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OLD BOY 08-07-2019 09:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36001799)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8991351.html

These views may have been influenced by the fact we’ve moved from

"easiest deal in the world"

to

"" Determined to leave come what may"
I would point out that we already have a deal with the EU ready to go. We would also be able to get the backstop sorted out if Parliament did not keep interfering with our negotiating position.

Hugh 08-07-2019 10:04
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36001800)
I would point out that we already have a deal with the EU ready to go. We would also be able to get the backstop sorted out if Parliament did not keep interfering with our negotiating position.
I would point out that under our system of Government, it’s Parliament’s role (and responsibility) to check and challenge the work of the Government, make and change laws, check and approve Government spending, and to debate the important issues of the day.

In most places, the negotiating position is agreed by the internal groups, before being presented to the external parties - that way, you don’t have this kerfuffle...

TheDaddy 08-07-2019 11:39
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36001793)
The article I posted was essentially about the UK's obligation to bail out countries of the Eurozone in the event of a financial crash. The fishing issue was the very last part of that article, which was not my focus.

My comment to you was in relation to your comment about foreign ownership of our fishing fleets, so no need to get your knickers in a twist.
No you posted an article with not a scintilla of truth in it, then you clumsily tried to move away from your articles rubbish about quotas we've already sold of attempting to make it about jobs instead, which is equally as ludicrous when you consider half Northern Ireland's quota is gobbled up by a single trawler, how many jobs is that, how big is this trawler and finally in typical brexit fashion when you're called out for talking rubbish you try and blame me for it, it'd be hilarious if people with power and responsibility weren't doing the exact same thing to absolve themselves of responsibility and accountability for the things they say and have said

pip08456 08-07-2019 12:21
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36001812)
No you posted an article with not a scintilla of truth in it, then you clumsily tried to move away from your articles rubbish about quotas we've already sold of attempting to make it about jobs instead, which is equally as ludicrous when you consider half Northern Ireland's quota is gobbled up by a single trawler, how many jobs is that, how big is this trawler and finally in typical brexit fashion when you're called out for talking rubbish you try and blame me for it, it'd be hilarious if people with power and responsibility weren't doing the exact same thing to absolve themselves of responsibility and accountability for the things they say and have said
You forget when we exit the EU we will control the quotas. NI may then have 2 trawlers.

OLD BOY 08-07-2019 12:38
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36001803)
I would point out that under our system of Government, it’s Parliament’s role (and responsibility) to check and challenge the work of the Government, make and change laws, check and approve Government spending, and to debate the important issues of the day.

In most places, the negotiating position is agreed by the internal groups, before being presented to the external parties - that way, you don’t have this kerfuffle...
Well, Parliament has made a complete hash of it, and I think most people would agree with me.

---------- Post added at 12:38 ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36001812)
No you posted an article with not a scintilla of truth in it, then you clumsily tried to move away from your articles rubbish about quotas we've already sold of attempting to make it about jobs instead, which is equally as ludicrous when you consider half Northern Ireland's quota is gobbled up by a single trawler, how many jobs is that, how big is this trawler and finally in typical brexit fashion when you're called out for talking rubbish you try and blame me for it, it'd be hilarious if people with power and responsibility weren't doing the exact same thing to absolve themselves of responsibility and accountability for the things they say and have said
I didn't try to move away from anything. If you read my post again, you will see that I was using the link to support the point about bailouts. I did not say anything about fishing quotas at all, but that was mentioned at the end of the link I provided.

I rhen commented on your point about ownership, explaining that it did not matter who owned the rights as long as they used British fishermen.

Who rattled your cage, anyway? No need to get so indignant.

ianch99 08-07-2019 13:27
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 36001510)
And as per usual, I see you fail to highlight nothing absolutely wrong with the Lib Dem’s mantra and profanity laden attire.
Do you mean like this post of mine?

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...postcount=3769

Quote:
I agree the LibDem stunt was just childish however the Brexit Party actions were just disrespectful

TheDaddy 08-07-2019 13:32
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36001816)
Well, Parliament has made a complete hash of it, and I think most people would agree with me.

