Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

There seems to be 'hate' on both sides, it doesn’t bode well. If people don't like the status quo, they'll vote for change, regardless of what the change is.
Saying how bad anyone else will be, isn't enough.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

There has been no denying any such thing. A Democratic decision that has already taken place in 2014. That result saw the Scottish people, opt to convincingly decide to remain in the UK....In a once in a.... not my words but the SNP!

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The uncomfortable truth more like.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

If roughly 50% of the people are “full of hate” then Scotland has far more to worry about. If, on the other hand, it’s simply a lazy trope to dismiss reasonable political beliefs then it perhaps says more about the severe limitations of the other side to engage with the substantive point.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The next generation is here, it will be have been about 10 years by the time of any vote. 10 years worth of new voters.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It's not the people it's the SNP that are full of hate.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

If roughly 50% of the population are considering voting for a party “full of hate” I’m not sure the value of the distinction.

Do they either not see it, or worse still agree with it?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

They're doing such a great job with the devolved powers they have now aren't they?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

We will have to see if they vote for the Snp, other party's are available.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It would appear yes, if as expected they're the largest party that's the verdict of the voters.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Didn't they vote to remain in the UK that was part of the EU? Things have changed since that vote, I'm not sure why people are so hell bent on them not having another vote.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

No, we didn’t.

The referendum question had no caveats - it was “Should Scotland become an independent country?” With the available answers limited to “yes” or “no”.

Obviously the losing side will argue that things change. If it hadn’t been the EU it would have been something else. I don’t think anyone can seriously argue that the SNP would have just given up no matter what.

One thing to bear in mind is that any of the “but we were promised” arguments, like EU membership, are being made by people who weren’t inclined to listen to those promises in any case. The argument about promised EU membership is being made by separatists, on behalf of those who did not, and do not, support them.

I’m very happy to confirm, as someone who believes in Scotland’s place as part of the UK, that separatists do not speak for me. They do not get to explain to anyone else why I voted the way I did in 2014, they do not get to tell anyone how I feel about it now, and they certainly don’t get to claim to know what I want to happen next.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

They don't need to speak for you, it simply has to resonate with enough voters to prompt them to buy into the SNP manifesto commitment around it.

While it may well have been something else had the UK remained in the EU, it would have to be compelling to enough voters to persuade them to back the SNP on that basis.

Equally what people want to happen next is for them to decide in elections and any subsequent referendum if it takes place.

Scottish voters at a fixed point in time don't get to unilaterally decide their opinion is the only one that matters for 25, 40, 100 years regardless of what happens in the intervening period.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Correct but if the Scottish electorate votes for the SNP then they are knowingly asking their government to hold a referendum on independence. People and parties change their minds.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You might not have done but others might have done.

Again, why are people so hell bent on there not being another referendum. Whether people like it or not, a massive change happened to the UK after the result. I believe that would warrant another referendum based on that outcome.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I think there's some understandable reluctance on the part of Brexiters to acknowledge that Brexit also increased the chances of the end of the UK. Their solution to cutting the link between the two events is to do all they can to prevent another independence referendum.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Wow ... another mind reader :rolleyes:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

:D
I can't even begin to imagine how long the negotiations might last for! By the time they're concluded, DTT may no longer exist and England may have won the Six Nations!

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I'm not opposed to Scotland having a referendum, but I am opposed to having to pay for it ;)

If they want it, go ahead, but fund it with Scottish taxes, not English :D

oh, and those living in England can't vote :p:


*The 2016 referendum cost £130 million, a Scottish one should be much less, easy peasy eh

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

They/I couldn't last time (unless they were UK Armed Forces registered to vote in Scotland)...

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Absolute bullshit, you’re absolutely pants reading people’s minds!

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

oh come now Mick, I'm sure there were a couple of people - maybe even double figures - that thought it would increase the chances of the end of the UK.

If we go down the route of statistics and percentages though it's probably negligible, but enough for Andrew :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Seph has generously acknowledged it. ;)

But when it comes to Scottish independence, it's a very interesting time to be alive, whatever your views. The emergence of the Alba Party adds an unknown dimension as well so we're in for an interesting Summer. Pull up a seat, grab some popcorn and watch your screens as events unfurl before us.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Exactly, since when is the will of the people a once in a lifetime thing, keep returning a party with independence as it's key policy then keep expecting to answer the same question and that question should be left for those that live there alone imo

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Couldn't agree more.

