Re: BNP loses seats
 

I am currently a free, independent person who has the right, should I choose, to live a life in which I need carry no personally identifying material; nor any material that a police officer can demand I produce in order to prove who I am. I could move to Sutherland and farm a croft, with no bank account, no pension, no car, no nothing, if I choose.

If an ID card were introduced, the state gains the right to require me to identify myself to one of its representatives, should they have reason. Thus, a liberty that I currently have is removed. Hence 'infringement of civil liberty.'

We can argue about whether this loss is justified given the current circumstances, but the 'loss of civil liberty' is self evident.

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Would law-abiding citizens of the UK have objections to them knowing its sorting out the people who are not. I doubt their will be that many

Re: BNP loses seats
 

hmm, you seem to have something against me I'm afraid, probably stems back from previous unrelated discussions. You'll no doubt say its a figment of my imagination but its pretty evident to me and for the life of me I do not understand it.

I've never said the only people who have a go at ID cards are criminals. But you've decided to lump me in with that group who do (whoever they are) to make a point, so fair enough.

My point was simply that when we hear about civil liberty infringements it always seems to be criminals who are complaining about it, or its been raised on their behalf. I was just trying to temper the debate by saying that there are people who are scared to go out at night, people who are petrified to walk past a group of kids hanging round shops. These peoples civil liberties and rights never seem to be raised. Yet people can sue folk they've burgled for infringing their civil rights.

Re: BNP loses seats
 

I don't understand it either ... I can honestly say I don't believe I 'have something against you'. There are folks on this forum with whom I've had almost violent disagreements with in the past and I don't believe my subsequent discussions with them have been coloured by that. In your case I can't even remember having a heated debate with you before.

As for your point, as I posted earlier, I thought it possible I had completely misunderstood your post by assuming it was an agreement with and a continuation of what defiant had said. It appears that this is the case, and as I said, I apologise for that.

Re: BNP loses seats
 

I think your doubts are based on your own prejudice rather than on any facts. Numerous attempts to introduce ID cards in the UK have failed due to public opposition. Unless you are suggesting that the majority of the public are not law abiding, your doubts are wrong.

Re: BNP loses seats
 

No I'm a law abiding British citizen with nothing to hide and don't know of any of my friends or family who have. Therefore I don’t see them objecting to something that will help track people that do. I think its pretty stupid to object to something that will

Re: BNP loses seats
 

If the extent of your argument is 'I think it's pretty stupid to object' then that kind of proves my point really doesn't it? How about a list of reasons why it is stupid to object, and why ID cards are the effective solution you think they are?

Re: BNP loses seats
 

:disturbd: :LOL:

Re: BNP loses seats
 

took yer time ... :D

are you going to join in the fun then?

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Haha thats gr8 that. You call my reasons stupid lets see your reasons for not having them

Re: BNP loses seats
 

:rolleyes:

I already did post a reason. Here it is again:

Now, read my last post again. I didn't call your reasons 'stupid'; I said that I think if all you have to say on the issue is that 'it's stupid to object' to ID cards, it proves my point that you don't actually have any reasons.

Anyone can say 'I like this because it's good' or 'I don't like this because it's stupid.' I'm asking you to do a little better than that and actually post some reasons why you believe what you do.

I'll give you a clue: 'Because it's stupid' is not a reason.

Re: BNP loses seats
 

I was under the impression that they could already under certain circumstances.

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Police can ask me who I am, but there is no documentation that I am legally obliged to produce in support.

Re: BNP loses seats
 

One of the reasons why things are in such a mess in this country. Nice one, you fight the system and help those who wont to do wrong

Re: BNP loses seats
 

The only way to guarantee a crime-free society would be to lock everyone up and only let people out who could prove they were law-abiding people. Anything less than this risks criminals wandering our streets. Or you might take a less extreme approach and abandon the presumption of innocence: accuse someone of something and put the burden of proof on them to show that they did not do it, rather than on the prosecution to prove that they did.