---------- Post added at 12:38 ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 ----------



I didn't try to move away from anything. If you read my post again, you will see that I was using the link to support the point about bailouts. I did not say anything about fishing quotas at all, but that was mentioned at the end of the link I provided.

I rhen commented on your point about ownership, explaining that it did not matter who owned the rights as long as they used British fishermen.

Who rattled your cage, anyway? No need to get so indignant.
The point about bail outs that proved to be completely false you mean, perhaps I am wrong to keep blaming you but the real culprits aren't here, I've just been listening to another of them, MEP for Yorkshire and Humber Lucy Harris, she basically claimed all leavers knew they were voting to be poorer for 30 years, all leavers knew this and whilst I'm paraphrasing a tiny bit if you listen to her interview, I'm not that much!

---------- Post added at 13:32 ---------- Previous post was at 13:31 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36001815)
You forget when we exit the EU we will control the quotas. NI may then have 2 trawlers.
Keep that quiet Pip or people might start calling it the brexit dividend

ianch99 08-07-2019 13:48
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36001799)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8991351.html

These views may have been influenced by the fact we’ve moved from

"easiest deal in the world"

to

"" Determined to leave come what may"
All part of the populist revisionism. I suspect Historians are planning books on this period in our history as we speak.

I have just come back from a weekend in Brussels. Really nice place to visit, very friendly people who make the most excellent beer :)

We visited the House of European History which is next door to the Parliament building. Fascinating discussion on how Europe has evolved over the centuries.

I didn't raise the subject of Brexit .. just too embarrassing ..

Hugh 08-07-2019 13:57
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36001816)
Well, Parliament has made a complete hash of it, and I think most people would agree with me.

---------- Post added at 12:38 ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 ----------



I didn't try to move away from anything. If you read my post again, you will see that I was using the link to support the point about bailouts. I did not say anything about fishing quotas at all, but that was mentioned at the end of the link I provided.

I rhen commented on your point about ownership, explaining that it did not matter who owned the rights as long as they used British fishermen.

Who rattled your cage, anyway? No need to get so indignant.
The Government made a hash of it (by not involving anyone outside the Government), not Parliament.

Who do the public blame? The Government (mostly).

https://capx.co/who-does-the-public-...e-brexit-mess/
Quote:
Ipsos MORI’s latest poll, conducted Saturday to Wednesday, also asked who would be held responsible in the event of a no deal Brexit, with respondents asked to choose two or three options from a list of who would be responsible.

This presented a less encouraging picture for the government, with almost half (48 per cent, up 13 points since December) saying that they would be to blame, and about a third (35 per cent, up 4) saying Tory MPs, just ahead of the EU (32 per cent, up 5).

Brexit campaigners would be blamed by 28 per cent (down 7), still above Remain campaigners (23 per cent, up 9) although the gap between them is much smaller. Labour was also on 23 per cent (up 4) and other parties were unchanged on 10 per cent.

OLD BOY 08-07-2019 14:32
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy;36001821[B
]The point about bail outs that proved to be completely false you mean, [/B]perhaps I am wrong to keep blaming you but the real culprits aren't here, I've just been listening to another of them, MEP for Yorkshire and Humber Lucy Harris, she basically claimed all leavers knew they were voting to be poorer for 30 years, all leavers knew this and whilst I'm paraphrasing a tiny bit if you listen to her interview, I'm not that much!
I get it that you believe one link over another.

As for Lucy Harris, I don't know where she is coming from and I certainly don't believe that Britain will be poorer for the next 30 years! That was one hell of a gaffe.

There will be some downsides, but there are plenty of upsides ready to be exploited. As I've said before, it is difficult to be precise because everything depends on our entrepreneurs and government initiatives. I must say that I like some of the things Boris has been saying about that recently, despite the worries I have about Boris himself.

With support for businesses and the right level of taxation, there will be a lot of new wealth created. If Singapore can do it, so can we, and tax free ports is a good start.

Hugh 08-07-2019 16:30
Re: Brexit
 
Singapore - population 5.6 million, size 280 square miles (approx. 20x14 miles in size).

U.K. - population 67 million, size 94,000 square miles.

