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-   -   steve bettley sacked..do we have the right? (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33647558)

RizzyKing 23-03-2009 14:13
Re: steve bettley sacked..do we have the right?
 
From everything that we know this was a professional police officer that if a member of the bnp never allowed that to interfere with his duties so for that reason this was unfair. Not being a fan of the bnp i am not sure but didn't they do a family ticket sort of membership thing that may have got this guy on the list without him actually knowing and if that is the case it also makes this more stupid then it already is.

For those saying that belonging to the bnp is more then enough to get a police officer fired would they also support any police officer that is a member of any other political party getting fired because right now much as some of us despise it the bnp are a legal political party. Remember that while the core belief of the bnp is unpalatable in the most polite terms they also have made great efforts to sound and present themself more moderately in recent times tagging onto fears many have and putting themself forward as the solution same as all the other partys.

Womble 23-03-2009 15:48
Re: steve bettley sacked..do we have the right?
 
Whilst I believe the officer deserves the sack, after all he broke the rules, I do find it a bit hypocritical. How is not OK to be a member of the BNP, but is OK to belong to the Black Officers association? http://www.nbpa.co.uk/ How much more segregated can you get?? Can you imagine the outcry if there was a National White Police Officers Association!!

And the BNP serve a purpose,as do Muslim hate preachers, they remind us of the dangers of being complacent

rogerdraig 23-03-2009 16:58
Re: steve bettley sacked..do we have the right?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek S (Post 34760158)
Whilst his sacking was expected I am a little unsure of the legalities of the Police using information obtained illegally against someone.

It does seem that it'll end up in the courts one way or another.
doesnt really matter in this country how the information ( other than torture ) is acquired as if it gets to court a judge can admit any evidence put before him if he wants too

if he really wasn't a member he might stand a chance

but as you said its pointed out before you sign up so other than that above he wont get very far even with an appeal

---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:55 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Womble (Post 34760382)
Whilst I believe the officer deserves the sack, after all he broke the rules, I do find it a bit hypocritical. How is not OK to be a member of the BNP, but is OK to belong to the Black Officers association? http://www.nbpa.co.uk/ How much more segregated can you get?? Can you imagine the outcry if there was a National White Police Officers Association!!

And the BNP serve a purpose,as do Muslim hate preachers, they remind us of the dangers of being complacent
on the BOA i agree that i cant understand how that was allowed i expect the london police have as many welsh officers down there as black policeman but bet that WOA wouldnt be allowed ;)

but i still would say any member of the BNP shouldnt be a police oficer

martyh 23-03-2009 17:56
Re: steve bettley sacked..do we have the right?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 34760282)
From everything that we know this was a professional police officer that if a member of the bnp never allowed that to interfere with his duties so for that reason this was unfair. Not being a fan of the bnp i am not sure but didn't they do a family ticket sort of membership thing that may have got this guy on the list without him actually knowing and if that is the case it also makes this more stupid then it already is.

For those saying that belonging to the bnp is more then enough to get a police officer fired would they also support any police officer that is a member of any other political party getting fired because right now much as some of us despise it the bnp are a legal political party. Remember that while the core belief of the bnp is unpalatable in the most polite terms they also have made great efforts to sound and present themself more moderately in recent times tagging onto fears many have and putting themself forward as the solution same as all the other partys.
:clap:

It seems to me that the ban on police joining the BNP implies that the police force would "prefer it" if they didn't vote for them either otherwise why have the ban in the first place it seems pointless to me to ban someone from joining but allow them to vote.The officers record has to be taken into account also, which as far as i can find out is exemplary,Also according to the original bbc report he didn't join the BNP his brother did it for him without his knowledge.
I agree with most of the postees in this thread that the BNP is not a very pleasant organisation BUT and it's a big but there is a large proportion of the membership who don't subscribe to the hard line beliefs of the past ,i know a lot personaly ,they have meetings in my local once a month when i have been present ,there has never been any "flag waving"or racist chanting ,although i do not doubt that happens at some venues.
The original question for this thread was do we have the right to impose restrictions on peoples personal and political beliefs not whether joining the bnp is right or wrong .. i still believe that the police force has overstepped it's authority

Flyboy 23-03-2009 20:07
Re: steve bottomley sacked..do we have the right?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34759001)
I don't like the BNP one little bit. However i hope that copper sues the police for as much as he can get.
On what grounds? It was a legal and fair dismissal. He broke his terms and conditions of employment.

---------- Post added at 20:33 ---------- Previous post was at 20:30 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 34759007)
So if someone is a Man Utd supporter they should be banned for believing that Man Utd is better than other teams? Should Northerners(just a theoretical example nothing more) be banned because they believe that are better than Southerners?

Then if someone believes that they are there to represent their community as opposed to the community, they should be banned and that applies to a lot(if not the majority) of racial groups.
Sorry, I must have been asleep. When did Manchester United become a racist political party (or any other type of political party for that matter)?

