Re: Climate Change
 

Southwest seems to have the best weather in the U.K. Warmed by the sea in the winter, cooled by the sea in the summer.

Re: Climate Change
 

My friends near the Lizard in Cornwall are always complaining about the rain so if they're right there may be a sweet spot before you get that far west.

Re: Climate Change
 

What issue ?
I made no mention of issues or anything else other than the subject of people trying to equate the summer of 1976 with this heatwave.

Of course it does, you cannot compare a 2 month heatwave with a 2 day heatwave.

You seem to be doing the same as many on here, and trying to read things into my post that are just not there.

Re: Climate Change
 

I think today's issue is that we've recorded the highest-ever temperature in the UK at 40.2 degrees.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-ever-heatwave

Re: Climate Change
 

I think those that choose to draw comparisons with 76 forget that some factories had to close due to water shortages & that excess deaths were up 20% for the year. There were a myriad of issues A case of rose tinted (sun)glasses

Re: Climate Change
 

And today's temps are over 4c hotter than anything in '76. However its not about today its about the trend over the last few decades. Some seem to not to want to face up to the issue. Or they reckon its not going to affect them too much , it's the next generations problem, typical of so much atm.

Re: Climate Change
 

Well that is accurate, is it not ?
Seems pretty clear from the predictions it will be their problem, and those that follow them as well.

Re: Climate Change
 

Lots of fires across London now.

Re: Climate Change
 

In recorded history not ever

Re: Climate Change
 

News reports do state "ever".

The thermometer was invented in 1592 and the UK was formed in 1801 so they're probably right.

Re: Climate Change
 

Excellent news. Nothing makes politicians stand up and take something seriously the same as it happening in London.

Re: Climate Change
 

Perhaps we could help our children by doing something about it, making their futures less difficult?

Re: Climate Change
 

The idea of the “can’t pay, won’t pay” generation that sold off all the state assets and saddled it with trillions of pounds of debt investing in the future is fanciful. They’d rather save a fraction of a penny in the pound in tax.

Future generations exist to extract wealth from through privatisation and extending the borrowing amount and length of mortgages.

Re: Climate Change
 

Recorded history (for this kind of thing especially) is not really very long, nor were temperature measurements as accurate, esp more than about 400 years ago.

Quite possibly, but again, that isnt what was said, or even mentioned.

Re: Climate Change
 

No one said “do nothing”, we’ve done lots and can continue - but ( as you mentioned yourself earlier) let’s build our replacement capacity before we turn off all the older stuff.

Makes sense

---------- Post added at 20:09 ---------- Previous post was at 20:05 ----------

First records began in 1659, and subsequent recording was patchy since. The met office didn’t start until 1914

https://www.itv.com/news/2022-07-19/...-records-begin

Re: Climate Change
 

That was a toasty 2 days back to 15c now.

Re: Climate Change
 

Something strange is going on with current sea temperatures:

https://twitter.com/DrTELS/status/1667651296310992902

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2023/06/4.jpg

---------- Post added at 10:41 ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 ----------

Also:

https://twitter.com/WilliamJRipple/s...77338682982401

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2023/06/5.jpg

Re: Climate Change
 

Isn't it a El Nino year? Always spikes around then and each time usually worse than before due to the baseline rise in temperatures

Re: Climate Change
 

You may be right but this seems it could be worse than an El Nino year:

https://twitter.com/LeonSimons8/stat...81867034869760

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2023/06/6.jpg

Re: Climate Change
 

Welcome to the future we've ignored the warnings and not acted quickly or far enough. Things might now be out of control whatever we do.

However politicians only look to the next election and we care only about our current lifestyle. The future is tomorrow's problem, however tomorrow may have arrived.

Re: Climate Change
 

I predict 50 years from now they'll be saying the planet will be wrecked in 20 years, like they were saying 50 years ago.

Re: Climate Change
 

And they were right. The climate is screwed irretrievably.

Re: Climate Change
 

Yeah, 50 years isn't that long and there are more and more notable consequences.

Re: Climate Change
 

:rofl:

Re: Climate Change
 

Another intelligent contribution to the debate....

Re: Climate Change
 

Well, if you don’t believe enough, it will all go away…

Re: Climate Change
 

Is climate change a belief system? Thank you for confirming. It all makes sense now.

Re: Climate Change
 

Happy to help…

It seems that your knowledge of Climate Change is matched by your recognition of irony…

Re: Climate Change
 

Well you know what they say about jokes and user interfaces.

Re: Climate Change
 

Some people won’t be capable of understanding either?

User interface "the point of human-computer interaction and communication in a device."

