Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Once again demonstrating that you font understand war crimes. Self-defence doesn’t exempt Israel from its responsibilities.

Your support for collective punishment remains despicable.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I don't think you understand that in war, collateral damage happens, and Israel is not breaking international law by taking appropriate measures to protect itself. A country at war is expected to protect civilians where it can, but no party in a war can ensure that collateral damage does not happen.

As for the 'suck on that' comment, I was pointing out that people should be careful what they wish for when they vote. Hamas was voted into power, so they bear some responsibility for where we are now.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

“Collateral damage” isn’t expelling 1 million people from their homes, turning off water, electricity and blocking aid from Egypt.

Those are punitive measures. There’s nothing “self-defence” about it. You are either too stupid to understand what you are witnessing, too stupid to understand self-defence isn’t an exemption from international law, or both.

The crux of your position:

Remains fundamentally flawed. You’ve been told that the vast majority of people in Gaza are too young to have voted in that election before. You’ve been told that of those who were eligible a majority voted for someone else.

If you can’t integrate reality into your own “insight” then I can’t help you.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You're evading the point Old Boy. No one is denying Israel its right to self defence. But collective punishment, namely cutting off the utilities to Gaza is a war crime. It's not a case of permitting them or not, no one except Israel can permit them to be turned on again.

How will Israel account for its bombings in the south?

On another note, I've been reading that Egypt is getting annoyed at western requests to open its borders. It is struggling financially and doesn't want a million refugees especially in a border region with poor infrastructure.

Things are looking bleak for the Palestinians in Gaza. The best hope I can think of is aid and for Israel to step back.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Blinken has clearly been getting rebuked all round his tour of Arab states who clearly hold Israel and Israel alone responsible for events unfolding in Gaza hence the need for Biden to intervene.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Well they would think that wouldn't they?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Well yes, considering the body count in the chart Ian posted last week over the last decade or so, choosing an arbitrary starting point that suits the Israeli narrative would be unlikely considering they are allies of the Palestinian people.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

As Chris, has pointed out much earlier in this thread, everybody on either side likes to pick arbitrary starting points regarding that location to suit their narrative.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I’ve asked Seph, in particular, multiple times to justify his choice of 1948 as his starting point. I was picking on him only because when he set out his potted history of the conflict he made a point of claiming to have done a lot of work to provide detail. I dispute any claim that a summary starting in 1948 comes anywhere close to the necessary detail. It’s like trying to understand World War 2 while assuming nothing important occurred prior to 3rd September 1939.

I repeated my request to Seph when he made comments about people choosing either to blame, or ignore, British foreign policy (especially in the context of empire). The British ruled the territory in question under authorisation from the United Nations via the Mandate for Palestine from 1920 to 1948 and many of the reasons why it has been impossible to get the parties to come to terms are rooted in that period (though not exclusively - you really have to go back to the mid 19th century to really understand how we got to where we are now).

Sadly, on both occasions, Seph has chosen to ignore my requests.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You’re wrong on all counts. Fatally so, for anyone in a position of diplomatic influence in these matters. Thankfully you aren’t (nor, I assume, is anyone else here, including me).

First, as I said, (and as you appeared to agree), if you start your examination when the guns start firing you will not understand why the guns are firing. You can’t understand WW2 from 1939 and you can’t understand Israel-Palestine from 1948.

Second, it was during the British mandate that Palestinian political consciousness was born. Prior to the inter-communal riots of the 1920s - which occurred under British rule and which the British Mandate authorities did little to address - the concept of Palestinian nationhood simply did not exist. That’s not to say the ethnic Arab inhabitants there had no aspirations to self-determination, but there was no politically driven, common Palestinian identity as there is today. The British influence in the very existence of the concept of Palestine as a national identity cannot be overlooked.