Singapore is less than half the size of London, is a one party state with draconian laws - no thanks...

Pierre 08-07-2019 17:08
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36001831)
Singapore - population 5.6 million, size 280 square miles (approx. 20x14 miles in size).

U.K. - population 67 million, size 94,000 square miles.

Singapore is less than half the size of London, is a one party state with draconian laws - no thanks...

1andrew1 08-07-2019 18:21
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36001828)
I get it that you believe one link over another.

As for Lucy Harris, I don't know where she is coming from and I certainly don't believe that Britain will be poorer for the next 30 years! That was one hell of a gaffe.

There will be some downsides, but there are plenty of upsides ready to be exploited. As I've said before, it is difficult to be precise because everything depends on our entrepreneurs and government initiatives. I must say that I like some of the things Boris has been saying about that recently, despite the worries I have about Boris himself.

With support for businesses and the right level of taxation, there will be a lot of new wealth created. If Singapore can do it, so can we, and tax free ports is a good start.
As I posted earlier, business is not crying out for tax cuts. They want bureaucracy-free, speedy access to Europe and freedom of movement. The latter is starting to be heard now that Theresa May is in the departure lounge but the former is still a threat.
Not unreasonable for anyone to favour two fact-checking websites over a piece in an anti-EU newspaper.

---------- Post added at 18:21 ---------- Previous post was at 18:16 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36001820)
Do you mean like this post of mine?

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/show...postcount=3769
Your detractors could do worse than take a leaf out of your book on presenting a balanced perspective.

denphone 08-07-2019 18:32
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36001816)
Well, Parliament has made a complete hash of it, and I think most people would agree with me.
Its more like the perpetual internecine civil war within the Conservative party which frankly made things pretty well impossible to come to a cohesion agreement facilitating our withdrawal from the EU..

papa smurf 08-07-2019 18:34
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36001824)
All part of the populist revisionism. I suspect Historians are planning books on this period in our history as we speak.

I have just come back from a weekend in Brussels. Really nice place to visit, very friendly people who make the most excellent beer :)

We visited the House of European History which is next door to the Parliament building. Fascinating discussion on how Europe has evolved over the centuries.

I didn't raise the subject of Brexit .. just too embarrassing ..
One last look before Armageddon eh.

OLD BOY 08-07-2019 18:35
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36001831)
Singapore - population 5.6 million, size 280 square miles (approx. 20x14 miles in size).

U.K. - population 67 million, size 94,000 square miles.

Singapore is less than half the size of London, is a one party state with draconian laws - no thanks...
I don't see what size has to do with it, and I did not suggest at all that the UK should be a one party state with draconian laws. You do stretch things to make your arguments, don't you, Hugh?

ianch99 08-07-2019 18:37
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36001849)
One last look before Armageddon eh.
Not really. Have always wanted to go there .. loads of history which I like. Plus, the beer *is* most excellent.

OLD BOY 08-07-2019 18:39
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36001851)
Not really. Have always wanted to go there .. loads of history which I like. Plus, the beer *is* most excellent.
I thought it was only lager out there?

denphone 08-07-2019 18:39
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36001851)
Not really. Have always wanted to go there .. loads of history which I like. Plus, the beer *is* most excellent.
They say the frites are nice over there according to some of my family.

Sephiroth 08-07-2019 18:50
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36001851)
Not really. Have always wanted to go there .. loads of history which I like. Plus, the beer *is* most excellent.
Apart from Hoegaarden I intensely dislike Belgian beers! I do like Belgian Eel in Green Sauce with Frites.

Whenever I go to Europe, which is frequent, I always end up discussing Brexit. I watch with amusement when the people talking to me concede that they hadn't thought about how Germany rigged the Euro and France ensure that the CAP suits them and only them. Of course, it doesn't change their minds about the EU but it does enlighten them as to how the Brits, who think differently from them, can arrive at a Brexit decision.

The rest of the Brexit discussion is an embarrassment! I've got another one in Vienna this coming weekend.

papa smurf 08-07-2019 18:57
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36001853)
They say the frites are nice over there according to some of my family.
The chips are nice in Cleethorpes.