Irony "the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning”"

Joke "a thing that someone says to cause amusement or laughter, especially a story with a funny punchline."

Hope this helps…

Re: Climate Change
 

No, if you have to explain how they work, they’re not that good.

In so far as, I didn’t see the irony in your post, but feel free to explain it.

Re: Climate Change
 

Yes, your contributions are top-notch eh, just like your doom-laden comment,
How exactly is it irretrievable, Sherlock?

Re: Climate Change
 

Have a read up on climate change tipping points. You might learn something. The point beyond even if we made all the changes necessary it' becomes a roller coaster we can't stop.

It's elementary Watson....

https://climatescience.org/advanced-...tipping-points

Re: Climate Change
 

Have a read up on these and relax a little bit, work to be done but it’s not the end of the world.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Apocalypse-.../dp/0063001691

https://www.amazon.co.uk/False-Alarm...c=1&th=1&psc=1

Re: Climate Change
 

Interesting note about the author of the first book:

What is interesting is that denying that climate change is real and affecting is a sort of reverse Pascal's wager. You can see that majority scientific consensus concludes that it is real and we face imminent danger yet denial is the option chosen for some. Maybe some can only accept reality when it is present and not pending?

Re: Climate Change
 

Yes, critiqued by:……..

No doubt an independent balanced outfit.

That, right there, is a position not based in science in anyway.

Translated as “Even though it might be true we’re overdoing it………….down playing it doesn’t fit our narrative which might be problematic.”

No one is denying Climate Change is real!!!…..

But it is not an Emergency, apocalypse etc etc.

It is manageable without destroying western global civilisations and economies

Re: Climate Change
 

I did look at Climate Feedback and their process seem fair:

You seem to be happy that Climate Change exists but as long as it does not cost (you) any money.

Re: Climate Change
 

Close, My position is that climate change ( and we can debate all the inputs to that) is indeed a real phenomenon, but the effects are manageable and we don’t have to bankrupt ourselves chasing the end of the rainbow that is “net-zero” which is unachievable.

There’s another thread on this forum titled “energy crisis”, that energy crisis has been precipitated in part because of this race to expensive unreliable renewable types of generation.

Re: Climate Change
 

Come on now Pierre, the energy crisis had everything to do with relying on Russia and the Middle Eastern countries to play nice and let the "market" work for us. They worked out they could rinse us and we got left exposed.

That's not the green agenda at play.

There's no such thing as the world (or western economies) bankrupting itself. Actually renewables presents a great opportunity to become independent. Of course that requires massive investment, but one that pays off in the long run.

Of course there's a lot of financial interest in us not doing that. The same old same old of burning oil and gas is billions a year for the incumbents.

That's not to say of course there's not money input from the other side who stand to gain from investment in renewables.

What's in our interest (as in me, you and the other little guys down here just living and working away) is almost undoubtedly somewhere in-between.

Re: Climate Change
 

I see politicians from all sides are falling over themselves trying to downgrade climate pledges. All because of 1 by-election result. They never look more than 5 years ahead. Maybe what's happening in Greece and Europe this summer is a clue? Or the first 2 weeks of July being the hottest for the planet on record? Climate change will do for us all regardless of political party.

And before anyone says this doesn't affect us, where do you think the millions of climate refugees will be heading?

Re: Climate Change
 

Looking at the current Atlantic temperatures plus the Antarctic sea ice extent, we may be too late to stop this progression of extreme weather events. It always came down to trusting the science but the problem was that the change needed cost money, a lot of money. It also involved collaboration at a world level which is problematic.

The irony is that the people with the money that may have made a difference will burn alongside the plebs :)

---------- Post added at 18:23 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1kbWmLa...jpg&name=small

---------- Post added at 18:28 ---------- Previous post was at 18:23 ----------

Note about the sea ice:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F1ujPPfW...jpg&name=small

Re: Climate Change
 

Re: Climate Change
 

No, that would be the science of a simpleton.

The current out of control warming has happened over decades not hundreds of thousands of years.

Re: Climate Change
 

Re: Climate Change
 

No it would not, the fact is the planet has undergone many climate changes, and is currently in one of its coldest spells, and warming up. As said, we may be speeding that process up, but it would happen anyway.

Re: Climate Change
 

Given the limited lifespan we all have I remain to be convinced that it will have happened in 150 years (maybe) adds much value. What happens in the next 50 years is more important than the 100 after that.

The extent this process, if it is indeed unstoppable, can be slowed and how is important.

That said on a global level Britain are as irrelevant as separating your household waste into three different recycling bins after which the council sends it all to landfill on different days. Sunak even less so he will be out on his ear in the next 18 months.