Third, again, under the British Mandate, Arabs were prevented from unifying effectively under their developing Palestinian identity because the British authorities actively worked to keep the various factions squabbling with each other. This was standard Empire tactics designed to make administration easier (basically, divide and rule). The British ruled by the issuing of patronage, in ways that were deliberately fuzzy around the edges. In Jerusalem, for example, civic and religious order were given to two rival factions. Jerusalem being what it always has been, that was always going to be a recipe for chaos.

Fourth, the Ottoman stuff is absolutely not irrelevant. Your dismissal of it in this way indicates that you actually don’t understand the Ottoman stuff at all. Perhaps if you prove me wrong by outlining *why* you think it’s irrelevant, I’ll respond by demonstrating why it absolutely is.

Remember, the Palestine-Israel conflict is never just about resolving the latest flare-up. It is the intractable search for a lasting peace in which two deeply opposed groups of people can learn to live side by side. Dismissing their mutual history - which you are so obviously doing, even while pretending you’re not - is exactly the way to ensure no such settlement occurs.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

There seems to be a popular trend amongst right-wingers to dismiss history and in particular the history of British colonialism as woke, so it should be ignored. It sits in their minds alongside other things they perceive as woke like the BBC, Disney, London, Greta Thunberg, 20 mph speed limits and avocados.

That's either plain laziness or a means of ignoring evidence that doesn't suit their world view.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You paint pictures with a very broad brush, Andrew. You will never understand ‘right wingers’ as you put it. I certainly don’t think of anything is colonialist terms.

The problem with where we are now may have started way back in history, but the problem now is getting a just solution to the problems history has created. That must commence with peace talks, which is not possible while Hamas is in this poisonous mix.

As for colonialism, this is a left wing obsession. Colonialism was before my time, and yours.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

So was the Roman Empire, and people still talk about it.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

That's a point - when do we get reparations for their invasion? :rolleyes:

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

They gave us civilisation, OB. We should be grateful.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Just what exactly does that have to do with anything.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Israel bombing hospitals and schools, who are the terrorists now?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...-east-67119233

Never mind Rishi us popping over to give them carte blanch to do whatever. Wonder why he doesn't want to be in the country on by election day?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

If they are, they have some explaining to do. How do you know it wasn’t Hamas? They do have form.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

From that link... 'Hamas calls hospital attack a war crime'

But terrorism is okay by their standard...???

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Speculative nonsense. I assume they bombed all those residential apartment blocks with their own air force too?

Leaving OB’s nonsense aside and addressing everyone else it’s time for the leader of the free world to speak up.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Current estimates of 500 dead at the Hospital bombing plus an earlier bombing of a school today killing a few more makes the ability of the Leaders of US, UK, etc. to stand up and say "We stand by Israel and it's right to retaliate" much more perilous.

I think this will be one of the inflexion points in this current conflict. Unlimited support for Israel will start to melt away ...

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You are letting your anti-Israel bias show very clearly here. There were a lot of weapons stored there, so let’s see. Hamas has incorrectly blamed Israel before. They are not averse to killing their own people as part of their show.

I will reserve judgement until we know more.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s difficult to see how anyone can possibly condone this unless they are Zionist, racist or both.

A clear and unambiguous war crime.

We all knew the one sided approach to be spineless a week ago, however we might get confirmation of just how much the UK political elite has been captured by the pro-Israel lobby.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Well, unlimited support for Israel certainly doesn’t exist on this site!

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Considering you previously indicated people in Gaza deserved collective punishment merely for being born in Gaza forgive me for not caring for your judgement.

---------- Post added at 19:49 ---------- Previous post was at 19:49 ----------

No, but despicable support does.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Well, that’s just you misinterpreting again.

I have never said that anyone (apart from Hamas) deserved collective punishment. My point was that if the Palestinians get another vote, they should be more careful about which party to put in power. Hamas has not changed its spots since it was elected.

---------- Post added at 20:08 ---------- Previous post was at 20:05 ----------

Both the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition support Israel. It is the despicable Hamas apologists who are out of step with popular opinion. You’re one of those who is seriously out of step, not me.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Anyone can waste 10 minutes of their life wading their way through the posts you’ve made on the subject.