Brexit was a game changer. The same people who were so keen on having that vote, seek to deny others having a 'leave' choice.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

as i understand it they will be granted a referendum the next time krankie tells the truth, don't hold your breath.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Reluctantly, you have to admit you have a point.

The failure here is really with Labour and Tory to have a plan for Scotland.

That said, Scottish independence is something that affects the U.K. as a whole, not just Scotland and therefore you can’t reasonably expect to put the rest of the U.K. through this every 4-5 years.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I'm genuinely confused, I would have thought that some of the people here with their dislike of most things (everything?) EU related would be glad to see the back of a large proportion of the population that was pro the thing that really seems to keep them awake at night yet they seem to be the most strongly apposed :confused:

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Agreed.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

That's why the whole of the UK should get to vote on it.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You cannot deny a vote that has already happened, took place and leave lost.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Where does that end? Sounds like the EU countries should have had a vote in the 2016 Brexit referendum too on that logic.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It’s a once in a lifetime thing because the SNP said so. Also weren’t the SNP still the biggest party in Scotland prior to the 2014 referendum and Scotland still decided to Remain?

Just because the separatists are the largest party does not equate the Country wants independence, the 2014 referendum showed this.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The hate us how do you think that vote would've gone?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Punished us by keeping us in the Union. :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

And they're politicians, they lie, they manipulate, they move goalposts, if you want their word on anything you'd better get it in writing and preferably legally binding or else it's meaningless and worthless, shame really, I long for a time when loyalty and honour were more than words and morality couldn't be bought but we are where we are and society as a whole gets the politicians it deserves

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Question and no l have no idea what the answer is. Would England & Wales ( which are classed as one country ) What a ever people might think. Be better off with out Scotland and for that matter ni . Just wondering what a border would look like . !

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

If NI and Scotland left then it would be the Kingdom of England & Wales. The border with Scotland would presumably be minimal at first if Scotland was in a single market with E&W. By the time Scotland got round to joining the EU, I suspect E&W would be thinking along the same lines too.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

^^
bait

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

^ ^
hooked

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

If Scotland left and had a customs union with the UK, would they be allowed to join the EU? Just look at the current NI-GB trade situation.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

They couldn't. Hence, the need for Scotland and E&W to both be in or both be outside the Single Market.
You can change some things but geography is one if the trickier things to change.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It was a once-in-a-lifetime vote, so per the SNP's definition of that, we're due another vote in 2024. :D

I do think the UK or its successors will rejoin the EU but not that soon. And the EU is not exactly making a strong case for membership at the moment! But an independent Scotland would find it tricky to join the Single Market if E&W didn't join at the same time.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Any campaign to rejoin the EU would have to be fought under the premise that we would better off being governed by the EU, and not under the pretence of trade.

I never see that argument winning, ever.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

We could use their vaccine roll out as a template;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I disagree on that assumption but I'll leave it there as we have a dedicated thread on that topic and my reference to rejoining the EU was in the context of the Anglo-Scottish border.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Radical solution #1

Can we invade Scotland and take it over? It would give the armed forces something to do and would be a great 'live' test of some new armaments :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Considering a reasonable proportion of the Armed Forces are from North of the Border, that could be problematic... ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Sturgeon making the point that gaming the system would raise questions over the legitimacy of a majority of MSPs/majority of voters voting for parties in favour of a second referendum.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I think she's right. If she gets a majority after May - any sort of majority at all - then the argument about the legitimacy of her demands for a referendum will begin. The last thing she needs at that point is any excuse for her opponents to start looking at the actual level of voter support for the various parties at the ballot box rather than the composition of the Holyrood chamber. If the majority in the chamber is grossly out of proportion to the level of nationalist support at the ballot box, that will only serve to delegitimise her demands.