Re: Climate Change
 

who/how was that graph produced?

Re: Climate Change
 

It happens over geological ages, far beyond the perception of human life, you don't have periods where it warms so dramatically faster with no time for the ecology to adjust.

Sephiroth graph isn't to scale, there is a reason whoever produced it hasn't put more precise years at the bottom because on a scale of even 100,000 years, that dramatic spike upwards would find it difficult to fit on. This rate of warming didn't start 10,000 years ago - or wherever that uptick meant to start - it started 100 years ago.

---------- Post added at 09:42 ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 ----------

No, we wouldn't because it would have taken longer to occur than any of us would have been alive.

The warming event 140,000 years ago was the Eemian period. It took roughly 15,000 - 20,000 years to go from ice age (-4) to around +2c. 6 degrees warming over 15,000 years. That's a rate of 0.0004c increase per year.

Meanwhile, it's taken since 1880 to rise 1c. That's a take of 0.007 increase per year. That's 17x faster.

---------- Post added at 09:42 ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 ----------

No, we wouldn't because it would have taken longer to occur than any of us would have been alive.

The warming event 140,000 years ago was the Eemian period. It took roughly 15,000 - 20,000 years to go from ice age (-4) to around +2c. 6 degrees warming over 15,000 years. That's a rate of 0.0004c increase per year.

Meanwhile, it's taken since 1880 to rise 1c. That's a take of 0.007 increase per year. That's 17x faster.

Re: Climate Change
 

Re: Climate Change
 

That's because the graph isn't to scale. The last part is clearly meant to represent the last 70 or so years but the period before that took tens of thousands of years. You can't accurately represent 500,000 years on such a small graph.

This does a better job but it's still hard to see the increase happening at the end of the graph there: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...alaeotemps.svg

Re: Climate Change
 

Re: Climate Change
 

and don't look up :D

Re: Climate Change
 

'There's none so blind as those who will not see'

Seems to be one of those issues where folks deny the obvious as either it's inconvenient, or they do it for kicks, like so many other issues ..

There is a genuine concern that this is going to cost , or that certain countries aren't doing their bit. However climate change is going to be costlier/devastating and much more than 'inconvenient'.

It may be too late but we should try, and persuade others to do the same.

Re: Climate Change
 

What scale? When is that last peak meant to be, it's 10,000 years ago?

I wouldn't depend on such a basic chart.

As I said It took roughly 15,000 - 20,000 years to go from ice age (-4) to around +2c. 6 degrees warming over 15,000 years. That's a rate of 0.0004c increase per year. Since 1880 to rise 1c. That's a take of 0.007 increase per year. That's 17x faster.

Re: Climate Change
 

More critical thinking and less wishful thinking needed here, Seph. Damien's called this one right, unfortunately.

Re: Climate Change
 

anyone else read this ?

https://www.newscientist.com/article...-soon-as-2025/

Re: Climate Change
 

One thing that doesn't help are the nudge tactics by Sky and BBC, over inflating temperatures and implying unrelated incidents are because of climate change. The Rhodes fires being a case in point.

Re: Climate Change
 

No one event can be attributed to climate change. We have floods, we have wildfires, we have heatwaves, and cold snaps. We also have El Niño events which have temporary impacts on certain years.

But the hypothesized impacts of climate change are an increase in the frequency of these events. We are possibly seeing that. We breaking hottest day records year on year now. Last month we broke the hottest day record several times in a week: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66120297. This was in part an El Nino impact, we probably won't hit it next year, but overall the world is measurably getting hotter.

What I don't understand is where the confidence comes from that the majority of scientists and scientific bodies are wrong. People look at a dodgy graph and something some smartarse with a humanities degree wrote in The Spectator and think they know better than NASA.

Re: Climate Change
 

I think people don't like change and if there's anything which will give them a way out then they'll grasp it, however flawed it might be.

Re: Climate Change
 

More accurately, they don't like anything that they think may cost them more money even though it may benefit the lives of their own offspring. Some people are wired that way ...

Re: Climate Change
 

Re: Climate Change
 

I’ve never said climate change isn’t happening or real.

But, I reject that it is an emergency. I reject the race for net-zero. Of course we should reduce emissions but setting arbitrary deadlines forcing people to change to more expensive, less reliable products will just cause problems

People will change to greener alternatives by themselves when they are competitively priced, reliable, work just as well and the infrastructure is there to support them.

Forcing people to change and/or scaring them into changing is not the right way to change peoples habits.

Re: Climate Change
 

I think they have been looking for the attached research link…

For instance, here is the abstract attached to that graphic.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...re_Projections

Re: Climate Change
 

Re: Climate Change
 

There’s no real evidence of that. It’s just plucked from thin air.