They can suck on that to now via the 2006 election was a wild ride of contradictions.

---------- Post added at 20:11 ---------- Previous post was at 20:09 ----------

Irrelevant.

Fewer citizens supported flying the Israeli flag on Government buildings than those who opposed. And that was before the war crimes got started.

You are wildly out of step with this thread, even among those who are most vocally critical of Hamas and most likely to defend Israeli actions.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

A wise man would not be quick to accept such claims from Hamas on their word.

If the IDF have bombed a hospital they should rightly be condemned and held accountable, but I’m disinclined to accept Hamas’ claims on face value. Because I know that generally they’re very trustworthy nice people, just trying to get along.

But I don’t think that staging the odd false flag attack and making accusations to stoke up tensions around everything is beyond them, in fact I’m pretty sure it’s part of their playbook.

Hamas value the lives of Palestinians arguably less than Israel.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s the same health ministry that’s been documenting casualties for over a week. That said, cynicism is probably warranted and I’ll be equally cynical of inevitable IDF denials since the optics are atrocious in particular with Biden in town.

An even wiser man suggested topic rests earlier, I’m sure things will be clearer tomorrow either way so I’m calling it a night.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Given there’s credible evidence of Hamas actively trying to prevent Gazans from escaping the areas Israel has advertised as targets, I am far from sanguine about taking Hamas’ word for it that Isreal has bombed a hospital. No matter how fired up for revenge Israel is I find it hard to believe they’d do this deliberately. On the other hand I think Hamas is more than capable of blowing up a hospital and then blaming Israel.

Military missiles do of course leave telltale debris behind - that’s how we first knew that Ukraine has begun using American ATACMS long range missiles. The debris is characteristic. If Israel did this then debris matching the magnitude of destruction will be found. Given the ubiquity of mobile phone cameras and CCTV, no doubt footage showing a detonation typical of an Israeli missile (as opposed to an IED loaded with low-explosive and gas canisters) is also likely to be found.

---------- Post added at 22:13 ---------- Previous post was at 21:42 ----------

(Edit)

There is also the possibility of an accidental hit either by the IDF or Hamas. Plenty of video doing the rounds this evening supports the claim that an outbound Hamas rocket was responsible for this. Though I still believe Hamas is perfectly capable of doing this deliberately.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I am hoping that the US has satellite images that show beyond any doubt where these rockets were fired from.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

They undoubtedly do, but declassifying and sharing those images is not straightforward. Often such output gives the game away with regards to the US’s ability to spy on whoever the satellite is flying over. They don’t want details of their precise capabilities out in the wild if they can help it.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The IDF are understandably going all in on a denial.

It’d have been helpful if some of their video footage wasn’t old and subsequently deleted from their own social media accounts, and if the time stamps matched the events. Similarly, one of Netanyahu’s digital comms people claimed it then quickly deleted which doesn’t help get facts out there when you have already got dubious credibility for attacking schools, hospitals and other civilian infrastructure. Equally warning the hospital to evacuate doesn’t sound like the actions of a military that doesn’t hit hospitals.

I would imagine at this point if America had anything useful to back Israel at this point they’d be publicly backing them instead. The usually complicit media just gave the IDF spokesperson a hard time which indicates none of them have had a nod to toe the line.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

As predicted, daylight reveals a lot of fire and no crater. In other words, burning fuel from a failed terrorist rocket, not an IDF missile strike (big flash, even bigger crater, small fire).

Nevertheless, the nature of this conflict is that all sides will believe what they want to believe and act accordingly - c.f. Arab states blaming Israel with surprisingly indecent haste last night, even before any evidence, however contested, had been presented.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Here’s the key image circulating this morning. It’s from Quds News Network - Hamas sympathetic if not outright controlled. So no need for any breathless commentary about mismatched time-codes.

No crater.
Next to no building damage.
Obviously an extensive fire.