Both of these are 'liberties' we currently enjoy that you could say are helping those who want to do wrong. Any civilised society accepts the risk of criminals going free as the price of freedom and liberty for the majority. In this sense, if you go for ID cards, you are rejecting a tougher solution (i.e. lock everyone up) and you could be accused of helping people who want to do wrong. What it comes down to is, where do we draw the line? How much criminal behaviour are you prepared to tolerate and exactly how far are you prepared to inconvenience the general population as a result?

By the way, opposing the idea of ID cards is not fighting the system because 'The system' as it stands does not have ID cards. A crofter living off the land, with no form of ID whatsovever, is not fighting the system, he is exercising his rights.

Still waiting for your list of reasons why ID cards are a good idea ... :)

Re: BNP loses seats
 

help reduce illegal labour
reduce identity fraud
dissuade assylum seekers targetting the UK
make it harder to use fake identification

off the top of my head.

Re: BNP loses seats
 

OK, so for each of these we need to decide whether ID cards might be effective, whether there might be a more effective alternative (bearing in mind, for example, the huge cost of introducing an ID card scheme), and whether the disruption caused (loss of liberty to the population, administration of the scheme, cost of the scheme) is in proportion to the problem.

In the context of asylum seekers, illegal labour and ID fraud/fake ID are all related issues. That suggests to me that, if you tackle the root of the problem - i.e. it is too easy for illegal immigrants to get into the UK in the first place, and to 'disappear' even when they are caught/claim asylum - then the subsequent problems will also be reduced.

So, how do we deal with the asylum problem? Some ideas:

1. For a start, we hang on like mad to our opt-out from the common Euro-border Schengen Treaty. The fact that we can retain our own border controls is an essential tool.
2. We reinstate the deal struck between the UK and France that allows us to just ship anyone arriving from France back across the Channel. France is a safe country and no-one who has reached there has any business trying to move on here. Labour, in an act of complete lunacy, tore up this deal and the problem has ballooned ever since. Of course, if France finds it has a large number of processed, genuine asylum seekers on its hands, I believe we should do our international duty by accepting some of them to come here.
3. Any and every asylum seeker/possible illegal immigrant arriving here and not immediately returnable to France should be housed in a secure unit while their application is processed. At this point I believe this trespass on their own 'liberties' is justified. If they have truly fled in danger of their lives, this minor inconvenience should be of little concern to them.
4. Anyone found to have 'fled' a country not currently deemed unsafe should be returned there immediately, so they can pursue their asylum claim at that country's British consulate.

Off the top of my head ... ;)

Re: BNP loses seats
 

You go on about our 'loss of liberty' mate and our right to privacy but look at what we have at the moment.

You wake up in the morning, log on and download emails, a record of which is made. You drive into work where your license plate is photographed by CCTV, you make a call on your mobile, records of which are kept, you pop out to the bank at lunchtime to use the ATM where a record of where you are at that specific time of day is made, no doubt caught on CCTV at the same time. Buy a sandwich with your credit card, another record of where you are and what you bought. Surf the internet at night, every thing you do being logged somewhere.

What privacy are we losing exactly by carrying an id card ?

My only concern about the ID cards is nothing to do with the cards or how effective they will be at tackling the issues raised. Its about the database behind the cards and what it will contain.

Re: BNP loses seats
 

All true, and I don't like it much - but the point is, if I felt strongly enough, I could legally opt out of all of it. There are plenty of places in the UK with no CCTV, for example. An ID card, however, I would have to have, if not to actually carry with me.

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Towny, you'll wait a VERY long time, I'm still waiting for his responses to my question about HOW the BNP will change things if they get into power.

The only response I got was a very rude (I'm paraphrasing by the way) "go and look it up your self if you want to know 'cos I can't be bothered"

Funnily enough I did have a quick look at their website but it was about as informative as Defiant :rolleyes: :blah: :blah:

edit FYI people I'm for ID cards. ;)

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Here we go again,

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Re: BNP loses seats
 

This is what we mean D, you cant have a civil debate so you resort to name calling and general abuse.

How on earth are we supposed to have a civilised conversation with you if every time some one disagrees with you you start this again :confused:

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Unfortunetly the use of identity cards may increase all these.........If someone gets hold of your identity card then they can esentially "become" you. ie i could murder a tourist while abroad and when i get to the UK use his identity.