If the SNP can get a small, outright majority on 44% of the vote - as they did in 2011 - she will be happier than that than having a large nationalist majority in the chamber, but with no party having a clear majority of votes.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Considering we couldn't fulfill the Grand Old Duke of York's requirements for marching men up and down hills I'd say invading anywhere is problematic

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Just drop a 1£ coin on the floor then take em out while they're fighting over it ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The Scots don't hate the English - just the RichardHead ones who make very poor stereotypical, for lack of a better word, jokes... ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I was referring to the EU hating us.

i would have said drop a £2 coin but didn't want to start a Scottish civil war.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Be good if we were just all nice to each other but the 'hate'/ xenophobia started in Little England. It's delivered up to us daily in our wonderful excuse for newspapers, who will settle for nothing less than war with Europe. Scottish independence has been made more likely by this toxic culture.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Nicola Sturgeon has her faults but where is the evidence of her hating all things English?

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

First polls putting the Salmond party on 3%. Ouch that'll hurt his ego.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

none, then...

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It's nice to see that Salmond is helping get ABBA back together.

And wee Krankie is back on her soap box.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Just like shortarse Rishi.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It’s OK, he just stands on piles of his wife’s money... :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

At least it's hers and not the Conservative Party's.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The FT has costed Scottish independence at £1,765 per person per year. But didn't they say something similar about Brexit? ;)
https://www.ft.com/content/ff6c0f6b-...a-878e2260cf3e
Non-subscribers shoud Google "Independent Scotland would face a large hole in its public finances"

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The difference between the UK covering the cost of £1,765 per person, and Scotland doing so, ought to be obvious. The UK economy as a whole is broad and dynamic enough to cope. It has been designed to be that way by generations of policy choices. Scotland does not have that depth or breadth within itself ... there’s no reason why it should, because its economy is not designed to operate independently. It is designed as a component of the UK economy. That’s not a failing, it’s the whole point of the union (Scotland being effectively bankrupt in 1707).

Converting Scotland’s economic activity into ‘an economy’ would be a difficult and expensive process, causing a great deal of hardship to the very people presently in thrall to the SNP’s seductive promises of freebies for all.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It's all about sovereignty, facts and figures are irrelevant. Sound familiar? ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

With Scotland's share of the covid bill and the monies owed to the EU under the withdrawal agreement monies going to be tight.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Maybe they can use the North Sea oil as payment that we've pilfered over the years.
Anyway Scotland voted to Remain, England voted to Leave, so England should pay the EU bill.
Nicola should really use me as a negotiator ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

No one wants the oil the world is changing, we voted as a single entity, you should negotiate for them, ill get the pop corn in.:)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

England was propping up Scotland long before the oil was discovered. Even with their share included in the GERS accounts, their annual deficit is still huge.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Very.

The difference is that the UK can afford the hit. Scotland alone however is far less able to do so and would be disconnecting itself from a far more deeply integrated and valuable internal market. While the arguments around Brexit and Scexit are superficially similar in some ways, that’s all it is. The consequences for Scotland of failing to grasp that would be profound.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Many people in Scotland , do not want Indy2, The Scottish Government cannot run the country , neglecting housing, education, NHS, just to put money towards Indy2, Full of crooks and unworthy candidates, as for the New Alba party they should be in an asylum ,Scotland Needs Westminster, and we love the English people, we have family in England and we should never separate, God help us if they get their way, we cannot all pack up and leave Scotland at our age

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

I'm not so sure about that papa ;)

https://www.iogp.org/oil-natgas-in-everyday-life/

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Currently 45%-45% so all to play for on both sides of the debate!

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

That's old school , everything will be made out of electrons by 2030 and run on wind, and solar power. Gretard has shown us the way, Scotland will be totally buggered by then and will be running on peat and charity donations ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

No problem then, don't vote for the SNP.
However if the Scots keep voting them in on a platform of another vote, then that's democracy.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

The problem is that (until the Alba Party appeared) the separatist vote really had nowhere to go except to the SNP. It’s a minority, but it’s the biggest minority. Politics-as-usual is possible through three mainstream parties, one of the left, one centrist and left-leaning, and one centre right (though notably less right than its English branch). The unionist vote is therefore neatly split, and the only party that can plausibly run a minority administration is the SNP. There are doubtless a few dingbats who believe in the union then overcompensate by voting for the party that’s appropriated all the saltires, but the SNP vote is essentially the separatist vote.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

IF Krankie was to get her wish, then the UK should adopt a new flag, first remove the Scottish blue, the help keep the Welsh happy by putting the Dragon on our flag.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

SNP reported to police over fraud


POLICE have launched a probe into the SNPs finances following allegations of fraud.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...olyrood-latest

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

As part of the UK, Scotland should pay it’s share.