The most likely conclusion is that this was the result of a terrorist rocket that fell short. As we know, they don’t have large warheads and don’t cause a large amount of damage in and of themselves - except when they’re still carrying most of their propellant, in which case they do this.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1697619108

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You’re right, I didn’t mention Balfour. I didn’t mention a lot of stuff. But I’m not the one trying to cover a lack of knowledge of the subject by claiming what I have mentioned represents a lot of work and everything that’s relevant. To be honest your hot-take on Balfour suggests to me that you really don’t understand exactly what Balfour’s understanding of Zionism meant in terms of British foreign policy and how that affected the way Arabs responded to the proposed two-state solution in 1947-48. NB, the declaration itself is an inadequate basis for understanding. Feel free to Google his later clarification and get back to me.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

500 people didn't die in the area shown in that photo. So there is more to it than that.

As for the extent of the fire, bear in mind hospitals have large quantities of stored oxygen.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

At this point, how do we know that 500 people died? Isn’t it equally possible that there’s a whole lot *less* to it than that?

If there’s missile damage, i.e. a crater and extensive building damage, or even more fire damage accelerated by hospital oxygen, where’s the photos and videos of that? Why just circulate images of an incidental fire, if that’s all there is?

I appreciate you wanting to keep an open mind, but I do challenge your starting assumption here, which appears to be that the Hamas claims made last night are most likely to be true.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

There’s another option to be considered here also, apologies if it’s already been expressed

It was indeed a Hamas rocket that caused the damage, just not necessarily fired by Hamas rather fired by the iDF

Neither side are exactly bastions of the truth

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

To what end?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

To further enhance the ‘Hamas couldn’t give a toss about the average Palestinian’
Narrative (which btw I’m not saying is untrue) look to potentially try and start an uprising against Hamas and overthrow them?

The propaganda war is just as important to both sides as the physical conflict.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I think this is not likely and more, it invites us to disappear into the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories.

It looks more likely that a heavier missile was fired by Palestinian Islamic Jihad and either was intercepted over the hospital area or just failed in flight and landed on the hospital. I guess more details will come out in time. However, this does not absolve Israel of culpability: these 1000's of people would not have been in that hospital if the IDF was not bombing their homes.

As an aside, what is clear is that Twitter is more than useless in communicating breaking news in an objective sense. So many people posting with so many interpretations of what is happening. It used to be far more authoritative, now it is just Musk's clown show.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Once you eliminate the impossible…..

It’s a tactic that’s been used in multiple conflicts before…. So therefore it remains unfortunately a possibility.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Agreed

Of course, Hamas launch an unprovoked attack, targeting and massacring civilians, that starts this current conflict and Israel’s retaliation.

A rocket is fired from within Gaza malfunctions and blows up in Gaza, and Israel is culpable, that’s some impressive moralistic gymnastics you’re performing there. 9.9. 9.9 9.9 Bravo.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s an error of investigative technique to persist in giving equal weight to different hypotheses regardless of their plausibility. As things stand, insisting that explanation remains on the table doesn’t clarify anything and only serves to muddy the waters. Which, no doubt, is exactly what some of Hamas’ most fervent cheerleaders want. Don’t think for a moment that their super-rapid claim of Israeli culpability last night was grounded in any sort of evidence or investigation. They will have had no idea who fired the missile, nor will they have cared. All that mattered was to make it into a PR win.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The hundreds of civilians were only there because of IDF bombing their homes. I understand this is a complex situation that some can find hard to grasp but actions do have consequences.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The hundreds of civilians were only there because Hamas attacked Israel. I understand this is a complex situation that some can find hard to grasp but actions do have consequences.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Incorrect

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

No, it’s correct.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

That ‘theory’ is popular in certain corners of the Tw*ttersphere, amongst the usual suspects who are so invested in the narrative that Israel must have done this that they can’t deal with any evidence to the contrary in any way other than to make it fit the narrative.