Steal someones id card you have there identity.........instead of proving your identity with a pile of gas bills and bank statements it will all be on that one card.

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Stop stealing my patter!!!!
:rolleyes:

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Exactly......its what it may mean in 25 years from now. Who is to say in 25 years your very gene type or whatever it is is kept on your "record" through this card and insurance companies can access this......all very scary if you ask me !!

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Towny, is part of your concern to do with the number of the beast? (and no I don't mean that really good Iron Maiden song)

Re: BNP loses seats
 

I'm afraid that on this occassion I have to agree with you
:cool:

I can just imagine some gang of thugs watching me walk down the street and deciding that I am a pretty close match in looks, age and size to them.
if it was law to carry an identity card it would be well worth them attacking me for it!

I know that probably sounds a bit far fetched, but I expect the introduction of identity cards would produce that sort of crime, they may not know that you have money, credit cards, driving licence or passport etc in your wallet but it would be a certainty that you were carrying an ID card that could be of use to them.

Re: BNP loses seats
 

I did in the early stages but I am mostly lurking now:D

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Believe it or not, it doesn't ... there would be no point campaigning against that ID card, it's prophecy so it's as good as happened. :cool: :D

I really do believe that Government's natural urge to pin down and control everything should be curbed, and I don't accept the suggested 'advantages' of an ID card. People will be people; they will find other ways to misbehave.

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Out of interest, why exactly are you a member of a discussion forum?

Re: BNP loses seats
 

I'm sort of neither for nor against it (ID cards, not the rapture, I'm against that, but that's another story :D ).

If it was brought in, as a law abiding citizen who already has a passport and driving licence and national security card, it wouldn't make much difference, just an extra form of ID which always comes in handy when getting credit/hiring cars/joining blockbusters.
I think that the only really acceptable bio scan ID would be irus, as you don't leave that behind when you've been somewhere (unlike DNA or fingerprints, and of course fingerprints are far from perfect forms of ID).

As has been mentioned, criminals will eventually be able to forge near identical copies, unless in order to be used, they must always be checked against the central database, which of course will restrict their uses.
I'm invisioning something like at a police station where they swipe the card and it brings up your details with image/irus scan so that it can be checked against the person presenting the card.

If visual checks are all that's going to be used, like someone looking at your driving licence, then that's no proof that you are the same person as the name on the card (ok your pic might be the same as you but that could be forged, where as the pic that the database has can't) so it invalidates the card's purpose.

Re: BNP loses seats
 

I could ask you the same question

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Oh will you lot stop your bloody bickering.
You have different views, you're also adults (I'm pretty sure you are), so come on, I've had enough, behave.

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Well put Xaccers.

Any chance everyone could now for a change drift back onto the orignal topic rather than hijack this into a debate about ID Cards.

Subtle reminder of the original post / thread title -

:)

Re: BNP loses seats
 

That was my fault sorry, I suggested to Defiant we start a thread about id cards as well always seem to argue about asylum issues!

Or at leats I do......Defiant goes on about "vaults" which im still looking into!

Re: BNP loses seats
 

HEY HEY HEY!!!!

Maybe we could start an official "asylum seeker" thread we could all refer back to when people come up with the same opinions again and again and again!!!

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Thank you Carling :)

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Sorry to drag this one up again guys, but I got this through my door today, peddling more of their untruths and hopeless gimmicky pledges, what a joke.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jason.rigby1/bnp1.jpg

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jason.rigby1/bnp2.jpg

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Great, conning some poor pensioner into being their propaganda tool. How low can you get?

Re: BNP loses seats
 

All talk no action thankfully :)

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Yes, but for how long? That's what worries me.

Re: BNP loses seats
 

There is always the alternative..

In salford there is the Local Community Party runby a guy called Jack Crossfield..

I have emailed him for the link to his site................

And in othe parts of the country what about the UKIP party

http://www.independence.org.uk/home.shtml

Re: BNP loses seats
 

Hmmmmm....thats a point actually. At least at the moment they dont turn up for meetings etc, dont actually vote in anything worthwhile......but maybe that i sthere plan.....once they have enough seats they will start all the badness?