to give them a free trade deal whilst we told them to politely get in the queue after Latvia?
Correct.

But relative to Scotland, we will.

As to your sarcasm ... funny though.

jfman 17-09-2020 21:18
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
As long as we go up in the world happiness report. Like Sweden and places like that.

1andrew1 18-09-2020 16:58
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Another resignation, this time from the UK’s special envoy on media freedom over the Government’s “lamentable” suggestion it could violate international law over the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/a...-a4550906.html

nomadking 18-09-2020 17:27
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
When will people finally get it. The NI Protocol is flimsy on so many if the details eg supermarket distribution, sending of parcels from GB to NI.:shocked: It boils down to what the EU will allow us to do. How is that an ok situation?
These are the sorts of things the EU has yet to tell us what we must do. Is anybody still under the ridiculous impression that the EU is into negotiated reasonable agreements as far as the UK is concerned? There has to be a way of avoiding the EU from blocking all these things. The bill is simply to enable a decision to actually be made where the Joint Committee HASN'T reached one itself, not to override something that might have been agreed.
Link
Quote:
4.2 Tariffs
The UK Government has been clear that there should be no tariffs on internal UK trade; and that in any case, full use will be made of waivers and reimbursements to minimise the impact on business in any scenario. The Protocol sets out that there must be a UK-EU Joint Committee decision on the application of tariffs to ‘at risk’ goods moving into Northern Ireland, and that decision will inform the final regime that applies. Full details will therefore be provided subsequent to that decision.
4.3 Simplifications and facilitations
It is recognised that this system of facilitations will need to take account of the regime that will apply for the application of tariffs to ‘at risk’ goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland. As such, further guidance may be provided following the UK-EU Joint Committee decision in that regard. In the meantime, further information on these and other facilitations available is on gov.uk.
4.4 Transit
Recognising the importance of that route for goods movements, specific discussions are ongoing as to the transit requirements for that trade.
4.6 Non-freight
Any requirements for goods in luggage, Royal Mail and parcels are still under consideration. Further guidance will be set out in due course.
...
4.7 VAT and Excise
As this is subject to ongoing consultation and discussion, further guidance will be set out on the application of VAT and excise rules for goods in Northern Ireland in due course.
5. Great Britain to Northern Ireland: sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) goods
Specifically, the UK Government recognises the unique position of authorised traders, such as supermarkets, with stable supply chains, and comprehensive oversight of warehousing and distribution operations, moving pre-packaged products for retail sale solely in Northern Ireland. We are continuing to pursue specific solutions for this trade, and this guidance does not therefore apply to this trade.
5.1 SPS goods: common requirements
There will be a series of common requirements that will apply to typical movements of agri-food products from Great Britain to Northern Ireland from 1 January 2021 (subject to the outcome of discussions about the process and frequency of controls). These are as follows:
7.1 Products of Animal Origin (POAO)
Establishments moving POAO from Great Britain to Northern Ireland will additionally need to be approved in line with food hygiene regulations, either by the relevant local authority or by the Food Standards Agency (or Food Standards Scotland) depending on the nature of the production they are undertaking. More information is available on approved food establishments. These establishments will also need to be listed by the EU.


---------- Post added at 17:27 ---------- Previous post was at 17:26 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36050678)
Another resignation, this time from the UK’s special envoy on media freedom over the Government’s “lamentable” suggestion it could violate international law over the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/a...-a4550906.html
Yet more evidence the bill is the right thing to do.

Carth 18-09-2020 17:30
Re: Brexit-Transitional Period Ends 31/12/20
 
Wonder who's next to resign?

The special envoy for painting the black bits at zebra crossings?
The chap in charge of placing speed cameras behind overgrown bushes?
The nice lady responsible for ensuring CCTV cameras are actually working?

I've no idea what they think they gain by resigning, their place will simply be taken by someone who won't complain . . . talk about weakening the argument :D


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