That is, apart from those who are just ignoring any evidence from the blast site at all, for example this breathtaking piece of journalism from Al Jazeera, which lives in a universe where ‘Israel attacked the hospital’ is simply a given:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...ospital-strike

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

How many hospitals have been attacked since the start of this war, one of the reasons nothing definitive can be concluded now is because this one was damaged in a previous strike

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

How so ?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Egypt to allow 20 aid trucks into Gaza.
https://news.sky.com/story/israel-ha...#liveblog-body

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

2.5 million Gazans will get plenty of water and food from 20 trucks

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Insisting that we can’t draw conclusions because everybody had a motive is being deliberately obtuse. As in any criminal investigation you go where the evidence leads you.

There is physical evidence on the ground that clearly indicates this was not an Israelii missile but a terrorist one that still had a substantial propellant load (there was almost no crater, almost no blast damage, but a lot of fire). There is video evidence of the missile breaking up mid-air and landing on the hospital. There are recordings of the terrorists discussing it and acknowledging what they’ve done.

There is absolutely no evidence that Israel faked any of the above so as to make something they did, look like something Hamas or one of its fellow travellers did. The claim that “Ah well they’ve bombed hospitals before” is not evidence. It’s the cry of a petty criminal who insists he’s being fitted up when he’s been caught climbing out of someone’s kitchen window.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The answer is 10 btw, 10 hospitals hit

Ah yes the recording of the terrorists discussing what they've done, the one many experts claim lacks credibility and is absurd due to the language, tone, syntax, dialect and accent , stuff like that is why I prefer to wait than rush to judgement, pretty much in the same way I didn't rush to blame the Israelis when it happened

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Look … I see all the same bonkers Tweets you do. There’s no point laundering their contents here as if simply making an assertion somehow makes it credible.

In fact, I almost didn’t mention the recording because I am well aware that some of Hamas’ most fervent cheerleaders have been saying all those things about it. They have to really, because it’s damning, and it’s also the only piece of the evidence they have any hope of discrediting.

You are however making a serious evidence-handling error by allowing subjective opinions about someone’s accent to weigh more heavily than the physical evidence at the blast site. You are quite honestly drifting into ‘CIA blew up the twin towers’ territory with this. The conjecture that Israel somehow acquired a PIJ missile, fired it from within Gaza, and contrived for it to break apart mid-flight in exactly the right place for most of it to land on the hospital, is beyond absurd.

They simply do not need to discredit Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad right now, which is the only plausible motive for them to set up a false flag attack or ‘accident’ at the hospital. The terrorist attacks within Israel itself have given them more than enough self-justification to do whatever they feel they need to.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Yes, but sadly, the Palestinians living in Gaza City won’t see any of this.

I think Israel should not continue to delay its ground invasion. It will be bloody, but until Israel can move in and start to disable Hamas, the people trapped there will die through hunger and lack of water.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I've not said or done any of that save for saying I won't be jumping to any conclusions and here you are evidence handling like some weird arabian nights sherlock holmes and drifting into conspiracy theories I've never mentioned, it's worrying how easily you make the leap from what little I said to that tbh and it wasn't on twitter I heard about the recording, it was my nephew the journalist for an Arabic newspaper who incidentally reported the baby atrocities long before anyone else confirmed it who told me there were serious issues with the recording and channel 4 news picked up on it

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Because those 1000's of civilians were there because the IDF bombed their homes after Hamas attacked Israel.

This whole sorry story is not binary and it is not black and white. Actions have consequences on both sides.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

So logically, if Hamas had not attacked Israel, Israel would not have bombed their homes and there wouldn’t have been civilians there, in fact none of the current actions would have happened.

This particular episode that started Saturday before last, is 100% down to Hamas, and Hamas are 100% culpable.

---------- Post added at 18:49 ---------- Previous post was at 18:46 ----------

Didn’t age well, did it?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Well said, Pierre, but don’t expect the anti-Jewish guys to understand that. If this was the other way around, those same people would not be making these contorted arguments.

It’s always the same. Israel is attacked mercilessly with a constant stream of rockets and other terrorist acts, and when Israel responds, it is they who are condemned.