Hugh 08-07-2019 20:54
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36001850)
I don't see what size has to do with it, and I did not suggest at all that the UK should be a one party state with draconian laws. You do stretch things to make your arguments, don't you, Hugh?
Economies of scale - if you have a small land mass and a small population, it’s easier and simpler to do things; you don’t have extended infrastructure and large population to support.

nomadking 08-07-2019 20:56
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36001800)
I would point out that we already have a deal with the EU ready to go. We would also be able to get the backstop sorted out if Parliament did not keep interfering with our negotiating position.
What deal is that? All that is on offer is a delay until end of 2020. After that it is still "no deal".

1andrew1 08-07-2019 21:07
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36001876)
Economies of scale - if you have a small land mass and a small population, it’s easier and simpler to do things; you don’t have extended infrastructure and large population to support.
Exactly, GCSE economics.

ianch99 08-07-2019 21:24
Re: Brexit
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36001852)
I thought it was only lager out there?
Yes plus others esp. wheat beers which I like. Here's one I had:

Attachment 27965

1andrew1 08-07-2019 21:43
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36001852)
I thought it was only lager out there?
Stella and Juliper are two bland lagers that dominate by volume, but Belgium is known for its wide range of beers made famous at one stage in the UK by Belgo.

Great selection here https://www.independent.co.uk/extras...-a7875611.html

Mr K 08-07-2019 21:50
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36001856)
The chips are nice in Cleethorpes.
Desperate last ditch slogan from the Cleethorpes tourist board, before it sinks ? ;)

---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:47 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36001816)
Well, Parliament has made a complete hash of it, and I think most people would agree with me.
You think wrong.

Parliament has been our saviour, its the Government that have cocked things up. It stopped TM's crap deal which, whatever side of this argument you are on, has to be a good thing.

Hugh 08-07-2019 21:57
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36001854)
Apart from Hoegaarden I intensely dislike Belgian beers! I do like Belgian Eel in Green Sauce with Frites.

Whenever I go to Europe, which is frequent, I always end up discussing Brexit. I watch with amusement when the people talking to me concede that they hadn't thought about how Germany rigged the Euro and France ensure that the CAP suits them and only them. Of course, it doesn't change their minds about the EU but it does enlighten them as to how the Brits, who think differently from them, can arrive at a Brexit decision.

The rest of the Brexit discussion is an embarrassment! I've got another one in Vienna this coming weekend.
Yes, because every one in all the different European countries thinks the same way...

OLD BOY 08-07-2019 22:27
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36001876)
Economies of scale - if you have a small land mass and a small population, it’s easier and simpler to do things; you don’t have extended infrastructure and large population to support.
Hold on! Weren't you one of those agreeing that we could not make our way in the world because we were up against bigger countries, like China and the US? Now it's good to be small according to you.

Amazing how opinions can change to suit the protaganists! :p:

---------- Post added at 22:26 ---------- Previous post was at 22:23 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36001880)
Exactly, GCSE economics.
You've changed your tune, too, Andrew. Little Singapore is doing better than us with the sort of policies Boris is considering. And yet you said we couldn't survive against the big boys.

Well, if Singapore can do well, so can we.

---------- Post added at 22:27 ---------- Previous post was at 22:26 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36001878)
What deal is that? All that is on offer is a delay until end of 2020. After that it is still "no deal".
The withdrawal agreement, of course. By the end of 2020, the expectation was that a trade deal would be in place.

1andrew1 08-07-2019 22:50
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36001892)
You've changed your tune, too, Andrew. Little Singapore is doing better than us with the sort of policies Boris is considering. And yet you said we couldn't survive against the big boys.

Well, if Singapore can do well, so can we.
Not atall. I've never said we can't survive against the big boys. My ambition extends beyond your apparent ambition of survival to optimising our position in the world both economically and politically.
Singapore is a very small country which can focus on a few things in the same way that Luxembourg does. The UK is far larger with historical industrial legacies so can't follow Singapore's route. It can either be part of a larger bloc like the EU (which helped turn the country around from being the sick man of Europe) or it can be stuck between the EU, China, etc and do its best.