Re: Climate Change
 

Re: Climate Change
 

I agree that realistically we need to find alternative, climate-friendly, ways to enable people to live their lives normally otherwise we're doomed to failure. It's why I am a big fan of nuclear power and frustrated we're so slow on the uptake of it.

People still need cars, will take flights, will need to live within their means.

You keep ignoring the scale of the change because you've seen one graph that doesn't show scale.

The temperature does change but it takes place over tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years in a cycle. It's measured in geological ages. The last one was quick but still takes much longer than we've had civilisations. We're talking about a dramatic increase in the speed of warming. As I said before it's warming 17x faster.

Re: Climate Change
 

So it’s plucked from thin air, it doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, and because the Earth (undoubtedly) has its own fluctuations we shouldn’t waste time, effort, energy, cost to gain and understanding of (or indeed influence) them?

Gotcha.

Re: Climate Change
 

This is the kind of thing that boils my piss

Re: Climate Change
 

Mine’s boiled by people who think internet memes and cobbled-together Tw*tter graphics are a decent argument for (or rebuttal of) anything at all, ever.

There has been a trend in TV weather towards using graded colour to indicate temperature, rainfall, rain accumulation, variance from average and all sorts of things. This has become possible because weather models and observations are a lot more granular than they used to be.

‘To scare you’ is an assertion that simply isn’t supported by the evidence available in the photo. We don’t know whether the two pictures are even from the same forecaster, so we can’t see how else their graphical presentation of the weather may have changed in the *six years* between the two images.

Re: Climate Change
 

https://www.reuters.com/article/fact...-idUSL1N2Z30KX

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...b0116f21c06717

Re: Climate Change
 

Re: Climate Change
 

It’s a bit more nuanced than that. There’s a very basic introduction to the practice of colour-blind design here:

https://www.getfeedback.com/resource...lor-blindness/

Google is your friend.

Re: Climate Change
 

It can vary. This test gives some idea of the ranges there can be issues.

https://www.colorlitelens.com/ishihara-test.html

Re: Climate Change
 

AFAIK, the most common colour blindness is red/green.
So I dont quite get how changing green to red would help ?

That said, the colouring on the first one does not look temperature related.
The green just appears to be much like just a satellite view of the countries.

However, if you watch or read the news, the current use of orange/red seems at least partially aimed to stir up peoples reactions.

Re: Climate Change
 

That’s just one common image, but it does highlight a point.

I even tested it myself two days ago. BBC had the temperature in Sicily at 45deg, but when you went on the local weather website it was 33deg.

There is no denying that the MSM are whipping up hysteria around temperatures in Southern Europe and I’d go so far as misleading.

Re: Climate Change
 

A number of weather outlets are reporting temperatures at 40+ for Monday and Tuesday of this week, with it dropping today.

I find it hard to believe they are all wilfully recording inaccurate data.

There was something last week which was misleading where they were reporting ground temperatures. Which unless you’re running a Formula 1 race isn’t meaningful without a reference point, and clearly indicating the air temperature and how they differ.

Re: Climate Change
 

Nudge tactics JF. Scare the populace. Frightened people are easy to manipulate. Authoritarian actions can be taken for your “safety”. Did COVID teach you nothing?

https://www.skygroup.sky/article/beh...by-tv-says-sky

Re: Climate Change
 

Frightened people don’t spend money though, and that’s the only thing keeping the capitalist Ponzi scheme from collapsing.

You could, theoretically, use the same nudge tactics in a well funded conspiracy theory to deny climate change at all. Make people afraid of the creeping authoritarianism of the state. The state is coming for you, your money, your lifestyle etc.

If covid taught us anything it’s that meaningful uniform compliance is difficult to maintain for a prolonged period (more than a year). That was against a backdrop of what was perceived (in March 2020) as a significant, local threat at an individual level. Extreme weather events in other parts of the world are unlikely to make people make substantive lifestyle changes on any meaningful level.

Re: Climate Change
 

Decades of getting the forecast spectacularly wrong, and it’s suddenly evidence of a grand conspiracy?

Re: Climate Change
 

It’s not the forecast though is it. It’s knowingly mis-reporting actual temperatures.

It’s linking unrelated items to climate. The current fires in Greece are due to arson or carelessness. The vegetation is dry at this time of year regardless of it being 34 or 44 degrees, it needs a spark.