I’m afraid that logic goes out of the window where Israel and Palestine is discussed.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

We're still none the wiser ( and I was just posting the BBC story). I wouldn't believe either side more than the other.
Hamas and Israel have got form when it comes to disinformation.

Meanwhile a humanitarian disaster is unfolding, which we're supporting/ turning a blind eye to.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Who are these "anti-Jewish guys" you refer to? Antisemitism is a serious accusation so please be very careful with your language.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Well, we are. Evidence shows that it is almost certainly a rocket fired from within Gaza that failed.

It also didn’t hit the hospital, but a car park

And 500 people didn’t die.

But apart from that, we’re very much in tha dark.

This is the best quote. “I just immediately regurgitated the BBC story, without thinking”

I don’t blame you because I would expect someone like you to vault onto a headline without applying a little critical thought. But I do blame the BBC and all other MSM outlets. I can’t understand how this all got past Mariana Spring and the BBC misinformation desk?

Of course they would accept Hamas’ version of events with corroboration, Hamas being so trustworthy and all.

seems you did

no shit?

Are you supporting it! I’m not. I don’t think many on here are either.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

What Israel is doing to Gaza seems like a Warsaw II scenario.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I've not seen any anti-semitic posts in this thread nor have I thought for even a second that the moderators would permit it. Criticism of some of Israel's actions is not the same thing. Indeed, some notable Jewish lawyers recently wrote an open letter raising their concerns about Israel's actions in Gaza. You wouldn't describe them as anti-Jewish, would you?
https://www.ft.com/content/dab1c9ff-...b-43aea6382471

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It is very hard to disregard the fact that people are demanding much higher standards than Hamas practices, even to the extent that doing what some are suggesting would not only prolong this bitter dispute but would ultimately not change anything.

This is the perfect opportunity for Israel to eliminate the scourge of Hamas once and for all, and they need to take it while protecting civilians as best they can during the operation.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I certainly am. I do not want Israel to go into Gaza and do what Hamas did to their victims. You might do but I certainly do not.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

International law is not about stooping down to the level of terrorist groups, Old Boy. We should all demand higher standards than this.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

:nutter:

You find it hard to understand that people expect a nation state to behave better than terrorists, really, that's your reasoning for carelessly throwing around antisemitism slurs :spin:

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

tbf, he though Liz Truss was doing a good job, so you can't really expect a reasoned or rational debate on this,,,

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I see the Palestinian families can suck it brigade is now onto accusing forum members of being anti-Semitic.

Classy. Wanting Palestinians to not be massacred in war crimes. How appalling of us.

---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 ----------

Also asking a much more powerful military to work within its skill set rather than carpet bomb civilian areas, cut off civilian infrastructure and block humanitarian aid isn’t really much to ask is it?

---------- Post added at 12:17 ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 ----------

OBs clear disregard for Palestinian civilian life has been his one constant throughout the thread.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

There is no suggestion that this is the case. The West would never support that even if it was true.

---------- Post added at 13:40 ---------- Previous post was at 13:37 ----------

You know very well what I’m saying, Andrew. The way some people try to get on Israel’s case when it’s trying to defend itself is perverse.

We are now in a situation where Israel needs to wade in and root out this abhorrent group of savages while doing its best to avoid civilian casualties.

---------- Post added at 13:42 ---------- Previous post was at 13:40 ----------

You neatly avoided the contextual last part of that paragraph. :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 13:43 ---------- Previous post was at 13:42 ----------

You got it wrong again, dad. Deliberately too, I reckon.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I do which is why I called you out on your race to the bottom.

No one is criticising Israel's right to defend itself. But members like me on this forum are not giving Israel carte blanche to break international law by collective punishment like cutting off the utilities.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

They have cut off utilities to force Hamas to surface from their tunnels, and apparently this has been pretty successful so far. How many Israeli soldiers do you want to be killed if supplies are restored? This is the quickest way of flushing them out.

This is not a ‘collective punishment’, it is the means to destroy Hamas. It is not aimed at the Palestinian civilians. There will be collateral damage whatever Israel does in fighting Hamas because they are using civilians as human shields.