---------- Post added at 20:46 ---------- Previous post was at 20:33 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34759053)
I couldn't resist it. The BNP were in my town recently and they made a short clip of how successful the day was, also how many people took their literature etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg0XwizKRdg

Keep your eye on the girl who takes a leaflet at 1:25, she appears to find it fascinating....
I could hardly stop myself from ROTFPMSL. The caption about the "British Asian" agreeing with them, after a five minute chat, was the best one. If that really happened, why didn't they show it? I would have thought that would have been the scoop of the century.

---------- Post added at 20:54 ---------- Previous post was at 20:46 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by punky (Post 34760074)
I think its wrong that the police service target people's beliefs and not their actions. Its actions that ultimately count. For example, i'd rather have a copper who actively supports a political party, but discharges his duty faithfully and exemplary, rather than the SO19 copper who wasn't part of any political party but refused to guard the Israeli embassy.
But his actions have spoken for themselves, by him joining a racist organisation.

Quote:
I can't find any mention of Bettley's disciplinary record which presumably means its excellent as if there were any dirt on it, someone would have pointed it out.
His disciplinary record is private and confidential, this is why you can't find anything.

---------- Post added at 20:57 ---------- Previous post was at 20:54 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek S (Post 34760158)
Whilst his sacking was expected I am a little unsure of the legalities of the Police using information obtained illegally against someone.

It does seem that it'll end up in the courts one way or another.
It was information that was in the public domain, it does not mater how it got there.

---------- Post added at 21:01 ---------- Previous post was at 20:57 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 34760282)
From everything that we know this was a professional police officer that if a member of the bnp never allowed that to interfere with his duties so for that reason this was unfair. Not being a fan of the bnp i am not sure but didn't they do a family ticket sort of membership thing that may have got this guy on the list without him actually knowing and if that is the case it also makes this more stupid then it already is.
What we can wonder is, if he had to investigate a racialy motuivated attack perpertrated by a BNP memebr. Where would loyalties lay?

Quote:
For those saying that belonging to the bnp is more then enough to get a police officer fired would they also support any police officer that is a member of any other political party getting fired because right now much as some of us despise it the bnp are a legal political party. Remember that while the core belief of the bnp is unpalatable in the most polite terms they also have made great efforts to sound and present themself more moderately in recent times tagging onto fears many have and putting themself forward as the solution same as all the other partys.
The point is that the other parties do have racist core values. They do not have racist consttutions or manifestos.

---------- Post added at 21:07 ---------- Previous post was at 21:01 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogermevans (Post 34760429)
...on the BOA i agree that i cant understand how that was allowed i expect the london police have as many welsh officers down there as black policeman but bet that WOA wouldnt be allowed ;)

but i still would say any member of the BNP shouldnt be a police oficer
But when the police service is still inherently institutionally racist, there is still a need for this association. It promotes good race relations and equality of opportunity, within the police services of the United Kingdom and the wider community.

martyh 23-03-2009 20:55
Re: steve bottomley sacked..do we have the right?
 
[QUOTE=Flyboy;34760524]On what grounds? It was a legal and fair dismissal. He broke his terms and conditions of employment.

the whole point of this discusion is are those terms and conditions legal do the police or indeed any other employer have the right to impose them ...no they don't imo

frogstamper 23-03-2009 21:14
Re: steve bottomley sacked..do we have the right?
 
[QUOTE=martyh;34760621]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyboy (Post 34760524)
On what grounds? It was a legal and fair dismissal. He broke his terms and conditions of employment.

the whole point of this discusion is are those terms and conditions legal do the police or indeed any other employer have the right to impose them ...no they don't imo
If its a question of "do we have the right to impose these rules on police officers", then in my opinion of course we do.
As already pointed out by Derek would be police officers are made well aware of this ruling before they start their careers, how comfortable would any of us feel if this was a Muslim officer who was found out to be a member of some legal Islamic hate group?
From a personal point of view I wouldn't want either of them in a position of authority.

martyh 23-03-2009 21:48
Re: steve bottomley sacked..do we have the right?
 
[QUOTE=frogstamper;34760633]
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 34760621)

If its a question of "do we have the right to impose these rules on police officers", then in my opinion of course we do.
As already pointed out by Derek would be police officers are made well aware of this ruling before they start their careers, how comfortable would any of us feel if this was a Muslim officer who was found out to be a member of some legal Islamic hate group?
From a personal point of view I wouldn't want either of them in a position of authority.
my point is that if anyone wants to join a political organisation no matter how unsavioury then they should be aloud to as a matter of basic freedom but if they are proven to abuse the trust or authority that goes with that position then they should be dealt with by the courts or disciplinary procedures
Ithink it's a shame that a good officer has been lost to the force when they need as many as they can get

Peter_ 23-03-2009 21:56
Re: steve bottomley sacked..do we have the right?
 
[quote=martyh;34760648]
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 34760633)

my point is that if anyone wants to join a political organisation no matter how unsavioury then they should be aloud to as a matter of basic freedom but if they are proven to abuse the trust or authority that goes with that position then they should be dealt with by the courts or disciplinary procedures
Ithink it's a shame that a good officer has been lost to the force when they need as many as they can get
If he was a good officer he would not have felt the need to join a political party that he was informed was a banned organisation when he signed his contract of employment.