Sky surreptitiously linking a car fire to a heat wave, with no evidence, as there wasn’t any.

https://www.naturalnews.com/2023-07-...-car-fire.html

You can shout “conspiracy knob”, no problem. But “nudge” tactics are not a conspiracy. COVID proved that they exist, they are used, and MSM are happy to work with government.

So, if you’re a government(s) that wants to change the habits of your populace to achieve your political aims in regards to climate change, and it worked on COVID, why wouldn’t you employ the same tactics for climate change?

https://newsroom.heart.org/news/risk...unger%20adults.

Great headline, read the study and avg age was 78, 52% of the study were 80+ and male…..and all Chinese, as it was a Chinese study. I would suspect “Heat” not being the main issue here.

Have I got a tin foil hat? No, but it’s bloody well on order.

Re: Climate Change
 

So what’s the political aims?

Re: Climate Change
 

So who to believe? I know, let's ask something accurate, that lives depend on...

Here are the weather records for Catania Airport for the past 5 days:
https://www.aviationweather.gov/meta...ate=&hours=120

Today: 34'C
Yesterday: 45'C
Monday: 44'C
Sunday: 42'C
Saturday: 45'C

Re: Climate Change
 

Airport. Have you got Anything not near jet engines?

---------- Post added at 23:00 ---------- Previous post was at 22:59 ----------

Control. Isn’t that always the aim?

Re: Climate Change
 

Safeguarding the planet's future seems a fair enough aim to me.

It'll fail as this generation is stupid, short sighted and selfish. Always tomorrow's problem, but tomorrow is coming sooner than predicted.

Re: Climate Change
 

Come on now Pierre. I’ve never walked past the wing of a plane and felt heat coming off it as it’s already dissipated into the atmosphere. Are you suggesting they sit the meter so close to a plane they then run for 24 hours a day?

Re: Climate Change
 

The weather station is south of the runway and a strong southerly wind was blowing
https://www.google.com/maps/search/s...!1e3?entry=ttu

I expect you'll be blaming the wildfires for the high temperatures next :D

Re: Climate Change
 

there's a thought :spin:

Re: Climate Change
 

Alarming:

* The heat index (HI) is an index that combines air temperature and relative humidity, in shaded areas, to posit a human-perceived equivalent temperature, as how hot it would feel if the humidity were some other value in the shade. The result is also known as the "felt air temperature," "apparent temperature," "real feel" or "feels like." For example, when the temperature is 32 °C (90 °F) with 70% relative humidity, the heat index is 41 °C (106 °F)

Re: Climate Change
 

I’m by no means a climate sceptic but as a bald statistic this doesn’t mean anything. Neither does the observation that a human couldn’t survive in it for any length of time.

There are plenty of places on earth a human can’t survive without serious technical assistance, either because of extreme heat, cold, altitude or whatever. While I’m content to accept we have a problem, gaining widespread acceptance of that fact requires careful, patient and well-explained and properly contextualised statistics. Sharing headline figures in isolation makes the error of confusing weather with climate; this in turn gives sceptics an ‘out’ (because it’s easy to select some other weather and use it to make a counterfactual argument).

Re: Climate Change
 

I think the issue being tracked here, and I do take your point on isolated data points, is the incremental increase over recent time of temperatures in places like Iran.

If I have time, I will try and find some trend data to illuminate this.

Re: Climate Change
 

I wouldn't bother. Those that refuse to accept the reality of the situation will never be convinced, even when the sea water comes through their front door.

Re: Climate Change
 

Do bother though - we have to keep trying because the consensus right now is that even at this stage the worst effects are avoidable and the damage is reversible, even if not in our lifetimes.

Re: Climate Change
 

Hopefully, and we should try, but I fear it may be too little, too late.

Re: Climate Change
 

Is that the wrong consensus?

I don’t things are reversible, because I think we are riding in a much larger roller coaster, over which we have little leverage.

But I also believe, that we can manage these changes. We can move to a greener economy and world but this will not be achieved by dictat or force, but by making it the best economical choice and greener choice as a package.

Re: Climate Change
 

I found this site that seems to be reasonable in its presentation & interpretation of the trend data:

https://www.worlddata.info/global-warming.php

Re: Climate Change
 

Re: Climate Change
 

Damien already rebutted those...

Re: Climate Change
 

Re: Climate Change
 

You haven't rebutted them. You just keep ignoring that those increases happened much much slower

Just to highlight that the notion we've brought it '150 years sooner' is nonsense. They don't timestamp geological changes so precisely, the scale on that chart can't show '100 years'. When we talk of geological eras we're talking about timespans that last longer than our civilisations. The last warming period lasted longer than any human history you've read about. The entire history of human civilisation has been faster than the last warming period. It's not something that was 'brought forward 150 years'.