You haven’t thought this through, Andrew. Your preferred option will achieve nothing except to prolong the war, and the longer it goes on, the more civilian casualties there will be.

Don’t sit there trying to describe what I think as ‘a race to the bottom’. Both the UK PM and the Leader of the Opposition understand and accept the Israeli strategy. You are the one who is off message.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You are banging your head against a brick wall. There’s no price that the population can ever pay, even in the blood of their children, that will be enough for those with the extreme anti-Palestinian sentiment that he holds.

The death count is what 3:1, 4:1? When is enough?

---------- Post added at 14:14 ---------- Previous post was at 14:07 ----------

You are absolutely deluded if you think Hamas are hiding out in tunnels relying Israeli electricity. I’ll give your flawed strategy some latitude though and ask the question how many days should it go on for if they don’t surface? How many Palestinian children dying does it take for it to no longer be considered proportionate?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I know who’s deluded, and it certainly isn’t me.

They need electricity (for ventilation as well as light), food and water. They can only hold out for so long.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I didn’t say they didn’t have electricity. I said Israeli electricity.

Which brings us back to how many days and how many child deaths before it is no longer considered proportionate? What if they have enough fuel, food and water for months?

Would you propose to starve the entire population for that long?

Is there no upper limit of Palestinian civilian deaths that you’d find unpalatable?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

What's your source about the effectiveness of this approach?

Cutting off the utilities to the entire population is classified by brighter minds than ours as a collective punishment. It's really not that hard to work out why.

I've not expressed a preferred option, I've just said that international law needs to be followed. But don't kid yourself that any military action will end the war.

Benchmarking against Hamas - which is what you did - is a race to the bottom.

I've not followed the words of Sunak and Starmer to know their views on the utilities. Though like of all of us, they acknowledge the right of Israel to defend itself. I'm not sure anyone on this Forum needs to fall in line with their views anyway.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

https://besacenter.org/cutting-the-e...-implications/

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Thanks for posting.

It will be interesting to see where Old Boy gets his evidence that

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Interesting article on the tunnels.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67097124

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I don’t like the use of this word, proportionate.

What’s proportionate. What in your opinion would be a “proportionate” response from Israel?

Should they have gone into Gaza and abducted the exact same number of Men, Women, Children, babies and OAPs that Hamas killed? Brought them into Israel and beheaded the exact same number of babies? Tortured the exact number of Children in front their parents? Raped the exact number of women, murdered in cold blood the exact number of people.

That would be a proportionate response, wouldn’t it? In the truest sense of the word.

Whatever Israel’s response, it will never be a proportionate response to what happened……or are just boiling it down to pure numbers game?

---------- Post added at 18:10 ---------- Previous post was at 18:04 ----------

Decent article from the BBC, thanks for sharing.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Well no, you’ve just described war crimes.

A proportionate response - I’m sure we’d actually agree on - is one that ruthlessly slaughters Hamas (and any entities assisting) while minimising civilian casualties. One that reduces its capabilities to strike Israel. It’s a balancing act that could be debated almost endlessly.

But this ain’t it.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

We can agree on that.

And that

And that

Which it will be as it could be debated that, Israel is trying to do all of the above.

That’s debatable.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Pierre we debated this in a civil way despite quite fundamental disagreements over the first few days and I know deep down you wouldn’t take up those positions at this point.

At absolute best Israel are at the limit, if not passing it a few days ago. There’s nothing to be gained continuing like this.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

That’s just triggered a memory of visiting there some thirty odd years ago.

Incredible place but for all the wrong reasons

Thank you

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Where ? Please provide details as Ive looked back and I cant find this.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Some more analysis on that Christian hospital bombing story via a short Channel 4 video. Despite this, the fact that Hamas has not produced the promised fragment of the alleged Israeli missile is quite damning.
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/sta...37877604049094

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I believe this is the post John referred to:

anti-Jewish == anti-Semite

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

First image of freed hostages