No one wants a policeman who thinks he can get away with flouting the rules of his employment because if he has disregarded that rule then how many other rules and regulations has he ignored during his time as an officer, just think about that and ponder it.

It is his kind of attitude thats gets modern policing a bad name.

martyh 23-03-2009 22:19
Re: steve bottomley sacked..do we have the right?
 
[QUOTE=Moldova;34760653]
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 34760648)
If he was a good officer he would not have felt the need to join a political party that he was informed was a banned organisation when he signed his contract of employment.

No one wants a policeman who thinks he can get away with flouting the rules of his employment because if he has disregarded that rule then how many other rules and regulations has he ignored during his time as an officer, just think about that and ponder it.

It is his kind of attitude thats gets modern policing a bad name.
he didn't join his brother did it as part of a family offer to get free membership this hasn't been disputed so we have to take it as true

the BNP is not a banned organisation if it was banned then no-one would be able to vote for them

just because someone joins a political party it does not mean they support all their ideals.Alot of the general population are becomming increasingly sympathetic to SOME of the BNP's ideals whether they admit it or not that doesn't mean they want to kick all non whites out of the country

frogstamper 23-03-2009 22:32
Re: steve bottomley sacked..do we have the right?
 
[QUOTE=martyh;34760664]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moldova (Post 34760653)

he didn't join his brother did it as part of a family offer to get free membership this hasn't been disputed so we have to take it as true

the BNP is not a banned organisation if it was banned then no-one would be able to vote for them

just because someone joins a political party it does not mean they support all their ideals.Alot of the general population are becomming increasingly sympathetic to SOME of the BNP's ideals whether they admit it or not that doesn't mean they want to kick all non whites out of the country
I've posted this question twice now martyh with no response, so I'll give it one last shot.:)
"Would it be acceptable for a Muslim police officer to be a member of a "legal" Islamic hate group".

RizzyKing 23-03-2009 22:48
Re: steve bettley sacked..do we have the right?
 
I'll answer you on that Froggie :) i would have no problem if he left his views at the door when he went to work anymore then i have a problem with this officer being on the bnp membership list even though it is looking increasingly like he never personally joined the bnp. Many people hold personal views that are not always compatable with the jobs they choose but they manage to seperate personal belief and professional responsibility and that seems to be the case here this was an officer with a good record in dealing with all sections of the community.

martyh 23-03-2009 23:02
Re: steve bottomley sacked..do we have the right?
 
[QUOTE=frogstamper;34760673]
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 34760664)

I've posted this question twice now martyh with no response, so I'll give it one last shot.:)
"Would it be acceptable for a Muslim police officer to be a member of a "legal" Islamic hate group".
He should have the right to belong to any legal organisation he wants to and as i've ALREADY stated if he breaks the law during any support of the organisation then that should be dealt with by the courts or dicsiplinary procedures

this is all about the freedom to choose what you want to believe and as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else then it's ok .If your employer imposed a restriction on joining the labour party because he didn't agree with their principles would you like it

---------- Post added at 00:02 ---------- Previous post was yesterday at 23:58 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 34760686)
I'll answer you on that Froggie :) i would have no problem if he left his views at the door when he went to work anymore then i have a problem with this officer being on the bnp membership list even though it is looking increasingly like he never personally joined the bnp. Many people hold personal views that are not always compatable with the jobs they choose but they manage to seperate personal belief and professional responsibility and that seems to be the case here this was an officer with a good record in dealing with all sections of the community.
thank you RizzyKing,i have answered him twice but you put it much better than me

frogstamper 23-03-2009 23:31
Re: steve bettley sacked..do we have the right?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 34760686)
I'll answer you on that Froggie :) i would have no problem if he left his views at the door when he went to work anymore then i have a problem with this officer being on the bnp membership list even though it is looking increasingly like he never personally joined the bnp. Many people hold personal views that are not always compatable with the jobs they choose but they manage to seperate personal belief and professional responsibility and that seems to be the case here this was an officer with a good record in dealing with all sections of the community.
Well Rizzy maybe if the guy behaved in the way you describe it may not be a problem, but in my opinion if an officer were to go as far as to join either the BNP or its Islamic equivalent they certainly wouldn't be the sort I'd like to see policing our cities.
In the case of the officer in question if his brother really did put his name down for membership without his knowledge then obviously he has been treated harshly, then again if not he knew what the outcome would be.
When all's said and done surely we want the best calibre of officer we can get and if that means saying no to memberships of far right and hate parties then in my opinion that's correct.

Peter_ 24-03-2009 05:42
Re: steve bettley sacked..do we have the right?
 
Quite simply he knows that he is not allowed to be a member of any such group and it does not matter that it was his brother who signed him up as he has a mind of his own and can decide rightly or wrongly if he actually wanted to be a member of such a group, plus if his brother joined and decided "oh hang on Steve want a bit of this!" and signed him up, I would say that is because he knew his brothers thoughts on becoming a member and did it for him.

You become a member of group then you lose your job, he could have told the BNP that he was not interested and when he received his membership card/details and informed his bosses of the error, but he did not, and if that was me I would have done exactly that.

So failed on all counts and was therefore deservedly sacked.


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