Other reasons why it won't work are detailed here:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...emier-lee-says
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/27/u...ntl/index.html

---------- Post added at 22:50 ---------- Previous post was at 22:49 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36001892)
The withdrawal agreement, of course. By the end of 2020, the expectation was that a trade deal would be in place.
Totally agree. ;)

OLD BOY 09-07-2019 07:11
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36001896)
Not atall. I've never said we can't survive against the big boys. My ambition extends beyond your apparent ambition of survival to optimising our position in the world both economically and politically.
Singapore is a very small country which can focus on a few things in the same way that Luxembourg does. The UK is far larger with historical industrial legacies so can't follow Singapore's route. It can either be part of a larger bloc like the EU (which helped turn the country around from being the sick man of Europe) or it can be stuck between the EU, China, etc and do its best.
I think I'm correct in saying that you claimed the larger countries would be calling the shots with trade deal negotiations (ignoring the fact that wei are one of the largest economies on the planet). Now you are saying we cannot learn from Singapore because we are too big. This betrays a very defeatist mindset and I don't buy it.

We were indeed the sick man of Europe during the 1970s. Guess who was in power at the time? Once again, Labour had brought this country to its knees.It was Maggie who came to the rescue. :Yes:

TheDaddy 09-07-2019 07:36
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36001906)
I think I'm correct in saying that you claimed the larger countries would be calling the shots with trade deal negotiations (ignoring the fact that wei are one of the largest economies on the planet). Now you are saying we cannot learn from Singapore because we are too big. This betrays a very defeatist mindset and I don't buy it.

We were indeed the sick man of Europe during the 1970s. Guess who was in power at the time? Once again, Labour had brought this country to its knees.It was Maggie who came to the rescue. :Yes:
Labour were in power all that time, from the mid sixties to very late seventies, it was them that brought in the three day week and them that sneakily signed us up for Europe was it

denphone 09-07-2019 07:46
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36001909)
Labour were in power all that time, from the mid sixties to very late seventies, it was them that brought in the three day week and them that sneakily signed us up for Europe was it
OB does seem to forget facts sometimes conveniently.

Quote:
Responsibility for British policy during the 1960s was shared between the Conservative Government of 1951-64 and the Labour Government of 1964-70. There were three Prime Ministers during the period, Macmillan (Conservative 1957-63), Home (1963-4) and Wilson (1964-70). General elections were held in 1959, 1964, 1966 and 1970. During the 1959-64 Parliament, the Conservatives held a majority of just short of 100; at the start of the 1964-6 Parliament, the Labour Government had an overall majority of just three; and during the 1966-70 Parliament a majority of around 100.
Quote:
The conversion of the Labour Government seemed to complete the construction of a domestic consensus on EC membership. Governments of both major parties had come to similar conclusions about the need to join.
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/politics/cbl/brit/scene.htm

Conservative Government, 1970–74

Quote:
Heath took Britain into the Common Market (later renamed The European Union and again renamed The EEC) on 1 January 1973 after winning the decisive vote in the House by 336-244. It was, says biographer John Campbell, "Heath's finest hour."[60] Meanwhile, on the domestic front, galloping inflation led him into confrontation with some of the most powerful trade unions. Energy shortages related to the oil shock resulted in much of the country's industry working a Three-Day Week to conserve power. In an attempt to bolster his government, Heath called an election for 28 February 1974. The result was inconclusive: the Conservative Party received a plurality of votes cast, but the Labour Party gained a plurality of seats due to the Ulster Unionist MPs refusing to support the Conservatives. Heath began negotiations with leaders of the Liberal Party to form a coalition, but, when these failed, resigned as Prime Minister.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politi...970%E2%80%9374

Damien 09-07-2019 08:16
Re: Brexit
 
We're closing this thread until there are actual developments regarding Brexit. It's become too angry and it's causing too many bad-tempered arguments. There is no point going around in circles with increasingly acrimonious disputes about exactly the same points.

We did this at Easter and it calmed things down.

Discussions about Brexit in the Government or Tory leadership threads are allowed so long as they relate directly to another topic in hand but general Brexit talk will also be removed.


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