---------- Post added at 13:27 ---------- Previous post was at 13:25 ----------

If the Scots really don’t want Indy2, they should jolly well stop supporting the SNP!

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

"jolly well"???

Warning, warning!!

Richmal Crompton is alive and well and posting on CF... ;)

Hopefully, we can tuck into lashings of ginger beer later with Ginger, Henry, and Douglas... :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

You do realise, do you not, that “the Scots” and “the electorate in Scotland” are two wholly different things, I hope? And that in any case you can’t talk about “them” as some sort of homogenous mass?

“The Scots” do not vote for the SNP. Up to around half of voters in Scotland vote for them (though normally a little less than half). The voting system for Holyrood is not perfect, just as it isn’t perfect for Westminster either. The number of seats won does not precisely reflect the number of votes won. And in any case, the SNP is a minority administration. The only reason they have been able to cause such constitutional mischief in the last 5 years is because the Scottish Green Party reneged on an election promise that they would only support another referendum under certain very specific conditions. These have not been met (not even close), but the Greens have become the useful idiots of the separatist movement in Scotland, and have been giving their unqualified support for efforts to win a new referendum for several years now.

There are 6 Green MSPs at the moment, which is *just* enough to create a separatist majority in the chamber.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

That is the problem, They are bad enough just now. So if they get ever get independence . God help us. We wold have NO one to help us out.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

That would mean he’d have to post something meaningful and accurate to aid a debate, don’t wish for the moon.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Really?

Do you mean like "Covid is a flu"?

---------- Post added at 11:52 ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 ----------

I wish that you would have a sense of humour, but that's like wishing for the moon... ;)

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Are we allowed to have and display a sense of humour nowadays?

I don't mean on here, but in general. Going by the amount of untalented unfunny comedians shown on the TV lately, and the ascendancy of the 'ooh I'm offended' culture, I'm guessing the answer is no :D

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Thinking about the new Alba party, now this is going to split the vote between the SNP and Alba.


So neither is likely to get a majority, so who do they team up with, as I can't see Salmond or Sturgeon teaming up following recent events?


I guess the upside is that this could kill the independence vote

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

It doesn't really work like that under the Holyrood voting system. As well as the constituency vote (same as Westminster) we all get a second 'list' vote which adds additional MSPs, taking account both of the number of list votes gained, but also the number of MSPs each party has gained in the constituency contest.

The Alba party is only standing on the list. It is not standing in any constituencies. If everyone who votes SNP in a constituency, then votes Alba on the list, the likelihood is that the Holyrood chamber would have around 60 SNP MSPs, all from constituency contests, and a further 30 Alba MSPs, all from the regional lists.

Nicola Sturgeon has argued that nationalist voters absolutely should not do this because that result would be such an egregious abuse of a voting system designed to create proportionality and fair representation, it would only end up harming the demand for a second referendum. The risk for her now though is that most, but not all, SNP supporters do as she asks and vote SNP on both the constituency and the list ballots. If the SNP bleeds a few list votes it may lose what list MSPs it has, without the Alba Party itself gaining enough votes to pick those seats up instead.

It's very hard to work out what might happen, because the voting system in use in Scotland is really only designed to repair the main deficiency in the first-past-the-post constituency contest, which is that a party may have a good showing across the country, but come second everywhere and end up with nothing. If the list becomes full of parties that only stand on the list, and do not put up candidates in individual constituencies too, then there is an increasing risk of perverse outcomes.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
 

Whenever I see the polling predictions of how the Scottish will vote, I remember my small group of friends living in Scotland. They all told me in private messages that they would always vote against independence or the SNP, but would never admit that on forums or in conversations with friends or family.

Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?